Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX

[smknjoe]

The nice thing is you can run it over top of the other two (or even run Windows over Linux).

That's my preferred method. Debian as a host and everything else a guest VM. Although, it's not simple to run OSX as a VM.

[smknjoe]

Don't mind me, and apologies for my harsh opinion. I am very angry working on a Device I totally hate. My mac does lagg.

Agreed, my Mac lags as well now. But I take it is because it is old now. Am I mistaken? From Yosemite onwards the OS feels slow. But I always thought it is my aging Mac.

For work I have a Late? 2015 MBP with a quad core i7, 16gb, and 512 SSD (about $3,000...company laptop.) It's fast enough, but the real bottle neck seems to be the SSD. For home I have a 5 year old laptop i7 quad, 16 gb Ram, and 2 x 512GB SSD in Raid 0 (about $1000 with ~$800 in upgrades.) I get better performance (unless it's processor intensive) with the 5 yr old laptop due to twice the disk I/O.

I run Deb8 as the host OS, and use VMware Workstation to run everything else - including OSX.

[iLLucionist]

Don't mind me, and apologies for my harsh opinion. I am very angry working on a Device I totally hate. My mac does lagg.

Agreed, my Mac lags as well now. But I take it is because it is old now. Am I mistaken? From Yosemite onwards the OS feels slow. But I always thought it is my aging Mac.

For work I have a Late? 2015 MBP with a quad core i7, 16gb, and 512 SSD (about $3,000...company laptop.) It's fast enough, but the real bottle neck seems to be the SSD. For home I have a 5 year old laptop i7 quad, 16 gb Ram, and 2 x 512GB SSD in Raid 0 (about $1000 with ~$800 in upgrades.) I get better performance (unless it's processor intensive) with the 5 yr old laptop due to twice the disk I/O.

I run Deb8 as the host OS, and use VMware Workstation to run everything else - including OSX.

Is it... difficult to have OSX run withing VMware? I mean.. could I build a 2xquad core i7 + 64GB ram + GeForce sick-sicker-sickest and have OSX run more comfortably inside VM on top of linux than on a dedicated new MBP.

Besides.. I-O issues? I thought the PCI-E SSD in the new MBP was faster than Raid 0? Do you have performance stats to compare the two? I would be really interested in that.

I have never thought about running OS X within a VM. That sounds like a really smart idea. At least a way to tame or tailor OS X to my needs.

[smknjoe]

It's not easy to get OSX running, and KEEP it running in VMware on non-Apple hardware. Either OSX updates or VMware updates often break things to where you can't boot it up without some more hackery. If you need OSX either don't install updates if virtualized or just use a Mac.

I don't have stats to back up my performance claims. Just anecdotal evidence. You're right, I should back it up with some real numbers.

[rowdy]

I do find the workflow in OS X struggles for me because the window management never wants to do what I want it to do.

Installing BetterSnapTool helps a lot. Basically I want my windows to occupy the monitor fully, but OS X loves to have small windows floating around. When you want to make it bigger, it goes totally fullscreen in its own desktop which is cumbersome to switch between.

That and for the life of me I don't get why folders aren't at the top in Finder.

Having said all that, I don't like the path Windows is going down one bit right now with its forced updates and such. I question how long until OS X is the same, though, since iOS is already like that.

Linux offers good flexibility and freedom that the others don't seem to offer right now. The nice thing is you can run it over top of the other two (or even run Windows over Linux).

I like OS X window management.  Windows appear the same size and position from when you last closed them.  Compare to Windows where windows are a different position and probably different size each time you open them.  I have muscle memory where certain buttons are in some apps and I position the mouse on that area of the desktop while waiting for the app to open.  Under Windows I have everything full screen ot get around the terrible window placement.  Linux - no idea, there are so many window managers.

Also on the subject of Cmd vs. Ctrl, on the Mac Cmd-C is copy, Cmd-V is paste (for those unfamiliar), in contradistinction to Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V.  However in terminal apps that means you can copy/paste using OS-wide keyboard shortcuts without losing Ctrl-C (break) and Ctrl-V (escape) keyboard functions.  This is fantastic!  On Windows in PuTTY I have to Shift-Ins to paste text in.  Just selecting text copies it to clipboard, which saves time (sometimes).  Don't get me started on copy/paste in Windows command prompt.

[rowdy]

It's not easy to get OSX running, and KEEP it running in VMware on non-Apple hardware. Either OSX updates or VMware updates often break things to where you can't boot it up without some more hackery. If you need OSX either don't install updates if virtualized or just use a Mac.

I don't have stats to back up my performance claims. Just anecdotal evidence. You're right, I should back it up with some real numbers.

And you're not supposed to either

Apple licencing forbids installing OS X on non-Apple hardware.

[jacobolus]

One thing that pisses me off about Mac cmd-backtick / cmd-shift-backtick (for rotating through windows within a particular app) is that they changed the ordering system a few years ago. Previously, they were ordered in chronological order by original creation time. Now they get reordered every time you leave them alone for a little bit, I think by how recently they were looked at (?). This is supposed to make it easier to use cmd-backtick to return to your previous window, but if you have more than 4 or 5 windows open in one app, the result is that you basically can’t ever get to the windows at the back of the queue, because every time you wait for a few seconds they get reshuffled. Additionally, there’s no stable ordering, so it’s impossible to predict which window will come next when you hit cmd-backtick another time. Really frustrating change. The only effective way to navigate in an app with >4 window is to now always use cmd-shift-backtick to go through the windows in "backwards" order, and just shuffle all the way through the whole queue if you want to go the other direction.

[smknjoe]

Apple licencing forbids installing OS X on non-Apple hardware.

No wonder their pesky updates break stuff. 

[vkulla]

I found myself using the same tools for writing research papers under linux as i used in osx.
The most comfortable solution for me is using a linux powered VPS for experiments and whatever OS on the laptop.
But if you have to use commercial software like microsoft office and do experiments on the same machine, than you have to use MacOS or Windows with a linux virtual machine or vice versa. Also Microsoft has now some kind of build in linux support anounced, figured out with canonical.

[jaffers]

Apple updates are intended to break use on non apple hardware, its hardly surprising. But I use pycharm for my IDE and its amazing, I much prefer a nice IDE over a text editor like vi, vim or emacs, but then again, its just like your opinion man

EDIT: I say this because I find that using an IDE is much quicker than using a text editor. More features that speed up productivity. I find that a lot of people I have met in person who use text editors do it because its 1337 and they like to show off how technical they are. But thats just my experience, I just want a fast workflow, don't really care about internet points

[rowdy]

One thing that pisses me off about Mac cmd-backtick / cmd-shift-backtick (for rotating through windows within a particular app) is that they changed the ordering system a few years ago. Previously, they were ordered in chronological order by original creation time. Now they get reordered every time you leave them alone for a little bit, I think by how recently they were looked at (?). This is supposed to make it easier to use cmd-backtick to return to your previous window, but if you have more than 4 or 5 windows open in one app, the result is that you basically can’t ever get to the windows at the back of the queue, because every time you wait for a few seconds they get reshuffled. Additionally, there’s no stable ordering, so it’s impossible to predict which window will come next when you hit cmd-backtick another time. Really frustrating change. The only effective way to navigate in an app with >4 window is to now always use cmd-shift-backtick to go through the windows in "backwards" order, and just shuffle all the way through the whole queue if you want to go the other direction.

I haven't noticed this - the most windows I have open for one app is about 3 (at home - that may change when I start using a Mac at work).

[vivalarevolución]

This thread seems to have plenty of analytical chatter already, but I have a very simple recommendation:  slap some more RAM in there, like jacobolus has mentioned, dual boot your system with a Linux distro of choice, use it for awhile to see how it fits your needs, and then decide from there.  No need to to make the big purchases and life altering OS shift right from the get-go.

I also do not like the direction Apple is going with their non-modular computers that basically force you to max out your specs for a significant price premium.  Then it seems like your device is running slow on the latest Mac OS within a couple years, and you have to do it all over again.  The upside is that Macs have great resale value, and you can sell your current model to pay for a new model.

[S1llyC0ne]

This thread seems to have plenty of analytical chatter already, but I have a very simple recommendation:  slap some more RAM in there, like jacobolus has mentioned, dual boot your system with a Linux distro of choice, use it for awhile to see how it fits your needs, and then decide from there.  No need to to make the big purchases and life altering OS shift right from the get-go.

I also do not like the direction Apple is going with their non-modular computers that basically force you to max out your specs for a significant price premium.  Then it seems like your device is running slow on the latest Mac OS within a couple years, and you have to do it all over again.  The upside is that Macs have great resale value, and you can sell your current model to pay for a new model.

I totally agree with this. And I would also recommend you test a rolling release distribution so you will not have to worry about versioning. Manjaro Linux has been good to me since I started using it two years ago on my trusty old ThinkPad Edge.

[CSCoder4ever]

if I was able to afford it, I'd go the OSX route, but so far the linux route is going well for me.

Although 2 pages in already, I think you already made a decision  )

[vivalarevolución]

Also, I want to note something about this thread.  We are airing quite a few grievances about the pitfalls of various operating systems, and it's easy to focus on the problems.  I've only been involved with open source software for a few months now, but I've learned that writing good software is f-ing hard.  Especially if it is something you do in your free time without pay.  From what I can tell, many of those involved with Apple and Linux are very intelligent, ambituous, hard working individuals.  And if some of the brightest people on this planet are crafting products that still have major flaws, I can only conclude that making great software is far from easy.

So I'm just gonna take a step back and marvel at the fact Mac OS and the flavors of Linux actually exist and function, whereas 35 years ago, neither of them existed.  That's an f-ing achievement of mankind right there.

Enough praise, though, let's get back to identifying and solving problems.

[jacobolus]

I haven't noticed this - the most windows I have open for one app is about 3 (at home - that may change when I start using a Mac at work).

I currently have about 50 windows open in Safari. :-)

[vivalarevolución]

I haven't noticed this - the most windows I have open for one app is about 3 (at home - that may change when I start using a Mac at work).

I currently have about 50 windows open in Safari. :-)

I think the next version of the DSM will have a disorder for excessive open browser tab accumulation or something like that.

Legitimate question: how the hell does your computer even function with that many open tabs?  Do you have like 64GB of RAM or something.

[algernon]

If you like the OSX UI, and your chief complaint is speed and price, I'm afraid you'll have to reach into your pocket deeper, and upgrade the hardware. You're not going to like the Linux landscape.

I say this as someone who used linux since 1996, exclusively (except for gaming), both at home, and at work, for coding and everything else I do on a computer. But I also hate the OSX UI with a passion, so I'm happy with what I was able to do with my Debian. If you are willing to customise the experience to your liking, and perhaps adapt to the OS, Linux may be a viable choice. But if your only complaint about OSX is the lag on older HW... I do not think it is a good idea to switch.

What you can try, however, is Linux in a VM. Put it in full screen, and see if you can use it. Give it all the resources you can, and run only the VM. It will be slower than on real hardware, yeah, but for a vast majority of coding tasks, it is perfectly acceptable - a lot of my friends work in a similar setup. If you end up liking it, THEN switch.

[jacobolus]

Legitimate question: how the hell does your computer even function with that many open tabs?  Do you have like 64GB of RAM or something.

Safari works great with 200–300 open tabs. Chrome chokes after the first ~30, and Firefox can only handle about 100.

16 GB of RAM.

[vivalarevolución]

Legitimate question: how the hell does your computer even function with that many open tabs?  Do you have like 64GB of RAM or something.

Safari works great with 200–300 open tabs. Chrome chokes after the first ~30, and Firefox can only handle about 100.

16 GB of RAM.

Good to know.  Chrome's penchant for hogging RAM is exactly why I choose not to use it, whenever possible.   My Chromebook with 4GB of RAM chokes up with about 10 tabs, a video or music playing, and another app or two active.  It's anemic.

[iLLucionist]

One thing that pisses me off about Mac cmd-backtick / cmd-shift-backtick (for rotating through windows within a particular app) is that they changed the ordering system a few years ago. Previously, they were ordered in chronological order by original creation time. Now they get reordered every time you leave them alone for a little bit, I think by how recently they were looked at (?). This is supposed to make it easier to use cmd-backtick to return to your previous window, but if you have more than 4 or 5 windows open in one app, the result is that you basically can’t ever get to the windows at the back of the queue, because every time you wait for a few seconds they get reshuffled. Additionally, there’s no stable ordering, so it’s impossible to predict which window will come next when you hit cmd-backtick another time. Really frustrating change. The only effective way to navigate in an app with >4 window is to now always use cmd-shift-backtick to go through the windows in "backwards" order, and just shuffle all the way through the whole queue if you want to go the other direction.

I've noticed this as well and find it highly annoying. I am always wondering why Apple has this inclination towards changing these little stuff for whatever reason.

[iLLucionist]

I found myself using the same tools for writing research papers under linux as i used in osx.
The most comfortable solution for me is using a linux powered VPS for experiments and whatever OS on the laptop.
But if you have to use commercial software like microsoft office and do experiments on the same machine, than you have to use MacOS or Windows with a linux virtual machine or vice versa. Also Microsoft has now some kind of build in linux support anounced, figured out with canonical.

That's my whole problem. If I were a sole software developer I could say "f**k it linux all the way". But I NEED MS Word and MS Excel for my day-to-day work, unfortunately. And despite what people like to believe, OpenOffice and its forks are not up to the task. Really, it is not.

[iLLucionist]

One thing that pisses me off about Mac cmd-backtick / cmd-shift-backtick (for rotating through windows within a particular app) is that they changed the ordering system a few years ago. Previously, they were ordered in chronological order by original creation time. Now they get reordered every time you leave them alone for a little bit, I think by how recently they were looked at (?). This is supposed to make it easier to use cmd-backtick to return to your previous window, but if you have more than 4 or 5 windows open in one app, the result is that you basically can’t ever get to the windows at the back of the queue, because every time you wait for a few seconds they get reshuffled. Additionally, there’s no stable ordering, so it’s impossible to predict which window will come next when you hit cmd-backtick another time. Really frustrating change. The only effective way to navigate in an app with >4 window is to now always use cmd-shift-backtick to go through the windows in "backwards" order, and just shuffle all the way through the whole queue if you want to go the other direction.

I haven't noticed this - the most windows I have open for one app is about 3 (at home - that may change when I start using a Mac at work).

It is *super* annoying. In Word, I have usualy around 10 documents open or so. It really becomes a pain to find just that window you were looking for. And I don't really like mission control or whatever they are calling it nowadays. It somehow feels weird to use, I don't know why.

[iLLucionist]

This thread seems to have plenty of analytical chatter already, but I have a very simple recommendation:  slap some more RAM in there, like jacobolus has mentioned, dual boot your system with a Linux distro of choice, use it for awhile to see how it fits your needs, and then decide from there.  No need to to make the big purchases and life altering OS shift right from the get-go.

I also do not like the direction Apple is going with their non-modular computers that basically force you to max out your specs for a significant price premium.  Then it seems like your device is running slow on the latest Mac OS within a couple years, and you have to do it all over again.  The upside is that Macs have great resale value, and you can sell your current model to pay for a new model.

Thanks for the info, good tip. I'll take that into consideration! I've tried to run arch / ubuntu / debian in VMWare fusion but my Mac is just not fast enough (anymore) to do that effortlessly.

[iLLucionist]

Also, I want to note something about this thread.  We are airing quite a few grievances about the pitfalls of various operating systems, and it's easy to focus on the problems.  I've only been involved with open source software for a few months now, but I've learned that writing good software is f-ing hard.  Especially if it is something you do in your free time without pay.  From what I can tell, many of those involved with Apple and Linux are very intelligent, ambituous, hard working individuals.  And if some of the brightest people on this planet are crafting products that still have major flaws, I can only conclude that making great software is far from easy.

So I'm just gonna take a step back and marvel at the fact Mac OS and the flavors of Linux actually exist and function, whereas 35 years ago, neither of them existed.  That's an f-ing achievement of mankind right there.

Enough praise, though, let's get back to identifying and solving problems.

Agreed. Building a great OS is f**king difficult. Especially if you are aware of what an operating system actually has to manage nowadays. The requirements and the optimum seeking.. I figure OS software engineers are regularly pulling their hair out: great battery life, great performance, AND great multi-tasking and UI response. Great net IO. All at the same time. Driving a 4K screen and still have the battery last 7 hours.

But still I feel that real productivity software is gone downhill. Call me nostalgic or bearded, but I was there when Multiplan, Lotus 1-2-3, WordPerfect etc happened. That was software that really made you productive at the time. But Word nowadays and other so-called "productivity" software is a joke. Most of the time it gets in the way for me because of the "look at the pretty UI we made for you". I found Mac OS 7 and black-and-white Mac OS 6 the most beautiful operating system ever: just lean and mean black on white dialogs and toolbars with only essential color.

[iLLucionist]

I haven't noticed this - the most windows I have open for one app is about 3 (at home - that may change when I start using a Mac at work).

I currently have about 50 windows open in Safari. :-)

I think the next version of the DSM will have a disorder for excessive open browser tab accumulation or something like that.

Legitimate question: how the hell does your computer even function with that many open tabs?  Do you have like 64GB of RAM or something.

The funny thing is.. why the HELL do browsers need so many RAM? Is there SO MUCH CODE necessary to show some freakin' posts on my facebook wall? Why do browsers hog so much memory? For real?

[iLLucionist]

If you like the OSX UI, and your chief complaint is speed and price, I'm afraid you'll have to reach into your pocket deeper, and upgrade the hardware. You're not going to like the Linux landscape.

I say this as someone who used linux since 1996, exclusively (except for gaming), both at home, and at work, for coding and everything else I do on a computer. But I also hate the OSX UI with a passion, so I'm happy with what I was able to do with my Debian. If you are willing to customise the experience to your liking, and perhaps adapt to the OS, Linux may be a viable choice. But if your only complaint about OSX is the lag on older HW... I do not think it is a good idea to switch.

What you can try, however, is Linux in a VM. Put it in full screen, and see if you can use it. Give it all the resources you can, and run only the VM. It will be slower than on real hardware, yeah, but for a vast majority of coding tasks, it is perfectly acceptable - a lot of my friends work in a similar setup. If you end up liking it, THEN switch.

Thanks, I should definitely try it out!

[iLLucionist]

Legitimate question: how the hell does your computer even function with that many open tabs?  Do you have like 64GB of RAM or something.

Safari works great with 200–300 open tabs. Chrome chokes after the first ~30, and Firefox can only handle about 100.

16 GB of RAM.

Good to know.  Chrome's penchant for hogging RAM is exactly why I choose not to use it, whenever possible.   My Chromebook with 4GB of RAM chokes up with about 10 tabs, a video or music playing, and another app or two active.  It's anemic.

Chrome was great in the early days. Now it is as bad as the other browsers. What's up with that?

[rowdy]

I haven't noticed this - the most windows I have open for one app is about 3 (at home - that may change when I start using a Mac at work).

I currently have about 50 windows open in Safari. :-)

Sorry, are we talking about separate windows in one app, or separate tabs in one browser window?

If you want to know about tabs in one browser window, I don't usually have more than about 50 open at once.  Chrome switches best between them, at least in a way that seems most logical to me.  Firefox is very similar to Chrome and I can switch between them no worries.  Vivaldi is getting better, but still seems all over the place.  Opera was great, but to me lost the plot many years ago.  Safari - don't really use it.

[rowdy]

Also, I want to note something about this thread.  We are airing quite a few grievances about the pitfalls of various operating systems, and it's easy to focus on the problems.  I've only been involved with open source software for a few months now, but I've learned that writing good software is f-ing hard.  Especially if it is something you do in your free time without pay.  From what I can tell, many of those involved with Apple and Linux are very intelligent, ambituous, hard working individuals.  And if some of the brightest people on this planet are crafting products that still have major flaws, I can only conclude that making great software is far from easy.

So I'm just gonna take a step back and marvel at the fact Mac OS and the flavors of Linux actually exist and function, whereas 35 years ago, neither of them existed.  That's an f-ing achievement of mankind right there.

Enough praise, though, let's get back to identifying and solving problems.

OS X has a Darwin core (kernel?) which is based on one of the BSDs.

BSD has been around since 1977, so about 39 years.

The Unix philosophy is often said to be many small tools that do one thing well, and a way of linking them together.  Those small tools have evolved over time to what we have today (including the GNU equivalents).

So that covers Linux and OS X.

Windows - hahaha.  After all this time Microsoft still can't get it right and still don't know where they are going with it.  Changing the look and feel DRASTICALLY between releases, hoping people won't notice it is still the same gold-painted fecal matter.  To be a little fair to them though, they have had to contend with backwards compatibility across many version, and it sort of works.  Unfortunately it means that they had to drag a lot of crap from old versions into each new version to maintain that backwards compatibility.

Apple OTOH went from OX 9 to OS X - a complete rewrite and not backwards compatible.  After a short period of adjustment, most people have become accustomed to it.  Each OS X version from then looked and worked almost exactly the same as the previous version.

Apple also moved from Motorola-based systems to PowerPC-based systems to Intel-based systems, allowing backwards compatibility for a few versions into each new era, before abandoning the old technology.  That also seems to have been a strategy that mostly worked.

[jacobolus]

I currently have about 50 windows open in Safari. :-)

Sorry, are we talking about separate windows in one app, or separate tabs in one browser window?

Separate browser windows. Probably 3–10 tabs each, maybe 300 tabs overall. It fluctuates a bit, occasionally I get down to <100 tabs.

[iLLucionist]

Windows - hahaha.  After all this time Microsoft still can't get it right and still don't know where they are going with it.  Changing the look and feel DRASTICALLY between releases, hoping people won't notice it is still the same gold-painted fecal matter.  To be a little fair to them though, they have had to contend with backwards compatibility across many version, and it sort of works.  Unfortunately it means that they had to drag a lot of crap from old versions into each new version to maintain that backwards compatibility.

I will NEVER use Microsoft NSA Spying OS Extra-Backdoors Deluxe on my desktop. Not with it attached to the internet. Windows 7 was relatively ok IMHO. After that, everything went downhill fast. Of course, it has always been WinNT 3.51 with a newer UI on-top of it.

[rowdy]

Windows - hahaha.  After all this time Microsoft still can't get it right and still don't know where they are going with it.  Changing the look and feel DRASTICALLY between releases, hoping people won't notice it is still the same gold-painted fecal matter.  To be a little fair to them though, they have had to contend with backwards compatibility across many version, and it sort of works.  Unfortunately it means that they had to drag a lot of crap from old versions into each new version to maintain that backwards compatibility.

I will NEVER use Microsoft NSA Spying OS Extra-Backdoors Deluxe on my desktop. Not with it attached to the internet. Windows 7 was relatively ok IMHO. After that, everything went downhill fast. Of course, it has always been WinNT 3.51 with a newer UI on-top of it.

Not that long ago the average time an unprotected Windows workstation could be connected to the internet without being cracked was 12 minutes.

The original linked article seems to have disappeared, but Slashdot coverage is still: https://it.slashdot.org/story/05/07/01/0218209/the-12-minute-windows-heist

Microsoft tend to work-around security issues by blocking access to that feature.

[pr0ximity]

Also, I want to note something about this thread.  We are airing quite a few grievances about the pitfalls of various operating systems, and it's easy to focus on the problems.  I've only been involved with open source software for a few months now, but I've learned that writing good software is f-ing hard.  Especially if it is something you do in your free time without pay.  From what I can tell, many of those involved with Apple and Linux are very intelligent, ambituous, hard working individuals.  And if some of the brightest people on this planet are crafting products that still have major flaws, I can only conclude that making great software is far from easy.

So I'm just gonna take a step back and marvel at the fact Mac OS and the flavors of Linux actually exist and function, whereas 35 years ago, neither of them existed.  That's an f-ing achievement of mankind right there.

Enough praise, though, let's get back to identifying and solving problems.

Agreed. Building a great OS is f**king difficult. Especially if you are aware of what an operating system actually has to manage nowadays. The requirements and the optimum seeking.. I figure OS software engineers are regularly pulling their hair out: great battery life, great performance, AND great multi-tasking and UI response. Great net IO. All at the same time. Driving a 4K screen and still have the battery last 7 hours.

But still I feel that real productivity software is gone downhill. Call me nostalgic or bearded, but I was there when Multiplan, Lotus 1-2-3, WordPerfect etc happened. That was software that really made you productive at the time. But Word nowadays and other so-called "productivity" software is a joke. Most of the time it gets in the way for me because of the "look at the pretty UI we made for you". I found Mac OS 7 and black-and-white Mac OS 6 the most beautiful operating system ever: just lean and mean black on white dialogs and toolbars with only essential color.

You sound like you would absolutely love emacs. Bit of a learning curve, but pure unadulterated productivity after that with org-mode and whatever email client those people use. Read some good things recently about Alpine.

[pr0ximity]

Windows - hahaha.  After all this time Microsoft still can't get it right and still don't know where they are going with it.  Changing the look and feel DRASTICALLY between releases, hoping people won't notice it is still the same gold-painted fecal matter.  To be a little fair to them though, they have had to contend with backwards compatibility across many version, and it sort of works.  Unfortunately it means that they had to drag a lot of crap from old versions into each new version to maintain that backwards compatibility.

I will NEVER use Microsoft NSA Spying OS Extra-Backdoors Deluxe on my desktop. Not with it attached to the internet. Windows 7 was relatively ok IMHO. After that, everything went downhill fast. Of course, it has always been WinNT 3.51 with a newer UI on-top of it.

http://bgr.com/2015/08/28/windows-10-features-spying-windows-7-8/

Windows 7 isn't a peach either, unfortunately.

[iLLucionist]

Windows - hahaha.  After all this time Microsoft still can't get it right and still don't know where they are going with it.  Changing the look and feel DRASTICALLY between releases, hoping people won't notice it is still the same gold-painted fecal matter.  To be a little fair to them though, they have had to contend with backwards compatibility across many version, and it sort of works.  Unfortunately it means that they had to drag a lot of crap from old versions into each new version to maintain that backwards compatibility.

I will NEVER use Microsoft NSA Spying OS Extra-Backdoors Deluxe on my desktop. Not with it attached to the internet. Windows 7 was relatively ok IMHO. After that, everything went downhill fast. Of course, it has always been WinNT 3.51 with a newer UI on-top of it.

http://bgr.com/2015/08/28/windows-10-features-spying-windows-7-8/

Windows 7 isn't a peach either, unfortunately.

Yeah I remember there were stories back in the day of win95 also having backdoors (or win98 not entirely sure). But I have the feeling that win10 is a whole new level of spying on its users.

[iLLucionist]

Also, I want to note something about this thread.  We are airing quite a few grievances about the pitfalls of various operating systems, and it's easy to focus on the problems.  I've only been involved with open source software for a few months now, but I've learned that writing good software is f-ing hard.  Especially if it is something you do in your free time without pay.  From what I can tell, many of those involved with Apple and Linux are very intelligent, ambituous, hard working individuals.  And if some of the brightest people on this planet are crafting products that still have major flaws, I can only conclude that making great software is far from easy.

So I'm just gonna take a step back and marvel at the fact Mac OS and the flavors of Linux actually exist and function, whereas 35 years ago, neither of them existed.  That's an f-ing achievement of mankind right there.

Enough praise, though, let's get back to identifying and solving problems.

Agreed. Building a great OS is f**king difficult. Especially if you are aware of what an operating system actually has to manage nowadays. The requirements and the optimum seeking.. I figure OS software engineers are regularly pulling their hair out: great battery life, great performance, AND great multi-tasking and UI response. Great net IO. All at the same time. Driving a 4K screen and still have the battery last 7 hours.

But still I feel that real productivity software is gone downhill. Call me nostalgic or bearded, but I was there when Multiplan, Lotus 1-2-3, WordPerfect etc happened. That was software that really made you productive at the time. But Word nowadays and other so-called "productivity" software is a joke. Most of the time it gets in the way for me because of the "look at the pretty UI we made for you". I found Mac OS 7 and black-and-white Mac OS 6 the most beautiful operating system ever: just lean and mean black on white dialogs and toolbars with only essential color.

You sound like you would absolutely love emacs. Bit of a learning curve, but pure unadulterated productivity after that with org-mode and whatever email client those people use. Read some good things recently about Alpine.

Thanks for the tip! Yeah, I am already trying out spacemacs now and then as I can really not live without vim motions.

[iLLucionist]

So. Are there any workstation-like laptops that would allow me to use linux but simultaneously let me run OS X in a VM? Without sacrificing batterylife? Or am I being insane here?

Typically usage would be vim+tmux+latex on i3 or xfce and vmware with os x with MS word.

Or am I asking too much now?

What are really really good and powerful laptops like the retina MacBook Pro but in PC-world but with acceptable battery life (6-7 hours) that do linux well?

[Altis]

...
What are really really good and powerful laptops like the retina MacBook Pro but in PC-world but with acceptable battery life (6-7 hours) that do linux well?

Does the Dell XPS not fit the bill? The screens are better than MacBooks and battery life is North of 6-7 hours, and they do Linux as well as any.

Getting OS X to run on a PC is a bit tricky, and unfortunately updates tend to cause some headaches. There are all kinds of resources out there for "Hackintosh" builds (best to get OSX supported hardware). I have yet to hear of OS X being run in a virtual machine.

[iri]

So. Are there any workstation-like laptops that would allow me to use linux but simultaneously let me run OS X in a VM? Without sacrificing batterylife? Or am I being insane here?

Typically usage would be vim+tmux+latex on i3 or xfce and vmware with os x with MS word.

Or am I asking too much now?

What are really really good and powerful laptops like the retina MacBook Pro but in PC-world but with acceptable battery life (6-7 hours) that do linux well?

Why not the other way round, powerful macbook and VM with Linux? Sorry, haven't read the whole topic, it's too ****ing big.

[S1llyC0ne]

Why not the other way round, powerful macbook and VM with Linux? Sorry, haven't read the whole topic, it's too ****ing big.

So there was no need for you to post...


Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

[iLLucionist]

Thanks for all the feedback. Really great!

So I've decided to try to run linux (arch, ubuntu, and debian) inside a vm and try to live with it's desktop environment (i3 and xfce.. f**k unity). If I like it, I might buy a PC laptop with linux OR PC desktop with linux with win or osx in vm for the real apps (ms word) and keep a MBP for the go.

But I'll wait for WWDC to see whether a new macbook makes sense (they should announce new retina macbooks this year) or whether I'll leave Apple for now and go the PC route with full linux.

It are difficult times.. I can only spend my money once. I used to like Apple hardware, but it's going downhill IMHO. I've always looked down on PC laptops given that it's always compromise somewhere (case or battery life or screen or keyboard or trackpad etc etc etc). But if Apple goes full retard like they seem to be, I'll probably switch. Sigh.

[vivalarevolución]

Thanks for all the feedback. Really great!

So I've decided to try to run linux (arch, ubuntu, and debian) inside a vm and try to live with it's desktop environment (i3 and xfce.. f**k unity). If I like it, I might buy a PC laptop with linux OR PC desktop with linux with win or osx in vm for the real apps (ms word) and keep a MBP for the go.

But I'll wait for WWDC to see whether a new macbook makes sense (they should announce new retina macbooks this year) or whether I'll leave Apple for now and go the PC route with full linux.

It are difficult times.. I can only spend my money once. I used to like Apple hardware, but it's going downhill IMHO. I've always looked down on PC laptops given that it's always compromise somewhere (case or battery life or screen or keyboard or trackpad etc etc etc). But if Apple goes full retard like they seem to be, I'll probably switch. Sigh.

Welcome to the rabbit hole of Linux!  You'll never get out...

[iLLucionist]

Thanks for all the feedback. Really great!

So I've decided to try to run linux (arch, ubuntu, and debian) inside a vm and try to live with it's desktop environment (i3 and xfce.. f**k unity). If I like it, I might buy a PC laptop with linux OR PC desktop with linux with win or osx in vm for the real apps (ms word) and keep a MBP for the go.

But I'll wait for WWDC to see whether a new macbook makes sense (they should announce new retina macbooks this year) or whether I'll leave Apple for now and go the PC route with full linux.

It are difficult times.. I can only spend my money once. I used to like Apple hardware, but it's going downhill IMHO. I've always looked down on PC laptops given that it's always compromise somewhere (case or battery life or screen or keyboard or trackpad etc etc etc). But if Apple goes full retard like they seem to be, I'll probably switch. Sigh.

Welcome to the rabbit hole of Linux!  You'll never get out...

It's funny. People never understood why I switched to linux because "windows isn't that bad". So I switched to linux around 2001, with windows on the side for gaming. And then I tried windows around 2004 again for realz. And I noticed all this bugs and issues that I forgot to worry about. And I went back and all was good. Except for it wasn't. Coz dependency hell with packages, updates breaking config etc. So I switched to Mac. Which was great (given you have the money for it) up until Apple is thrusting their big fat juicy f*st up mine to get me to buy whatever crap they are pumping out nowadays.

[iLLucionist]

Time to furiously compare PC laptops. For as far as I see Dell XPS has trackpad issues and coil whine and Lenovo X1 has a crappy display. I hope it is more nuanced like that.

If I go for a custom desktop build oh man.. so many choices to make for my new baby!

[rowdy]

Thanks for all the feedback. Really great!

So I've decided to try to run linux (arch, ubuntu, and debian) inside a vm and try to live with it's desktop environment (i3 and xfce.. f**k unity). If I like it, I might buy a PC laptop with linux OR PC desktop with linux with win or osx in vm for the real apps (ms word) and keep a MBP for the go.

But I'll wait for WWDC to see whether a new macbook makes sense (they should announce new retina macbooks this year) or whether I'll leave Apple for now and go the PC route with full linux.

It are difficult times.. I can only spend my money once. I used to like Apple hardware, but it's going downhill IMHO. I've always looked down on PC laptops given that it's always compromise somewhere (case or battery life or screen or keyboard or trackpad etc etc etc). But if Apple goes full retard like they seem to be, I'll probably switch. Sigh.

Welcome to the rabbit hole of Linux!  You'll never get out...

It's funny. People never understood why I switched to linux because "windows isn't that bad". So I switched to linux around 2001, with windows on the side for gaming. And then I tried windows around 2004 again for realz. And I noticed all this bugs and issues that I forgot to worry about. And I went back and all was good. Except for it wasn't. Coz dependency hell with packages, updates breaking config etc. So I switched to Mac. Which was great (given you have the money for it) up until Apple is thrusting their big fat juicy f*st up mine to get me to buy whatever crap they are pumping out nowadays.

You don't have to keep buying Apple gear, unless you need something only available in the latest model.

My Mac is 6+ years old and still running fine (albeit a little slowly).  I have no immediate need to update.

[iri]

My Apple laptop runs vm's with Linux pretty well. Also, it runs native Linux. Also, native Mac Os.

So my advice is to buy whichever hardware is better and has better deal.

[iLLucionist]

You don't have to keep buying Apple gear, unless you need something only available in the latest model.

My Mac is 6+ years old and still running fine (albeit a little slowly).  I have no immediate need to update.

Do you have el capitan running on it?

[iLLucionist]

My Apple laptop runs vm's with Linux pretty well. Also, it runs native Linux. Also, native Mac Os.

So my advice is to buy whichever hardware is better and has better deal.

Thanks! Yeah... I'll try vms for now. Time to see if I could make the switch for realz.

[rowdy]

You don't have to keep buying Apple gear, unless you need something only available in the latest model.

My Mac is 6+ years old and still running fine (albeit a little slowly).  I have no immediate need to update.

Do you have el capitan running on it?

No, only Mavericks.  All the apps I need run under Mavericks.