Author Topic: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX  (Read 29499 times)

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Offline iri

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #100 on: Fri, 08 April 2016, 05:51:07 »
My Apple laptop runs vm's with Linux pretty well. Also, it runs native Linux. Also, native Mac Os.

So my advice is to buy whichever hardware is better and has better deal.

Thanks! Yeah... I'll try vms for now. Time to see if I could make the switch for realz.
Things you need to know if you decide to buy a Macbook:

1) Retina support is not perfect in Linux. Cinnamon supports it natively, but some programs, that you may run inside it, don't. This problem can be solved running Linux in a VM instead of natively.

2) Just a reminder that Apple keyboards are ****.
(...)Whereas back then I wrote about the tyranny of the majority, today I'd combine that with the tyranny of the minorities. These days, you have to be careful of both. They both want to control you. The first group, by making you do the same thing over and over again. The second group is indicated by the letters I get from the Vassar girls who want me to put more women's lib in The Martian Chronicles, or from blacks who want more black people in Dandelion Wine.
I say to both bunches, Whether you're a majority or minority, bug off! To hell with anybody who wants to tell me what to write. Their society breaks down into subsections of minorities who then, in effect, burn books by banning them. All this political correctness that's rampant on campuses is b.s.

-Ray Bradbury

Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #101 on: Fri, 08 April 2016, 05:52:14 »
You don't have to keep buying Apple gear, unless you need something only available in the latest model.

My Mac is 6+ years old and still running fine (albeit a little slowly).  I have no immediate need to update.

Do you have el capitan running on it?

No, only Mavericks.  All the apps I need run under Mavericks.

I've switched to el capitan in December 2015. I regret it every day... it is SO slow, especially I-O like file transfers and downloading. And multi-tasking. It is like vista. Under Mavericks, everything was good with my late 2010 mbp. My battery life has also gone down from mavericks to el capitan. Or "El Crapitan" as I like to call it.

But safari is much better on el capitan, I must admit that. The "dumbing down" of other apps like "Photos" is horrible though.
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Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #102 on: Fri, 08 April 2016, 05:54:40 »
My Apple laptop runs vm's with Linux pretty well. Also, it runs native Linux. Also, native Mac Os.

So my advice is to buy whichever hardware is better and has better deal.

Thanks! Yeah... I'll try vms for now. Time to see if I could make the switch for realz.
Things you need to know if you decide to buy a Macbook:

1) Retina support is not perfect in Linux. Cinnamon supports it natively, but some programs, that you may run inside it, don't. This problem can be solved running Linux in a VM instead of natively.

2) Just a reminder that Apple keyboards are ****.

1) Thanks! That's good to know.

2) What Macbook do you have that you hate the keyboard? Of course nothing is a substitute for Topre (YMMV, no flame intended), but I must say that I really do like the keyboards in the macbook pro and the retina macbook pro. I like the keyboard in the macbook air less and the new über-thin macbook is just a joke. That keyboards... well.. it looks like a keyboard but there the resemblance with a keyboard ends. It is horrible to type on.
MJT2 Browns o-rings - HHKB White - ES-87 Smoke White Clears - 87UB 55g

Offline iri

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #103 on: Fri, 08 April 2016, 05:56:34 »
You don't have to keep buying Apple gear, unless you need something only available in the latest model.

My Mac is 6+ years old and still running fine (albeit a little slowly).  I have no immediate need to update.

Do you have el capitan running on it?

No, only Mavericks.  All the apps I need run under Mavericks.

I've switched to el capitan in December 2015. I regret it every day... it is SO slow, especially I-O like file transfers and downloading. And multi-tasking. It is like vista. Under Mavericks, everything was good with my late 2010 mbp. My battery life has also gone down from mavericks to el capitan. Or "El Crapitan" as I like to call it.

But safari is much better on el capitan, I must admit that. The "dumbing down" of other apps like "Photos" is horrible though.
I read the reviews for El Capitan (that had the spectacular rating of 2.5 on iTunes Store) and decided to stay with Mavericks.
(...)Whereas back then I wrote about the tyranny of the majority, today I'd combine that with the tyranny of the minorities. These days, you have to be careful of both. They both want to control you. The first group, by making you do the same thing over and over again. The second group is indicated by the letters I get from the Vassar girls who want me to put more women's lib in The Martian Chronicles, or from blacks who want more black people in Dandelion Wine.
I say to both bunches, Whether you're a majority or minority, bug off! To hell with anybody who wants to tell me what to write. Their society breaks down into subsections of minorities who then, in effect, burn books by banning them. All this political correctness that's rampant on campuses is b.s.

-Ray Bradbury

Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #104 on: Fri, 08 April 2016, 06:00:36 »
You don't have to keep buying Apple gear, unless you need something only available in the latest model.

My Mac is 6+ years old and still running fine (albeit a little slowly).  I have no immediate need to update.

Do you have el capitan running on it?

No, only Mavericks.  All the apps I need run under Mavericks.

I've switched to el capitan in December 2015. I regret it every day... it is SO slow, especially I-O like file transfers and downloading. And multi-tasking. It is like vista. Under Mavericks, everything was good with my late 2010 mbp. My battery life has also gone down from mavericks to el capitan. Or "El Crapitan" as I like to call it.

But safari is much better on el capitan, I must admit that. The "dumbing down" of other apps like "Photos" is horrible though.
I read the reviews for El Capitan (that had the spectacular rating of 2.5 on iTunes Store) and decided to stay with Mavericks.

You are wise. You are right. I'd suggest to hold on to Mavericks for as long as you can. The only good thing about el capitan is the new safari. That's about IT.
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Offline iri

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #105 on: Fri, 08 April 2016, 06:02:25 »
And I don't use this holey **** anyway.
(...)Whereas back then I wrote about the tyranny of the majority, today I'd combine that with the tyranny of the minorities. These days, you have to be careful of both. They both want to control you. The first group, by making you do the same thing over and over again. The second group is indicated by the letters I get from the Vassar girls who want me to put more women's lib in The Martian Chronicles, or from blacks who want more black people in Dandelion Wine.
I say to both bunches, Whether you're a majority or minority, bug off! To hell with anybody who wants to tell me what to write. Their society breaks down into subsections of minorities who then, in effect, burn books by banning them. All this political correctness that's rampant on campuses is b.s.

-Ray Bradbury

Offline rowdy

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #106 on: Fri, 08 April 2016, 06:16:43 »
You don't have to keep buying Apple gear, unless you need something only available in the latest model.

My Mac is 6+ years old and still running fine (albeit a little slowly).  I have no immediate need to update.

Do you have el capitan running on it?

No, only Mavericks.  All the apps I need run under Mavericks.

I've switched to el capitan in December 2015. I regret it every day... it is SO slow, especially I-O like file transfers and downloading. And multi-tasking. It is like vista. Under Mavericks, everything was good with my late 2010 mbp. My battery life has also gone down from mavericks to el capitan. Or "El Crapitan" as I like to call it.

But safari is much better on el capitan, I must admit that. The "dumbing down" of other apps like "Photos" is horrible though.

I read the reviews and performance comparisons and decided to upgrade from Snow Leopard to Mavericks and no further.

Some things are slower than before - I blame the compressed memory feature.  But I haven't been bothered enough to disable it yet.
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

NEC APC-H4100E | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED red | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED green | Link 900243-08 | CM QFR MX black | KeyCool 87 white MX reds | HHKB 2 Pro | Model M 02-Mar-1993 | Model M 29-Nov-1995 | CM Trigger (broken) | CM QFS MX green | Ducky DK9087 Shine 3 TKL Yellow Edition MX black | Lexmark SSK 21-Apr-1994 | IBM SSK 13-Oct-1987 | CODE TKL MX clear | Model M 122 01-Jun-1988

Ị̸͚̯̲́ͤ̃͑̇̑ͯ̊̂͟ͅs̞͚̩͉̝̪̲͗͊ͪ̽̚̚ ̭̦͖͕̑́͌ͬͩ͟t̷̻͔̙̑͟h̹̠̼͋ͤ͋i̤̜̣̦̱̫͈͔̞ͭ͑ͥ̌̔s̬͔͎̍̈ͥͫ̐̾ͣ̔̇͘ͅ ̩̘̼͆̐̕e̞̰͓̲̺̎͐̏ͬ̓̅̾͠͝ͅv̶̰͕̱̞̥̍ͣ̄̕e͕͙͖̬̜͓͎̤̊ͭ͐͝ṇ̰͎̱̤̟̭ͫ͌̌͢͠ͅ ̳̥̦ͮ̐ͤ̎̊ͣ͡͡n̤̜̙̺̪̒͜e̶̻̦̿ͮ̂̀c̝̘̝͖̠̖͐ͨͪ̈̐͌ͩ̀e̷̥͇̋ͦs̢̡̤ͤͤͯ͜s͈̠̉̑͘a̱͕̗͖̳̥̺ͬͦͧ͆̌̑͡r̶̟̖̈͘ỷ̮̦̩͙͔ͫ̾ͬ̔ͬͮ̌?̵̘͇͔͙ͥͪ͞ͅ

Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #107 on: Fri, 08 April 2016, 06:17:52 »
You don't have to keep buying Apple gear, unless you need something only available in the latest model.

My Mac is 6+ years old and still running fine (albeit a little slowly).  I have no immediate need to update.

Do you have el capitan running on it?

No, only Mavericks.  All the apps I need run under Mavericks.

I've switched to el capitan in December 2015. I regret it every day... it is SO slow, especially I-O like file transfers and downloading. And multi-tasking. It is like vista. Under Mavericks, everything was good with my late 2010 mbp. My battery life has also gone down from mavericks to el capitan. Or "El Crapitan" as I like to call it.

But safari is much better on el capitan, I must admit that. The "dumbing down" of other apps like "Photos" is horrible though.

I read the reviews and performance comparisons and decided to upgrade from Snow Leopard to Mavericks and no further.

Some things are slower than before - I blame the compressed memory feature.  But I haven't been bothered enough to disable it yet.

So Mavericks is it then? What'll you do after Mavericks? Go to Windows or Linux?
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Offline rowdy

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #108 on: Fri, 08 April 2016, 06:20:12 »
You don't have to keep buying Apple gear, unless you need something only available in the latest model.

My Mac is 6+ years old and still running fine (albeit a little slowly).  I have no immediate need to update.

Do you have el capitan running on it?

No, only Mavericks.  All the apps I need run under Mavericks.

I've switched to el capitan in December 2015. I regret it every day... it is SO slow, especially I-O like file transfers and downloading. And multi-tasking. It is like vista. Under Mavericks, everything was good with my late 2010 mbp. My battery life has also gone down from mavericks to el capitan. Or "El Crapitan" as I like to call it.

But safari is much better on el capitan, I must admit that. The "dumbing down" of other apps like "Photos" is horrible though.

I read the reviews and performance comparisons and decided to upgrade from Snow Leopard to Mavericks and no further.

Some things are slower than before - I blame the compressed memory feature.  But I haven't been bothered enough to disable it yet.

So Mavericks is it then? What'll you do after Mavericks? Go to Windows or Linux?

Upgrade the hardware.  TBH this one is getting a bit long in the tooth (it's a late 2009 Mac mini), but still works.

Reboot once a month or so to install updates, rock solid otherwise and has been that way since the day I got it!
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

NEC APC-H4100E | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED red | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED green | Link 900243-08 | CM QFR MX black | KeyCool 87 white MX reds | HHKB 2 Pro | Model M 02-Mar-1993 | Model M 29-Nov-1995 | CM Trigger (broken) | CM QFS MX green | Ducky DK9087 Shine 3 TKL Yellow Edition MX black | Lexmark SSK 21-Apr-1994 | IBM SSK 13-Oct-1987 | CODE TKL MX clear | Model M 122 01-Jun-1988

Ị̸͚̯̲́ͤ̃͑̇̑ͯ̊̂͟ͅs̞͚̩͉̝̪̲͗͊ͪ̽̚̚ ̭̦͖͕̑́͌ͬͩ͟t̷̻͔̙̑͟h̹̠̼͋ͤ͋i̤̜̣̦̱̫͈͔̞ͭ͑ͥ̌̔s̬͔͎̍̈ͥͫ̐̾ͣ̔̇͘ͅ ̩̘̼͆̐̕e̞̰͓̲̺̎͐̏ͬ̓̅̾͠͝ͅv̶̰͕̱̞̥̍ͣ̄̕e͕͙͖̬̜͓͎̤̊ͭ͐͝ṇ̰͎̱̤̟̭ͫ͌̌͢͠ͅ ̳̥̦ͮ̐ͤ̎̊ͣ͡͡n̤̜̙̺̪̒͜e̶̻̦̿ͮ̂̀c̝̘̝͖̠̖͐ͨͪ̈̐͌ͩ̀e̷̥͇̋ͦs̢̡̤ͤͤͯ͜s͈̠̉̑͘a̱͕̗͖̳̥̺ͬͦͧ͆̌̑͡r̶̟̖̈͘ỷ̮̦̩͙͔ͫ̾ͬ̔ͬͮ̌?̵̘͇͔͙ͥͪ͞ͅ

Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #109 on: Fri, 08 April 2016, 06:36:36 »
So Mavericks is it then? What'll you do after Mavericks? Go to Windows or Linux?

Upgrade the hardware.  TBH this one is getting a bit long in the tooth (it's a late 2009 Mac mini), but still works.

Reboot once a month or so to install updates, rock solid otherwise and has been that way since the day I got it!

That's why I (used to) stick with Mac... reliable hardware that simply doesn't fail. I have had zero issues with my MBP that is now 5 years and 6 months old. Zero. That's my fear with PC laptops.. good for a year and then these random issues start appearing... fans, battery, trackpad, monitors, hinges, etc.
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Offline davkol

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #110 on: Fri, 08 April 2016, 07:48:37 »
Getting OS X to run on a PC is a bit tricky, and unfortunately updates tend to cause some headaches. There are all kinds of resources out there for "Hackintosh" builds (best to get OSX supported hardware). I have yet to hear of OS X being run in a virtual machine.
Warning: a rant follows.

This annoys me a bit. Apple has always sold personal computers. It doesn't even make sense to make it Apple versus WIntel anymore either, because Apple's hardware has had ordinary x86 (x86-64) architecture for years too.

The whole OS X versus non-Apple hardware boils down to
  • Apple's hardware-software bundling (which is actually technically illegal at least in some countries, but there's little incentive to act on that);
  • Apple OS X' nasty EULA;
  • and consequent lack of hardware support, because who'd work on drivers and what not?

Offline vivalarevolución

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #111 on: Fri, 08 April 2016, 08:01:44 »
That's why I (used to) stick with Mac... reliable hardware that simply doesn't fail. I have had zero issues with my MBP that is now 5 years and 6 months old. Zero. That's my fear with PC laptops.. good for a year and then these random issues start appearing... fans, battery, trackpad, monitors, hinges, etc.

Yea, I just went laptop shopping and it seems most any PC laptops is going to have some kind of issue.  It's hard to make the perfect device.  I also question whether the PC makers are producing anything that is built and thoroughly tested for longetivity.  All that said, some of these PC laptops have phenomenal features these days, like the tiny size of Dell XPS and the giant trackpad  HP Spectre 360 trackpad.  And with the exception of the Uber thin "ultrabooks", you can still swap out memory and storage in many PC laptops, unlike nearly all Apple devices now.

Of course with Apple, you can have the piece of mind with the better reliability and quality of their devices.

All that said, I went with the Dell Chromebook 13 because I didn't feel like investing a great amount in a PC laptop or Mac that I would mostly use for browsing the internet, media consumption, programming keyboards, and some light office suite work.  I am happy with my choice so far and I can use a few flavors of Linux on it for more robust tasks than Chrome OS is capable of doing, like programming keyboards.
« Last Edit: Fri, 08 April 2016, 11:03:19 by vivalarevolución »
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Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #112 on: Fri, 08 April 2016, 08:03:29 »
Getting OS X to run on a PC is a bit tricky, and unfortunately updates tend to cause some headaches. There are all kinds of resources out there for "Hackintosh" builds (best to get OSX supported hardware). I have yet to hear of OS X being run in a virtual machine.
Warning: a rant follows.

This annoys me a bit. Apple has always sold personal computers. It doesn't even make sense to make it Apple versus WIntel anymore either, because Apple's hardware has had ordinary x86 (x86-64) architecture for years too.

The whole OS X versus non-Apple hardware boils down to
  • Apple's hardware-software bundling (which is actually technically illegal at least in some countries, but there's little incentive to act on that);
  • Apple OS X' nasty EULA;
  • and consequent lack of hardware support, because who'd work on drivers and what not?

I get what you're saying (I guess), but for me Apple vs. Non-Apple boils down to:

Apple:
  • Great and durable hardware but..
  • very pricey for what you get
  • no compromise: sturdy body + great battery life + great screen + great hinge + great thermal design
  • Downside #1: vendor/eco-system lock-in: do you want that?
  • Downside #2: the direction Apple is going, less productivity and hardcore focused, more focused towards casual user a.k.a. MacBook.
  • Downside #3: connectivity perhaps, depending on the update of the retina macbook pro

Non-Apple:
  • Choice of hardware
  • Choice of OS, linux mainly.
  • Cheaper to run or obtain similar performance in key areas that matter (e.g., memory or processing power or raw disk I-O)
  • Downside #1: not so reliable laptops: paint coming off, weak cases, crappy screens (comparatively), etc.
  • Downside #2: Windows: Spying OS Pro (although YMMV)
  • Downside #3: Ugly PC laptops (personal taste, of course)
  • Downside #4: Arguably, maintaining linux is more work then a Mac. Homebrew aside (which I haven't had issues with personally, not real issues like package conflicts or breaks, but people seem to have different results)
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Offline davkol

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #113 on: Fri, 08 April 2016, 08:14:01 »
Some random remarks:

Apple isn't the only company making ultrabooks or high-end laptops in general. Leslieann has had some neat posts about that (w/ Sony Vaio praise IIRC).
Apple isn't the only company with good support. AFAIK you can get, e.g., excellent extended support from IBM with Lenovo ThinkPads.
There are also cases of great third-party support, but not cheap. For example, I've heard good things about Emperor Linux.
GNU/Linux support on macbooks is far from great. In fact, Apple apparently breaks things on purpose, which is a bit reminiscent of the Alternative OS on PS3 fiasco. Specifically, I hear that OS X has been recently updated so that mb's video output doesn't work in GNU/Linux anymore.

Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #114 on: Fri, 08 April 2016, 08:14:54 »
Some random remarks:

Apple isn't the only company making ultrabooks or high-end laptops in general. Leslieann has had some neat posts about that (w/ Sony Vaio praise IIRC).
Apple isn't the only company with good support. AFAIK you can get, e.g., excellent extended support from IBM with Lenovo ThinkPads.
GNU/Linux support on macbooks is far from great. In fact, Apple apparently breaks things on purpose, which is a bit reminiscent of the Alternative OS on PS3 fiasco. Specifically, I hear that OS X has been recently updated so that mb's video output doesn't work in GNU/Linux anymore.
There are also cases of great third-party support, but not cheap. For example, I've heard good things about Emperor Linux.

Thanks for the info. But didn't sony put vaio laptops out of business?
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Offline davkol

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #115 on: Fri, 08 April 2016, 08:16:56 »
Yeah, they did.

Offline davkol

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #116 on: Fri, 08 April 2016, 08:29:12 »
On a different note, have you considered going with server hardware + a laptop as a thick client? Interactive data analysis (e.g., w/ Python + NumPy/SciPy and IPython) is often done like this.

Offline iri

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #117 on: Fri, 08 April 2016, 08:40:40 »
Linux runs perfectly on my '13 15" Pro with the exception that the web cam doesn't work. Not really a drawback, since I don't need the webcam cover  :p
(...)Whereas back then I wrote about the tyranny of the majority, today I'd combine that with the tyranny of the minorities. These days, you have to be careful of both. They both want to control you. The first group, by making you do the same thing over and over again. The second group is indicated by the letters I get from the Vassar girls who want me to put more women's lib in The Martian Chronicles, or from blacks who want more black people in Dandelion Wine.
I say to both bunches, Whether you're a majority or minority, bug off! To hell with anybody who wants to tell me what to write. Their society breaks down into subsections of minorities who then, in effect, burn books by banning them. All this political correctness that's rampant on campuses is b.s.

-Ray Bradbury

Offline S1llyC0ne

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #118 on: Fri, 08 April 2016, 08:46:47 »
Vaio is Chinese-owned by now

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Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #119 on: Fri, 08 April 2016, 09:11:05 »
On a different note, have you considered going with server hardware + a laptop as a thick client? Interactive data analysis (e.g., w/ Python + NumPy/SciPy and IPython) is often done like this.

So basically you have a server with the raw computing power on which you run the actual computations and use a less powerful client with a nice UI?
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Offline davkol

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #120 on: Fri, 08 April 2016, 09:17:13 »
Yup. You can't get 64GB RAM in a macbook anyway.

If you're on campus, connectivity shouldn't be a problem either, but maybe it's worse elsewhere.

Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #121 on: Fri, 08 April 2016, 09:54:22 »
True, great idea. I do hope though that the new retina macbook pro will allow for 64GB of ram. That would be awesome.
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Offline S1llyC0ne

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #122 on: Fri, 08 April 2016, 11:41:59 »
True, great idea. I do hope though that the new retina macbook pro will allow for 64GB of ram. That would be awesome.
Don't even dream about it ;-)

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Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #123 on: Fri, 08 April 2016, 11:53:11 »
True, great idea. I do hope though that the new retina macbook pro will allow for 64GB of ram. That would be awesome.
Don't even dream about it ;-)

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Well... I'll most certainly couldn't afford it. If a 1TB upgrade comes in at around 500 dollars extra, from 16gb to 64gb will cost 1000 dollars extra.
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #124 on: Fri, 08 April 2016, 15:28:39 »
Apple's hardware-software bundling (which is actually technically illegal at least in some countries, but there's little incentive to act on that); Apple OS X' nasty EULA;
Can you list these countries, and explain exactly what is illegal?

Which part of their EULA do you think is nasty?

Specifically, I hear that OS X has been recently updated so that mb's video output doesn't work in GNU/Linux anymore.
Are you saying that old hardware that used to work fine with Linux has been broken by an OS X update? That sounds implausible, can you link to a source, or elaborate a bit?

very pricey for what you get
I think this is an unfair summary. The prices have generally been comparable (I’d estimate 90–120% of the price, depending on what time you make the comparison) to similarly specced and equally solidly built machines from other vendors. They just don’t bother competing at the cutthroat low end, where most other laptop sales happen.

Retina support is not perfect in Linux. Cinnamon supports it natively, but some programs, that you may run inside it, don't. This problem can be solved running Linux in a VM instead of natively.
It’s pretty unfortunate that many Linux and Windows apps still don’t handle high-resolution displays very well.

Apple had a big advantage in controlling both hardware and software, so that they could jump directly to 2x resolution. They actually experimented for several years with more arbitrary UI resizing, and found that it didn’t work very well w/r/t backwards compatibility with old software. The jump to 2x by 2x resolution, once high-enough display panels could be found and once GPUs were powerful enough to support it within the available thermal envelope was a pretty brilliant hack, in my opinion, which has worked out really well. After a few years of using a ~200 PPI display, going back to ~100–150 PPI is like wearing glasses smeared with vaseline.

Other software platforms were stuck trying to interoperate with whatever arbitrary displays dozens of different OEMs decided to use, which meant that display resolution was all over the map, and a simple doubling strategy was impossible. Both Windows and Linux have tried to add support for arbitrary UI resizing, but it isn’t supported by all application software and hits lots of weird buggy edge cases. IMO poor high-resolution display support is one of the biggest problems still with devices like MS Surface tablets.

Just a reminder that Apple keyboards are ****.
Compared to what? This is a keyboard forum, so I’m sure everyone has obscure preferences, but in my opinion all the scissor-switch boards are pretty terrible, and Apple’s are among the least ****ty of the bunch. If you need a better typing experience, get an external keyboard and call it a day.

The only real way out is to use something dramatically thicker, like low-profile Topre or similar. Nobody making reasonably portable laptops is willing to spend that much space on the keyboard though.

I went into a “Microsoft Store” a few months ago, and tried every keyboard there. There wasn’t anything that I particularly enjoyed typing on. Most of them were incredibly unpleasant. I was reasonably impressed with the MS Surface “type cover”, for being less ****ty than I expected given its extreme thinness, but I still wouldn’t want to type on it for any extended amount of time. HP, Toshiba, Dell, Acer, Asus, Lenovo, Sony, etc. have keyboards which range from roughly-comparable-to-Macbook-Pro down to worthless trash.

(I think the 12" Macbook has a very unpleasant keyboard, certainly worse than previous Apple laptops. Only worthwhile if extreme portability is more important than typing.)

I read the reviews for El Capitan (that had the spectacular rating of 2.5 on iTunes Store) and decided to stay with Mavericks.

I have one machine on 10.9 (Mavericks), and one machine on 10.11 (El Capitan), and I think both are fine. The main OS version to avoid was 10.10 (Yosemite), which switched to Helvetica as a UI typeface (barf) and had all kinds of network problems caused by a poorly implemented new DNS daemon.

10.11 fixed a pile of bugs, and I haven’t heard many complaints about the recent point releases. (As always, wait for version 10.x.3 or 10.x.4 before upgrading; the first few point releases always hit weird issues.)

You can’t trust aggregated review score for this kind of thing, the only people who are going to bother writing a review of an OS update are folks who have had some problem, and a non-negligible proportion of the problems have nothing to do with the OS update per se. (E.g. hardware issues, dodgy third-party device drivers, ...)
« Last Edit: Fri, 08 April 2016, 15:41:23 by jacobolus »

Offline davkol

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #125 on: Fri, 08 April 2016, 16:22:15 »
Apple's hardware-software bundling (which is actually technically illegal at least in some countries, but there's little incentive to act on that); Apple OS X' nasty EULA;
Can you list these countries, and explain exactly what is illegal?
Product tying. You should be able to return, for instance, unused bundled MS Windows licenses, if you disagree with the EULA, in most European countries. The same applies to Apple, but good luck with that in practice; even majority of MS-friendly vendors straight up refuse to accept license returns in some markets (e.g., Czech).

Which part of their EULA do you think is nasty?
A better question would be what isn't nasty in there? Well, I can't think of anything. Anyway, apart from the usual stuff, my favorite part of OS X 10.11 EULA is that you can have up to one system backup.

Specifically, I hear that OS X has been recently updated so that mb's video output doesn't work in GNU/Linux anymore.
Are you saying that old hardware that used to work fine with Linux has been broken by an OS X update? That sounds implausible, can you link to a source, or elaborate a bit?
I've seen it irl, but don't have a link to a website. It had something to do with the way the OS disabled the output after cable was disconnected.

Issues like this surprisingly aren't all that uncommon (for example, volume controls for digital output on some Asus Xonar sound cards).

Offline S1llyC0ne

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #126 on: Fri, 08 April 2016, 16:43:58 »


Apple's hardware-software bundling (which is actually technically illegal at least in some countries, but there's little incentive to act on that); Apple OS X' nasty EULA;
Can you list these countries, and explain exactly what is illegal?
Product tying. You should be able to return, for instance, unused bundled MS Windows licenses, if you disagree with the EULA, in most European countries. The same applies to Apple, but good luck with that in practice; even majority of MS-friendly vendors straight up refuse to accept license returns in some markets (e.g., Czech).
I don't think there is product tying with Apple as hardware and software are both produced by Apple.
There are no Microsoft computers besides Surface models and this is why the customers should be able to be offered other operating systems on Windows-compatible laptops.


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Offline iri

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #127 on: Fri, 08 April 2016, 16:54:34 »
Compared to what?
Compared to my cheap HP laptop for example.
(...)Whereas back then I wrote about the tyranny of the majority, today I'd combine that with the tyranny of the minorities. These days, you have to be careful of both. They both want to control you. The first group, by making you do the same thing over and over again. The second group is indicated by the letters I get from the Vassar girls who want me to put more women's lib in The Martian Chronicles, or from blacks who want more black people in Dandelion Wine.
I say to both bunches, Whether you're a majority or minority, bug off! To hell with anybody who wants to tell me what to write. Their society breaks down into subsections of minorities who then, in effect, burn books by banning them. All this political correctness that's rampant on campuses is b.s.

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Offline davkol

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #128 on: Fri, 08 April 2016, 17:01:32 »


Apple's hardware-software bundling (which is actually technically illegal at least in some countries, but there's little incentive to act on that); Apple OS X' nasty EULA;
Can you list these countries, and explain exactly what is illegal?
Product tying. You should be able to return, for instance, unused bundled MS Windows licenses, if you disagree with the EULA, in most European countries. The same applies to Apple, but good luck with that in practice; even majority of MS-friendly vendors straight up refuse to accept license returns in some markets (e.g., Czech).
I don't think there is product tying with Apple as hardware and software are both produced by Apple.
There are no Microsoft computers besides Surface models and this is why the customers should be able to be offered other operating systems on Windows-compatible laptops.
MS Windows/Explorer was a case of product tying.

The hardware is an universal computer, and it may run any software as such, thus a specific piece of software shouldn't be shoved down the user's throat.

Offline Liocer

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #129 on: Fri, 08 April 2016, 17:05:34 »
Hackintosh, I did and I'm happy :), also learn VIM then it doesn't matter what OS you're working on everything is great :P

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #130 on: Fri, 08 April 2016, 17:07:46 »
Apple's hardware-software bundling (which is actually technically illegal at least in some countries, but there's little incentive to act on that); Apple OS X' nasty EULA;
Can you list these countries, and explain exactly what is illegal?
Product tying. You should be able to return, for instance, unused bundled MS Windows licenses, if you disagree with the EULA, in most European countries. The same applies to Apple, but good luck with that in practice; even majority of MS-friendly vendors straight up refuse to accept license returns in some markets (e.g., Czech).
This is a pretty wishy-washy explanation.

Do you have some link to a considered analysis written by an expert in European anti-trust law?

I can’t find anything even remotely relevant in a web search.

Quote
A better question would be what isn't nasty in there? Well, I can't think of anything. Anyway, apart from the usual stuff, my favorite part of OS X 10.11 EULA is that you can have up to one system backup.
More precisely, you can have one backup of the OS X software. Doesn’t say anything about the rest of your system. Presumably this is to work around some kind of loophole where someone starts selling copies of OS X on pirate DVDs.

Though it’s a little silly, considering they have made recent versions a free upgrade, and you’re only allowed by the EULA to use OS X on Apple hardware.

Perhaps there are some other licensing restrictions in other software they bundle which require this type of term, and it’s easier to apply a blanket rule than try to separately list out every exceptional file that someone isn’t supposed to copy for some obscure legal reason.

In any event, I’d say this is an entirely unenforceable provision given regular usage. I can’t imagine anyone ever being sued for having too many backups.

Offline S1llyC0ne

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #131 on: Fri, 08 April 2016, 17:09:26 »
Apple is arguably selling an experience as they design both hardware and software. They can't be forced to offer other operating systems on their products unlike Asus, HP, Lenovo and others.
And I am as far as one could be from being an Apple-maniac.

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Offline jacobolus

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #132 on: Fri, 08 April 2016, 17:09:45 »
Just a reminder that Apple keyboards are ****.
Compared to what?
Compared to my cheap HP laptop for example.
We’re going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I’ve tried at least 10 different types of cheap HP laptop keyboards over the years, and every one was utter garbage.

Offline S1llyC0ne

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #133 on: Fri, 08 April 2016, 17:13:13 »
Jacobulus: Isn't it pretentious. from Apple to remove the Del key of a laptop keyboard ?


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Offline jacobolus

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #134 on: Fri, 08 April 2016, 17:15:10 »
The “del” key? You mean, forward delete, ⌦?

You can do ⌦ on any Apple laptop using either fn + ⌫ or control + D. Or you can reassign some arbitrary other key or key combination to do it.

Offline iri

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #135 on: Fri, 08 April 2016, 17:15:20 »
Just a reminder that Apple keyboards are ****.
Compared to what?
Compared to my cheap HP laptop for example.
We’re going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I’ve tried at least 10 different types of cheap HP laptop keyboards over the years, and every one was utter garbage.
Yeah, the keyboard on that HP is quite crappy, but still much better than this slippery **** with 1 mm travel and retarded layout.
(...)Whereas back then I wrote about the tyranny of the majority, today I'd combine that with the tyranny of the minorities. These days, you have to be careful of both. They both want to control you. The first group, by making you do the same thing over and over again. The second group is indicated by the letters I get from the Vassar girls who want me to put more women's lib in The Martian Chronicles, or from blacks who want more black people in Dandelion Wine.
I say to both bunches, Whether you're a majority or minority, bug off! To hell with anybody who wants to tell me what to write. Their society breaks down into subsections of minorities who then, in effect, burn books by banning them. All this political correctness that's rampant on campuses is b.s.

-Ray Bradbury

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #136 on: Fri, 08 April 2016, 17:17:24 »
Yeah, the keyboard on that HP is quite crappy, but still much better than this slippery **** with 1 mm travel and retarded layout.
Which Apple keyboard are we talking about? As I said, I think the 12" Macbook has switches without enough travel. I also don’t particularly like the Macbook Air keyboards. The Macbook Pro is still okay by laptop keyboard standards, and I (sadly) haven’t tried any modern laptop by anyone else with a better keyboard (unless you consider those monstrosities with low-resolution 17" displays and built-in Cherry MX keyboards to be “laptops”). The Apple laptop keyboards from ~2003 were marginally better in my opinion, but they’ve slimmed the keyboard down slightly since then.

As for layout, standard IBM-style QWERTY layout is universally garbage, and Apple’s version is no better or worse than anyone else’s. There has never been a computer sold with a remotely reasonable keyboard layout.

To start with, any keyboard which includes caps lock in a prominent position, relegates the backwards delete and escape keys to unreachable positions in the top corners, and only has 1 key in the combined primary range of both thumbs was designed by an idiot. (Or to be specific, was designed by a few different idiots 30–100 years ago, and then slavishly copied by generations of unimaginative cowards.)

Trivial choices like giving ⇟ a discrete button vs. using fn + ↓ for it aren’t worth arguing about, in the face of the century-out-of-date core concept behind all of these keyboards.

The only way to get a well designed portable keyboard is to build it yourself.
« Last Edit: Fri, 08 April 2016, 17:36:56 by jacobolus »

Offline iri

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #137 on: Fri, 08 April 2016, 17:46:04 »
Yeah, the keyboard on that HP is quite crappy, but still much better than this slippery **** with 1 mm travel and retarded layout.
Which Apple keyboard are we talking about? As I said, I think the 12" Macbook has switches without enough travel. I also don’t particularly like the Macbook Air keyboards. The Macbook Pro is still okay by laptop keyboard standards, and I (sadly) haven’t tried any modern laptop by anyone else with a better keyboard (unless you consider those monstrosities with low-resolution 17" displays and built-in Cherry MX keyboards to be “laptops”). The Apple laptop keyboards from ~2003 were marginally better in my opinion, but they’ve slimmed the keyboard down slightly since then.

As for layout, standard IBM-style QWERTY layout is universally garbage, and Apple’s version is no better or worse than anyone else’s. There has never been a computer sold with a remotely reasonable keyboard layout.

To start with, any keyboard which includes caps lock in a prominent position, relegates the backwards delete and escape keys to unreachable positions in the top corners, and only has 1 key in the combined primary range of both thumbs was designed by an idiot. (Or to be specific, was designed by a few different idiots 30–100 years ago, and then slavishly copied by generations of unimaginative cowards.)

Trivial choices like giving ⇟ a discrete button vs. using fn + ↓ for it aren’t worth arguing about, in the face of the century-out-of-date core concept behind all of these keyboards.

The only way to get a well designed portable keyboard is to build it yourself.
My Caps Lock is mapped to Command. System-wide backspace is Cmd-H. System-wide escape is Cmd-[.

Please give examples of "those monstrosities with low-resolution 17" displays and built-in Cherry MX keyboards".
(...)Whereas back then I wrote about the tyranny of the majority, today I'd combine that with the tyranny of the minorities. These days, you have to be careful of both. They both want to control you. The first group, by making you do the same thing over and over again. The second group is indicated by the letters I get from the Vassar girls who want me to put more women's lib in The Martian Chronicles, or from blacks who want more black people in Dandelion Wine.
I say to both bunches, Whether you're a majority or minority, bug off! To hell with anybody who wants to tell me what to write. Their society breaks down into subsections of minorities who then, in effect, burn books by banning them. All this political correctness that's rampant on campuses is b.s.

-Ray Bradbury

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #138 on: Fri, 08 April 2016, 18:11:07 »
Excuse me, low resolution (120 ppi) 18.4" display: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834152706
I think they had a 17" version as well, but I don’t have a model number for you. Either way, while I grant that Cherry MX is nicer to type on than scissor switches, I wouldn’t call these “laptops”.

Quote
My Caps Lock is mapped to Command. System-wide backspace is Cmd-H. System-wide escape is Cmd-[.
You overloaded the shortcuts for hiding the current app and navigating through history (or cycling tabs, or adjusting the text indent, depending on the app)?

Anyway, sure, you can hack together a not-quite-as-bad logical layout within the constraints of existing physical keyboard layouts. I make extensive changes like this. It’s pretty suboptimal though.
« Last Edit: Fri, 08 April 2016, 18:21:04 by jacobolus »

Offline iri

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #139 on: Fri, 08 April 2016, 18:36:54 »
Excuse me, low resolution (120 ppi) 18.4" display: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834152706
I think they had a 17" version as well, but I don’t have a model number for you. Either way, while I grant that Cherry MX is nicer to type on than scissor switches, I wouldn’t call these “laptops”.
Nah, 120dpi and MX Browns... Not my cuppa.

Excuse me, low resolution (120 ppi) 18.4" display: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834152706
I think they had a 17" version as well, but I don’t have a model number for you. Either way, while I grant that Cherry MX is nicer to type on than scissor switches, I wouldn’t call these “laptops”.

Quote
My Caps Lock is mapped to Command. System-wide backspace is Cmd-H. System-wide escape is Cmd-[.
You overloaded the shortcuts for hiding the current app and navigating through history (or cycling tabs, or adjusting the text indent, depending on the app)?
I need neither. I switch programs by Tab+j/l and cycle through tabs with Cmd+Shift+j/l.
(...)Whereas back then I wrote about the tyranny of the majority, today I'd combine that with the tyranny of the minorities. These days, you have to be careful of both. They both want to control you. The first group, by making you do the same thing over and over again. The second group is indicated by the letters I get from the Vassar girls who want me to put more women's lib in The Martian Chronicles, or from blacks who want more black people in Dandelion Wine.
I say to both bunches, Whether you're a majority or minority, bug off! To hell with anybody who wants to tell me what to write. Their society breaks down into subsections of minorities who then, in effect, burn books by banning them. All this political correctness that's rampant on campuses is b.s.

-Ray Bradbury

Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #140 on: Fri, 08 April 2016, 18:41:04 »
Hackintosh, I did and I'm happy :), also learn VIM then it doesn't matter what OS you're working on everything is great :P

That's why I stopped caring about OS X not being a tiled window manager and started to rely on tmux and vim in the terminal.
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Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #141 on: Fri, 08 April 2016, 18:43:10 »
Apple is arguably selling an experience as they design both hardware and software. They can't be forced to offer other operating systems on their products unlike Asus, HP, Lenovo and others.
And I am as far as one could be from being an Apple-maniac.

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Well... I may be wrong on this one, but isn't it the case once vendors are into the MS OEM program, the terms preclude / disallow them from installing anything else than Windows on their machines?

Isn't that also what the UEFI story was about a while back?
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Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #142 on: Fri, 08 April 2016, 18:45:46 »
Just a reminder that Apple keyboards are ****.
Compared to what?
Compared to my cheap HP laptop for example.
We’re going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I’ve tried at least 10 different types of cheap HP laptop keyboards over the years, and every one was utter garbage.
Yeah, the keyboard on that HP is quite crappy, but still much better than this slippery **** with 1 mm travel and retarded layout.

I hate about any PC laptop keyboard except for the Thinkpads... IBM or Lenovo (except for the 2011 ones). The new Apple MacBook doesn't have a "keyboard". I refuse calling what they put in there a keyboard. I really do like my 2010 MBP keyboard for a laptop keyboard.
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Offline S1llyC0ne

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #143 on: Sat, 09 April 2016, 02:00:15 »
Apple is arguably selling an experience as they design both hardware and software. They can't be forced to offer other operating systems on their products unlike Asus, HP, Lenovo and others.
And I am as far as one could be from being an Apple-maniac.

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Well... I may be wrong on this one, but isn't it the case once vendors are into the MS OEM program, the terms preclude / disallow them from installing anything else than Windows on their machines?

Isn't that also what the UEFI story was about a while back?
It would be an antitrust case.

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Offline jacobolus

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #144 on: Sat, 09 April 2016, 02:02:27 »
iLLucionist: can you please not use yellow text on this forum? It is completely illegible with some themes.



Ideally you could avoid colored text altogether, but if you absolutely must used colored text, I recommend orange (like this, for example). Also, I recommend not using extremely large text without some very good reason. If you need to add emphasis, try italics (everyone loves italics).
« Last Edit: Sat, 09 April 2016, 02:08:29 by jacobolus »

Offline smknjoe

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #145 on: Sat, 09 April 2016, 02:25:07 »
iLLucionist, from what I gather, you may not be wealthy; but you are not a starving student either. If you want the easiest and most reliable experience possible get a new Macbook and use Fusion to run VMs. There are many other options that will cost less money, but will cost you more time.
SSKs for everyone!

Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #146 on: Sat, 09 April 2016, 06:36:13 »
iLLucionist: can you please not use yellow text on this forum? It is completely illegible with some themes.

Show Image


Ideally you could avoid colored text altogether, but if you absolutely must used colored text, I recommend orange (like this, for example). Also, I recommend not using extremely large text without some very good reason. If you need to add emphasis, try italics (everyone loves italics).

Thanks, sorry! I didn't take that into account.
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Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #147 on: Sat, 09 April 2016, 06:37:50 »
iLLucionist, from what I gather, you may not be wealthy; but you are not a starving student either. If you want the easiest and most reliable experience possible get a new Macbook and use Fusion to run VMs. There are many other options that will cost less money, but will cost you more time.

Thanks for the tip! I have no issue with dropping a large amount of money, but I want to be sure I'm making the right choice. Thing is if I have the money now, I don't have it anymore once I dropped the ball and went all way in. So that's why I'm considering every option.

But I'll wait for wwdc to see what Apple will be doing to the retina macbook pro before I make a definitive switch (or not).
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