Few questions to HHKB owners

[test157]

hello,

Few days ago I got my HHKB PRO 2 Black/Blank and have some questions to the owners.

As I got my previous typing style was not so RIGHT, and I decided to relearn to the right style. when each finger all time (at least most) hit right buttons. I found some schemas:


and this one e.g.:


and some others, but most of them have different fingers for number row. so here are questions

1) what fingers do you use for numbers row at your  HHKB?
2) if your finger layout for letters are classic as in schemas above?
3) for arrow keys I use left FN key and pinky for all 4 arrow buttons, and mostly time don't use right FN key at all, I'm missing something?

P.S.: here is simple schema for number row, please update it with fingers U use

ESC - L5
1 - L5
2 - L4
3 - L3
4 - L3
5 - L2
6 - L2
7 - R2
8 - R3
9 - R3
0 - R4
- - R5
= - R5
\ - R5
` - R5

[test157]

but 6 number is more near to left hand isn't it? at least on hhkb but seems on any standard layout as well

[ch_123]

All questions about the HHKB keyboard layout can be put down to "It was designed by an Emacs user"

And that truly explains it all.

[test157]

so anyone here hit 6 key in number row with left hand?

number row of hhkb is pretty standard, so here imho no so much difference compared to standard boards without ergo split where 6 located in the left side.

[konz]

so anyone here hit 6 key in number row with left hand?

Yes, I do.  This is the way I was taught touch typing.

The left pinky is responsible for the one and two keys (and any keys to the left of them), the left index finger for the five and six keys, the right index finger for the seven and eight key, right ring finger for zero, and right pinky for underscore to backspace.

All split keyboards I have ever used (including the unstaggered Maltron 3D) support exactly this layout, i.e., the split is between the six and seven keys.  The Kinesis Advantage splits between the five and six keys, but I think its layout inferior, also for other reasons (e.g., square brackets).  The Datahand also splits between the five and six keys, which is a nuisance.

So I think the Wikipedia entry is wrong with regards to the "canonical" touch typing method.

[HaaTa]

In fact when I'm entering a lot of numbers I just use the number row as the home row because I've remapped grave accent to period.  Then I mapped the shifted character back to tilde for the rare game console command or if I'm feeling mathematical.  I never use grave accent anyway - maybe the Linux guys do.

And numpads are for wimps.

Grave Accent for the win!

Well I really only use it in bash scripting.

[trievalot]

Those are weird. I use index for 4/5 and 6/7 - everything else is individual finger corresponds to a number.  

And numpads are for wimps.

Filco Majestouchb separate USB numpads are not for wimps.  they have a 0 AND a 00. easier to write 10000000000

[konz]

When you start over and don't have that layout, you have 1-5 on the left and 6-0 on the right. That is logic.

[sic!]

[konz]

What you decide to use is really individual preference.

Most designers of split keyboards are also old skool, and so, "for interoperability", people would be better off sticking with that.

[DreymaR]

I keep my wrists straight as you may see. Quite a benefit. This makes it natural to divide the number row as in my figure. The numbers 3 and 8 are a toss-up between middle and ring fingers: The middle fingers are stronger but the stretch for the ring fingers may be slightly easier for you. I think it's highly individual.

At the moment, I'm using a Wide ergonomic mod which moves the rightmost key column to the middle so that the = key now sits in the old 7 position. In my opinion, that makes using the left hand for the 6 key most logical without changing the 3/8 key uncertainty.

As long as you're using keyboards that have the row stagger in the wrong direction for the left hand by default, you can't afford to get hung up on what's "logical" or the "correct" way according to old people who might as well have designed that horrible row stagger in the first place! You have to make the best of your board ergonomically (unless you go get a different hardware solution) and that may mean thinking slightly out of the box. However, try to think smart and not just new! For instance, let the strong fingers handle the most keypresses and check out if the actual stretches and twists feel comfortable.

[msiegel]

That is logic.

well in that case, how about 0123456789... where left is 0-4 and right is 5-9.

right paren moves to the - key, and _ moves to the 0 key!

XD

[ricercar]

Yup, 0 is when you have no fingers yet.

Dogma is like that am-pm thing, where we count the time 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,0

[itlnstln]

That was like that whole "2000 is the start of the millenium" thing.  No it wasn't, 2001 was.  People don't start at zero, why computers do is something I never cared to figure out.  I just know that I have to account for it when looping through stuff like a list box.

[Rajagra]

When you start counting to ten with your fingers, do you start at 0?

When you start timing your boiled eggs, do you start the timer at one?

It makes me happy when I get in a lift (elevator) and the floor buttons are numbered logically, as an offset from ground:
0=Ground floor;
1=First floor above that;
2=Second floor above ground;
etc.
And basements are -1, -2, etc.

Don't get me started about Americans calling ground floor the first floor.

[ricercar]

I remember that. We used small L for a 1 on the typewriter. Then when we started programming on the CDC64000, they got all mad when we typed L for 1 and even when we typed O for 0. What *******s.

[Rajagra]

Hemingway couldn't code worth crap.

At least he had a backspace. Meaning he couldn't actually delete anything, but he probably wrote some wicked ASCII art.

[itlnstln]

he probably wrote some wicked ASCII art.

Edgar Allen Poe could:
 

 
It's not really ASCII art, but whatever.

[itlnstln]

I hate ASCII art.  I mean, I guess it takes some talent to do, but c'mon.  I remember having to stand half-way across the room to see a fairly coherant image.  It also reminds me of warez/crackz/serialz groups.

[ricercar]

treat yourself to a coherent image.

[bigpook]

That was like that whole "2000 is the start of the millenium" thing.  No it wasn't, 2001 was.  People don't start at zero, why computers do is something I never cared to figure out.  I just know that I have to account for it when looping through stuff like a list box.

People don't start at 0 but all of the machines I work on do.
For me though, 0 is a rational place to start.
0 - 9 is the first block of ten, 10 - 19 is the second block, and so on.

don't flame me, I am just a telephone guy. Not starting with 0 will hose you up when programming a PBX.

[itlnstln]

don't flame me, I am just a telephone guy. Not starting with 0 will hose you up when programming a PBX.

It'll hose you up programming anything.  "0," other than being a placeholder, is the absence of anything, so I am not sure why anyone would start counting there.  I'm not trying to flame anyone; it's more of a philosophical question, I suppose.

[Rajagra]

I learned at least one thing while doing my maths degree. Zero is less than one, whether you are counting or measuring. So it is logical to place 0 before 1 on the keyboard. Just like it already is on the numeric pad. The inconsistency between the number pad and the main number keys should ideally be put right, but the benefit would be slim to nothing. So it will never happen no matter how aesthetically pleasing the change would look to a logical mind.

[bigpook]

outside of work, I agree with you. I just had horrible flash backs about work....cpu's start at 0, line cards start at 0. Trunks start at 0. Everything starts at 0. You count from the bottom up, not top down.
In that environment you have to respect the 0    : ) lol

[test157]

thank you for you opinions, but question is still open. I found once more variant for sun 5 layout, seems it's looks like old school layout.

anyone one use this way own HHKB? it looks good for me but really don't like 1 2 numbers for left pinky

seems it's better because for right pinky at HHKB too much keys in ohter way, when first right for pinky is 0.

I also find one new layout here: http://www.sense-lang.org/typing/tutor/index.php?lang=EN

when you are doing test it's recommends you what fingers to use, and it looks this way:

1 - L5
2 - L4
3 - L3
4 - L3
5 - L2
6 - L2
7 - R1
8 - R2
9 - R2
0 - R3
- - R4

looks wired, but for me it looks very comfortable at least at HHKB it almost ideal, but I still don't have my finger right at letters maybe it's the problem so we'll decide later when will be good enough with classic letter touch typing.

[talis]

It'll hose you up programming anything.  "0," other than being a placeholder, is the absence of anything, so I am not sure why anyone would start counting there.  I'm not trying to flame anyone; it's more of a philosophical question, I suppose.

It's really annoying when you have to flop back and forth between 0 indexing and 1 indexing in the same software.  Matlab is horrible for that, especially when writing MEX files in C (external programs you can call from within Matlab).  

I guess the differentiation between "0" and "the absence of anything" brought about the concept of NULL in a lot of languages.

[itlnstln]

The one thing that I am still struggling with is multi-key combintations like Shift+End+Down (Excel) or Ctrl+End.  Pressing a modifier, function and some other key is completely jacking up my muscle memory.

[itlnstln]

I guess the differentiation between "0" and "the absence of anything" brought about the concept of NULL in a lot of languages.

That was worded poorly on my part.  "The absence of anything" is truly null, what I was trying to get at was, in my mind, 0 means "none," so starting a count at 0 doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

[itlnstln]

That pic looks great in the dark theme.  It reminds me of my HHKB.
 
Anywho...  0 is a loaf of bread in the Mayan system?

[itlnstln]

Reminds you of your new HHKB?

[ch_123]

Actually, the 'Zeros' is only used in bastardized US English. It's rather inconsistent - who says "Heros" or "Potatos" for example?

[elbowglue]

Funny funny funny.  :clap2:

More Zero trivia.

Americans spell the plural "Zeros".

The Japanese spell it this way.

Show Image

Link for Alpsulator in my sig shows 1 (left pinkie) of 2 (left ring) Clicky Complicated ALPS Calculators in the World.  Damn that Lowpoly for doing it first (his are Blues, mine are Whites).

[itlnstln]

This is why we have a Tea Party now.

Tell me about it.  Did you hear the peice on NPR this morning about the Texas gubernatorial race?  Debra Medina is one scary *****.  She even freaked out Glenn Beck in that piece. I don't think we even have anyone from the Democrats running for governor.  It's still a two-party race, though.  Republicans on the left, Teabaggers on the right.
 
Personally, I think all the candidates are "gubers."  I really need to go get a passport.

[ricercar]

Republicans on the left, Teabaggers on the right

Too true. This is the scariest thing I've read all week.

[quadibloc]

Lol - no 1.  Ya know why?

Yes. The device in question was a typewriter, rather than a computer terminal or keypunch. As a result, its function was to produce text on paper to be read by humans, rather than to produce computer input.

For this purpose, substituting the lowercase letter L for the digit 1 in text was entirely adequate, since the characters were very similar in appearance, and human readers could determine the intended meaning from context.

While a capital letter O resembled the digit 0 as well, since one was shifted and the other was not, that would have been a more awkward substitution, and so it was not made to save an additional key on the typewriter, thus further simplifying its construction.

It may also be noted that because each key on a manual typewriter added to its cost, some early typewriters (although this went out of fashion after the 1930s ended) had around 30 keys instead of around 42 keys (44 keys, not counting the spacebar, backspace, and so on, was the "luxury" end where you had a += key and a distinct !1 key instead of using ' backspace . and l for the two characters)... achieved by having one shift to get capital letters, and another shift to get digits and most punctuation marks (. and , still had their own keys). Such typewriters were called "three-bank" typewriters, and are antiques today.

[elbowglue]

It may also be noted that because each key on a manual typewriter added to its cost, some early typewriters (although this went out of fashion after the 1930s ended) had around 30 keys instead of around 42 keys (44 keys, not counting the spacebar, backspace, and so on, was the "luxury" end where you had a += key and a distinct !1 key instead of using ' backspace . and l for the two characters)... achieved by having one shift to get capital letters, and another shift to get digits and most punctuation marks (. and , still had their own keys). Such typewriters were called "three-bank" typewriters, and are antiques today.

This sounds a little like a keyboard we know and love today..

[quadibloc]

This sounds a little like a keyboard we know and love today..

The BlackBerry, perhaps? Yes, although three-bank typewriters used the top row for the numbers rather than attempting a numpad layout. The old Corona typewriters are one well known example, and here are some others as well:

http://machinesoflovinggrace.com/3banks.htm
http://www.typewriter.be/chicago.htm
http://www.typewriter.be/corona3.htm
http://www.flickr.com/photos/monkeyrivertown/2204306819/

Debra Medina is one scary *****.  She even freaked out Glenn Beck in that piece. I don't think we even have anyone from the Democrats running for governor.  It's still a two-party race, though.  Republicans on the left, Teabaggers on the right.

It's just that the Republican primary is generating more media attention, because it is felt that a Democrat is unlikely to win in Texas.
But I think there is hope that even Texas is unprepared for a candidate like Debra Medina who is prepared to consider the possibility that 9/11 was G. W. Bush's Reichstag Fire. For which small favor we can be grateful.

[microsoft windows]

She never said that 9/11 was Bush's fault, but she didn't say it wasn't. Till she says either of those opinions, I won't make a judgement on that matter.

[ch_123]

From wiki -

She is pro-life and supports gun rights and the elimination of property taxes

Usual ****e. I wish Republicans could liven up the act a bit... Abortions for some, miniature American flags for others... stuff like that.

[itlnstln]

On top of the fact that a Democrat won't win in TX, there are no compelling candidates.  Bill White, maybe, but there really isn't anyone else remotely recognizable (Farouk Shami, if you're into professional haircare, perhaps, but he wouldn't have a chance even if he were running as a Republican).  There was Kinky Freidman last election, but he ran as an independent, so he wasn't able to leverage any party support.  This year, he was going to run as a Democrat, but he thought better about it and dropped out.
 
That said, Medina is closing in quickly on Hutchison for second place in the polls.

[kishy]

From wiki -



Usual ****e. I wish Republicans could liven up the act a bit... Abortions for some, miniature American flags for others... stuff like that.

Seconded, quack.

Edit: Whoops, you edited your post as I was quoting it.

[itlnstln]

Usual ****e. I wish Republicans could liven up the act a bit... Abortions for some, miniature American flags for others... stuff like that.

On top of that, she also mentioned in a speech some time back that she supports secession from the US (she has "taken back" that statement since).  She also plans on "getting rid of" the EPA stating that it violates state's rights, violates the Constitution, and will create jobs.  The property tax thing is a little puzzling as I am not sure where she plans on getting revenue for the state unless it's through a state income tax or sales tax, which would be self-defeating, IMO.  Her Wiki page seems to be very well controlled.

[ch_123]

To be honest, I think everyone would be better off if the traditional 'Southern' states seceded from the US. We'd  all have to listen to less whinging, and the rest of America wouldn't have to be run by inbred nutcases...

[TexasFlood]

To be honest, I think everyone would be better off if the traditional 'Southern' states seceded from the US. We'd  all have to listen to less whinging, and the rest of America wouldn't have to be run by inbred nutcases...

Don't hold back, say what you really think, :-D

[ch_123]

I dunno. When a country like America is run by bible-bashing rednecks, it's not just Americans who suffer, everyone does.

[ch_123]

I'm not sure. You would get the SS of America. It doesn't have a ring to it.

You mean like this?

[TexasFlood]

I dunno. When a country like America is run by bible-bashing rednecks, it's not just Americans who suffer, everyone does.

I've been around Texas politics a bit.  My Grandfather was a Democrat in the Texas House for 14 years, never missed a vote.  One of my best friends father was a Democrat in the Texas House for 10 years and 14 in the Senate.  Necks might have been red from time to time but neither were bible bashers.  But it's different times there now.

[itlnstln]

There is a lot of win to be passed around in this thread.
 
There is hope for Texas, though.  The major metropolitan areas tend to vote for more liberal leaders, so maybe that will balance things out (Houston just elected a lesbian mayor).  That, and the governor of TX doesn't have a whole lot of power, anyway, the lt. governor is the real power broker here.  State and national election boundries are gerrymandered, anyway, in favor of conservatism, so even if there were a push of liberalism from the big cities, it would be effectively undermined by the state's voting district boundries.
 
Note, that I am not, necessarily, pushing one agenda or another, but there is an overbearing dominance by one ideology here in Texas that has no real balance.  As we have seen in CA and IL, over-liberal states have their problems, too.  That said, I stay firmly-planted on the left.

[itlnstln]

But it's different times there now.

Really, I think it's different times all around the US. Polarization, especially during/after G.W. Bush, has caused violent ideology swings in both directions as voters have been searching for someone in the middle. People get tired of neo-con Republicans, so they vote for far left Democrats, and vice-versa, as there doesn't seem to be anyone in the middle. Politicians try so hard to undermine each other that it pushes them farther apart. IMO, our nation is in a world of hurt, because if any peice of legislation that might have some benefit is introduced, the opposite party automatically votes no. In the end, the people are the ones that suffer from all this.

[microsoft windows]

The only thing is this time, the Democrats were much worse than the corrupt Republicans.

[itlnstln]

The only thing is this time, the Democrats were much worse than the corrupt Republicans.

Case-in-point.