Author Topic: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX  (Read 29498 times)

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Offline iLLucionist

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Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« on: Sat, 02 April 2016, 07:07:50 »
I have to upgrade my Late 2010 Macbook Pro (4GB, 2.8Ghz i7, GT 330M 512MB, 256GB SSD). It's becoming  slow for what I want to do. I've been a fan of OSX because it is Unix wrapped in a nice graphical shell with the "real" apps like Word, Excel, and Illustrator and other nice OSX Apps like Affinity Designer.

I do webdev, systems programming, statistical data analysis, and writing academic papers. So I mostly need raw computing power and multi-tasking.

Hardware-wise I find Apple underpowered and increasingly expensive (like in the 90's). The Mac Pro is a joke to me. Way too expensive for what you are not getting. But OSX is really nice.

Now Linux has always been a pain-in-the-*ss for me to keep it running on the desktop. And don't give me that "it work's perfect always EXCEPT for that ONE TIME". That's the issue. That "ONE TIME" is what always happens when you are on deadlines, HAVING to finish. I've also read this blog about linux's shortcomings on the desktop.

So my question is, what is best for coding?

A: OSX, nice graphical shell around UNIX with "real" apps but give in on hardware and pay more
B: build a sick powerful state-of-the-art linux machine, but "accept" occasional breakdowns and package dependency conflicts and what not.
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Offline KRKS

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 02 April 2016, 15:43:47 »
I've also read this blog about linux's shortcomings on the desktop.

This sentence, along with you not stating any specific problems tells me enough. Just buy a new Mac and spare us BS.
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Offline smknjoe

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 02 April 2016, 16:17:14 »
I have yet, to run into problems with stock Debian. If should be able to do everything you want except game...unless there are special apps you have not mentioned.
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 02 April 2016, 16:32:04 »
It's becoming  slow for what I want to do. [...] I do webdev, systems programming, statistical data analysis, and writing academic papers.
Which part is slow? I’m guessing it’s the statistical analysis which is slow? None of those other things on your list should take excessive CPU power. What programming language/environment/libraries are you using for your statistical analysis, and what type of analysis, specifically? Are you running code multithreaded? On the GPU? Are you I/O bound? Memory bound? How optimized are your programs? ...

Getting a machine with more RAM could help a lot. My 13" “retina” Mac laptop has 16 GB of memory, and the last time I had <8GB was 7 years ago. I would find it very constricting to use a machine with 4 GB today. You could probably get a big boost with your current machine just by buying 8 GB of third-party memory.

Quote
So my question is, what is best for coding?
In my opinion, the best on the market for “coding” generically, if you’re sitting at a desk, is a 27" iMac, even if you want to run Linux on it. As far as I can tell the hardware is better priced than a similarly specced machine + display from any other vendor [cheapest configured 27" iMac is $1800, a similar display from Dell is $1600 by itself (current Amazon price), before adding a computer]. Lots of display space to fit a decent number of editor windows and browser windows (you said webdev, so I assume you need to test everything in multiple browsers). For me, the nice display is worth a lot more w/r/t programmer productivity than some extra CPU cores. CPU and GPU performance on typical tasks is great, a big step up from your 2010 laptop.

[The Mac Pro is a very specific niche machine (which is additionally a few years out of date because Intel’s schedule has slipped in the past few years and we’re just finally getting the CPUs, displays, new USB/Thunderbolt ports, etc. which would call for it to be refreshed), not a general-purpose consumer workstation. It’s great for people with specific GPU or heavily parallelized CPU workloads, or folks who need to have maximum I/O. A smaller and smaller set of use cases aren’t handled by consumer hardware, and it sounds like yours aren’t among those. It’s not surprising that the Mac Pro doesn’t meet your needs.]

If you ever need to run a bigger workload than your machine can manage locally, rent some time on a remote Linux server somewhere.

But you haven’t really given a full accounting of your criteria. Do you need to work out of a coffeeshop or on the couch sometimes? etc.

What text editor do you use? What’s your toolset for writing papers (LaTeX? MS Word? InDesign? Do you ever need to make diagrams?)? Are you a grad student? Assistant professor? Professional software engineer? What’s your computer budget? ...

Just out of curiosity, what sort of systems programming?
« Last Edit: Sat, 02 April 2016, 17:00:52 by jacobolus »

Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #4 on: Sat, 02 April 2016, 17:05:47 »
I've also read this blog about linux's shortcomings on the desktop.

This sentence, along with you not stating any specific problems tells me enough. Just buy a new Mac and spare us BS.

Here it is, read it for yourself:

http://itvision.altervista.org/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.current.html
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Offline ideus

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #5 on: Sat, 02 April 2016, 17:07:05 »
For statistical analysis RAM is more important than CPU, that most contemporary ones run well, I have ran over 20 million records databases with 8 gigs only, with core 2 duo old machine, as some wrote, already, what part is slowing down your pc?

Offline pr0ximity

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #6 on: Sat, 02 April 2016, 17:28:47 »
From my experience, a robust modern Linux distro will cause you equally as much pain as developing on OSX; that is, not a whole lot most of the time. They both have their issues that can crop up when a deadline is looming. These are computers we're dealing with, after all  :))

Fiddling with overwriting or symlinking around El Capitan's default utilities is prone to headaches just as much as any dependency conflict in Ubuntu. At least with Ubuntu the OS isn't designed to prevent you from changing things. Homebrew, as much as it has been a godsend in certain aspects, is basically one big hack for an OS without a true package manager.

I would have 0 hesitation about switching to Ubuntu or openSUSE, aside from my heavily-ingrained OSX-specific muscle memory.
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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #7 on: Sat, 02 April 2016, 17:30:54 »
is this a gen 1 i7  or gen 2 sandybridge.


if it's gen 1, yea u need to upgrade,  if it's gen 2, you don't need to upgrade, you probably just need 16gigs of ram..


if you're SURE u need the cpu power,   go with the 4790k if you can overclock,  if you're not gonna overclock, then go with a 6700k..

Offline smknjoe

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #8 on: Sat, 02 April 2016, 17:35:29 »
Homebrew, as much as it has been a godsend in certain aspects, is basically one big hack for an OS without a true package manager.

It's what keeps me sane on the Macs at work. Otherwise, I'd use Debian or Slackware exclusively.
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Offline pr0ximity

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #9 on: Sat, 02 April 2016, 17:39:29 »
Homebrew, as much as it has been a godsend in certain aspects, is basically one big hack for an OS without a true package manager.

It's what keeps me sane on the Macs at work. Otherwise, I'd use Debian or Slackware exclusively.
It most certainly does not keep me sane when I want a specific version of a package. Their versioning is wonky at best.
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Offline smknjoe

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #10 on: Sat, 02 April 2016, 17:43:57 »
Homebrew, as much as it has been a godsend in certain aspects, is basically one big hack for an OS without a true package manager.

It's what keeps me sane on the Macs at work. Otherwise, I'd use Debian or Slackware exclusively.
It most certainly does not keep me sane when I want a specific version of a package. Their versioning is wonky at best.

Touche. I didn't say completely sane. ;) You are right though. It's not the best, but at least it's something.
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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #11 on: Sat, 02 April 2016, 17:45:20 »
I am forced to code with a MacBook Pro at work and I hate it to the guts.

We do a lot with virtualization and recently we tried out docker for a new project.
It has to run in a Vagrant machine because a Linux Kernell is necessary for docker and it will take some time to run natively on OSX

The default terminal is a big joke, I am forced to use iterm2 plus heavy configuration to make it viable for me.
And I really hate the keyboard layout... If you have worked on linux or windows machines before you can flush all the hotkeys you know down the toilet because Apple tend to do it the 'Apple Way'. I afraight I will lose my sanity soon.
I am used to type on a HHKB with US-International layout, it works perfectly on win/linux but scumbag Apple has a totally different implementation which is totally useless for me.


If you have the chance, stay away from Apple products as far as possible.

Offline smknjoe

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #12 on: Sat, 02 April 2016, 17:54:36 »
Sounds like someone needs a cookie. :p

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Offline jacobolus

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #13 on: Sat, 02 April 2016, 19:39:21 »
And I really hate the keyboard layout... If you have worked on linux or windows machines before you can flush all the hotkeys you know down the toilet because Apple tend to do it the 'Apple Way'. I afraight I will lose my sanity soon.
Macs have had roughly consistent (slowly evolving) keyboard shortcuts since 1985. In general, they are more coherent and stable over time than shortcuts on Windows or Linux.

Just because you’re used to different conventions doesn’t mean the Mac convention is bad.

For text entry at least, you can easily customize the Mac keyboard shortcuts to be setup however you prefer. Here’s an article about it I wrote in 2006:
http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~jrus/site/cocoa-text.html (also cf. http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~jrus/site/system-bindings.html http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~jrus/site/selectors.html or these example key binding files https://github.com/jrus/cocoa-text-system/tree/master/KeyBindings)

Quote
I am used to type on a HHKB with US-International layout, it works perfectly on win/linux but scumbag Apple has a totally different implementation which is totally useless for me.
Blame the HHKB for not being compatible with the Mac. If your keyboard had programmable firmware you could probably fix the problem.

Speaking for myself, when have to use a Linux or Windows machine I have to do a google search and copy/paste unicode characters out of a webpage every time I want to use standard symbols like π, ∞, …, “”, «», ¶, √, ≠, °, —, ¡, ¿, &c., all of which I’ve been able to quickly and easily type on every Mac the same way for the past 20 years. The suggested “workaround” is memorizing a bunch of 4 digit codes and typing them in via the numpad. No thanks.

More generally, Macs have a reasonably capable system for defining custom keyboard layouts. If you want to make your own keyboard layout, SIL puts out this nice GUI tool: http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&item_id=ukelele

Quote
I am forced to code with a MacBook Pro at work and I hate it to the guts.
The better lesson here is that employers shouldn’t try to force their employees to use particular tools. Especially without providing any retraining for employees who are crotchety and set in their ways.

* * *

Fiddling with overwriting or symlinking around El Capitan's default utilities is prone to headaches just as much as any dependency conflict in Ubuntu.
Can you elaborate about what you want to overwrite or symlink around?
« Last Edit: Sat, 02 April 2016, 19:58:31 by jacobolus »

Offline rowdy

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #14 on: Sat, 02 April 2016, 20:19:18 »
At work we've been developing Windows software for several decades.  Recently we have started shifting towards Web-based applications with a back end written in Java that can run on any platform.

Historically we've all had Windows desktops, since about 3.1.  We're usually a couple of versions behind, simply because there is usually no need to upgrade something that works.

Now I need a new workstation, and was given the option of a Mac.

I carefully compared prices, and a Dell with Windows 10 is more expensive than an iMac.  The iMac came in at about $4500, the Dell was closer to $5000.  Plus Apple hardware holds its resale value somewhat better.

Windows - I see it as a single user gaming operating system.  Really.  I struggle with it on a daily basis.  Memory management sucks.  UI is extremely inconsistent and inconvenient.  I've settled on the classic (Win2K) theme as Aero (Win 7) is broken in many ways for me.  On the plus side many, many companies have bought in to the Microsoft ecosystem so there is a plethora of development tools available.  Needs regular rebooting (at least every week) to maintain a semblance of stability.

Linux - I've been using it since the days when it was distributed on floppies and you had to carefully configure a GUI by hand.  I've had applications crash randomly all the time, including MATE System Monitor on Debian 8 (to give a recent example).  Being very much a server tool, there is a plethora of development tools available.  There is also a plethora of desktop environments available, and most have far too many customisation options - I can spend hours configuring a desktop the way I like.

OS X - A nice and consistent GUI on top of a Unix-like operating system.  Not much GUI configuration options, it just gets out of the way and lets you work.  It was Unix (based on one of the BSDs) and Apple customised it and moved lots of things around.  My Mac at home has crashed maybe 2 or 3 times in 6 years.  The only reason I reboot is to install operating system updates.  Main development tools are Apple's, and less familiar.  There are other options available, and using a third party package management system you can install many of the Linux development tools.

My personal preference is the Mac.  I've been fighting Windows for years, and I'm sick and tired of it.  Linux still seems a bit experimental and unstable to me, especially on the desktop, although things have improved considerably, but there are still far too many options to choose from.  OS X just works, looks nice, and basically gets out of the way and lets you do your work.

It will be interesting to see how a Mac at work goes - we still do a lot of Windows development.  I'll have to run that in a VM, but run everything else natively.
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Offline smknjoe

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #15 on: Sat, 02 April 2016, 20:36:49 »
At work we've been developing Windows software for several decades.  Recently we have started shifting towards Web-based applications with a back end written in Java that can run on any platform.

Historically we've all had Windows desktops, since about 3.1.  We're usually a couple of versions behind, simply because there is usually no need to upgrade something that works.

Now I need a new workstation, and was given the option of a Mac.

I carefully compared prices, and a Dell with Windows 10 is more expensive than an iMac.  The iMac came in at about $4500, the Dell was closer to $5000.  Plus Apple hardware holds its resale value somewhat better.

Windows - I see it as a single user gaming operating system.  Really.  I struggle with it on a daily basis.  Memory management sucks.  UI is extremely inconsistent and inconvenient.  I've settled on the classic (Win2K) theme as Aero (Win 7) is broken in many ways for me.  On the plus side many, many companies have bought in to the Microsoft ecosystem so there is a plethora of development tools available.  Needs regular rebooting (at least every week) to maintain a semblance of stability.

Linux - I've been using it since the days when it was distributed on floppies and you had to carefully configure a GUI by hand.  I've had applications crash randomly all the time, including MATE System Monitor on Debian 8 (to give a recent example).  Being very much a server tool, there is a plethora of development tools available.  There is also a plethora of desktop environments available, and most have far too many customisation options - I can spend hours configuring a desktop the way I like.

OS X - A nice and consistent GUI on top of a Unix-like operating system.  Not much GUI configuration options, it just gets out of the way and lets you work.  It was Unix (based on one of the BSDs) and Apple customised it and moved lots of things around.  My Mac at home has crashed maybe 2 or 3 times in 6 years.  The only reason I reboot is to install operating system updates.  Main development tools are Apple's, and less familiar.  There are other options available, and using a third party package management system you can install many of the Linux development tools.

My personal preference is the Mac.  I've been fighting Windows for years, and I'm sick and tired of it.  Linux still seems a bit experimental and unstable to me, especially on the desktop, although things have improved considerably, but there are still far too many options to choose from.  OS X just works, looks nice, and basically gets out of the way and lets you do your work.

It will be interesting to see how a Mac at work goes - we still do a lot of Windows development.  I'll have to run that in a VM, but run everything else natively.

I'm gonna have to call you out, rowdy. :p Some of these observations sound like they came from 10 years ago, not recently.

When was the last time (and what distro) you tried Linux on a desktop or laptop? For the last 5 years, I could confidently slap Debian (default Gnome Desktop) on a "box" and use it as a "workstation" (I use laptops as workstations) without any problems with drivers or other basic software that I can think of.

I just recently started using my 4th MacBook Pro for work and it has completely frozen up on me several times. The only way to regain control was to power it down.

I haven't used Windows as main OS for about 8 years, but I don't have as much trouble with it as others seem to...
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #16 on: Sat, 02 April 2016, 20:45:43 »
I just recently started using my 4th MacBook Pro for work and it has completely frozen up on me several times. The only way to regain control was to power it down.
Did you look in the logs? What caused the freeze?

Offline smknjoe

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #17 on: Sat, 02 April 2016, 20:50:05 »
I didn't look. It happened during a very busy time when I was on the road and I had to get some work done. I have a feeling it was a graphics problem. It gets hotter than hell when running VMs or multiple displays. Too hot to touch.
« Last Edit: Sat, 02 April 2016, 21:57:53 by smknjoe »
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Offline rowdy

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #18 on: Sat, 02 April 2016, 22:02:25 »
At work we've been developing Windows software for several decades.  Recently we have started shifting towards Web-based applications with a back end written in Java that can run on any platform.

Historically we've all had Windows desktops, since about 3.1.  We're usually a couple of versions behind, simply because there is usually no need to upgrade something that works.

Now I need a new workstation, and was given the option of a Mac.

I carefully compared prices, and a Dell with Windows 10 is more expensive than an iMac.  The iMac came in at about $4500, the Dell was closer to $5000.  Plus Apple hardware holds its resale value somewhat better.

Windows - I see it as a single user gaming operating system.  Really.  I struggle with it on a daily basis.  Memory management sucks.  UI is extremely inconsistent and inconvenient.  I've settled on the classic (Win2K) theme as Aero (Win 7) is broken in many ways for me.  On the plus side many, many companies have bought in to the Microsoft ecosystem so there is a plethora of development tools available.  Needs regular rebooting (at least every week) to maintain a semblance of stability.

Linux - I've been using it since the days when it was distributed on floppies and you had to carefully configure a GUI by hand.  I've had applications crash randomly all the time, including MATE System Monitor on Debian 8 (to give a recent example).  Being very much a server tool, there is a plethora of development tools available.  There is also a plethora of desktop environments available, and most have far too many customisation options - I can spend hours configuring a desktop the way I like.

OS X - A nice and consistent GUI on top of a Unix-like operating system.  Not much GUI configuration options, it just gets out of the way and lets you work.  It was Unix (based on one of the BSDs) and Apple customised it and moved lots of things around.  My Mac at home has crashed maybe 2 or 3 times in 6 years.  The only reason I reboot is to install operating system updates.  Main development tools are Apple's, and less familiar.  There are other options available, and using a third party package management system you can install many of the Linux development tools.

My personal preference is the Mac.  I've been fighting Windows for years, and I'm sick and tired of it.  Linux still seems a bit experimental and unstable to me, especially on the desktop, although things have improved considerably, but there are still far too many options to choose from.  OS X just works, looks nice, and basically gets out of the way and lets you do your work.

It will be interesting to see how a Mac at work goes - we still do a lot of Windows development.  I'll have to run that in a VM, but run everything else natively.

I'm gonna have to call you out, rowdy. :p Some of these observations sound like they came from 10 years ago, not recently.

When was the last time (and what distro) you tried Linux on a desktop or laptop? For the last 5 years, I could confidently slap Debian (default Gnome Desktop) on a "box" and use it as a "workstation" (I use laptops as workstations) without any problems with drivers or other basic software that I can think of.

I just recently started using my 4th MacBook Pro for work and it has completely frozen up on me several times. The only way to regain control was to power it down.

I haven't used Windows as main OS for about 8 years, but I don't have as much trouble with it as others seem to...

Friday at work, in a VM.  I have a Debian 8 VM that I use for this Java stuff, 'cause it was easier to install some of the tools there than under Windows (the host).
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

NEC APC-H4100E | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED red | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED green | Link 900243-08 | CM QFR MX black | KeyCool 87 white MX reds | HHKB 2 Pro | Model M 02-Mar-1993 | Model M 29-Nov-1995 | CM Trigger (broken) | CM QFS MX green | Ducky DK9087 Shine 3 TKL Yellow Edition MX black | Lexmark SSK 21-Apr-1994 | IBM SSK 13-Oct-1987 | CODE TKL MX clear | Model M 122 01-Jun-1988

Ị̸͚̯̲́ͤ̃͑̇̑ͯ̊̂͟ͅs̞͚̩͉̝̪̲͗͊ͪ̽̚̚ ̭̦͖͕̑́͌ͬͩ͟t̷̻͔̙̑͟h̹̠̼͋ͤ͋i̤̜̣̦̱̫͈͔̞ͭ͑ͥ̌̔s̬͔͎̍̈ͥͫ̐̾ͣ̔̇͘ͅ ̩̘̼͆̐̕e̞̰͓̲̺̎͐̏ͬ̓̅̾͠͝ͅv̶̰͕̱̞̥̍ͣ̄̕e͕͙͖̬̜͓͎̤̊ͭ͐͝ṇ̰͎̱̤̟̭ͫ͌̌͢͠ͅ ̳̥̦ͮ̐ͤ̎̊ͣ͡͡n̤̜̙̺̪̒͜e̶̻̦̿ͮ̂̀c̝̘̝͖̠̖͐ͨͪ̈̐͌ͩ̀e̷̥͇̋ͦs̢̡̤ͤͤͯ͜s͈̠̉̑͘a̱͕̗͖̳̥̺ͬͦͧ͆̌̑͡r̶̟̖̈͘ỷ̮̦̩͙͔ͫ̾ͬ̔ͬͮ̌?̵̘͇͔͙ͥͪ͞ͅ

Offline smknjoe

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #19 on: Sat, 02 April 2016, 22:22:45 »
Did you use VMware with VMware-tools in the guest OS, or did you use VirtualBox? On actual hardware you should have no trouble.

VMware Workstation and Fusion are far better than VirtualBox. I know a lot of people who swear by VB, but I have problems with it every time I use it. Most recently, I tried VB about a month ago. The guest utilities (equivalent to vmware-tools), in particular, still suck. Better than they used to be (non-existant), but they don't work as well as vmware-tools.
« Last Edit: Sat, 02 April 2016, 22:33:19 by smknjoe »
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Offline rowdy

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #20 on: Sat, 02 April 2016, 23:06:28 »
Did you use VMware with VMware-tools in the guest OS, or did you use VirtualBox? On actual hardware you should have no trouble.

VMware Workstation and Fusion are far better than VirtualBox. I know a lot of people who swear by VB, but I have problems with it every time I use it. Most recently, I tried VB about a month ago. The guest utilities (equivalent to vmware-tools), in particular, still suck. Better than they used to be (non-existant), but they don't work as well as vmware-tools.

We used to use VMware.  But that went all commercial (or they stopped supporting the free version or something), so we switched to VirtualBox.

I've had a few issues with VirtualBox, but they were usually solved in an update or two.

The guest tools do what they are supposed to - keyboard/mouse integration, shared clipboard, shared folders, better display driver.

Plus VirtualBox is cross platform and I can, and sometimes do, export a VM and restore it on another host with a different operating system.

For a while we were even running VB ni text mode on a headless server.  Worked well.
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

NEC APC-H4100E | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED red | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED green | Link 900243-08 | CM QFR MX black | KeyCool 87 white MX reds | HHKB 2 Pro | Model M 02-Mar-1993 | Model M 29-Nov-1995 | CM Trigger (broken) | CM QFS MX green | Ducky DK9087 Shine 3 TKL Yellow Edition MX black | Lexmark SSK 21-Apr-1994 | IBM SSK 13-Oct-1987 | CODE TKL MX clear | Model M 122 01-Jun-1988

Ị̸͚̯̲́ͤ̃͑̇̑ͯ̊̂͟ͅs̞͚̩͉̝̪̲͗͊ͪ̽̚̚ ̭̦͖͕̑́͌ͬͩ͟t̷̻͔̙̑͟h̹̠̼͋ͤ͋i̤̜̣̦̱̫͈͔̞ͭ͑ͥ̌̔s̬͔͎̍̈ͥͫ̐̾ͣ̔̇͘ͅ ̩̘̼͆̐̕e̞̰͓̲̺̎͐̏ͬ̓̅̾͠͝ͅv̶̰͕̱̞̥̍ͣ̄̕e͕͙͖̬̜͓͎̤̊ͭ͐͝ṇ̰͎̱̤̟̭ͫ͌̌͢͠ͅ ̳̥̦ͮ̐ͤ̎̊ͣ͡͡n̤̜̙̺̪̒͜e̶̻̦̿ͮ̂̀c̝̘̝͖̠̖͐ͨͪ̈̐͌ͩ̀e̷̥͇̋ͦs̢̡̤ͤͤͯ͜s͈̠̉̑͘a̱͕̗͖̳̥̺ͬͦͧ͆̌̑͡r̶̟̖̈͘ỷ̮̦̩͙͔ͫ̾ͬ̔ͬͮ̌?̵̘͇͔͙ͥͪ͞ͅ

Offline smknjoe

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #21 on: Sat, 02 April 2016, 23:15:00 »
Right, they stopped offering VMware Player for free. Try it in Workstation with VMware tools sometime. You can get an evaluation copy for free and install it side by side with VB without causing any problems. You just can't run them at the same time. If you try it that way and still have trouble, I'll shut up about it. :) And on real hardware, I'll bet you have no trouble either.

VB guest-tools do not work as well as VMW guest-tools.

Do I wish I could use VB for free? Absolutely! In a commercial, production, data center...no way. Same goes for reliable desktop VMs.
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Offline KRKS

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #22 on: Sun, 03 April 2016, 03:01:46 »
I've also read this blog about linux's shortcomings on the desktop.

This sentence, along with you not stating any specific problems tells me enough. Just buy a new Mac and spare us BS.

Here it is, read it for yourself:

http://itvision.altervista.org/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.current.html
You missed my point(I was pointing out that you clearly just don't want it for whatever reason), but I've decided to read that article anyway. Estimating roughly:

5% is marked as fixed
10% is generalization(like the open-source community being hostile, yes there are *******s but they aren't that common).
10% is desktop-environment specific(and since GNOME and KDE are **** and I haven't used them for a while because of that I guess they're mostly right).
10% is pulse/systemd/other thing pushed on the majority which has a working alternative that the big distros don't want to use for whatever reason.
15% is complaints about third-party software that aren't actually fault of anyone on the Linux side(like Skype/NVIDIA stuff).
15% is just the author being locked in a "Linux should be Windows-like" mindset(like the complaint about case-sensitive filenames or the amount of forks/distros/etc.).
15% is distro specific, mainly faults of Ubuntu and it's derivatives(and it saddens me that people recommend them to newcomers).
The remaining 20% are things I don't know much about but based on the above I'm gonna take them with a few grains of salt.

But none of that matters since I "may as well not exist" according to the author, and I can't be arsed to revive my old Twitter account because I wasted enough of my time already.
The increasing power of Massdrop WILL kill the community group buys - don't come crying to me after it happens when you're too stupid to see it now. Join me in saving the community!

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Offline jacobolus

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #23 on: Sun, 03 April 2016, 03:58:48 »
So iLLucionist, are you going to answer some of the questions about your needs / use cases / preferences? Otherwise, I don’t think any of this discussion is going to be particularly helpful for you, as we don’t have enough context to give you meaningful advice.

Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #24 on: Sun, 03 April 2016, 05:41:50 »
Which part is slow? I’m guessing it’s the statistical analysis which is slow? None of those other things on your list should take excessive CPU power. What programming language/environment/libraries are you using for your statistical analysis, and what type of analysis, specifically? Are you running code multithreaded? On the GPU? Are you I/O bound? Memory bound? How optimized are your programs? ...

Getting a machine with more RAM could help a lot. My 13" “retina” Mac laptop has 16 GB of memory, and the last time I had <8GB was 7 years ago. I would find it very constricting to use a machine with 4 GB today. You could probably get a big boost with your current machine just by buying 8 GB of third-party memory.

For statistical analysis, I use SPSS (Java) and R. Both are CPU and I/O bound. SPSS especially is painstakingly slow. It has always been slow, but this is a new type of slow. Then I use homebrew and I have a lot of packages I compile myself, so raw CPU power would be nice to do it more quickly. I always do a huge load of multitasking. When I'm REALLY working, I usually have open: terminal + tmux + vim + python shell + Rstudio + spss + word + excel + keynote + texshop + illustrator / affinity designer + spotify + safari and some other apps on the side. And yes, my memory is almost always full I guess, judging from Activity Monitor. Oh, important: I also do virtualization to test what I develop on different distros and different environments.

My MacBook Pro feels especially slow while handling files, like downloading, or opening multiple files. It could be the wear and tear on the SSD. But it feels like it cannot handle all that multitasking anymore. It doesn't feel snappy. I literally have to sit and wait here and there on things like opening a Finder window, waiting for Terminal to open, etc. The small things that get annoying really quickly.

Quote
So my question is, what is best for coding?
In my opinion, the best on the market for “coding” generically, if you’re sitting at a desk, is a 27" iMac, even if you want to run Linux on it. As far as I can tell the hardware is better priced than a similarly specced machine + display from any other vendor [cheapest configured 27" iMac is $1800, a similar display from Dell is $1600 by itself (current Amazon price), before adding a computer]. Lots of display space to fit a decent number of editor windows and browser windows (you said webdev, so I assume you need to test everything in multiple browsers). For me, the nice display is worth a lot more w/r/t programmer productivity than some extra CPU cores. CPU and GPU performance on typical tasks is great, a big step up from your 2010 laptop.

Although I do admire the iMac, I think it is still really pricey for what is basically a laptop with a great display slapped on top of it. Also, the iMac's I have hadd ALWAYS failed on me, so I am a bit hesitant to buy an iMac. But is sure is attractive. Btw, I already have a great display hooked up to my MBP: Dell U2713HM.
[/quote]

[The Mac Pro is a very specific niche machine (which is additionally a few years out of date because Intel’s schedule has slipped in the past few years and we’re just finally getting the CPUs, displays, new USB/Thunderbolt ports, etc. which would call for it to be refreshed), not a general-purpose consumer workstation. It’s great for people with specific GPU or heavily parallelized CPU workloads, or folks who need to have maximum I/O. A smaller and smaller set of use cases aren’t handled by consumer hardware, and it sounds like yours aren’t among those. It’s not surprising that the Mac Pro doesn’t meet your needs.]

Yeah, I adore the Mac Pro. But I think it is very expensive. I know, if you would have to buy the spare parts yourself and build a machine with similar specs it is perhaps even more expensive and you're missing out on the form factor and the unique cooling. But still, I don't need 2 of those sick graphics card that can still not be easily used for raw computing power without special software.


If you ever need to run a bigger workload than your machine can manage locally, rent some time on a remote Linux server somewhere.


Yeah, I do have a server on the side with 16GB of ram. But I use that server for virtualization, mostly.


But you haven’t really given a full accounting of your criteria. Do you need to work out of a coffeeshop or on the couch sometimes? etc.


I use my MBP everywhere I can take it: at the couch, in bed, and I take it back and forth from and to the office daily. And when visiting clients. For mobile, I will not easily give up Apple. I really find PC laptops complete cr*p. But for the desktop, I could do my own build.


What text editor do you use? What’s your toolset for writing papers (LaTeX? MS Word? InDesign? Do you ever need to make diagrams?)? Are you a grad student? Assistant professor? Professional software engineer? What’s your computer budget? ...


Vim whenever possible. MS Word for academic papers (as a social scientist, all journals still demand MS Word and my colleagues exclusively use Word). For LaTeX I use texshop and/or vim. RStudio. Diagrams I usually make in Affinity Designer or Illustrator. I am a PhD Candidate AND a freelance consultant focusing on development of tailor-made scientific software and corporate I-O consultancy.

Just out of curiosity, what sort of systems programming?

I develop a lot of tool to read in and transform data, do calculations on it, and spit it out again. I also make a lot of tools for survey research: engines, report generators, automatic statistics analysis once a participant filled out a questionnaire. That sort of thing. And algorithms to predict behavior. Mostly statistics and academic software.
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Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #25 on: Sun, 03 April 2016, 05:43:57 »
For statistical analysis RAM is more important than CPU, that most contemporary ones run well, I have ran over 20 million records databases with 8 gigs only, with core 2 duo old machine, as some wrote, already, what part is slowing down your pc?

RAM to hold data? Yeah, I guess that regression / ANOVA is not that heavy on the CPU. But I know structural equation modeling and confirmatory factor analysis can be.

The thing is, oftentimes I do exploratory data analysis. Which basically means clicking around (SPSS) or giving commands to R to make sense of my data. For that an analysis taking up 1 minute is annoying, because it gets you out of your thought train. You have an idea, run analysis, quickly check it, go on with another idea that pops up.
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Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #26 on: Sun, 03 April 2016, 05:47:31 »
From my experience, a robust modern Linux distro will cause you equally as much pain as developing on OSX; that is, not a whole lot most of the time. They both have their issues that can crop up when a deadline is looming. These are computers we're dealing with, after all  :))

Fiddling with overwriting or symlinking around El Capitan's default utilities is prone to headaches just as much as any dependency conflict in Ubuntu. At least with Ubuntu the OS isn't designed to prevent you from changing things. Homebrew, as much as it has been a godsend in certain aspects, is basically one big hack for an OS without a true package manager.

I would have 0 hesitation about switching to Ubuntu or openSUSE, aside from my heavily-ingrained OSX-specific muscle memory.

I must say that maintaining Homebrow can be a pain in the *ss as well, especially after updating OS X. I always need to fix some stuff somewhere. But it is NEVER as bad as what I had to deal with with linux: config files overridden by tha package manager, or my desktop not booting up anymore all of a sudden. Or the package manager failing to update my grub appropriately and thus my machine wouldn't boot anymore.

My biggest fear of going the linux-route again is that I will have to deal with thing again like graphical desktops broken, kernel compilation issues or grub issues, ugly font rendering, slow browser on the desktop, gnome vs kde libraries conflicts, issues with sound and hardware GFX acceleration.

I have a PhD to finish and clients to serve. I literally do not have time to take a day to figure out what the hell is messed up this time again. I did that out of fun and curiosity, seeing it as a challenge when I was younger. But these days, a day not worked is a day no income.
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Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #27 on: Sun, 03 April 2016, 05:48:25 »
is this a gen 1 i7  or gen 2 sandybridge.


if it's gen 1, yea u need to upgrade,  if it's gen 2, you don't need to upgrade, you probably just need 16gigs of ram..


if you're SURE u need the cpu power,   go with the 4790k if you can overclock,  if you're not gonna overclock, then go with a 6700k..

I think first gen. Is the jump to sandy bridge so big in terms of performance?
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Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #28 on: Sun, 03 April 2016, 05:49:42 »
Homebrew, as much as it has been a godsend in certain aspects, is basically one big hack for an OS without a true package manager.

It's what keeps me sane on the Macs at work. Otherwise, I'd use Debian or Slackware exclusively.

Without Homebrew, OS X is dead to me. I need vim, python, ruby, compass and some other libraries that are REALLY old on stock OS X or just not there. Homebrew always saves my day. Up until Apple comes with upgrades.. which most of time means some fixing somewhere.
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Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #29 on: Sun, 03 April 2016, 05:50:22 »
Homebrew, as much as it has been a godsend in certain aspects, is basically one big hack for an OS without a true package manager.

It's what keeps me sane on the Macs at work. Otherwise, I'd use Debian or Slackware exclusively.
It most certainly does not keep me sane when I want a specific version of a package. Their versioning is wonky at best.

I wouldn't know, never wanted to go one version back. But isn't this an issue with most package managers?
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Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #30 on: Sun, 03 April 2016, 05:51:22 »
I am forced to code with a MacBook Pro at work and I hate it to the guts.

We do a lot with virtualization and recently we tried out docker for a new project.
It has to run in a Vagrant machine because a Linux Kernell is necessary for docker and it will take some time to run natively on OSX

The default terminal is a big joke, I am forced to use iterm2 plus heavy configuration to make it viable for me.
And I really hate the keyboard layout... If you have worked on linux or windows machines before you can flush all the hotkeys you know down the toilet because Apple tend to do it the 'Apple Way'. I afraight I will lose my sanity soon.
I am used to type on a HHKB with US-International layout, it works perfectly on win/linux but scumbag Apple has a totally different implementation which is totally useless for me.


If you have the chance, stay away from Apple products as far as possible.

What's wrong with the stock Terminal? What are you missing? I can imagine about the keymap. It takes a lot of adjustment and muscle memory before it becomes automatic.
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Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #31 on: Sun, 03 April 2016, 05:53:30 »
My personal preference is the Mac.  I've been fighting Windows for years, and I'm sick and tired of it.  Linux still seems a bit experimental and unstable to me, especially on the desktop, although things have improved considerably, but there are still far too many options to choose from.  OS X just works, looks nice, and basically gets out of the way and lets you do your work.

It will be interesting to see how a Mac at work goes - we still do a lot of Windows development.  I'll have to run that in a VM, but run everything else natively.

That's how I have seen it for years. But Macs are also getting increasingly expensive (here in the Netherlands, at least) and increasingly locked down / glued in my opinion. I find that scary considering that I would have to pay around 3000 euro's for a new MBP.
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Offline rowdy

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #32 on: Sun, 03 April 2016, 05:54:03 »
We do a lot with virtualization and recently we tried out docker for a new project.
It has to run in a Vagrant machine because a Linux Kernell is necessary for docker and it will take some time to run natively on OSX

Have you seen this?

https://blog.docker.com/2016/03/docker-for-mac-windows-beta/
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

NEC APC-H4100E | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED red | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED green | Link 900243-08 | CM QFR MX black | KeyCool 87 white MX reds | HHKB 2 Pro | Model M 02-Mar-1993 | Model M 29-Nov-1995 | CM Trigger (broken) | CM QFS MX green | Ducky DK9087 Shine 3 TKL Yellow Edition MX black | Lexmark SSK 21-Apr-1994 | IBM SSK 13-Oct-1987 | CODE TKL MX clear | Model M 122 01-Jun-1988

Ị̸͚̯̲́ͤ̃͑̇̑ͯ̊̂͟ͅs̞͚̩͉̝̪̲͗͊ͪ̽̚̚ ̭̦͖͕̑́͌ͬͩ͟t̷̻͔̙̑͟h̹̠̼͋ͤ͋i̤̜̣̦̱̫͈͔̞ͭ͑ͥ̌̔s̬͔͎̍̈ͥͫ̐̾ͣ̔̇͘ͅ ̩̘̼͆̐̕e̞̰͓̲̺̎͐̏ͬ̓̅̾͠͝ͅv̶̰͕̱̞̥̍ͣ̄̕e͕͙͖̬̜͓͎̤̊ͭ͐͝ṇ̰͎̱̤̟̭ͫ͌̌͢͠ͅ ̳̥̦ͮ̐ͤ̎̊ͣ͡͡n̤̜̙̺̪̒͜e̶̻̦̿ͮ̂̀c̝̘̝͖̠̖͐ͨͪ̈̐͌ͩ̀e̷̥͇̋ͦs̢̡̤ͤͤͯ͜s͈̠̉̑͘a̱͕̗͖̳̥̺ͬͦͧ͆̌̑͡r̶̟̖̈͘ỷ̮̦̩͙͔ͫ̾ͬ̔ͬͮ̌?̵̘͇͔͙ͥͪ͞ͅ

Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #33 on: Sun, 03 April 2016, 05:54:34 »
Did you use VMware with VMware-tools in the guest OS, or did you use VirtualBox? On actual hardware you should have no trouble.

VMware Workstation and Fusion are far better than VirtualBox. I know a lot of people who swear by VB, but I have problems with it every time I use it. Most recently, I tried VB about a month ago. The guest utilities (equivalent to vmware-tools), in particular, still suck. Better than they used to be (non-existant), but they don't work as well as vmware-tools.

I still swear by VMWare. It Just Works. For me at least.
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Offline rowdy

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #34 on: Sun, 03 April 2016, 05:56:00 »
Did you use VMware with VMware-tools in the guest OS, or did you use VirtualBox? On actual hardware you should have no trouble.

VMware Workstation and Fusion are far better than VirtualBox. I know a lot of people who swear by VB, but I have problems with it every time I use it. Most recently, I tried VB about a month ago. The guest utilities (equivalent to vmware-tools), in particular, still suck. Better than they used to be (non-existant), but they don't work as well as vmware-tools.

I still swear by VMWare. It Just Works. For me at least.

I swear by VirtualBox - does everything I need it to, from Windows 2000 up to 10 guests, various Linux distros, NetBSD, and I even installed XenServer into a VirtualBox VM - it worked!
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Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #35 on: Sun, 03 April 2016, 06:03:26 »
Did you use VMware with VMware-tools in the guest OS, or did you use VirtualBox? On actual hardware you should have no trouble.

VMware Workstation and Fusion are far better than VirtualBox. I know a lot of people who swear by VB, but I have problems with it every time I use it. Most recently, I tried VB about a month ago. The guest utilities (equivalent to vmware-tools), in particular, still suck. Better than they used to be (non-existant), but they don't work as well as vmware-tools.

I still swear by VMWare. It Just Works. For me at least.

I swear by VirtualBox - does everything I need it to, from Windows 2000 up to 10 guests, various Linux distros, NetBSD, and I even installed XenServer into a VirtualBox VM - it worked!

That's nice! Maybe I should try it again.
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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #36 on: Sun, 03 April 2016, 06:15:06 »
Docker is still in beta which is quite a risk for a development environment where several devs depend on.

With the default console is a lot wrong.

No colors, useless prompt, dont close on exit, no proper package manager (brew is garbage), biggest issue for me is the seperation between CMD and Ctrl, which is by far the most retardee thing I've seen in a while.

Mac will forever remain garbe for me...

Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #37 on: Sun, 03 April 2016, 06:33:17 »
Docker is still in beta which is quite a risk for a development environment where several devs depend on.

With the default console is a lot wrong.

No colors, useless prompt, dont close on exit, no proper package manager (brew is garbage), biggest issue for me is the seperation between CMD and Ctrl, which is by far the most retardee thing I've seen in a while.

Mac will forever remain garbe for me...

I agree with what you are saying, but I think you are also confusing some things. What you are saying is not strictly the Terminal APP as it is the configuration. Colors is shell configuration, prompt is shell configuration as well. Close on exit IS the app. Package manager, again, is not the Terminal app but software. And I agree on CMD vs Ctrl.

I do use the default Terminal app. I have used iterm2 but it used to crash for me. Perhaps that is fixed now.

What I find most annoying about the Terminal app, is that the F-keys (F1, F2, etc., not "function" keys like volume) are very difficult to use within the Terminal. And also it is difficult to get Terminal app to send particular keystrokes to apps because they are shortcuts for the Terminal app itself. But I had that with Konsole as well, so in that sense both Konsole and Terminal.app are equally worse.
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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #38 on: Sun, 03 April 2016, 08:46:29 »
you are definitely right, I agree with you. Some of the points I've mentioned are not directly caused by the terminal but they are related to it. And yes, it is ridiculous that you don't access the function keys in the first place but rather have to do it over the function layer. I as developer use the actual function keys more often as Vol+ / Vol-

I have no clue how can people seriously develop on a mac, Apple basically sh!ts on everything.
Their Java implementation is the most troublesome I've ever dealt with as developer, even MS has done this better.
Their AppDeveloper policy is malicious... you can't just develop IOS apps without be forced to buy their hardware because you've to sign it with it.

It is a unix system but with a custom kernell, therefore you can't just run native linux programs on it.
They sh!t all over standards, connectors, protocols and whatever...
You can't use the AppStore without an AppleID and you can't create one without setting a payment method.... I had to compile Xcode out of binarys I've found somewhere on the web because Apple wouldn't let me install it from their AppStore. And this is developer friendly?

Sorry for my bad language but those things just drives me crazy... Apple is a giant hole made of destroyed dreams and illusions where you think you matter. If the usual apple customer wouldn't be so quick with their debit cards, no dev. would actually care and I see no point being a part of all that...

And I am currently typing on a MacBook Pro my company gave me, which I'd love to just throw against a wall...

Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #39 on: Sun, 03 April 2016, 09:28:51 »
you are definitely right, I agree with you. Some of the points I've mentioned are not directly caused by the terminal but they are related to it. And yes, it is ridiculous that you don't access the function keys in the first place but rather have to do it over the function layer. I as developer use the actual function keys more often as Vol+ / Vol-

Doing real terminal productivity on a Mac can be a pain, agreed. For instance, I like mc (midnight comander) but cannot use it because of the function key issue.
[/quote]

I have no clue how can people seriously develop on a mac, Apple basically sh!ts on everything.
Their Java implementation is the most troublesome I've ever dealt with as developer, even MS has done this better.

Agreed. That's why SPSS sucks on a Mac. Still, IBM should support it and fix it for the price they are selling SPSS. And SPSS sucks anyway. But on a Mac, it is really really slow. I always have to do manual java fixing to get SPSS up and running.

It is a unix system but with a custom kernell, therefore you can't just run native linux programs on it.
They sh!t all over standards, connectors, protocols and whatever...
You can't use the AppStore without an AppleID and you can't create one without setting a payment method.... I had to compile Xcode out of binarys I've found somewhere on the web because Apple wouldn't let me install it from their AppStore. And this is developer friendly?

Xcode sucks. I hate it. As much as I like the idea of the swift language and having tried it out for real, Xcode sucks. It tries to do things for you that I do not want my IDE to do for me. Like NIBs and how you "connect" to outlets. How you "bind" UI to code. I HATE that. F**k ViewControllers, TableViews etc. It is SO unobtrusive what is going on, I try to stay away from it. I much rather write boilerplate myself to update views and tables rather then to rely on not knowing exactly how it is done behind the screen. And indeed, I thought people were overreacting about Xcode crashing. I thought "how bad can it really be". But it does crash.

And I am currently typing on a MacBook Pro my company gave me, which I'd love to just throw against a wall...

Thing is, I do think that Apple makes the best laptops out there. Best screens, best built-in keyboard. But now that everything is glued, they f**k you over with custom configuration like you always WANT some customization especially now that mem and all is glued. They take your money. They take your soul. But PC laptops are a whole different level of evil: sucky trackpads, sucky keyboards, sucky LCD's, sucky hinges, sucky battery life, paint coming off, noisy.

What the HELL is going on in PC land? If there would be a great PC laptop I would buy it instantly. However, then there is the battery life issue with linux on a laptop. Apple can be hated for all what they do, but they get one thing straight: battery life. My 2010 MBP still lasts 5.5-6 hours after almost 6 years of daily usage.

It is a shame that Apple puts laptop components in the iMac. And that they dumbed down the Mac Mini as it is now soo underpowered.

Honestly, if the Mac Mini would've been any good, I would've bought a max specced out mac mini and made a dual boot osx and linux (debian, ubuntu or arch).

Sigh...
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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #40 on: Sun, 03 April 2016, 10:07:10 »
I needed XCode for the dependencies not for the Editor, I am using vim/sublime Text 3 and PHP Storm for now. Lucky I haven't to work with XCode... I've started it by accident and disliked it on the first glance. And I've never worked with SPSS so I can't tell if it good or bad in that field.

I have just searched on the webs what is also bad on Mac OS beside the very few things I've mentioned before and there are a lot of things which would bother me insanely if I had to work on some certain fields.

If I had to do Java Development on a Mac, I would have turned down the job and looked for another one. But it's pesky PHP so I am fine for now (But I will still ask my boss for a Linux machine if I run into more problems with this notebook)

I have had a nice Dell XPS Laptop in my old job. That think was actually very nice, was basically a MacBook with darker aluminum but the battery life was not so pleasing. And I had to get rid of Ubuntus Unity....  The keyboard wasn't that bad at all but I've always typed on my HHKB anyway so the keyboard is not a dealbreaker for me.

I see it that way, Mac OS is for stupid users who wan't eyecandy.
Linux is for people who need productivity and actually develop software.

I think you are basically answering your own question, find a great notebook you like, install linux on it, be happy!
You could even install Linux on your macbook if you like the hardware that much (I still think it is not worth the money).

Yes you are right, the new Trackpad is the only thing I actually like about it. But there is no right click....

But what do you need a Laptop for? Can't you just do your work on a regular Desktop machine?

Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #41 on: Sun, 03 April 2016, 10:38:11 »
are right, the new Trackpad is the only thing I actually like about it. But there is no right click....

But what do you need a Laptop for? Can't you just do your work on a regular Desktop machine?

I work from home AND from the office AND onsite at clients' offices. So I will end up with either only a laptop or a laptop + a desktop.

Btw, there IS a right click: two finger touch.
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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #42 on: Sun, 03 April 2016, 11:22:20 »
I do find the workflow in OS X struggles for me because the window management never wants to do what I want it to do.

Installing BetterSnapTool helps a lot. Basically I want my windows to occupy the monitor fully, but OS X loves to have small windows floating around. When you want to make it bigger, it goes totally fullscreen in its own desktop which is cumbersome to switch between.

That and for the life of me I don't get why folders aren't at the top in Finder.

Having said all that, I don't like the path Windows is going down one bit right now with its forced updates and such. I question how long until OS X is the same, though, since iOS is already like that.

Linux offers good flexibility and freedom that the others don't seem to offer right now. The nice thing is you can run it over top of the other two (or even run Windows over Linux).
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Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #43 on: Sun, 03 April 2016, 12:20:49 »
I do find the workflow in OS X struggles for me because the window management never wants to do what I want it to do.

Window management indeed is a pain in the *ss on OSX. Especially the cmd+tab for apps / cmd+` for windows approach. But over the years, I got used to it and can somehow live with it. But I'd much rather have i3 or some other tiling window manager for serious productivity. But for that, I already have tmux in the terminal.

Installing BetterSnapTool helps a lot. Basically I want my windows to occupy the monitor fully, but OS X loves to have small windows floating around. When you want to make it bigger, it goes totally fullscreen in its own desktop which is cumbersome to switch between.

There is a fix for that, to make that button maximize instead of go full screen.

That and for the life of me I don't get why folders aren't at the top in Finder.

That is indeed ridiculous. Finally Finder got tabs. And cut STILL is not working.

Having said all that, I don't like the path Windows is going down one bit right now with its forced updates and such. I question how long until OS X is the same, though, since iOS is already like that.

Aside from a locked down win10 machine for gaming perhaps, I will stay the f**k away from NSA OS 10.

Linux offers good flexibility and freedom that the others don't seem to offer right now. The nice thing is you can run it over top of the other two (or even run Windows over Linux).

Except for systemd. That feels like an open source b*ttpl*g inserted so deep that it comes out of my mouth again. I am afraid when stallman / torvalds etc. are gone FOSS is screwed as well. What's next? gnome becoming usable? I do like linux because of the package management and the fact there is still alternatives on the desktop. But I think linux is less about choice than it used to be.
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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #44 on: Sun, 03 April 2016, 12:46:03 »
Note that SPSS and R can both be pretty slow on large amounts of data or significant computation. If you can do the same work with Numpy or Julia, or figure out how to move the bottlenecked parts of the R code to a compiled language, you might be able to get a big speed boost.

When I'm REALLY working, I usually have open: terminal + tmux + vim + python shell + Rstudio + spss + word + excel + keynote + texshop + illustrator / affinity designer + spotify + safari and some other apps on the side. And yes, my memory is almost always full I guess, judging from Activity Monitor. Oh, important: I also do virtualization to test what I develop on different distros and different environments.

Okay, if you’re going to keep using your laptop, even for another few months, I really recommend getting some more memory. http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/memory/Apple_MacBook_MacBook_Pro/Upgrade

8 GB is $50, and will make a big improvement to your current machine.

With that list of apps to use, Linux is going to be a bit tough, unless you can live with swapping {Excel, Word, Keynote} -> LibreOffice, Illustrator/Designer -> Inkscape, ...

Quote
Although I do admire the iMac, I think it is still really pricey for what is basically a laptop with a great display slapped on top of it.
This is not a fair summary. The power / thermal capacity of an iMac is much greater than any laptop, and as a result the internals are much beefier.

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #45 on: Sun, 03 April 2016, 12:48:35 »
What I find most annoying about the Terminal app, is that the F-keys (F1, F2, etc., not "function" keys like volume) are very difficult to use within the Terminal.
You can configure a Mac so that the F keys are the default, and fn + key handles the volume/etc. functions.

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #46 on: Sun, 03 April 2016, 12:51:57 »
I see it that way, Mac OS is for stupid users who wan't eyecandy.
Linux is for people who need productivity and actually develop software.
Uh huh... or, y’know, for people who have different preferences than you do. Maybe ones who don’t stoop to insulting broad groups of strangers who they don’t know anything about.

Quote
Yes you are right, the new Trackpad is the only thing I actually like about it. But there is no right click....
On a Mac, you have a choice of Ctrl+click, two finger tap, or two finger hold + thumb click. All three are in my experience easier to use than trackpads with discrete left/right hardware buttons.

Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #47 on: Sun, 03 April 2016, 13:14:05 »
I see it that way, Mac OS is for stupid users who wan't eyecandy.
Linux is for people who need productivity and actually develop software.
Uh huh... or, y’know, for people who have different preferences than you do. Maybe ones who don’t stoop to insulting broad groups of strangers who they don’t know anything about.

Quote
Yes you are right, the new Trackpad is the only thing I actually like about it. But there is no right click....
On a Mac, you have a choice of Ctrl+click, two finger tap, or two finger hold + thumb click. All three are in my experience easier to use than trackpads with discrete left/right hardware buttons.

The "eyecandy" on a Mac is what I read as "consistent non-lagging hardware accelerated graphics that also do not drain your battery". That, plus great font rendering which obviously still sucks on both Linux and Windows. Of course, you can dislike Mac for the UI. But it is one thing they got right: optimized animations and hardware acceleration. Compiz or whatever is in there today on linux still lags. Of course YMMV
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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #48 on: Sun, 03 April 2016, 13:16:41 »
Don't mind me, and apologies for my harsh opinion. I am very angry working on a Device I totally hate. My mac does lagg.

Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Honest Question: Linux for Coding on the Desktop vs. OSX
« Reply #49 on: Sun, 03 April 2016, 13:18:03 »
Don't mind me, and apologies for my harsh opinion. I am very angry working on a Device I totally hate. My mac does lagg.

Agreed, my Mac lags as well now. But I take it is because it is old now. Am I mistaken? From Yosemite onwards the OS feels slow. But I always thought it is my aging Mac.
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