Author Topic: Will RealForce adopt the Cherry MX Compatible Stems for all their keyboards?  (Read 19634 times)

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Offline Data

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I trust RealForce to do whatever sells the greatest number of keyboards.  My gut tells me that means more MX stem compatibility.

Offline les_garten

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I trust RealForce to do whatever sells the greatest number of keyboards.  My gut tells me that means more MX stem compatibility.

Let's hope your gut is correct and it's not just some indigestion!
 :)

Offline KRKS

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Seeing this and the iRocks switches being MX-mount makes me feel weird. On one hand, it'll mean some nicer feeling switches for the same caps, but on the other that means less interest in Alps mount and Topre mount(but at least they'll be available with MX mount). But then again, Matias killed it's caps relevancy by making them Assdrop-only, and vintages are hard to get here so "iRocks switches + MX caps" may very well be my best shot at an Alps custom.
The increasing power of Massdrop WILL kill the community group buys - don't come crying to me after it happens when you're too stupid to see it now. Join me in saving the community!

MD = NO $, NO EXCEPTIONS

Offline FrostyToast

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MX stems will give users more freedom.
How come there are so many Conservatives in here?
I know the quality of the caps is second to few but would you really be unable to find an MX equivalent?
Moving towards a single standard for keycap mounting should be a desire for everyone.
Quote from: elton5354
I don't need anymore keyboards

Offline bananaplum

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I just ordered my first Realforce board and would love the option for more customization if I find that Topres are indeed right for me.

Am I the only one who is reminded of phone charging cables by the controversy about the stems? It was really sucky to have all sorts of different connectors and when the manufacturers settled on microUSB it was awesome! For me, more compatible stems means more awesome custom caps for everyone to enjoy :D


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My first mechanical keyboard - KUL ES-87 :)

Offline Findecanor

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True, they don't need to be replaced. But most custom keycap buyers don't buy sets because the stock caps on their boards are bad. They buy them because they offer colorways, novelties, and profiles (spherical in particular) that stock keycaps don't.
Speak for yourself.

My Realforce has Swedish legends from the start because Realforce made them that way.
It took me several years to collect various Cherry keycaps from multiple keyboards before I could get good Swedish caps for my Cherry MX boards. The keyboard I am using now has UK layout and I have been using German layout on other boards for years.
My keyboard for work has blank caps only because of the scarcity of high-quality caps in Swedish layout.

Only a couple keycap group buys here have ever offered Swedish legends, and at a very high cost. And the people behind those were themselves European. Nobody based in the US who has done a colorway has offered  European legends besides UK layout.

The "Nordic" set on my Novatouch is crap. Thin pad-printed ABS, and horribly aligned. A couple of keys are practically unintelligible. And I can't use Cherry profile on Novatouch without O-rings.

Why not? What caps are on the prototype they showed recently?
"A Taiwanese OEM". Double-shot ABS in OEM profile for backlighting.
The caps for the four keys above the numpad were noticeably different - painted and lasered.
🍉

Offline Findecanor

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Rant 13: Cherry MX mount is sub-optimal for keyboards, and I hope that it in time is replaced with something better.
The availability of replacement keycap sets it the only thing it has going for it.

1. Profile (This does not apply to Topre)
In general, better-feeling mechanical switches have longer coiled springs. But longer springs means that the keyboard needs to have a higher profile. In a Cherry MX switch, there is a long stem above the spring, which wastes height.
In comparison, IBM Buckling Spring and Hi-Tek "Space Invader" switches have longer springs in switches about the same size because the springs are in the stems and the height is not wasted.
There are switches, such as "Ericsson switches" and "Rafi switches" that also have the spring inside the switch stem, allowing full travel in much smaller profile.
 
2. Backlighting.
Cherry MX switches were not made for backlighting. The LED position was meant for indicator lights, for Caps Lock, etc.
Therefore, backlit legends are either at the top or the bottom and there is a lot of light bleed onto the mounting plate and other keys. Backlighting is also often not very well diffused over the legends, with a noticeable bright spot in the centres. On some keys the alternative legends are crowded together with the primary legends or not backlit at all.
Backlighting should be in the centre, or at the corners -- which are the two prevailing conventions for keyboard legends. Omron Romer-G, Kailh/Steelseries QS1 and many rubber dome keyboards have got this right.
Topre is basically a rubber dome keyboard, so if they kept refining the existing switch and mount with a translucent dome and hole or light guide in the centre of the stem, I think that Topre could achieve centred backlighting without lightbleed.

3. Stabilisers.
Both Cherry stabilisers, "Costar" stabilisers and Topre-Cherry MX mount stabilisers have holes in the plate which allow dust and liquids to get into the keyboard and onto the circuit board.
In comparison, Alps stabiliser mounts are snapped into small holes and cover the mounting holes completely, but the stabiliser bars are still exposed to dust.
Topre Realforce/HHKB keys have the most elegant stabilisers: the stabiliser bars are integrated into the switch, located below the switch, and there are no separate stabiliser stems for any keys except for the Space Bar.
The stabilised keys on the Novatouch are louder than on Topre Realforce -- although the Realforce's 2.75 right Shift is somewhat more wobbly although not less smooth or louder than a 1u key.
Unlike the Novatouch (and HHKB) Realforce also has the 1.75 u keys Caps Lock and right JIS Shift key stabilised.
🍉

Offline [Lewynlight]

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well, i'll just drop this here.

Re*lamdba*lforce RGB is coming, with MX stem as well.





TGR Jane V1 CE - TGR Jane v2 - TGR Jane V2 CE Black Ano - TGR Jane V2 CE E-White Coat - TGR 910 R1 - TGR 910 RE Polycarbonate - TGR 910v3 Prototype - TGR Tris - RS60 - RS65 "Internet Yamero" - RS TKL

Offline _PixelNinja

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"A Taiwanese OEM". Double-shot ABS in OEM profile for backlighting.
The caps for the four keys above the numpad were noticeably different - painted and lasered.
I'm pretty sure it's Ducky making the keycaps for them; observe the font on the Shine 5 and compare it to the pictures of the Realforce RGB:

« Last Edit: Mon, 13 June 2016, 10:50:32 by _PixelNinja »

Offline Niomosy

  • Posts: 1239


I think that part of the charm of the Realforce boards is that you either use their naff legends and their nice PBT caps, or you don't use them at all. It's part of what makes them a little weird and appealing.

Wow, I couldn't disagree more. Nearly the entire appeal of a RealForce comes from its Topre switches and its build quality. The stock keycaps are entirely besides the point.

If you look at the history of custom keycap group buys, you will find that 99% of them have MX stems. That means that virtually the entire custom keycap community needs/uses boards with MX stems. The NovaTouch is the only Topre-like keyboard that can take all those millions of custom keycaps, and it only comes in TKL format and only in black. Moreover, there is little evidence that Cooler Master has any interest in continuing the product line, much expanding it into other layouts.

That means RealForce is poised to take the entire Topre+MX market for themselves. This is fantastic news for everyone who owns any of the many fantastic keycap sets that have come out these last several years and also want that Topre experience.

For many of us, typing nirvana will only come when we can put SA keycaps onto genuine Topre switches. The stock PBT caps that come on any board are eBay fodder and nothing more, and contribute zero "charm" to a board whose primary value lies in its switches.

Stock topre pbt caps are premium quality caps and that is part of the appeal.

They don't need to be replaced like almost all stock MX caps.





They could update their cap production to include MX stem compatible PBT caps.

Offline zslane

  • Posts: 2311
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True, they don't need to be replaced. But most custom keycap buyers don't buy sets because the stock caps on their boards are bad. They buy them because they offer colorways, novelties, and profiles (spherical in particular) that stock keycaps don't.
Speak for yourself.

My Realforce has Swedish legends from the start because Realforce made them that way.
It took me several years to collect various Cherry keycaps from multiple keyboards before I could get good Swedish caps for my Cherry MX boards.

Well, judging from the numbers, I'm speaking for many more people than just myself. The ANSI tribe is big and strong.

Users who need very nation-specific ISO keycaps are always screwed by their own tiny market size. That's not really the fault of the stem format, but of the realities of the keycap marketplace in general.

Offline les_garten

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True, they don't need to be replaced. But most custom keycap buyers don't buy sets because the stock caps on their boards are bad. They buy them because they offer colorways, novelties, and profiles (spherical in particular) that stock keycaps don't.
Speak for yourself.

My Realforce has Swedish legends from the start because Realforce made them that way.
It took me several years to collect various Cherry keycaps from multiple keyboards before I could get good Swedish caps for my Cherry MX boards.

Well, judging from the numbers, I'm speaking for many more people than just myself. The ANSI tribe is big and strong.

Users who need very nation-specific ISO keycaps are always screwed by their own tiny market size. That's not really the fault of the stem format, but of the realities of the keycap marketplace in general.

Swedish, ya gotta be kiddin' me...

You Swedish guys kill me.  Always tryin' to jump places in line.

When I get my Sanskrit and Cuneiform keysets then you guys can whine, but not one second before...

 :cool:
« Last Edit: Mon, 13 June 2016, 17:13:38 by les_garten »

Offline davkol

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They could update their cap production to include MX stem compatible PBT caps.
MX-compatible stems on HHKB…?

Offline Niomosy

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They could update their cap production to include MX stem compatible PBT caps.
MX-compatible stems on HHKB…?

I was referring to PBT caps for the new MX-compatible RealForce keyboards but, sure, that could be a possibility as well.

Offline Hypersphere

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Cherry-stem versions of RF keyboards will satisfy a potentially relatively large market segment. However, I certainly hope that Topre/RF will also maintain its standard tried-and-true switch/stem design.

Keycaps for Cherry mx stems come in many varieties of materials and profiles. In addition, there are variable dimensions with respect to the relative length of stem and the skirt of the cap, as well as variable friction fit of the cap stem receptacle to the cruciform switch stem.

In contrast, Topre keycaps made for standard Topre switches snap neatly into place within the switch stem at a defined vertical distance and lateral clearance. The cap and switch form an integral functional unit in a similar way to the union of cap and switch barrel in IBM buckling spring keyboards.

While I welcome the variety afforded by some models of Topre-switch keyboards with Cherry mx-compatible stems, it would be a great pity if Topre were to abandon the original design that works so beautifully.


Offline davkol

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They could update their cap production to include MX stem compatible PBT caps.
MX-compatible stems on HHKB…?

I was referring to PBT caps for the new MX-compatible RealForce keyboards but, sure, that could be a possibility as well.
I don't think that "that could be a possibility". If keycaps from the same production line go into both Realforces and HHKBs, then both would be getting the result of the switch.

Offline supamesican

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Let's hope not.

HHKB will be the last true keyboard if RF betrays the keyboard gods and puts cherry **** from now on.

honestly I expect them to offer both.  Granted theres other options for true keyboards, unicomps exist still
Unicomp may be making an effort to keep the dream alive, but some would contend that their products are a pale imitation of the real thing.

and unless they are talking about model fs I would say they are 100% wrong. They use the same tools as lexmark did at the end but offer better quality boards than did lexmark including a case less prone to breaking. Now if you wanna say lexmark did a number on the model m and unicomp has to live with it and therefore makes worse boards than ibm in say 85 I'd agree

Offline zslane

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Keycaps for Cherry mx stems come in many varieties of materials and profiles. In addition, there are variable dimensions with respect to the relative length of stem and the skirt of the cap, as well as variable friction fit of the cap stem receptacle to the cruciform switch stem.

We won't know until we get our hands on one, but in theory Topre could make (or have sourced to their specifications) MX-stemmed keycaps that fit perfectly onto their new switches. Just as perfectly as the current stock keycaps on the current switch stems. The method of attachment will be different, sure, but all this business about varying dimensions and friction fit could (and should) be moot if Topre assumes (design/quality) control over whatever MX-stemmed stock keycaps they put on the new model.

Offline Hypersphere

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Keycaps for Cherry mx stems come in many varieties of materials and profiles. In addition, there are variable dimensions with respect to the relative length of stem and the skirt of the cap, as well as variable friction fit of the cap stem receptacle to the cruciform switch stem.

We won't know until we get our hands on one, but in theory Topre could make (or have sourced to their specifications) MX-stemmed keycaps that fit perfectly onto their new switches. Just as perfectly as the current stock keycaps on the current switch stems. The method of attachment will be different, sure, but all this business about varying dimensions and friction fit could (and should) be moot if Topre assumes (design/quality) control over whatever MX-stemmed stock keycaps they put on the new model.
It would be great if Topre were to do this. However, it appears that their first model has DS caps with translucent plastic for the legends illuminated with LEDs; I would assume that the surrounding plastic is ABS, but I do not know. I also do not know how well these caps are engineered. It will be interesting to see what they do with their first model and subsequently.

Offline Niomosy

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They could update their cap production to include MX stem compatible PBT caps.
MX-compatible stems on HHKB…?

I was referring to PBT caps for the new MX-compatible RealForce keyboards but, sure, that could be a possibility as well.
I don't think that "that could be a possibility". If keycaps from the same production line go into both Realforces and HHKBs, then both would be getting the result of the switch.

If.  I haven't seen anything indicating the HHKB will receive MX compatible stems.

Offline davkol

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We haven't seen anything indicating the non-backlit realforces will receive MX compatible stems.

Offline _PixelNinja

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MX-compatible stems on HHKB…?
HHKB ≠ Topre.

Offline davkol

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MX-compatible stems on HHKB…?
HHKB ≠ Topre.
Sure, the first generation was made by Fujitsu AFAIK, the OEM for Lite is Chicony and only Pro is related to Topre at all. I guess it's obvious, that the talk is about Pro in this context.

Offline _PixelNinja

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Sure, the first generation was made by Fujitsu AFAIK, the OEM for Lite is Chicony and only Pro is related to Topre at all. I guess it's obvious, that the talk is about Pro in this context.
That is not what I meant. Regardless of the HHKB's use of their switches, Topre do not support the HHKB Pro in that it is not their product. This was discussed in Matt3o's thread when he was designing a new keyset for them. Don't get me wrong though, I'd love to see it happen, given the oneness with cup rubber feeling is not altered.
« Last Edit: Wed, 15 June 2016, 09:33:42 by _PixelNinja »

Offline davkol

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If the manufacturer changes their molds, the product will change, regardless of its brand.

If Topre stops producing Topre-mount sliders and keycaps, PFU can (a) accept the change or (b) find some other manufacturer.

OP asks, if Topre will abandon Topre mount on their keyboards. The obvious question arises: if they do, will they keep the production of Topre-mount switches/caps for PFU's HHKB?
« Last Edit: Wed, 15 June 2016, 10:37:47 by davkol »

Offline Hypersphere

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My hope is that Topre will choose to diversify rather than transform. That is, I would like to see the standard Topre switch maintained in parallel with the Cherry-stem Topre switch. This would enable PFU to continue making the HHKB Pro 2 with standard Topre switches, and if they were to choose to do so, to introduce in parallel an additional HHKB Pro 2 model with Cherry stem Topre switches. The same would apply to the Topre Realforce models.

Offline zslane

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It seems most likely, to me anyway, that Topre (along with interested third party vendors who source their switches) will provide MX- and traditional Topre mounts in parallel product lines for a while. But as with all things, ultimately the marketplace will vote with its wallet and one or the other may die on the vine due to lack of sufficient demand. Only time will tell.

Offline Marshal

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My hope is that Topre will choose to diversify rather than transform. That is, I would like to see the standard Topre switch maintained in parallel with the Cherry-stem Topre switch. This would enable PFU to continue making the HHKB Pro 2 with standard Topre switches, and if they were to choose to do so, to introduce in parallel an additional HHKB Pro 2 model with Cherry stem Topre switches. The same would apply to the Topre Realforce models.

You could only hope but I feel like they might just stick with whatever grabs the most money.