Uniform 45g Novatouch (Topre) breaking in/getting used to — any tips/opinions?

[NewbieOneKenobi]

The switch is Topre, but the keyboard isn't native. The exact board is Cooler Master Novatouch. It has Cherry-compatible ABS keycaps, for which I'm ordering a set of white PBT blanks as replacement. There are some differences for the worse compared to RealForce, but it simply cost me 1/3 of the costs of getting a real Topre board from here, so I caved in and bought it.

I've hear capacitives require some 'breaking in' compared to other switches and perhaps more getting used to on the user's side. And all switches require an adaptation period anyway. So either that or perhaps this isn't for me or I'm doing something wrong.

My current experience is like this:

Despite the 10 g/cN rated difference between this (45) and MX blues (55), this thing feels as heavy as blacks or Buckling Springs on a bad day, plus it sends pangs of pain straight to the brachial bicep. Not like the insidious pains I know from blues but more like pure, clean fatigue pains in the muscles and pressure on forearm bones and to a lesser extent even elsewhere in the body. I've heard people say Topre causes fatigue, but it's still quite surprising, especially of a 45g-rated switch.

It kinda can be typed on lightly without bottoming out, but the nature of the switch makes it much harder and uncomfortable compared to the same light cruisin' on blues, which are supposed to be inferior for typing purposes.

I had some 2800 words of translation to do from half past nine to noon, nothing to worry about with blues, and I couldn't really do it with this here switch. The only case when I could actually type fast was when I had entire sentences in my mind to hammer in, then it was fast all right and even felt nice (and light), especially when hitting straight from above, in a vertical finger motion.

Otherwise it feels slow, resistant, not as responsive as any Cherry, including blue, which I use in a bit of a piano fashion, so to say, by which I mean my fingers form a flatter arch than most typists' and obviously different from typing on a keyboard that's resting in your lap, for example.

How was your own initial experience? Do you recally anything similar to this? If yes, did it pass eventually? How soon (or late)?

[need]

My brand new Novatouch works beautifully after a tedious silencing mod, and I find the upstroke way more responsive that cherry blues. This is so helpful in getting from one key to the next.

My first impression is it's too responsive to a point of being sensitive. After some time in getting used to, I find hitting the keys in a linked and light matter is the best for it's light weight.

[quasistellar]

I've never felt an MX blue that was lighter than 45g Topre, but maybe yours is just really broken in?

As for breaking in Topre, there isn't really any difference that I can tell. You may benefit from Hypersphere's silencing rings, as they will ever so slightly lower the switch from its topmost position, which will make it actuate ever so slightly sooner. It's minor, but noticeable (to me). I really like light, tactile switches so I love it, but it's not for everyone.

If you've got good blues and you're used to not bottoming out, you may want to stick with them. I always bottom out with my typing, so I prefer a dampened feel with no steep spring rate ramping at the bottom of the stroke.

Also FYI: Novatouch isn't a clone; it's real Topre. It's the case construction that's inferior to other topre such as realforce

[nmur]

the majority of the resistance from topre is a the top of the downstroke, ie until the dome collapses

by installing aftermarket silencing rings, you eliminate a part of that initial downstroke, putting the dome in a partially collapsed state



depending on the thickness of your rings, the weight of the switch can be reduced significantly. i've done this to two of my topre boards, because i prefer it a lot

[NewbieOneKenobi]

My brand new Novatouch works beautifully after a tedious silencing mod, and I find the upstroke way more responsive that cherry blues. This is so helpful in getting from one key to the next.

I've got none of those but IIRC Deksthority says the o-rings can be used for that too. Does it take a lot of skill, tampering with the domes/switches?

My first impression is it's too responsive to a point of being sensitive. After some time in getting used to, I find hitting the keys in a linked and light matter is the best for it's light weight.

I sometimes end up using too much force when the switch is too light, so perhaps I misidentified the sensation here. What I'm 100% sure of is that none of the gliding swarmcloud of fingers I remember from typing on other switches is remotely possible here. (With blues it was, to a certain extent.)

I've never felt an MX blue that was lighter than 45g Topre, but maybe yours is just really broken in?

It has seen a lot of heavy use, I must have hammered a couple million words into it (<10M), but I'm not sure how much difference that would make. I've checked to see if Scroll Lock, Pause, function keys etc. feel different than letter keys, but I'm not sensing much difference. Perhaps a little, but it could be confirmation bias.

What's sure is I must have a lot of intimate familiarity with the blue switch by now,  compared to two days and only <5K words with Topre, so perhaps muscle memory is doing its job.

As for breaking in Topre, there isn't really any difference that I can tell. You may benefit from Hypersphere's silencing rings, as they will ever so slightly lower the switch from its topmost position, which will make it actuate ever so slightly sooner. It's minor, but noticeable (to me). I really like light, tactile switches so I love it, but it's not for everyone.

I might look into that.

If you've got good blues and you're used to not bottoming out, you may want to stick with them. I always bottom out with my typing, so I prefer a dampened feel with no steep spring rate ramping at the bottom of the stroke.

It depends on the day. On a happy light day I can type without bottoming out, by now, through sheer muscle adaptation over months of use, but aching fingers or greater typing speeds change this. When I force myself to 100 wpm or so, it's always with bottoming out, and the keyboard is quite unforgiving about that; it also slows me down compared to a good rubber dome. On the other hand, at slower (but not too slow) speeds I probably almost never bottom out unless it's space or backspace. I like a vigorous response, but my favourite feature in any keyboard is to just be able to move on to the next key asap. If Unicomp ever makes a Beam Spring with modern layout and modern key combos, I'll probably buy it right away.

Also FYI: Novatouch isn't a clone; it's real Topre. It's the case construction that's inferior to other topre such as realforce

Yeah, that's what I meant: real but possibly inferior switch, and bad case, caps etc. I didn't want to call this real Topre and I overdid it.

the majority of the resistance from topre is a the top of the downstroke, ie until the dome collapses

Some of the time I succeed at applying just the right amount of strength, but I'm finding it difficult. Actually, I'm almost sure I find the tactility of my rubber dome IBMs easier to adapt to.

by installing aftermarket silencing rings, you eliminate a part of that initial downstroke, putting the dome in a partially collapsed state

depending on the thickness of your rings, the weight of the switch can be reduced significantly. i've done this to two of my topre boards, because i prefer it a lot

I think I'll have to look into that. Is it easy to damage the keyboard when installing the rings?

***

I have one more idea — spacebar. Time for the springs to take a walk.

[need]

Below are the links for the mod, really cheap and easy.

I have some doubts at first, but no joke it works really well.
I'm surprised by how time consuming it gets though, mainly because I kept closing the case and opening it again many many times, in order to test out the effects of different thicknesses.
My conclusion is to get it as thin as you can, as there's really not much noticeable difference in sound.

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49046.0

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65853.0;nowap

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65821.msg1540860#msg1540860

Materials I bought that are enough for two full Novatouch mod:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/361409102386?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251981011804?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&var=550847253035&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

[quasistellar]

As far as internal keyboard mods go, it's one of the easiest. It's a bit time consuming, though, and try not to let the rubber separate from the PCB.

[NewbieOneKenobi]

'Mmmkay, so after a couple of days I'm still finding it quite resistant, quite more so than Blues. I can see why it's rated 45 g, but at the same time I think more force always gets used than really is necessary for mere actuation, which is the cause of problems. In effect, it ends harder than Blues to type on. I don't dislike the feel, it's unique, it's rubber dome and it's mech at the same time, but it's hard. Associations with vintage Cherry blacks definitely come to mind. I've taken typing tests, and I tend to get the exact same numbers on both, which suggests that whatever resistance I subjectively feel isn't really slowing me down compared to blues. In fact, given I'm only a new user of Topre and a veteran user of blues, it's probably reasonable to suspect that I'm going to have better/faster results with Topre given some time than I had with blues (since they are currently the same despite my lack of familiarity with Topre). I can't really say which board my fingers prefer. I believe I'll be tempted to try modern browns (no experience yet) and reds just to be sure.

Next, an accurate way of describing how typing on this one feels is similar to x-scissors on a very springy board that shoots right back at you, except for high travel. The experience with Topre is making me appreciate scissors all the more.

[phoible]

I find the Novatouch to be somewhat sluggish and not nearly as tactile as Matias Quiet Clicks (the tactile point is more of a graded resistance than a sharp bump like with the QCs). It also feels like it takes a while for the keys to rebound when pressed, but maybe that's just my perception. I don't actually type much slower on the NT - it just feels like I'm typing in molasses.

I silenced mine with Hypersphere's rings, in the hopes that it would improve things, and while that did make it much quieter, the keyboard still feels sluggish. I'm also using Max Keyboard PBT caps, although I don't think that should affect things much (I started out with the barebones model).

I ended up going back to my v80-MTS and then to an Infinity Ergodox with Quiet Clicks.

I'm thinking about selling it since it was pretty expensive and I don't really use it much (thought it would be my endgame board, but nope). Other than Cherry MX Blue, it's the only switch I've used that I don't actually like (the ones I like include Matias Quiet Click, MX Brown, and Buckling Spring).

The truth is that there are a whole bunch of different types of switches, and opinions definitely vary on which is best (it's all subjective). A lot of people think that Topre is the cat's meow, but it doesn't have to be for you.

[NightCabbage]

I find the Novatouch to be somewhat sluggish and not nearly as tactile as Matias Quiet Clicks (the tactile point is more of a graded resistance than a sharp bump like with the QCs). It also feels like it takes a while for the keys to rebound when pressed, but maybe that's just my perception. I don't actually type much slower on the NT - it just feels like I'm typing in molasses.

The truth is that there are a whole bunch of different types of switches, and opinions definitely vary on which is best (it's all subjective). A lot of people think that Topre is the cat's meow, but it doesn't have to be for you.

Ah, see I'm tossing up between a Topre Type Heaven, and either a Matias Tactile Pro or Quiet Pro! Having a really hard time deciding... So, the Matias QC keys are much more tactile? Coz I like tactile... Do you know how much more tactile the Matias Click is compared with the Quiet Click?

[Polymer]

Are you trying to type without bottoming out?  If so stop it...You're not doing yourself any favors in a silly attempt to do something like that. 

45g Topre is lighter than MX Blues..The only difference is blues let you get momentum and the startup force is less so it feels a bit different. 

But it does sound like to me, that with the flatter arch on your fingers, that you're doing something in an attempt to not bottom out..and that is probably feeling really uncomfortable and you're spending more energy in an attempt to do that..and that's where this pain is coming from.

If you type in a normal way, there should be no way this is creating a problem like that....

Or go to Variable...so easy on your hands...

[phoible]

Ah, see I'm tossing up between a Topre Type Heaven, and either a Matias Tactile Pro or Quiet Pro! Having a really hard time deciding... So, the Matias QC keys are much more tactile? Coz I like tactile... Do you know how much more tactile the Matias Click is compared with the Quiet Click?

If you want the most tactile switch available, go for the Matias switches.

The Matias Keys have a pretty sharp tactile bump. A lot more pronounced than Cherry's Tactile MX switches (so much so that I find my finger stopping before I bottom out), and a bit higher (at the top of the keystroke rather than midway like the Cherry).

I haven't used the Matias Click (too loud - I had a Unicomp at work, and one of my coworkers didn't like it). But, from what I hear, it feels almost identical to the Quiet Click.

[NewbieOneKenobi]

Are you trying to type without bottoming out?  If so stop it...You're not doing yourself any favors in a silly attempt to do something like that. 

45g Topre is lighter than MX Blues..The only difference is blues let you get momentum and the startup force is less so it feels a bit different. 

But it does sound like to me, that with the flatter arch on your fingers, that you're doing something in an attempt to not bottom out..and that is probably feeling really uncomfortable and you're spending more energy in an attempt to do that..and that's where this pain is coming from.

If you type in a normal way, there should be no way this is creating a problem like that....

Or go to Variable...so easy on your hands...

I'm not having much luck trying to type in various ways, though I've noticed my fingers adapting in a bit of a similar way to how it works on blues. There are moments this feels better than on blues, but not consistently. I would probably need to spend about half a day typing on blues again to compare and see if it isn't just simply fatigue, I guess. I've been switching a bit these last couple of days, and at least once I've caught myself actually looking forward to Novatouch's turn vs Majestouch. I'm trying to give NT more time, to see if there's any change.

[Polymer]

I've been switching a bit these last couple of days, and at least once I've caught myself actually looking forward to Novatouch's turn vs Majestouch. I'm trying to give NT more time, to see if there's any change.

That's sort of how it happens...You start switching back and forth and you start realizing, hey, I actually like Topre...a lot...

I still like Cherry and for gaming I absolutely prefer it....but there is something very enjoyable about Topre..

[losing_ctrl]

How do these switches rank with respect to quietness? I am thinking specifically comparing the noise level of Matias Quiet Click vs regular Topre vs silenced Topre?

This thread is very interesting to me, as I am switching back and forth between regular and silenced Topre these days, but I've never tried the Quiet Clicks and the QCs seem very tempting to me, I love tactility. FYI I've tried to listen carefully to numerous YouTube vids, but I find the audio to be less than reliable.

[quasistellar]

I've been switching a bit these last couple of days, and at least once I've caught myself actually looking forward to Novatouch's turn vs Majestouch. I'm trying to give NT more time, to see if there's any change.

That's sort of how it happens...You start switching back and forth and you start realizing, hey, I actually like Topre...a lot...

I still like Cherry and for gaming I absolutely prefer it....but there is something very enjoyable about Topre..

Similar to my situation.  I don't like Topre at all for gaming for some reason, but I absolutely prefer it for actual work and typing.

One switch isn't the be-all-end-all for everyone, and one person might not even prefer one switch for all uses.  Variety is the spice of life!

[phoible]

How do these switches rank with respect to quietness? I am thinking specifically comparing the noise level of Matias Quiet Click vs regular Topre vs silenced Topre?

This thread is very interesting to me, as I am switching back and forth between regular and silenced Topre these days, but I've never tried the Quiet Clicks and the QCs seem very tempting to me, I love tactility. FYI I've tried to listen carefully to numerous YouTube vids, but I find the audio to be less than reliable.

Silenced Topre is a tiny bit quieter than Matias Quiet Click, which is a lot quieter than pretty much everything else.

The unsilenced Novatouch is actually pretty loud - I haven't used the Realforce, but allegedly it's quieter than the NT.

[Polymer]

Similar to my situation.  I don't like Topre at all for gaming for some reason, but I absolutely prefer it for actual work and typing.

One switch isn't the be-all-end-all for everyone, and one person might not even prefer one switch for all uses.  Variety is the spice of life!

Yeap..agreed..everyone is going to have their own personal preferences....Some even like Variable Topre for gaming...I can sort of see that if it is a QWER type game..but WASD...no way...

I know variable, in general, doesn't get a lot of love on this board..but I've grown to really love it for everyday work stuff...So much so I use it more than my HHKB...

[NewbieOneKenobi]

That's sort of how it happens...You start switching back and forth and you start realizing, hey, I actually like Topre...a lot...

Yeah, you've got a point there.

I still like Cherry and for gaming I absolutely prefer it....but there is something very enjoyable about Topre..

I'd probably prefer to stick with my usual work keyboard for confidence and familiarity, over any advantages in the switch. Also, for some reason this board feels like a gamer to me.

Similar to my situation.  I don't like Topre at all for gaming for some reason, but I absolutely prefer it for actual work and typing.

Chances are I'm the sort of weird guy who prefers gaming switches for typing and typing switches for gaming.

One switch isn't the be-all-end-all for everyone, and one person might not even prefer one switch for all uses.  Variety is the spice of life!

Perhaps. Myself I'm more into collecting and experiencing a lot of them but sticking with just one for pretty much everything.

How do these switches rank with respect to quietness? I am thinking specifically comparing the noise level of Matias Quiet Click vs regular Topre vs silenced Topre?

This thread is very interesting to me, as I am switching back and forth between regular and silenced Topre these days, but I've never tried the Quiet Clicks and the QCs seem very tempting to me, I love tactility. FYI I've tried to listen carefully to numerous YouTube vids, but I find the audio to be less than reliable.

I wouldn't really trust recorded audio. Maybe video, if you can see camera distance, angle etc.

I think I can hear a difference between o-rings and no o-rings on the Novatouch, but I'm not really sure.

The keyboard isn't loud the way I type, but then, the way I type generally is quite silent, at least to me, especially on mech switches. It's probably quieter than blues but a less nice sound. Not particularly annoying but not really pleasant either. It rattles. In a plasticky way. My Majestouch with MX blues also rattles but in a less plasticky way. More in a sandy kind of way.

Keycaps seem to matter. I've tried swapping keys around between Majestouch and Novatouch, and the results are surprising, as in both boards may well be better off after the swap.

Blues with o-rings are probably quieter than NT. I've only done very little testing, so I'm not confident about the results.

And yes, I played dentist last night.

The spring from the spacebar went out, and it's been a smoother typing experience since. I don't need a heavy spacebar for rhythm, as I don't really want that type of cadence. Proper typists (e.g. court reporters, people who actually use(d) typewriters) could feel differently about this. Also helps me keep a consistent and accurate activation force.

For the record, the results of inserting the NT o-rings in my MT blues have been quite interesting. (After uninstalling Cat Hair Mod™).