Author Topic: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling  (Read 25273 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline SMKNGNZ

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 0
Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« on: Wed, 17 January 2018, 17:55:46 »
During the Seattle Mechanical Keyboard Meetup on January 13th, Melissa was able to share samples of our long retired DSS keycap family with several of you. Since there appeared to be interest in producing this family again, we have decided to go ahead and tool up several shapes that are missing from today's keyboard configurations. We hope to have this tooling completed over the next few months.
The DSS family is a medium height key with a spherical matte finish touch surface (similar to DSA) and a sculptured profile. We will add a data sheet of the DSS profile to the KeyShop Resources page shortly.

Offline zslane

  • Posts: 2203
  • Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #1 on: Wed, 17 January 2018, 18:51:15 »
Will the DSS family support both double-shot and dye-sub legends?

Offline SMKNGNZ

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 0
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #2 on: Wed, 17 January 2018, 20:30:12 »
No it won't. Only double-shot. We went down that road with the double-shot (ABS) SA tooling and were very unhappy with the results, especially with the darker PBT colors. Because of the large void left to fill without a first shot insert to balance the wall thickness, the parts were subject to sink, warping, flow lines, you name it. We see the same results, to a lesser degree, with the DSA tooling which was also designed for double-shot ABS molding. New DSA PBT molds are in the schedule with a late '18 early '19 completion.

Offline zslane

  • Posts: 2203
  • Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #3 on: Thu, 18 January 2018, 12:06:50 »
Okay, so initially DSS will be double-shot ABS only? That's still pretty awesome. I look forward to this!

Offline dr_derivative

  • Posts: 280
  • Location: Cork, Ireland
  • Not a real doctor
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 18 January 2018, 12:11:31 »
Do you have any pictures of the samples? There has been a lot of talk about samples but nobody seems to have taken any pictures of them at the meetup.
GH/Reddit/DT: dr_derivative | Discord: dr_derivative#3618 | IG: dr_derivative_mk
MK Ireland Discord: https://discord.gg/2KdxJzR

Offline pixelpusher

  • Posts: 3010
  • Location: Tennessee - USA
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 18 January 2018, 13:41:07 »
Always interested in new profiles.  I've never seen DSS but I see their profile discussed in several forums.  Do they have angled stems? The profile looks bizarre to me on a flat plate.

Online Findecanor

  • Posts: 4268
  • Location: Stockholm, Sweden
  • Dans öl tarvö... "Pöngö"
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 18 January 2018, 17:05:27 »
I would like to know:
* Will there be support for ISO Enter?
* Is the surface slick (like SA) or textured (like DCS or DSA) ?

I've never seen DSS but I see their profile discussed in several forums.  Do they have angled stems? The profile looks bizarre to me on a flat plate.
In Signature Plastics' info on DSS, it looks to me like it is closer to "OEM profile" in heights but closer to DCS in which angles the top surfaces have. I think I would personally prefer that over SA.

Offline zslane

  • Posts: 2203
  • Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #7 on: Thu, 18 January 2018, 18:46:53 »
In the very first post, Bob said:

Quote
The DSS family is a medium height key with a spherical matte finish touch surface (similar to DSA) and a sculptured profile.

Offline SMKNGNZ

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 0
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #8 on: Thu, 18 January 2018, 19:44:52 »
I will post some pics of the 60% board we put together next week. The DSS top surface is a matte finish like the DSA. We need to build a number of shapes before we have it production ready: R3 2.25; R4 2.75; R1 2sp; R3 stepped 1.75; R3/4 vertical 2 space (NP); ISO key; and a 6.25 R3 space bar. A R3 6u SB is already tooled. The board Melissa had at the Seattle meetup had a DCS R4 bar that matched the R4 DSS profile but was nasty to type on.

Offline a_ak57

  • Posts: 492
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #9 on: Sun, 21 January 2018, 10:43:49 »
I will post some pics of the 60% board we put together next week. The DSS top surface is a matte finish like the DSA. We need to build a number of shapes before we have it production ready: R3 2.25; R4 2.75; R1 2sp; R3 stepped 1.75; R3/4 vertical 2 space (NP); ISO key; and a 6.25 R3 space bar. A R3 6u SB is already tooled. The board Melissa had at the Seattle meetup had a DCS R4 bar that matched the R4 DSS profile but was nasty to type on.

Are the 6u space bar's stems going to be in the same position as the 6u DSA bars, i.e. centered middle stem with outer stems that are considerably closer in than a 6u GMK bar's?

Online blighty

  • Posts: 374
  • Location: New York, USA
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 22 January 2018, 10:20:31 »
I will post some pics of the 60% board we put together next week. The DSS top surface is a matte finish like the DSA. We need to build a number of shapes before we have it production ready: R3 2.25; R4 2.75; R1 2sp; R3 stepped 1.75; R3/4 vertical 2 space (NP); ISO key; and a 6.25 R3 space bar. A R3 6u SB is already tooled. The board Melissa had at the Seattle meetup had a DCS R4 bar that matched the R4 DSS profile but was nasty to type on.

Is there already a R3 7u space bar?
LZ ergo (MX silent red) | JER - A06 (MX silent black-red springs) | Duck Lightsaver V2 (MX red) | Duck Octagon V2 (gateron clear) (lifted pads) | Duck Orion V2 (gateron red) | Realforce R2TSLA-US4-IV | Realforce R2TLSA-US4-BK | TX 75 (gateron clear) | KBDFANS 75 ("vintage" MX blues) | Kinesis Freestyle Pro (MX red) | NIZ 84EC-S (35gr) | MS Surface Ergonomic | MS Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 | Filco Majestouch 2 TKL (MX black | Phantom (Filco case) ("vintage" MX blacks | Spr1t 75% PCB x 2 (MX black and gateron clear) | Cherry G80-1865 (MX browns with black springs)

Offline SMKNGNZ

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 0
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 22 January 2018, 12:12:23 »
Pics of DSS family

Offline SMKNGNZ

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 0
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 22 January 2018, 12:23:38 »
I will post some pics of the 60% board we put together next week. The DSS top surface is a matte finish like the DSA. We need to build a number of shapes before we have it production ready: R3 2.25; R4 2.75; R1 2sp; R3 stepped 1.75; R3/4 vertical 2 space (NP); ISO key; and a 6.25 R3 space bar. A R3 6u SB is already tooled. The board Melissa had at the Seattle meetup had a DCS R4 bar that matched the R4 DSS profile but was nasty to type on.

Are the 6u space bar's stems going to be in the same position as the 6u DSA bars, i.e. centered middle stem with outer stems that are considerably closer in than a 6u GMK bar's?
We currently mold the DSA 6u space bar with a center mount and outboard mounts 1.520" from center. The DSS 6u R3 space bar has a center mount and fixed outboard mounts at 1.880" from center. We have little info on where users would like the outboard mounts located.

Offline SMKNGNZ

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 0
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 22 January 2018, 12:24:35 »
I will post some pics of the 60% board we put together next week. The DSS top surface is a matte finish like the DSA. We need to build a number of shapes before we have it production ready: R3 2.25; R4 2.75; R1 2sp; R3 stepped 1.75; R3/4 vertical 2 space (NP); ISO key; and a 6.25 R3 space bar. A R3 6u SB is already tooled. The board Melissa had at the Seattle meetup had a DCS R4 bar that matched the R4 DSS profile but was nasty to type on.

Is there already a R3 7u space bar?

No. That will need to be tooled also.

Offline T0mb3ry

  • Posts: 1493
  • Location: Germany
  • https://www.instagram.com/t0mb3ry_gh/
    • Flickr
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 22 January 2018, 14:00:45 »
Sorry if i missed and probably this has been answered already but still. How thick are the cap wals of DSS Porfile? Is it as thick as DSA or thicker?

Probably it would be nice to add some short FAQ on the front page.

Thanks.

Offline Unforgivable

  • Posts: 638
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #15 on: Mon, 22 January 2018, 14:37:30 »
Someone provide PMK with the GMK 6u Spacebar mounts please. :(

Also, this new profile looks awesome. Can’t wait! I’m hoping there will be 7u spacebars and etc., though!

Dolch love!

Offline spacewolf

  • Posts: 16
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 22 January 2018, 14:51:00 »
Thanks for bringing this back! I've been waiting for it for a while! Hopefully I can afford it when it comes out. I know it's going to be popular though.

One thing I ask, is there any way to keep 5x15 Ortholinear owners in mind. Some serious mod kit on the side would be great.

Offline SMKNGNZ

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 0
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #17 on: Mon, 22 January 2018, 14:55:48 »
Sorry if i missed and probably this has been answered already but still. How thick are the cap wals of DSS Porfile? Is it as thick as DSA or thicker?

Probably it would be nice to add some short FAQ on the front page.

Thanks.

DSS has the same wall thickness as DSA (.040").

Offline SMKNGNZ

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 0
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #18 on: Mon, 22 January 2018, 14:57:14 »
Thanks for bringing this back! I've been waiting for it for a while! Hopefully I can afford it when it comes out. I know it's going to be popular though.

One thing I ask, is there any way to keep 5x15 Ortholinear owners in mind. Some serious mod kit on the side would be great.

Not a problem. Send us a layout of the 'serious mod kit' you would like.

Offline ramnes

  • Posts: 757
  • Location: France
  • T fou, mec?
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #19 on: Mon, 22 January 2018, 15:35:18 »
Very interesting indeed. This profile comeback will be a real game changer.

Can you share more pictures?
23h18 - photekq: hhkb with silenced realforce sliders and lubricated well is
23h18 - photekq: the best switch i've used

Offline menuhin

  • Posts: 1025
  • Location: Germany
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #20 on: Mon, 22 January 2018, 15:40:57 »
Very interesting.

This completes the picture - DSA and DSS!
Wishlist: 1) hotswap gasket mount; 2) nice Alps blank caps; 3) Hipro Iris with adjustable tenting; 4) CNC POM case
More
Wishful-list: 1) All POM; 2) We order from keyboard-layout-editor.com; 3) Usable Trackpoint MK
IBM M13 black
IBM SpaceSaver II
IBM KPD8923 Trackpoint
Choc mini Gateron black
PLUM 84 'Topre-clone' 55g Korean dome
HHKB Pro 2 HasuBT
[It's not I don't like ISO, but I need the HHKB backspace... only ~90WPM, in love with Emacs, and Lisp]

Offline UsualSuspectXXX

  • Posts: 3456
  • Location: Persephone
  • (⌐■_■)⊃━☆゚.*・。゚
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #21 on: Mon, 22 January 2018, 17:29:48 »
Definitely intrigued. The sculpting looks a bit strange coming from SA, but looks like something that would be a nice alternative with a cherry-like profile.

Wish these would be a bit thicker than the DSA, but I'm definitely going to try to pick up a set.

Offline jnthnrvs

  • Posts: 27
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #22 on: Mon, 22 January 2018, 17:44:11 »
One thing I ask, is there any way to keep 5x15 Ortholinear owners in mind. Some serious mod kit on the side would be great.

Good man. Thanks for looking out for the orphans that no one wants (like me).

Offline schoolbus

  • Posts: 291
  • Location: Utah
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #23 on: Mon, 22 January 2018, 17:55:48 »
Definitely intrigued by this- as long as you can support a 75% layout I will definitely keep my eyes peeled.
Visit the Typing Test and try!

Offline neralo

  • Posts: 178
  • Location: Singapore
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #24 on: Mon, 22 January 2018, 19:55:57 »
A spherical cherry-ish profile with sculpt? And in Dolch? Ye god say no more. Sign me right up.
HHKB Pro 2 55g | TGR 910 55g Vintage Blacks | Apple Standard M0116 Orange Alps | Rosewill RK9000 Cherry MX Blues | Diverge TM 2 WKLears

Offline maartenwut

  • Posts: 205
  • Location: The Netherlands
  • I like programmable keyboards
    • Atomkb.eu
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #25 on: Tue, 23 January 2018, 03:01:58 »
This is pretty cool, I like it!

Offline zslane

  • Posts: 2203
  • Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #26 on: Tue, 23 January 2018, 11:56:50 »
At the end of the day, the DSS family will only be as good as the keycap set designs that use it...

Online Findecanor

  • Posts: 4268
  • Location: Stockholm, Sweden
  • Dans öl tarvö... "Pöngö"
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #27 on: Tue, 23 January 2018, 14:29:27 »
We currently mold the DSA 6u space bar with a center mount and outboard mounts 1.520" from center. The DSS 6u R3 space bar has a center mount and fixed outboard mounts at 1.880" from center. We have little info on where users would like the outboard mounts located.
It seems as if the 6u space bar is the least standardised.

The 1.880" from centre would seem to be the most reasonable as the stems would then be the same distance from the ends as on 6.25u and 7u space bars, but apparently  1.520" and 1.929" from centre also exist.
I measured a space bar I have from a Razer BlackWidow to 1.929" but the Razer BlackWidow listed on that Wiki page has close to 1.520".

I measured a PBT 6u space bar from a Cherry's G80-1800 or G80-11900 with off-centre switch to having the outer mounts 2×1.869" apart, and a ABS 6u DCS space bar fits on that board with a little persuasion...

A space bar with 1.880" spacing might work on a keyboard with 1.929" spacing if the keyboard has Costar-style stabilisers. (wire above the plate)

Offline BigTinz

  • Posts: 16
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #28 on: Fri, 26 January 2018, 21:21:33 »
I'm definitely in for a 104 of DSS Dolch. Please include a red ESC and Return!

Offline zslane

  • Posts: 2203
  • Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #29 on: Sat, 27 January 2018, 11:05:20 »
I'm definitely in for a 104 of DSS Dolch. Please include a red ESC and Return!

I second this suggestion! I think Dolch should be the first set out of the gate for this profile. With the full RED kit that is planned for DSA Dolch, of course!

Offline spacewolf

  • Posts: 16
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #30 on: Mon, 29 January 2018, 12:11:39 »
Thanks for bringing this back! I've been waiting for it for a while! Hopefully I can afford it when it comes out. I know it's going to be popular though.

One thing I ask, is there any way to keep 5x15 Ortholinear owners in mind. Some serious mod kit on the side would be great.

Not a problem. Send us a layout of the 'serious mod kit' you would like.

For sure. I've been meaning to plan it but I have to find a job first. Once that's taken care of I will get right to working on the layout I have in mind (unless of course you're hiring web product developers)

Online blighty

  • Posts: 374
  • Location: New York, USA
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #31 on: Wed, 31 January 2018, 15:44:26 »
I wonder if this profile will get stuck in the same production queue as SA?
LZ ergo (MX silent red) | JER - A06 (MX silent black-red springs) | Duck Lightsaver V2 (MX red) | Duck Octagon V2 (gateron clear) (lifted pads) | Duck Orion V2 (gateron red) | Realforce R2TSLA-US4-IV | Realforce R2TLSA-US4-BK | TX 75 (gateron clear) | KBDFANS 75 ("vintage" MX blues) | Kinesis Freestyle Pro (MX red) | NIZ 84EC-S (35gr) | MS Surface Ergonomic | MS Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 | Filco Majestouch 2 TKL (MX black | Phantom (Filco case) ("vintage" MX blacks | Spr1t 75% PCB x 2 (MX black and gateron clear) | Cherry G80-1865 (MX browns with black springs)

Offline zslane

  • Posts: 2203
  • Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #32 on: Wed, 31 January 2018, 18:39:00 »
Well, the good news is that DSS won't use the same second shot molds as SA. It will be more like double-shot DSA which, for reasons I don't entirely understand, has a very different (much shorter) waiting period than SA.


Offline consolation

  • Posts: 84
  • Location: NZ
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #34 on: Mon, 05 February 2018, 16:14:16 »
Pics of DSS family

Is there any chance of a plan view? Or, even a front elevation?

Offline Harms

  • Posts: 308
  • Location: Canada
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #35 on: Thu, 08 February 2018, 01:56:13 »
So will people be able to use this profile to create custom sets like how they do it with SA and DSA sets?

Would love to see this in more colorways in the future. :)

Offline UsualSuspectXXX

  • Posts: 3456
  • Location: Persephone
  • (⌐■_■)⊃━☆゚.*・。゚
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #36 on: Sat, 10 February 2018, 19:36:56 »
So will people be able to use this profile to create custom sets like how they do it with SA and DSA sets?

Would love to see this in more colorways in the future. :)

So long as people like it, I'm sure we'll see custom sets in the future.

Only problem is that new legend molds will need to be made for any of the legends that the community has had made in the past.

Offline BigTinz

  • Posts: 16
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #37 on: Mon, 12 February 2018, 13:10:25 »
Any update from SP on this?

Offline Rob27shred

  • Posts: 564
  • Location: Pittsburgh, PA
  • Too many boards, yet not enough...
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #38 on: Sun, 11 March 2018, 13:14:06 »
Any update from SP on this?

I second this, never heard about them potentially bringing this profile back until today. Very interested from what I've read here. The only thing I can say I honestly don't like is the thickness of the walls being the same as DSA. Don't get me wrong it's not nearly as bad as how thin DCS caps are, but depending on the colors I can see these caps having a ton of light bleed like lighter colored DSA caps with in switch LEDs.
« Last Edit: Sun, 11 March 2018, 13:15:45 by Rob27shred »

Offline BigTinz

  • Posts: 16
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #39 on: Mon, 11 June 2018, 15:44:34 »
My body and money are ready...

Any update on this?

Offline Jacob4341

  • Posts: 61
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #40 on: Mon, 11 June 2018, 16:13:24 »
I would love to get in on a dss set the profile looks so cool to type on.

Offline spacewolf

  • Posts: 16
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #41 on: Thu, 05 July 2018, 10:44:51 »
What ever happened to this?

Offline Gati

  • Posts: 54
  • Location: FL
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #42 on: Mon, 10 September 2018, 10:37:44 »
Is this still going to be a thing?

Offline SMKNGNZ

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 0
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #43 on: Mon, 10 September 2018, 21:14:31 »
Yes it is. We postponed tooling up the missing DSS shapes while working on the SA-P tooling. We're still a month or two away with completion of both programs. Sorry for the delay and thanks for your patience.

Offline Myoth

  • Posts: 70
  • Location: France
  • vintage/kustom
    • my deskthority profile
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #44 on: Sat, 27 October 2018, 09:40:42 »
I forgot about this profile, and I'm definitely happy to remember about it. Looking forward to this  :thumb:

Offline pixelpusher

  • Posts: 3010
  • Location: Tennessee - USA
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #45 on: Tue, 30 October 2018, 15:34:57 »
Oh man, they just updated their website saying the new PBT and the DSS caps won't be moving forward until summer of 2019.  Boo

Offline dr_derivative

  • Posts: 280
  • Location: Cork, Ireland
  • Not a real doctor
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #46 on: Tue, 30 October 2018, 16:01:20 »
Oh man, they just updated their website saying the new PBT and the DSS caps won't be moving forward until summer of 2019.  Boo

The way I read it it sounds like the new G20 tooling will be ready for summer 2019, and they're quoting the time it is taking for DSS and SA-P as the reason for that estimate. I hope we won't have to wait that long for DSS :'(

Also, for the lazy:

Quote from: SP
Many of you are wondering what happened to the G20 keysets for Semiotic and Stealth. G20 was an experiment. We wanted to test market acceptance of a fairly unique shape and profile using some prototype tooling. The results were very positive and we are now in the process of designing and building new G20 production tooling. We will continue to run G20 blanks on the prototype tooling but, due to the cosmetic challenges during printing, we will not be sublimating keysets from this prototype tooling. I'm hesitant to say when the new tooling will be production ready. Our track record for release of new tooling (SA-P, DSS) has been less than stellar, but we are hoping to have pre-production sets available by the summer of 2019.
GH/Reddit/DT: dr_derivative | Discord: dr_derivative#3618 | IG: dr_derivative_mk
MK Ireland Discord: https://discord.gg/2KdxJzR

Offline pixelpusher

  • Posts: 3010
  • Location: Tennessee - USA
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #47 on: Tue, 30 October 2018, 16:09:46 »
Quote
Many of you are wondering what happened to the G20 keysets for Semiotic and Stealth. G20 was an experiment. We wanted to test market acceptance of a fairly unique shape and profile using some prototype tooling. The results were very positive and we are now in the process of designing and building new G20 production tooling. We will continue to run G20 blanks on the prototype tooling but, due to the cosmetic challenges during printing, we will not be sublimating keysets from this prototype tooling. I'm hesitant to say when the new tooling will be production ready. Our track record for release of new tooling (SA-P, DSS) has been less than stellar, but we are hoping to have pre-production sets available by the summer of 2019.

Okay, I think you're right.  Looking forward to some nice new caps from SP :)

Offline grizzly_teddy

  • Posts: 49
  • Location: Chicago
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #48 on: Fri, 15 February 2019, 17:09:27 »
Any news about DSS?
> The way GH looks now, to a regular person, it screams, "Oh dang, this is one of **those** sites for really devoted and weird people".

Offline dr_derivative

  • Posts: 280
  • Location: Cork, Ireland
  • Not a real doctor
Re: Signature Plastics' DSS tooling
« Reply #49 on: Sun, 17 March 2019, 11:45:31 »
There was a new update about DSS on PMK's What's New page for anyone who hasn't seen it:

Quote
Production will begin shortly on a new DSS Dolch Keyset. This is the first keyset produced since the early 80's on the once retired DSS tooling. The DSS family has a medium height, sculptured profile that is slightly shorter than SA. The spherical touch surface has a matte finish like the DSA family. We hope to have DSS Dolch Keysets available in the KeyShop by the middle of April.
GH/Reddit/DT: dr_derivative | Discord: dr_derivative#3618 | IG: dr_derivative_mk
MK Ireland Discord: https://discord.gg/2KdxJzR