Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo

[GenEric35]

Thanks Imav, i'll give it a few weeks to get get use to it.
To quote Bob Dylan,

...
Well, now time passed and now it seems
Everybody's havin' them dreams.
...
Half the people can be part right all of the time, an'
Some of the people can be all right part of the time,
But all the people can't be all right all of the time.
I think Abraham Lincoln said that.
...

[GenEric35]

It is not so much the domes that need a little break in. It is the springs because the HHKB Pro is a capacitive keyboard the key will not register until the spring creates the correct capacitance for the key to register. I have seen behaviour similar to this on new Topre boards as well. But after a break in period (the amount varies) they no longer have this problem. Also the activation point on all of my Topre boards is slightly higher than the dome collapse point not by much but definitely before dome collapse. If you stick with it and get to the point where you finally get to the point of "Good feeling of oneness with cup rubber" you will understand why this board cost so much. Also you will really only get that feeling after using the board for a while and then you most likely will only get it when in the grove at first later as your fingers really adjust to it you can get it allot more. But be warned to get there you really should only type on the Topre until your fingers adjust. Later you can switch between boards and your fingers will remember what to do after a short readjustment (for me a couple of hours).

When I moved off my Model M to my 87U it took me about a month to fully adjust to the Topre switch and during that time I did not type on the Model M at all. Today I still like my Model M but I would not want to type on it all day any more. Once I adjusted it took another week or so before I had the "Good feeling of oneness with cup rubber" and ever since that happened my Topre boards have been my goto boards ever since.

thanks, that was very interesting, I didn't actually know if the spring's capacitance was used(since it already contributed, in a mechanical way) didn't expect the spring to have two jobs, I will definitely give it a full month.

[ch_123]

I haven't felt a Topre but this Quietkey feels just how you guys described a Topre except it is about $300 cheaper and isn't capacitive. And it's ugly and yellowed too.

Except of course for the fact that you have to bottom out on a rubber dome to get them to work. And they'd be a good deal more stiff than the Topres

[patrickgeekhack]

I agree with all of that, even that the keys fire half way, the problem is, i can manage to release right after the bump without it registering the key press, it's not something i can do on all keys all the time, but the time it takes me is about 5-6 attempts to find a key that will fail to register if released after the bump, and the ratio is the same on a dell rubber dome, that sells new, for 8$ and the guy always has 2 crates of those new 8$ dell boards, maybe it will get more accurate when the dome get a bit more usage, but cheap dell don't seem to vary much with time. Thanks for sharing, it's true almost on many of my keyboards i had these moments where the board sudenly felt different(great), probably it was just me adapting to it.

You could well have a defective unit. Though this is rare in the Topre/HHKB world, it's not impossible. I sure hope it's not a defective unit. You'll be able to tell after a month with the keyboard for sure.

[Rajagra]

4-no tactile feedback what soever, rubber dome, there is no way to know your key registered, just like a rubber dome you have to trust that it will register, and just like a rubber dome you can press it and make the dome collapse without the key press registering, i can release the key after the dome collapsing and the key has not registered

I may be repeating what others have said, but it's worth saying. My Topre board (currently using a Realforce 87U, but I have a HHKB Pro too) does not fail in the way yours does there. I just tried to replicate your problem, pressing keys so I went past the peak force point, but without bottoming out. Worked properly every time. Even when I had my eyes closed.

If mine behaved like yours does now, I would consider it an overpriced piece of junk too, no matter how good it felt in other ways.

Maybe yours does need breaking in, I don't really know. But maybe it's also that you are comparing it to buckling springs, and that's kind of unfair. BS switches are pretty extreme, they are like agricultural engineering. Topres are intended to be more refined. You'd really be hard pushed to find better examples of keyboards from the opposite ends of the spectrum.


Aside from that, it's good to hear an alternative viewpoint. :smile:

[rdjack21]

This is a valuable post because in my following of the "OMG I JUST GOT A TOPRE" threads the people whose favorite keyboard in their sig was an ALPS or a Buckling Spring often are disappointed with Topres.

I mean, there's no law saying you have to try EVERY switch.  Well, maybe it was in the Geekhack forum registration agreement.

Yes and I have said the same many times to those that have a BS board and want to try the Topre. The Topre is such a radical change from a BS or the alps that it is hard to adjust to it when you are coming off such a heavy switch. And what can be worse ,if you really do like that BS board, is that after using the Topre and I would think any lighter switch board for some time it is hard to go back to the BS board and use it all day long with out your fingers starting to hurt.

[rdjack21]

You could well have a defective unit. Though this is rare in the Topre/HHKB world, it's not impossible. I sure hope it's not a defective unit. You'll be able to tell after a month with the keyboard for sure.

Hopefully the board was purchased from Elitekeboards because if it is defective they will replace it. Topre is anal about quality and wants the board shipped back to Japan so it can be evaluated to ensure that the same type of defect does not happen again. Which is one of the reasons their are so few defective Topre boards.

[hacfed]

Hopefully the board was purchased from Elitekeboards because if it is defective they will replace it. Topre is anal about quality and wants the board shipped back to Japan so it can be evaluated to ensure that the same type of defect does not happen again. Which is one of the reasons their are so few defective Topre boards.

That's massively reassuring. And in response to the whole idea of BS and Topre boards being polar opposites, well, that they may be.. but I have to say I'm happy typing on either without any kind of re-adjustment period. Though, and it's important to note, in the beginning I had to type on the HHKB exclusively for quite a while -  several days - to 'get it'. And finally, after many weeks, the whole navigation keys issue is an issue no more. Frankly, a full size, nay even a tenkeyless feels like overkill.

I think if after a couple of weeks the OP feels like the board is junk, maybe it should be returned for another. I'd hate to sound like a blind fanatic, but the majority of HHKB owners do love them, am I right? In any case, they are very easily sold on, so no worries there.

Just my "me too" 2c.

[microsoft windows]

Hopefully the board was purchased from Elitekeboards because if it is defective they will replace it. Topre is anal about quality and wants the board shipped back to Japan so it can be evaluated to ensure that the same type of defect does not happen again. Which is one of the reasons their are so few defective Topre boards.

I recall reading that in Japan many companies strive to have a good reputation by making good quality products. This is true in some ways throughout the entire region with members of a Chinese milk company being sentenced to death for letting contaminated milk get by. While the consequences might not be as high, companies in the region tend to strive to maintain a good reputation amongst the people.

[o2dazone]

I felt the same way you did. "$250 for this???", after about a week, I felt less like that, and after about a month, I considered getting a second one. I'd like to hear a follow up review, perhaps requoting your sticking points in your OP and give us some insight of what you think after a week, and then after a month.

Thanks for the immediate review. Glad to know I'm not the only one who felt that way when they first got an HHKB (I've got two now, and haven't been convinced of needing anything else)

[GenEric35]

yes, so far it's been only 5 days, I will follow up on it, thanks

[maxlugar]

I recall reading that in Japan many companies strive to have a good reputation by making good quality products. This is true in some ways throughout the entire region with members of a Chinese milk company being sentenced to death for letting contaminated milk get by. While the consequences might not be as high, companies in the region tend to strive to maintain a good reputation amongst the people.

What???

How is you post relevant to this thread.  Are you really triying to compare a Japanese computer hardware company like Topre with Chinese milk dairies becasue they are in the same region (i.e. Asia)?

Yikes.

[ch_123]

How is you post relevant to this thread.

It's an MS Windows post! Relevance is irrelevant!

[Rajagra]

Besides, there's no point dying over spoilt milk.

[ch_123]

*drum roll*

[microsoft windows]

It's an MS Windows post! Relevance is irrelevant!

I was using an anecdote to explain a possible cause of the high price and quality of Topre keyboards. TO sum it up in a nut shell, in that culture, it is important to have a good reputation.

[ch_123]

That, or some very corrupt officials were facilitating companies selling such substandard produce, and the Chinese government needed to sweep it under the rug so people wouldn't ask any questions.

[Xuan]

It's funny how almost every windows post is followed by a ch_123 one replying to it

[ch_123]

I think of it as restoring balance to the world.

[ricercar]

[itlnstln]

Thanks for your help.

[ch_123]

Any follow up thoughts GenEric?

yup, just like all the rubber dome keyboard, you can press the key until the dome collapse and give you a 'tactile' feedback, then release the key without it registering anything

Not on my one!

it's just something I will get use to, but I was disapointed at how customizable the dip switches were, it allows to assign fn to left alt and/or left windows key, but the right alt and right windows key are just hardcoded there

Because there's a dedicated Fn above the right Alt?

[GenEric35]

Any follow up thoughts GenEric?



Not on my one!



Because there's a dedicated Fn above the right Alt?

above the right alt? if we're talking about the same Fn it's 2 inches to the right and one row above, try to reach that with your thumb

the idea is that Fn is pressed with the pinky, and there is a bunch of keys in the upper right that are pressed with the pinky, and some of them require that Fn key to be held down

it's perfect like it is, for someone who types with 2 fingers

[ch_123]

Mhmm, now that you say it, it would be much better beside the right Alt alright.

[GenEric35]

The HHKB function key layout is designed for "clawing". Move your index finger to a cursor key, and your pinky hovers over the Fn key. If you want to touch type, you need to assign the second Fn key left of the space bar. I have that, and use both Fn's. FWIIW, some ergo "experts" say clawing is bad because there's more stress to the hand. I agree the HHKB is not much of a Hacker's keyboard because of lack of configuration options and configurable extra keys at the bottom row (example: you want Colemak back space instead of Ctrl, even if you move Ctrl to the bottom row with software, you need to give up another important key). Apart from that the layout is a winner.

I would agree with that, the new location of the Ctrl(where caps lock usualy is) I think is better than the standard layouts that have it all in the bottom right corner

[bigpook]

Esc right above Tab is nice too, as is Delete above Enter.

[ch_123]

I have that key mapped to backspace. Are you an Emacs user?

[GenEric35]

EDIT: 1 Month in, for some reason the keys started feeling more comfortable, probably what is referred to as good feeling of oneness with cup rubber.
I guess the keyboard grow on me as time went by and I'll keep it.
My current position on it is it cost a lot, too much, at this price PFU should bundle it with key puller, roof, wrist rest and carrying case, or sell it the same price as the good mechanical keyboards.

[cheater1034]

I just got my filco cherry brown tenkeyless, I almost ordered a hhkb pro instead, but I'm glad I didn't because this filco is everything I could have hoped for of the hhkb - and much cheaper

[patrickgeekhack]

EDIT: 1 Month in, for some reason the keys started feeling more comfortable, probably what is referred to as good feeling of oneness with cup rubber.
I guess the keyboard grow on me as time went by and I'll keep it.
My current position on it is it cost a lot, too much, at this price PFU should bundle it with key puller, roof, wrist rest and carrying case, or sell it the same price as the good mechanical keyboards.

I'm glad to hear that the keyboard grew on you. Enjoy!

[ch_123]

I just got my filco cherry brown tenkeyless, I almost ordered a hhkb pro instead, but I'm glad I didn't because this filco is everything I could have hoped for of the hhkb - and much cheaper

How do you know that unless you've tried it?

[cheater1034]

How do you know that unless you've tried it?

I didn't say the hhkb/topre was bad or good - I just said the cherry brown filco is about what I hoped the hhkb would be (i never tried cherry browns before either) - The hhkb/topre could certainly be better but I wasn't expecting better so i'm satisfied.

[lal]

How do you know that unless you've tried it?

He said that his hopes were fulfilled by the Filco, which means it is exactly what he wanted.  He obviously doesn't want to spend hundreds of dollars just to see if a Topre *might* be even better.  Not everyone can throw around that much money out of curiosity.

[lal]

Bad timing, but there you have it

[leos]

GenEric35 if you are happy now with your HHKB2 Pro please switch this :juggle: in your signature to at least this one :smile:

We dont wanna give the anti-anti and x anti topre league more food against Topres "good feeling of oneness with cup rubber"

[GenEric35]

hey i'm juggling witht he idea of dying the keys, here ill change it to this cuz it moves :target:

[rdjack21]

Here I'll help motivate you:


You will note that even the F and J keys have been dyed to a slightly darker color.

NOTE: I can't take credit for the dye job on this board but I have to admit it looks fantastic.

[OldBoy]

Reading through the thread, although I don't own an HHKB, I felt the need to summarize why it might be valuable, and to attempt to justify why it might cost what it does.

Layout: no windows key (feature or bug depending on preferences), placement of ctrl, backspace etc.

Switches:  capacitative is cool.  Patent leads to higher prices.

Rubber: superior grade vs. ordinary rubber cup.

Key Weights: 45g uniform.  Deemed ideal by some people.

Dip switches: offers some limited hardware-based flexibility.

Small form factor: takes up less room on desk, easier to carry, allows for optimal positioning of mouse or trackball.  Lighter than other topre boards.

Aethetics:  red esc key, possibility of blank keys, minimalism.

Quality build: as shown by tear-down by ripster in other posts.  Importance of quality control to Topre corp.

Japaneseness/Geek cred/Oneness with cup-rubber: other intangibles

Overall typing experience:  important when you really will max out the rated number of keystrokes of a board

Comparative cost of other baskets of goods: trips to RSI docs (or should I say first five minutes with an RSI doc), cost a nice dinner out (in many cities), cost of a parking ticket (in some cities)

If anyone has anything to add, I hope you will let me know.

[bigpook]

Thats a pretty thorough list, nice. But value is personal (?). If you think its worth the money then you buy it, right?
If you think its overpriced and pretentious, then you pass.

That usually works for me. I should add the the price paid has very little to do with what I think the widget actually cost to manufacture. I am thinking there is a pretty fat margin on the HHKB and the Realforce.

And yes, the HHKB is a sweet keyboard.

[bigpook]

dude, respect the 10 post rule...damn. : )

[elbowglue]

You should seriously consider Topre realforce as well.  You can always map keys to HHKB layout using autohotkey, and have a lot of extra keys to play with.  This is what I would do if I wanted to do the HHKB, I would buy a Realforce 87u, map keys to HHKB...  it is a little bigger, but the biggest complaint about the HHKB pro is the lack of arrow keys, which you could have with the 87u.

[cheater1034]

I don't understand why people hate the windows key so much - it has a purpose in windows - and you can certainly map it to do some other useful tasks if it was desired.

It has plenty of uses, conventional or non-conventional, and it isn't at all obstrusive (either get a bigger space bar or an unsightly space on both sides of the bottom of the keyboard - yuck)

Having a problem with the windows logo is different, but people should either fix that or ignore it - but either way stop complaining.

[bigpook]

Its not so much the key, its just the logo. But yeah, get over it.

[bigpook]

whats the deal with the arrow keys?
Fn + up/down works fine for me. You got to lose something with the small form factor, but is
it really a bother with the two key combo?

[rdjack21]

- no arrow keys, no arrow keys, no arrow keys.   Unless you're Japanese.  Clear roundeye discrimination.

Yea but then you have to put up with the short right shift key which is really a pain in the a**. I know I have a few boards with the same layout in that area of the board and the small shift key continues to give me issues even though I have been typing on them for a few months now.

[ch_123]

Switches:  capacitative is cool.  Patent leads to higher prices.

They're manufactured by the people who own the patent, so it's really combination high build quality, limited numbers and just being priced high.

[kishy]

They're manufactured by the people who own the patent, so it's really combination high build quality, limited numbers and just being priced high.

You forgot, "the company thinks people are big enough suckers to pay exorbitant amounts of money for something that costs a fraction of the price to build".

Yay, my first-ever anti-Topre comment!

Edit:
It's not MY belief that you're a sucker if you pay for Topre. It's my belief that the manufacturer thinks you are...not quite the same.

[rdjack21]

Yay, my first-ever anti-Topre comment!

Edit:
It's not MY belief that you're a sucker if you pay for Topre. It's my belief that the manufacturer thinks you are...not quite the same.

LOL I guess I one of the biggest suckers out there then because I have quite a few of them And intend to get a few more

[patrickgeekhack]

LOL I guess I one of the biggest suckers out there then because I have quite a few of them And intend to get a few more

Self-proclaimed biggest sucker?

[ch_123]

You forgot, "the company thinks people are big enough suckers to pay exorbitant amounts of money for something that costs a fraction of the price to build".

Wow, you're right. I better stop buying... everything?