Author Topic: so are they right? (Read 12864 times)

exia · « **on:** Fri, 25 December 2009, 20:47:27 »

what have you people got to say? logitech makes such great keyboards. Proud logitech keyboard user here.

link: http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/logitech-black-106-normal-keys-wired-ultra-thin-illuminated-keyboard-54-49-a-832330/

ricercar · « **Reply #1 on:** Fri, 25 December 2009, 20:50:27 »

Vague question. Is who right, and when?

Logitech doesn't make any mechanical keyboards to the best of my knowledge. Therefore they don't rank on my list of top keyboards.

exia · « **Reply #2 on:** Fri, 25 December 2009, 20:55:50 »

Quote from: ricercar;145270

Vague question. Is who right, and when?

Logitech doesn't make any mechanical keyboards to the best of my knowledge. Therefore they don't rank on my list of top keyboards.

that is just too bad, you are missing out, there are so many testomonials on that site with people that more than satisfied with their keyboard. many people saying that it's the "best keyboard". give em a try. i for one am using a logitech access 600 keyboard, cost me a mere $6+tax and i am loving it.

PRISONER 24601 · « **Reply #3 on:** Fri, 25 December 2009, 21:24:49 »

logitech makes good mouses. not so good keyboards. If I had to buy one of the 'big brand' cheapo keyboards, I would probably go with microsoft. logitech's keyboards have been really 'squishy' in the past few years as far as keyfeel goes. MS still uses rubber domes that have some snap to them.

NOMiS · « **Reply #4 on:** Fri, 25 December 2009, 21:25:54 »

I've used and owned many Logitech keyboards in the past. As the other poster said, its in a different league of keyboards when it comes to quality and performance. Every Logitech keyboard I've used were dome switches, and afaik all of Logitech's keyboards are dome switch.

After getting my first mechanical keyboard I will never go back to dome switch keyboards.

exia · « **Reply #5 on:** Fri, 25 December 2009, 21:30:26 »

Quote from: NOMiS;145274

I've used and owned many Logitech keyboards in the past. As the other poster said, its in a different league of keyboards when it comes to quality and performance. Every Logitech keyboard I've used were dome switches, and afaik all of Logitech's keyboards are dome switch.

After getting my first mechanical keyboard I will never go back to dome switch keyboards.

nope, the keyboard i am using now and the keyboard in the link are scissor switch keyboards. not dome at all, don't compare them to the crappy dome keyboards

Rajagra · « **Reply #6 on:** Fri, 25 December 2009, 22:09:08 »

Scissor switches are better than simple rubber domes, to be sure. They can be quite comfortable and fast to type on. I have a Logitech Dinovo scissor switch keyboard (original version.) I didn't like it at first, but having tried it again recently it does have a certain appeal.

But don't kid yourself. Scissor switches were not designed from the ground up to be the perfect typing switch. Cost and size (thickness) were the driving factors. They have one thing in common with standard rubber domes - you have to bottom out to make them work. That encourages excessive typing force, and can lead to fatigue and possibly injury.

Those people saying that Logitech is the "best keyboard" are probably comparing it to the $5 dome boards you get bundled with cheap PCs. So they are right. It is the "best keyboard" out of all the boards aimed at the uninformed masses.

And I'm not saying it's a bad keyboard. But once you get into the $60+ range you need to start comparing it to the truly excellent keyboards you can get for that price. I don't think any Logitech keyboard ranks as a contender for best keyboard in that class.

Logitech is the McDonalds or Burger King of the keyboard world. Their fast food is of a decent standard, compared to other junk food sellers. But some people prefer properly cooked steak and are willing to pay for it.

PRISONER 24601 · « **Reply #7 on:** Fri, 25 December 2009, 22:47:49 »

Quote from: Rajagra;145279

keyboard gospel

this.

chimera15 · « **Reply #8 on:** Fri, 25 December 2009, 23:10:06 »

Every logitech product I've ever bought has been fail, and I've bought a lot over the years. The cords wear out too soon, and the drivers are usually a pain the but and don't do what they should right out of the box.

ricercar · « **Reply #9 on:** Fri, 25 December 2009, 23:47:32 »

Quote from: exia;145272

that is just too bad, you are missing out

Check your base assumptions. (Been there, done that, rejected Logitech keyboards through exposure and experience. I've missed nothing.)

Quote from: exia;145272

many testomonials on that site with people that more than satisfied with their keyboard.

Common people are satisfied with McDonalds "food." I'm not. Satisfaction with a Big Mac doesn't make the Big Mac into a steak.

Logitech is the McDonalds of keyboards.

exia · « **Reply #10 on:** Sat, 26 December 2009, 00:38:11 »

Quote from: ricercar;145288

Check your base assumptions. (Been there, done that, rejected Logitech keyboards through exposure and experience. I've missed nothing.)

Common people are satisfied with McDonalds "food." I'm not. Satisfaction with a Big Mac doesn't make the Big Mac into a steak.

Logitech is the McDonalds of keyboards.

you sound so bitter

quadibloc · « **Reply #11 on:** Sat, 26 December 2009, 00:59:24 »

I have a few Microsoft keyboards, but no Logitech ones. However, I have used a Logitech keyboard at work. Maybe Logitech keyboards are good, since this means fewer people are throwing them away or giving them to thrift shops. I have owned some Logitech mice, I think, but not bought brand new.

As far as the feel of the keys on the Logitech keyboard I've used, it didn't seem any worse than other rubber domes. But I did not like the tiny printing on the keys, nor am I happy with the fact that both Microsoft and Logitech are going to (different) nonstandard layouts to get rid of Scroll Lock and the right Windows shift for a more compact keyboard.

If they at least both went to the same nonstandard layout, it could become the new standard.

I can't really blame Logitech for not making mechanical switch keyboards, because they are such expensive and specialized products - not enough people would think that kind of keyboard is worth extra money. If you keep the same keyboard from one computer to the next, of course, $50 for a keyboard is not that ridiculous... and keyboards without mechanical switches have fancy features that make them cost more than that, in any case.

But the fact that the lack of a market makes reasonably-priced keyboards with good tactile feel, but contemporary features, hard to obtain, is dismaying. If not liking the same cheap junk everyone else is satisfied with makes us bitter, so be it.

KeypressGraphics · « **Reply #12 on:** Sat, 26 December 2009, 06:07:17 »

I've owned many Logitech mice & keyboards and feel they are usually quite overrated and poorly built considering their prices. A budget-conscious PC user would probably be better served buying a Microsoft product most of the time, and when it comes to gaming gear I usually prefer Razer & SteelSeries offerings.

I'm not aware of any other companies who make keyboards with built-in LCD's (with game support) however, so I guess anyone who desires that feature is stuck with Logitech.
I can't say I used the LCD on my old G15 much at all however. If anything it was just an unwanted distraction.

ch_123 · « **Reply #13 on:** Sat, 26 December 2009, 06:27:53 »

Quote from: exia;145272

that is just too bad, you are missing out, there are so many testomonials on that site with people that more than satisfied with their keyboard. many people saying that it's the "best keyboard". give em a try. i for one am using a logitech access 600 keyboard, cost me a mere $6+tax and i am loving it.

Lot's of people who can't afford Mercedes or Audis say that Toyotas are the best car.

The problem with user reviews on sites is that the average person has no concept of the idea of objectivity.

Quote

you sound so bitter

Says the person who knows nothing about anything who persists in trying to prove us all wrong. Didn't you have anything better do for Christmas?

JBert · « **Reply #14 on:** Sat, 26 December 2009, 07:36:19 »

Quote from: exia;145292

you sound so bitter

Logitech can do that.

What keyboards do you have to compare them with? Seems your forum signature isn't yet set up.

exia · « **Reply #15 on:** Sat, 26 December 2009, 08:14:59 »

Quote from: ch_123;145303

Lot's of people who can't afford Mercedes or Audis say that Toyotas are the best car.

The problem with user reviews on sites is that the average person has no concept of the idea of objectivity.

Says the person who knows nothing about anything who persists in trying to prove us all wrong. Didn't you have anything better do for Christmas?

we're talking about $300 dollar keyboards here, even a kid working part time could buy one, don't act so smug yourself rich boy.

and i am not trying to prove you guys wrong. you guys think too much of yourself

do half the people on this forum have RSI?

exia · « **Reply #16 on:** Sat, 26 December 2009, 08:15:48 »

Quote from: JBert;145309

Logitech can do that.

What keyboards do you have to compare them with? Seems your forum signature isn't yet set up.

i have a logitech access 600 and a dell laptop. i can type well on both keyboards, lucky me.

bigpook · « **Reply #17 on:** Sat, 26 December 2009, 08:25:56 »

Your not going to get much traction here exia. We all have tried rubber dome keyboards at one time or another. For the most part, rubber domes were our first keyboard. They were for me.
Expand your horizons a little bit, and it doesn't take 300 dollars to do it either. You may end up back were you started and may actually like rubber dome keyboards, but you won't know for sure until you try.

I should add that you are on a forum where we quibble and debate the attributes and value of current and no longer current key switches and keyboards. Showing up here with a rubber dome keyboard and espousing it virtues to a group of people that have an over the top passion for keyswitches and keyboards is kind of funny.
Please don't take offense, but you are running with some big dogs here.
Crazy, opinionated, irrational, obsessed, keyboard maniac big dogs, now how about that biscuit?

TheSoulhunter · « **Reply #18 on:** Sat, 26 December 2009, 08:43:22 »

Quote from: exia;145272

many people saying that it's the "best keyboard". give em a try...

And how many different boards/brands/switches have this people tried!?

I guess you see the flaw in this peoples statement, heh?

"best keyboard" -> best out of the 2-5 they tried ;P

ch_123 · « **Reply #19 on:** Sat, 26 December 2009, 08:46:21 »

Quote from: exia;145312

we're talking about $300 dollar keyboards here, even a kid working part time could buy one, don't act so smug yourself rich boy.

You think $300 isn't a lot of money to spend on a keyboard, yet you call me a rich boy?

Really, what's your point?

quadibloc · « **Reply #20 on:** Sat, 26 December 2009, 09:08:38 »

Of course, G15 is a great name in the history of computers.

Not Logitech, but the famous Bendix G15, a relatively inexpensive computer (it was much cheaper than an IBM 650, but harder to program) with drum memory and built with vacuum tubes. Many small engineering firms used it for their difficult calculations.

patrickgeekhack · « **Reply #21 on:** Sat, 26 December 2009, 09:15:46 »

To some Logitech makes very good keyboards although the quality of their keyboards usually varies with the price. We have to remember that a lot of people have never used a mechanical keyboard and hence can only compare rubber dome and scissor-switch keyboards. Of course, there are some which are better than others in these categories. Also, some people don't care much for mechanical keyboards and some only want the most features they can get. Taste and needs are things we cannot really discuss because each person's knows what is best for him or her.

One thing to remember about the redflagdeals.com site for which I'm a member is it's not a keyboard forum. It's a place where people post the various deals available. Most people there are concerned with getting the most of their dollars. Their goals is to pay the least amount possible for a given product. I will check out the site before buying most of my products and this has saved me a lot, but also tempted me to buy even if I did not need to buy.

bigpook · « **Reply #22 on:** Sat, 26 December 2009, 09:26:53 »

ooh, but it has all of those buttons. love the delete key, nice and big.

I would have traded you a NIB model m mini for that. too bad you had to burn it.

ch_123 · « **Reply #23 on:** Sat, 26 December 2009, 09:45:47 »

Also, the space bar is curved. That means you won't get RSI.

chimera15 · « **Reply #24 on:** Sat, 26 December 2009, 09:49:20 »

Quote from: ripster;145327

LOL - trolling over the holidays......
Show Image

Although next time you're about to chuck a Logitech I do recommend taking them apart. They have some nice construction details - you learn a thing or two when you make something in the millions of units.

Then I recommend this.
Show Image

Wow, you're getting fancy, animated now Ripster? lol

Computer-Lab in Basement · « **Reply #25 on:** Sat, 26 December 2009, 09:52:55 »

How did you make that animation ripster?

SCTony · « **Reply #26 on:** Sat, 26 December 2009, 10:02:57 »

>>redflagdeals>>must go>>must buy>>redflagdeals>>:horn: (I kid I kid)

Rajagra · « **Reply #27 on:** Sat, 26 December 2009, 10:36:37 »

Quote from: exia;145312

do half the people on this forum have RSI?

No, but I've known someone who did. It made it virtually impossible for him to do his job. He took drastic options to try and fix it, but I don't know if he ever managed.

Using bad keyboards when you are young is like listening to loud music through headphones. The risks are known, but people ignore them because they don't experience the symptoms until it is too late.

alpslover · « **Reply #28 on:** Sat, 26 December 2009, 12:19:47 »

Quote from: exia;145275

nope, the keyboard i am using now and the keyboard in the link are scissor switch keyboards. not dome at all, don't compare them to the crappy dome keyboards

scissor "switch" keyboards ARE rubber dome keyboards. the scissor mechanism just stabilizes the keycaps. rubber domes do the actual switching.

ricercar · « **Reply #29 on:** Sat, 26 December 2009, 13:32:08 »

EDIT: deleted for being a ****

ricercar · « **Reply #30 on:** Sat, 26 December 2009, 13:51:43 »

But kishy, we DO think highly of ourselves.

ch_123 · « **Reply #31 on:** Sat, 26 December 2009, 14:03:37 »

Come on folks, don't feed the trolls.

ricercar · « **Reply #32 on:** Sat, 26 December 2009, 14:20:36 »

Nosh Nosh nosh. Yum, what? I don't feed trolls, I eat them.

InSanCen · « **Reply #33 on:** Sat, 26 December 2009, 14:45:06 »

It's Xmas, I'll feed the troll for a giggle.

As an ex G15 and diNovo Edge user, I suspect you may feel me qualified to comment on the pros and cons of those higher end Logitech offerings versus various mechanical keyboards favoured on these forums.

Pro's:-

Mechanical boards, although varied, generally have great tactility, feedback and do not bottom out too easily. they are easier on your fingers, and a lot help greatly to reduce the risks of RSI.

Logitech's of that range generally have lights, maybe an LCD.

Cons:-

Mechanical keyboards are addictive. My wallet hates this site as much as my fingers, wrists and hands love it.

Logitech keyboards of that price are ****, and cost as much as a decent mechanical board. **** em.

Do You understand it yet?
Most of us have been there, done that, and not only bought the T-Shirt but puked up on it as well. Stop pimping your boards. We've tried tyhem, and we don't like them. You can criticise us when you have bought a varied number of Mechanical boards, tried them with a fair trial, and then decided you don't like them. Until then, **** off elsewhere.

Mercen_505 · « **Reply #34 on:** Sat, 26 December 2009, 15:01:40 »

But in all seriousness I couldn't hear you over the sound of my mighty M13.

ch_123 · « **Reply #35 on:** Sat, 26 December 2009, 15:02:53 »

Quote from: Mercen_505;145397

But in all seriousness I couldn't hear you over the sound of my mighty M13.

Is that some kind of Logitech keyboard?

AndrewZorn · « **Reply #36 on:** Sat, 26 December 2009, 15:16:54 »

Quote from: ch_123;145398

Is that some kind of Logitech keyboard?

it is like the G13 but for business people and tax collectors
you know
OLD PEOPLE LOL

didjamatic · « **Reply #37 on:** Sat, 26 December 2009, 15:19:23 »

Feed the trolls... toppins a bag

patrickgeekhack · « **Reply #38 on:** Sat, 26 December 2009, 17:58:53 »

Was to preach to the wrong choir. Almost all, if not all, the members of this forum think mechanical keyboards are better than rubber domes keyboard, except for Topre switches (which are rubber domes with springs). In attacking this point of view, what he/she did was to strengthen our existing views. Unless, one has a very very strong argument for a rubber dome keyboard and has the data to back it, one will never be able to change geekhackers' opinion.

ricercar · « **Reply #39 on:** Sat, 26 December 2009, 18:10:41 »

Quote from: patrickgeekhack;145430

Unless, one has a very very strong argument for a rubber dome keyboard and has the data to back it, one will never be able to change geekhackers' opinion.

Yeah, truth. I'm too fond of argument for argument's sake to remember to welcome a newcomer. I'm not biggus ****us because mine is large; I'm biggus ****us because I act like one.

At least Ripster has the rule to be nice until someone has a post count of 10.

bigpook · « **Reply #40 on:** Sat, 26 December 2009, 18:40:45 »

I will go against the grain and say the poster isn't a troll, just misinformed.

He's got an opinion, just like everyone else, we just don't happen to agree with it.

but then again...

trolls

aren't we all guilty of doing that?

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[2]

didjamatic · « **Reply #41 on:** Sat, 26 December 2009, 19:05:34 »

I will admit there have been some rubber dome boards that when new were very nice to type on, but the problem is they don't stay that way and the more heavily used keys begin to feel different than other keys and in my personal experience, this led to more typos. There was an OEM HP rubber dome board several years ago that was the cat's pajamas to type on, It was really tactile and nice, but after a month of hard use or 2 months of moderate use the thrill was gone. I have a keytronic board set aside at work that is another example of a fine rubber dome/membrane board. I used to burn through a new keyboard every 2-3 months because I'd get the OEM models from wherever I would work. As new systems came in, I would take the new board and pass the one I had been using on to the new user. You couldn't physically tell that it had been used, so the users never cared.

Then I got a Model M. I had always liked it when I was on someone's computer that had a tactile board, but never spent time on one on my personal systems. Then I bought a cherry switch board and preferred them over buckling springs, now I have all of the switches and type mostly on Cherry Browns and Topres.

To the fans of Logitechs and other "high end" rubber domes, they are nice but give a good mechanical board a try. I think you'll find that the consistency and feel of using them is very addicting and adds some fun where it wasn't before.

EDIT: If you like Logitechs, Microsofts and need something reasonably quiet, try a board with Cherry browns or Topre switches.

keyb_gr · « **Reply #42 on:** Sat, 26 December 2009, 19:39:50 »

FWIW, Logitech keyboards = classic Consumer Crap. Just like 99% of the market these days, but usually engineered and produced competently at least (there is enough junk out there that isn't). The average Geekhacker who's merely looking for a good, reliable keyboard with no frills isn't part of the target group at all. (That starts with the designs - most of them are either butt ugly or, for the gaming boards, ridiculously sci-fi. Just disposable. The diNovo Edge has some style but with its glossy finish is about as practical as to be expected from a designer piece.)

Interestingly, their pointing devices are a different story.

didjamatic · « **Reply #43 on:** Sat, 26 December 2009, 19:42:43 »

I wouldn't say logitechs = classic consumer crap, I would say:

OEM and cheap replacements = Crap.
Higer end Rubber domes (Some available from Logitech, IBM, Microsoft, Keytronic) = Prosumer/Power User keyboards, often with specialized functions such as Logitech G15
Mechanical switch boards = Professional grade keyboards

The good news is that for less money than some prosumer boards, you can buy a professional board. Most consumers have yet to realize this, which is why they can be had for a decent price.

bigpook · « **Reply #44 on:** Sat, 26 December 2009, 19:44:59 »

I used a HHKB lite for 4 years. I thought the price of the HHKB Pro was a bit much and at the time would never, ever pay that much for a keyboard. The 80 bucks or so I paid for the lite was a lot of money for me at the time, but I liked the layout.

I didn't really know there was anything else out there besides Logitech or Microsoft at the time.

My first real keyboard was a unicomp customizer. I got that a few years ago, its been downhill ever since : )

and yes, I would never go back to the HHKB lite.

microsoft windows · « **Reply #45 on:** Sat, 26 December 2009, 19:48:34 »

Most of those fancy rubber domes from Logitech and Microsoft feel terrible. I've used them. My ugly old Dell keyboard is much better than those.

keyb_gr · « **Reply #46 on:** Sat, 26 December 2009, 21:38:59 »

Quote from: didjamatic;145448

The good news is that for less money than some prosumer boards, you can buy a professional board. Most consumers have yet to realize this, which is why they can be had for a decent price.

The point is, most consumers are looking for "consumerish" features (extra functions, wireless operation, whatever) - thus what these companies develop are products that look good in terms of fancy features. A considerable part of the budget is invested into gimmicks rather than the keyboard itself, so the resulting product will obviously turn out more expensive than justified otherwise. That's what I call "consumer crap" - not purpose-built, but optimized for superficial attractiveness (see meretricious).

ch_123 · « **Reply #47 on:** Sun, 27 December 2009, 05:15:46 »

Quote from: didjamatic;145404

Feed the trolls... toppins a bag

'Tuppence' (two pennies) surely?

PRISONER 24601 · « **Reply #48 on:** Sun, 27 December 2009, 05:50:41 »

I like trolling which is obvious enough to be considered satirical. OP gets a gold star for that!

Rajagra · « **Reply #49 on:** Sun, 27 December 2009, 05:53:01 »

Quote from: ch_123;145520

'Tuppence' (two pennies) surely?

**** Van Dyke spoke cockney worse than Google translates Japanese.

I can remember when a sixpence was two and a half pence. Thank God we decimalised. (Though that might have actually been the cause of the confusion at the time.)

News:

Author Topic: so are they right? (Read 12864 times)