Why are ALP's switches no longer used.

[bigpook]

The title isn't so accurate, but in a way its true. There are keyboards currently using some form of ALP's switches but it seems to me that Cherry has more more market share overall.

I ask this because I sit here using ALP's orange switches that I pulled out of an old AEK. They replaced the black ALP's that I was using and initially I was disappointed. After a few days I made the adjustment to them and really, they feel pretty good. Not as light as a cherry brown but lighter then the black ALP's.

I haven't had a chance to try blue, green, and whatever other color they made them in and have to wonder why they are no longer being produced. I can't say they are better then cherry, BS or topre but I can't say they aren't in the same league either.

Just wondering as its a pain to have to search out older keyboards just so I can frankenstein  one together.  And its not like I am using frankentein in a negative sense. But it was fairly trivial to swap out the blacks and the oranges ( the lower assembly are compatible, which makes it a lot easier).
I don't think you can do that with any other switch which makes the ALP's that more unique.

I would love to be able to buy a filco tenkeyless with blue ALP's.

[timw4mail]

I personally think that it's mostly because more people like Cherry, and they're the only ones who have continued to thrive selling mechanical switches.

[bigpook]

So you think there was some kind of battle royale between ALP's and Cherry and Cherry won?

There was a movie.... and I think Taco Bell won the fast food wars.

[ch_123]

Ok kids, we've all had fun with the random capatilization of AlPs, but get the company's name right. It's Alps, not Alp.

I ask this because I sit here using ALP's orange switches that I pulled out of an old AEK. They replaced the black ALP's that I was using and initially I was disappointed. After a few days I made the adjustment to them and really, they feel pretty good. Not as light as a cherry brown but lighter then the black ALP's.

Are you sure about that? From what I've seen, the Black and Cream Alps are the same, except that the Cream Alps have those rubber dampeners. Oddly enough, the AEK seemed lighter than my AT101W, even when I moved the exact switches into the AT...

I haven't had a chance to try blue, green, and whatever other color they made them in and have to wonder why they are no longer being produced. I can't say they are better then cherry, BS or topre but I can't say they aren't in the same league either.

Blue Alps are much nicer than the Black or Cream ones I've tried. And I'm pretty sure that if you want to swap Blue Alps into either an AT or Filco, you will need the aid of a soldering iron.

Cherry? They survived off rubber dome and linear boards for POS/business stuff. I think if they ever lost that business, they'd shut up shop too. I don't think consumer mechanical boards are profitable enough a market for large companies like Alps or even Cherry.

[bigpook]

The switches I got out of the AEK look orange to me, not cream. They do seem lighter then the black ALPS but not as light as the brown Cherries.

I am OK with a soldering iron, I already did the swap when I removed the XM's for the blacks. Kind of wish I bought a couple of the filco B stock while they were still available.

[ch_123]

Oh, Im thinking of the AEK II. Are the Orange ones dampened too?

[sixty]

I'm pretty sure the MX line will live on for another couple of years, Cherry doesn't seem to do that bad financially. However I doubt we will ever see another new line of MX switch based boards from Cherry.

Also I just remembered I read a (somewhat outdated - 2005) article about Cherry and their factories the other day. It was like 15 pages long, quite interesting stuff. I might translate it some day.

[bigpook]

Oh, Im thinking of the AEK II. Are the Orange ones dampened too?

If by dampened you mean the rubber bits on the slider, then no.

[bigpook]

I'm pretty sure the MX line will live on for another couple of years, Cherry doesn't seem to do that bad financially. However I doubt we will ever see another new line of MX switch based boards from Cherry.

Also I just remembered I read a (somewhat outdated - 2005) article about Cherry and their factories the other day. It was like 15 pages long, quite interesting stuff. I might translate it some day.

What kind of world would we live in if there were no Cherry MX switches?
: )

If Unicomp can hang on a bit, they can RULE the world. lol.

[Buckling_Summer]

With all the discussion going on I am very curious to type on an ALPS keyboard.

Btw apples & alps: It seems like a anagrammatism game.

And some final thoughts:

- What is the name of a board using ALPS switches?
- Alpine?

- How do you call a fan user of ALPS switches?
- Alpinist?

;-)

[bigpook]

I'm not a kid (even the old folks in Florida don't call BigPook one either)

Actually, there are a fair bit of blue hairs running, (well, maybe not quite running) around here. I feel positively juvenile when I am around them : )

I like when they yell at me to get off of their lawn.

[bigpook]

With all the discussion going on I am very curious to type on an ALPS keyboard.

ALPS are unique as they are no longer produced. Aside from the copies, like the XM and the Fukka. That kind of makes them special. They aren't readily available like other switches.
Too bad (for me anyways) that the Dell AT101W didn't come with blue ALPS.

[ch_123]

With Alps, it seems to me that quality is proportionate to scarcity and (in most cases) high cost...

[bigpook]

With Alps, it seems to me that quality is proportionate to scarcity and (in most cases) high cost...

I was under the impression that the ALPS switches were "not as good" as the Cherries. I don't share that opinion, but I am only going on my own experience with them.
Scarcity will equate to higher cost, no?

[ch_123]

Depends. The Fukkas are $80, but if you are lucky, you can get a White or Blue Alps (complicated) board for less.

[bigpook]

The only ALPS equipped 'board I am familiar with is the Dell AT101. I didn't like the form factor but was more than happy to pilfer the switches.
I don't get the friction part though, I find the Cherry browns and blues to be a bit 'gristly' at slow speed.

I wasn't expecting much from the oranges I got out of the AEK. The keyboard was dirty and looked like it had a hard life. Yet the switches feel fine to me.


I think the fukkas at 80 dollars is a great price, especially when the cherries go for 30-40 dollars more.  
I would like a blue alps 'board though. I suppose I need to keep an eye out on e-bay.

[itlnstln]

Maybe for Vintage Collectors but not for me.
 
I find ALPS interesting but overall of lesser quality. I'll be getting an ALPS branded keyboard here soon but don't have high hopes. Every ALPS keyboard I've tried has been built with pretty cheap construction techniques. The switches themselves didn't NEED to add friction into the equation either. In comparison the IBM Buckling Spring is smooth as Buttah!

I agree (my Northgate is a tank, though). ALPS tend to wobble a lot (simply due to their design), and that looseness plus friction, to me, gives them an aire of cheapness that I don't get from Cherry. I don't think they are bad switches, per se, but I do think others are better (with the Model M being the smoothest I have tried; they're just too heavy).  It's all subjective, though.

[bigpook]

The model M is one smooth switch, but I think the Topre is the smoothest.

[overdriver]

It would be interesting to hear the KBDmania and OTD guy's opinions of ALPS versus Cherries since ALPS are easier to get there.  They seem to be into greasing them with exotic fluids.

They seems prefer Cherries to ALPS. but ALPS are still popular among the collectors because of rarity.
The most of them agree Blue or Brown cherries are the best.

[ch_123]

Maybe for Vintage Collectors but not for me.

I find ALPS interesting but overall of lesser quality.  I'll be getting an ALPS branded keyboard here soon but don't have high hopes.  Every ALPS keyboard I've tried has been built with pretty cheap construction techniques.  The switches themselves didn't NEED to add friction into the equation either.  In comparison the IBM Buckling Spring is smooth as Buttah!

Well, the Filco Zero is probably the best built Alps compatible keyboard around, and the best built Cherry is... also the Filco!

Either way, I was referring to the switches as opposed to the keyboards themselves. I would agree that the bewildering array of cheap plasticky Japanese keyboards of the mid-late 80s do not interest me in the slightest. My SGI AT is a pretty nice keyboard, but if feels like a bit of a toy compared to just about anything IBM churned out.

[itlnstln]

ALPS didn't make the pic.

Neither did Topre, I see.  Unless that's the suicide man.

[overdriver]

My last hope on ALPS is blue - as someone reported it feels like 50g(but my guess is 60g at least)
Once in a blue moon there would be Blue ALPS in ebay.

[itlnstln]

Blue moon?  That's funny.

[ch_123]

I was the one who claimed that.

It consistently actuated at ~53g... I might try out a few more switches to see if that is a consistent result for all switches. However, ~49g, it almost actuated, so I guessed around 50g.

It feels stiffer or something that the Blue Cherry, but I'm guessing that's more of a force graph thingy. They are comparable to a lighter membrane buckling spring, although not quite as sharp and natural feeling.

[overdriver]

I was the one who claimed that.

It consistently actuated at ~53g... I might try out a few more switches to see if that is a consistent result for all switches. However, ~49g, it almost actuated, so I guessed around 50g.

It doesnt feel stiffer or something that the Blue Cherry, but I'm guessing that's more of a force graph thingy. They are comparable to a lighter membrane buckling spring, although not quite as sharp and natural feeling.

very interesting. thanks for your input

[itlnstln]

I was thinking more along these lines:
 

[chimera15]

The only alps switches that are worth anything to type on are real complicated whites/blues, and creams..the rest are relatively crap, and I'd almost prefer a rubber dome over them.  Blacks I can't even consider an alps switch, just because they're so ridiculous to type on.   There's a huge difference between a white complicated, a white fake,  and a black.

A white complicated alps switch is far better imo to a blue cherry.  Blue cherries remind me a lot of montereys, since they're super light.  They're absolutely no good for space bars.  The scorpius m10 I have, the switch in the spacebar is basically a linear because of the weight and the lightness of the switch.  This doesn't happen with alps switches.

[timw4mail]

A white complicated alps switch is far better imo to a blue cherry.  Blue cherries remind me a lot of montereys, since they're super light.  They're absolutely no good for space bars.  The scorpius m10 I have, the switch in the spacebar is basically a linear because of the weight and the lightness of the switch.  This doesn't happen with alps switches.

Does a spacebar really need a tactile point? I really don't see how you can call the green switch linear, though.

Manyak seems to favor the Montereys over the blue cherry switches.

The only ALPS switches I can really tolerate are the damped switches in the AEKII. Although, if I ever find out what kind of switch was in that Datadesk Lil' Big Board I used to have...

[chimera15]

Does a spacebar really need a tactile point? I really don't see how you can call the green switch linear, though.

Manyak seems to favor the Montereys over the blue cherry switches.

The only ALPS switches I can really tolerate are the damped switches in the AEKII. Although, if I ever find out what kind of switch was in that Datadesk Lil' Big Board I used to have...

Heck yes the spacebar needs a tactile point, moreso imo than any other key.  If it doesn't have one you frequently get spaces in the middle of the words typing at high speed for instance.

[timw4mail]

Heck yes the spacebar needs a tactile point, moreso imo than any other key.  If it doesn't have one you frequently get spaces in the middle of the words typing at high speed for instance.

I guess that's a matter of opinion, then. I don't think I've ever had the problem of using too many spaces unintentionally. Perhaps you should mod a gray Cherry switch into your spacebar. That's about as tactile as you can get. I found the grey switch to be too difficult to actuate in comparison to the rest of my Compaq MX11800 keyboard, so I moved that switch, and then put a black switch in it's place.

If that spacebar feels too linear for you, I'd suggest using that keyboard exclusively for a day, then you'll be less likely to use too much force.

I don't think ALPS keyboards generally have a higher force switch in the spacebar.

[InSanCen]

If you want to try other ALPS (It's capitilised on everything I won by them, including some godawful rubberdome board), then I would suggest looking out for a Wang 724 board. They are big old beasts though, a touch wider than an M.  They can be had fairly cheaply too. Just make sure you get the RJ11-->PS/2 cable unless you fancy making one up yourself.

[bigpook]

What kind of ALPS are in the Wang?

[keyb_gr]

Does a spacebar really need a tactile point?

Not with me at least - I tend to slap it enough in any case. While I get along fine with green MX and BS for the space bar, that also is the one key that I like on a G81 (MY). Guess I'd be fine with MX blacks, too. Not a big fan of the notoriously heavy grey space bar switches though (both linear and tactile).

[chimera15]

If you want to try other ALPS (It's capitilised on everything I won by them, including some godawful rubberdome board), then I would suggest looking out for a Wang 724 board. They are big old beasts though, a touch wider than an M.  They can be had fairly cheaply too. Just make sure you get the RJ11-->PS/2 cable unless you fancy making one up yourself.

I'm curious what color alps are in the Wang too...otherwise I'd recommend just getting an early model focus(no windows key).  They usually can be had for less than $40, are fairly common considering all the different models, there's usually at least one or two on ebay at a time, and have complicated alps in them.

[ricercar]

There was a movie.... and I think Taco Bell won the fast food wars.

Demolition Man. Sylvester Stallone, and Wesley Snipes, and Sandra Bullock. Two stones and a babe, although IIRC she really didn't attract my eye until she sashayed in that sarong in Speed 2.

--
ALPS are teh meh for me. I have a Northgate that's awesomely well manufactured, but it won't stay on my desk. Every time I turn around, a Cherry brown keyboard has taken its place.

--
fewer than, not fewer then
better than, not better then

less is used with a non countable noun, fewer used with a countable noun.

• less force, fewer grams
• less snow, fewer snowdrifts
• less enmity, fewer enemies
• less error, fewer mistakes

--



No brown in the pic? What'cha do, give away your last one to a thankless grammar policeman or something?

[InSanCen]

What kind of ALPS are in the Wang?

Pink. Despite the picture saying otherwise. White Balance is waaaaayyyyyy off.



The board itself. F keys Go all the way up to F16. I *think* that they Shift up to F32, but haven't got the board to hand to try it.

[InSanCen]

The one on the right. Trust me, they are pink. A pale pink.

The camera was waaaayyyyy off, and I never bothered fixing it. I'll take some more in a minute and post them up.

OK.  Pics taken. Yes, the board is that dirty. I received in that condition, and have never gotten round to cleaning it out. I have used it enough to try it out (The caps got a huge cleaning beforehand), but went straight back to my M. I may need to do something about it.

[ricercar]

F keys Go all the way up to F16.

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That's da bomb. Mine goes only to 11!

[InSanCen]

What coin's do you usually use? If it's Dimes, I think that a UK 5 Pence piece would be very similar in weight. It is in size.

I will get some coins in whatever denomination you use to keep the method accurate.

I've not tried black ALPS yet, but do plan on getting hold of some at some point. I need to let Her Ladyship calm down a bit though. I broke the news that I will have a TVS Gold arriving soon, and some M controllers and an active Adaptor. She was fine with this until she twigged they were all keyboard related.

[keyb_gr]

What coin's do you usually use?

Whatever you can find precise weights for, preferably not overly odd (but hey, pocket calculators exist). With my KBPC PX testing, it went like this: I started with a few 2€ coins to get some weight, added 1€ ones underneath for size reasons, then I got to 20 cent and did some fine tuning with 10 cent and smaller coins.

[bigpook]

Whats a head shop?

[Mercen_505]

I really don't think the single folks have a clue what they are in for.

Indeed, they don't. A long time friend of mine has always been single, and I've always been married. He'd listen to my sundry tales of woe, ripped straight from the tome of hard knocks, and laugh that dismissive laugh he always favored when I started going on about hormones and holidays and such. Now, our situations are reversed.

I'm getting to say "Told ya so" far too often these days!

[chimera15]

The one on the right. Trust me, they are pink. A pale pink.

The camera was waaaayyyyy off, and I never bothered fixing it. I'll take some more in a minute and post them up.

OK.  Pics taken. Yes, the board is that dirty. I received in that condition, and have never gotten round to cleaning it out. I have used it enough to try it out (The caps got a huge cleaning beforehand), but went straight back to my M. I may need to do something about it.

Show Image

Omg! Gag!

[Mental Hobbit]

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Now that's a beautiful board.
Never heard of Wang before, so I googled it...  some guy on ebay US sells 180 of them at $55 new. With shipping to Europe that would be over $100.
*Sigh*

[ricercar]

i think we need a rule about posting pics of unclean keyboards. or at least a rule about warnings and scroll space when unclean keyboard photos are posted. I don't want to stumble across anything like that atrocity ever again.

[keyb_gr]

It could be worse.

[itlnstln]

Whats a head shop?

A place to buy marijuana paraphanalia... err... tobacco pipes.  Planet K is a head shop (if you have any in your area).

[itlnstln]

You could just roll (no pun intended) into Amsterdam, too, and get just about anything you want.

[InSanCen]

i think we need a rule about posting pics of unclean keyboards. or at least a rule about warnings and scroll space when unclean keyboard photos are posted. I don't want to stumble across anything like that atrocity ever again.

Hence me not touching it unless I need to (and my reluctance to earlier in this thread). It will get cleaned thoroughly, but only when I get a real desire to type on it for a while. You have to build up to something like that.

Now that's a beautiful board.
Never heard of Wang before, so I googled it...  some guy on ebay US sells 180 of them at $55 new. With shipping to Europe that would be over $100.
*Sigh*

That, believe it or not, is the top of the atrocity after I set to it. I couldn't face the bottom once I opened it up.

[microsoft windows]

It could be worse.

Show Image

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I hate those much more than any dirty old keyboard (since I use dirty old mechanical keyboards).