Author Topic: Odd SMK-8851 compact ALPS keyboard  (Read 6476 times)

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Offline PRISONER 24601

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Odd SMK-8851 compact ALPS keyboard
« on: Wed, 08 March 2017, 21:58:27 »
I'd like to get this weird, cheap little ALPS keyboard up and running, but the detachable cable is missing and I can't find any information about the protocol. It's an SMK-8851 compact keyboard with 91 keys and alps.tw Type T5 switches.

Here's where it gets strange; this keyboard has what appear to be 2 ADB or S-video ports on either side, reminiscent of Apple's old daisy chain setup. Other versions of the SMK-8851 include that goofy dinosaur-shaped "DinoKidz" keyboard, which was available in ADB. Obviously this is a Mac keyboard, right? Well, I tried an ADB-USB converter to no avail; the lights blink when you plug it into either port, but none of the keys work. Then, to make it even more confusing, this keyboard has Windows keys and a menu key, which is pretty strange if it is indeed an Apple keyboard.

So.. is this keyboard broken or does it simply need some sort of hybrid cable? Can I figure out the protocol with a multimeter? Any help is appreciated.

Edit: this is definitely a PS/2 keyboard with an odd removable cable. My first attempt at making a cable failed, so either I wired the cable wrong OR the board is broken
« Last Edit: Fri, 10 March 2017, 04:53:59 by PRISONER 24601 »
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Offline Puddsy

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Re: Odd SMK-8851 compact ALPS keyboard
« Reply #1 on: Wed, 08 March 2017, 23:32:59 »
those are PS/2 ports for a mouse
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Offline PRISONER 24601

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Re: Odd SMK-8851 compact ALPS keyboard
« Reply #2 on: Wed, 08 March 2017, 23:57:47 »
Look closer; those ports accept a male ADB or s-video plug, not PS/2
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Offline Puddsy

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Re: Odd SMK-8851 compact ALPS keyboard
« Reply #3 on: Thu, 09 March 2017, 00:47:13 »
Look closer; those ports accept a male ADB or s-video plug, not PS/2

oh ****, no kidding

weird
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Offline nubbinator

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Re: Odd SMK-8851 compact ALPS keyboard
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 09 March 2017, 01:41:41 »
I wonder if for some reason they used a 4 pin mini din male connector on the keyboard and terminated it in a six pin.  All it would take is for them to terminate the cables on the correct pin on the six pin side.

Offline PRISONER 24601

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Re: Odd SMK-8851 compact ALPS keyboard
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 09 March 2017, 02:05:22 »
That's what I was thinking, nubbinator. The next thing I'll try is splicing together a PS/2 and ADB M/M cable, but I wanted to check with you guys first and see if anyone else ran into this problem before me.
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Offline merlin64

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Re: Odd SMK-8851 compact ALPS keyboard
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 09 March 2017, 09:23:12 »
ADB or S-Video same as what the AEK and other vintage Apple Keyboard use. Hasu has a ADB to USB converter posted that uses a teensy. You could try that.


Offline PRISONER 24601

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Re: Odd SMK-8851 compact ALPS keyboard
« Reply #7 on: Thu, 09 March 2017, 11:32:07 »
I already tried a Belkin ADB-USB active converter, with no luck
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Offline merlin64

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Re: Odd SMK-8851 compact ALPS keyboard
« Reply #8 on: Thu, 09 March 2017, 11:46:34 »
Have you tried both ports. It's my understanding that one port is for connection to the computer, and the other is to the mouse.

Offline PRISONER 24601

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Re: Odd SMK-8851 compact ALPS keyboard
« Reply #9 on: Thu, 09 March 2017, 12:46:11 »
Yuppers, i tried both. The status lights flash once, and there's no connectivity
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Offline PRISONER 24601

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Re: Odd SMK-8851 compact ALPS keyboard
« Reply #10 on: Thu, 09 March 2017, 12:47:05 »
The PCB is in good shape. No cracks, not a scratch
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Offline nubbinator

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Re: Odd SMK-8851 compact ALPS keyboard
« Reply #11 on: Thu, 09 March 2017, 12:52:47 »
Have you tried both ports. It's my understanding that one port is for connection to the computer, and the other is to the mouse.

Should be colored or marked if that's the case.  Usually they're made to plug in on either side to accommodate left and right handed users.

Offline PRISONER 24601

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Re: Odd SMK-8851 compact ALPS keyboard
« Reply #12 on: Thu, 09 March 2017, 14:07:01 »
I tried making a cable with no luck. Dang.
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Offline PRISONER 24601

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Re: Odd SMK-8851 compact ALPS keyboard
« Reply #13 on: Thu, 09 March 2017, 14:30:33 »
Maybe my wiring is just wrong. Here are the measurements I took with a cheap multimeter.
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Offline Daniel Beardsmore

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Re: Odd SMK-8851 compact ALPS keyboard
« Reply #14 on: Thu, 09 March 2017, 17:18:49 »
I'd like to get this weird, cheap little ALPS keyboard up and running, but the detachable cable is missing and I can't find any information about the protocol. It's an SMK-8851 compact keyboard with 91 keys and alps.tw Type T5 switches.

Is Type T5 definitely confirmed via disassembly? It would seem reasonable as T5 appears to be the later switch, that you'd expect to see in a keyboard of this design. Even so, having another photographically proven data point of switch plus keyboard date would be useful (and there are at least two T5 sub-types). This would also provide more data on the slider colours, as they seem a bit erratic.

Have you tried both ports. It's my understanding that one port is for connection to the computer, and the other is to the mouse.

If the keyboard cable is detachable then both ports are bidirectional: the mouse cable on Macs was short and you attached it to whichever side of the keyboard the mouse is used on. The keyboard cable would fit into the socket on the other side. Later Mac keyboards dispensed with this idea and used a fixed cable and presumably regular downstream ADB (later USB) ports.
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Offline PRISONER 24601

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Re: Odd SMK-8851 compact ALPS keyboard
« Reply #15 on: Thu, 09 March 2017, 20:33:33 »
I wasn't sure about it being type T5, so I opened the switch and took some photos. I don't have a decent camera, so I took a mix of pictures from various angles with and without flash. It indeed looks like Type T5 (B). I'm happy to contribute to the keyboard community in any way!

162447-0162449-1162451-2162453-3162455-4162457-5162459-6162461-7162463-8162465-9162467-10162469-11162471-12

ugh, sorry about the white balance. gross
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Offline PRISONER 24601

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Re: Odd SMK-8851 compact ALPS keyboard
« Reply #16 on: Fri, 10 March 2017, 00:03:43 »
Apparently it was sold as an ergo keyboard, a part of the Antec Rx series. This page verifies PS/2 connectivity!

https://web.archive.org/web/19970717023632/http://www.antec-inc.com/rx.html#keyboard
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Offline Daniel Beardsmore

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Re: Odd SMK-8851 compact ALPS keyboard
« Reply #17 on: Fri, 10 March 2017, 02:48:12 »
Interesting, thank you. Your photos are clearer than the last person who photographed this same keyboard: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56669.0

It appears that this can be classified as variant C. The contact point on the movable contact appears not to be a dimple as in variants A and B, but rather a fold like in Type T1.

I wasn't able to figure out what I was looking at last time, but now I have a better idea.
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Offline PRISONER 24601

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Re: Odd SMK-8851 compact ALPS keyboard
« Reply #18 on: Fri, 10 March 2017, 03:54:22 »
Well I'll be damned, it's a fold and not a dimple! Nice catch. Does this mean I discovered a switch (variant)? ;D
Looking back at your work in the wiki, Yeah, wow, Type T1 has the bigger switch plate and a fold, which makes these a bit different. This just made my day!
« Last Edit: Fri, 10 March 2017, 03:56:40 by PRISONER 24601 »
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Offline PRISONER 24601

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Re: Odd SMK-8851 compact ALPS keyboard
« Reply #19 on: Fri, 10 March 2017, 04:14:57 »
Coincidentally, I have another Strongman SMK-8851 (full size) with these same exact switches. I'll dump the pics here because they're 2 versions of the same keyboard; no need to make another thread.

162511-0
162513-1
162515-2
I love the red legends on the number row. I know I've seen this design on an older keyboard, but I can't remember where. The Focus-style layout is a favorite of mine, with the bigass enter, full backspace and split R-shift
162517-3
Notice the awful color matching on F2, B, N, M, etc... yuck. At least the caps are laser printed.
162519-4
162521-5
162523-6
162525-7
Is the OEM Strongman or Datacomp? The FCC IC indicates Strongman, but this KF-191 model seems identical to Datacomp's DFK-191

162527-8
162529-9
162531-10
162533-11
162535-12
162537-13
Date stamped 03 18 94? It's odd seeing an Asian manufacturer using the M/D/Y format, right? Isn't that an American thing?
162539-14
Notice the switch plate is a little crooked? That's from the factory. Luckily it still works.
162549-15

162543-16
162545-17
162547-18
Here you can clearly see the fold

« Last Edit: Fri, 10 March 2017, 05:55:30 by PRISONER 24601 »
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Offline PRISONER 24601

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Re: Odd SMK-8851 compact ALPS keyboard
« Reply #20 on: Fri, 10 March 2017, 05:42:43 »
Could this be the elusive Hua-Jie AK-C5?
I wish I could get a clear shot of the stationary contact without de-soldering the switch!
From what I can see, the stationary contact looks identical to the Type OA4 though. Tomorrow I'll pull one of the switches from the KF-91R and fully disassemble it... for science, of course.
« Last Edit: Fri, 10 March 2017, 06:10:36 by PRISONER 24601 »
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Offline Daniel Beardsmore

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Re: Odd SMK-8851 compact ALPS keyboard
« Reply #21 on: Fri, 10 March 2017, 17:56:08 »
Long story short, Strong Man and Datacomp were linked. It's all complicated, and I imagine that the variations in these switches arose in part from finding alternative (cheaper?) metal parts factories.

Prominent high companies maintain complex part number systems to track revisions. For example, while tall cream Alps is model SKCCAF, the type I bought was SKCCAF002A. The additional digits will most likely be revision codes, as the design did change with time.

At the other end of the spectrum, Taiwanese companies would be more likely to lump everything together, using the same model number for everything. I don't know if AK-CN2 followed AK-CN or AK-CN1, as CN/CN1 could be the old types (chiefly alps.tw Type OA2). A fluent Chinese speaker needs to talk to Himake and attempt to get more information — they don't speak much English.

I would not be surprised if AK-CN2/DN2 covers everything with the larger movable contact designs (T1, T4, OA2, OA4 etc) and AK-C5/D5 covers the designs with the smaller movable contact (T5 and T8). The only difference between AK-CN2/DN2 and AK-C5/D5 (aside from lifetime) is the size of the "contact blade": big (CN2/DN2) or small (C5/D5). All types have a small "spring blade"; I don't know what this is, but the click leaf is called a "click blade" and I wonder if that's what they meant, as indeed all the switches ended up using a narrow click leaf.

I took "contact blade" to be the stationary contact (since these also come in distinct sizes), but in fact it makes more sense if it's what the specifications describe as "movable blade".

So that would indeed suggest that T5/T8 are AK-C5/D5.


As for the discovery, you can have co-credit, since the variant was discovered, but you provided better photos that allowed the variant to be properly identified.


Right now, we have confirmation that Monterey bought from Himake. Other prominent users of these switches were Focus and Strong Man; Strong Man is long gone, and Focus seem to be gone too. The only other major user of these switches was Ortek, and they're around but refuse to respond — this is another company that needs to be approached by a Chinese speaker.

One reason I'm hesitant to jump to a conclusion is the apparent idea of shared/communal tooling in the Far East, with the suggestion that more than one company could have used the shell moulds. My feeling is that most of these four-tab clone types are all Himake, but I need at least one other manufacturer's confirmation (preferably of a T5 or T8 or something like OA4) before I feel we can finally declare them all Himake. Curiously, the photo Himake sent me of AK-CN2 is different again!
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Offline Daniel Beardsmore

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Re: Odd SMK-8851 compact ALPS keyboard
« Reply #22 on: Tue, 12 September 2017, 02:59:07 »
I've created a separate page for these compact SMK-8851 keyboards:

https://deskthority.net/wiki/Strong_Man_SMK-8851_compact

The Antec KF-91R has exactly the same PCB as the colourful Zebra keyboard, so I'm classing this compact variety as a model in its own right.
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Offline _haru

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Re: Odd SMK-8851 compact ALPS keyboard
« Reply #23 on: Wed, 13 September 2017, 08:27:13 »
It seems like the 'SMK-8851' model name was used for a metric crapton of keyboards. Mine is a beige 109-key JIS model with SKBM White ALPS which looks totally different to the one in this thread. I think I was the one who put that exact model in the DT wiki, not too sure about that though. This is what it looks like, though now it has a built-in Soarer's converter and pink LED underglow:

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Re: Odd SMK-8851 compact ALPS keyboard
« Reply #24 on: Wed, 13 September 2017, 14:00:49 »
Not necessarily. Yours is the big type, and the prisoner's is the small type. I've looked at three different small-type PCBs and they are the same, and the big type may also be essentially a single internal assembly with more than one case style.

As always, once people start documenting the various examples on the wiki it will all become clear. (I meant to add a couple of photos of the dino version to the above wiki page to demonstrate that the internal assembly is the same, but I see that I forgot. Oops.)
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Re: Odd SMK-8851 compact ALPS keyboard
« Reply #25 on: Wed, 13 September 2017, 18:07:29 »
Not necessarily. Yours is the big type, and the prisoner's is the small type. I've looked at three different small-type PCBs and they are the same, and the big type may also be essentially a single internal assembly with more than one case style.

As always, once people start documenting the various examples on the wiki it will all become clear. (I meant to add a couple of photos of the dino version to the above wiki page to demonstrate that the internal assembly is the same, but I see that I forgot. Oops.)

I see. The PCB in mine is the same one as in the large board Prisoner posted, judging by the controller.
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Offline FoxWolf1

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Re: Odd SMK-8851 compact ALPS keyboard
« Reply #26 on: Thu, 14 September 2017, 08:40:54 »
Reckon I've got the same PCB, controller, and plate, and a better-QC'd version of the same keycap set, as that full-size Ancer in my Oberhofer. Dimly remember my switches having an ALPS logo, though (I'm not in a position where I can afford to risk any unnecessary disassembly/keycap removal to confirm).

I miss Strong Man. Yes, the build quality and durability of their products was...well, not great, to put it charitably, and their habit of making everything 2KRO was unfortunate, but IMO they had a knack for making keyboards that felt darn good to type on that were also often very reasonably priced (not that the Oberhofer fell into that category!).
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