Author Topic: MEM 01 - Modular ergonomic mouse - 3d printed, teensy 2.0 and pmw3360 sensor  (Read 3986 times)

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Offline iso

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Re: MEM 01 - Modular ergonomic mouse - 3d printed, teensy 2.0 and pmw3360 sensor
« Reply #50 on: Tue, 05 February 2019, 11:44:04 »
Stiffest material thats still affordable is PETG carbon fiber infused, next down, PETG, next is ABS
Whats the plan/end result with the extra work on the levers ? Replace the metal ones ? Add to the length of it ? Completelly new switches ?

Offline nevin

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Re: MEM 01 - Modular ergonomic mouse - 3d printed, teensy 2.0 and pmw3360 sensor
« Reply #51 on: Tue, 05 February 2019, 12:57:13 »
Kaibz, abs switch arm... if you're still getting flex in the arm, make it thicker or add a spline to the under side & stop just short of the switch so the arm doesn't hit the housing of the switch.

iso, lever switch covers... what about printed "fingers" (covers) that fit over the lever of the switch. i know there's not much clearance, but should be able to make some little covers for the levers. ...epoxy putty.. if too difficult to fix a 3d print to the metal lever? or even a little bit of shrink tubing (would at least keep the metal from reacting to skin oils.... doubt the levers are stainless)
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Offline praxis87

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Re: MEM 01 - Modular ergonomic mouse - 3d printed, teensy 2.0 and pmw3360 sensor
« Reply #52 on: Tue, 05 February 2019, 13:02:51 »
If i may ask, some of you were talking about implementing hardware debouncing with nand gates, would this make gaming performance better for example?

Praxis was asking about sugru for levers, personally i've been trying to make some ABS levers for my omrons switches, i tried to model it like the one i found in newest logitech mouses, so i will know for sure how confortable/sturdy/efficient it is as i ordered several thicknesses, size...All i know is that using ABS it should be pretty sturdy as the bend will also be limited as it will be pretty close to the switch.

As I understand it, theoretically hardware debouncing should register multiple clicks faster than timed debouncing.  However, I've been using the timed debounce on this mouse for a couple of days now and I can't tell the difference.  Hardware debounce sounds cool but it isn't really necessary IMO.

I was suggesting sugru finger pads like some folks do to make regular mice more ergonomic - not an entire lever.  I currently have a little bit of heat shrink tubing on the levers.  It's a lot better than bare metal, but I'm going to keep tinkering.  My original thought/plan was to adapt the plastic keys from ISO's original magnetic switches to the finger cluster for the microswitches.  I think I'll have to completely re-model the finger switch cluster to implement that though.

Looking at the picture you posted earlier looks like the finger cluster is too close to the hand support piece and the tip of your fingers dont hit the center of the lever.
What can you do ? Add extra lenght to the joint assembly locking mechanism to create distance.
If your pinky is touching the table aready, you need to lenghten the joint asembly shaft that goes between base and hand support.

On the video is my hand, proper the finger tip distance touching the center of the levers, there is no need to add anything, you need to resize things properly  :))

You're probably right about me needing to push the finger cluster out further.  I'm just worried about how much flex I'm going to get out of that assembly as it already flexes somewhat.

My pinky does touch the base plate - I was thinking about making it just a little bit taller... but more so that I could tilt the hand piece a little bit more on its side.  I'm not happy with the pinky rest, but prefer having something to rest my pinking on though.

Stiffest material thats still affordable is PETG carbon fiber infused, next down, PETG, next is ABS
Whats the plan/end result with the extra work on the levers ? Replace the metal ones ? Add to the length of it ? Completelly new switches ?

I can't speak for Kaibz, but my plan with the levers was to increase the surface area of the button to make it easier to index.

Offline Kaibz

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Re: MEM 01 - Modular ergonomic mouse - 3d printed, teensy 2.0 and pmw3360 sensor
« Reply #53 on: Tue, 05 February 2019, 16:20:16 »
@iso Actually now that i think of it i guess it would make sens to just use  the metal levers but may glue a nice/longer button on it, i guess that will be trial and error:




(i m going yo look into petg i had never thought about using it)

@nevin problem is i do want some flex so it feels "confortable" to push that lever all day long so i do want some flex but once again, iterations are going to be key for that, but more iterations means higher cost.

@praxis87 Well i checked the gaming mouses i have and it seems none of those are using hardware debouncing on the switches, as the switches are spdt and the second pole is not connected to anything. however even when you click the mouse as fast as you can, you're almost sure it never misses a click? If no hardware debounce is necessary this is an extremely good news !!!


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Offline praxis87

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Re: MEM 01 - Modular ergonomic mouse - 3d printed, teensy 2.0 and pmw3360 sensor
« Reply #54 on: Tue, 05 February 2019, 16:59:19 »
@praxis87 Well i checked the gaming mouses i have and it seems none of those are using hardware debouncing on the switches, as the switches are spdt and the second pole is not connected to anything. however even when you click the mouse as fast as you can, you're almost sure it never misses a click? If no hardware debounce is necessary this is an extremely good news !!!

So I was confused when I first started to talk about "hardware" debouncing methods (imagine that... a n00b opening his mouth before he knows what he's talking about).  There is the double-throw "debounce" in firmware (this is what the PMW3360DM firmware had) that essentially waits for the other throw to change the click state.  Then there is an electrical "debouncing circuit" which can use either dual NAND gates or a resistor-capacitor network to electrically handle the switch bounce.

No, I've never noticed a missed click that I could point to in 25+ years of FPS gaming that I could attribute to the mouse.  The debounce on this mouse is like 4000us - so I'd theoretically have to click something like 250 times per second to step on the timed debounce.  I might be able to get to maybe 8 clicks in a second... maybe.

I thought about gluing something to the switch lever too... but it's such a small surface area to glue to and it's smooth metal, which is hard to glue to anyway.

Offline iso

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Re: MEM 01 - Modular ergonomic mouse - 3d printed, teensy 2.0 and pmw3360 sensor
« Reply #55 on: Tue, 05 February 2019, 18:15:13 »
I been using those switched for over 4 years on various itterations of this mouse, never crossed my mind that its too stiff, usually im in front of the computer 12h/day clicking, but i learned that people are different and have different needs.
I attached a test model you guys can modify and try print, one end of the lever has like a hook that should lock it in place. if does not work good enough, scratch the top surface of the lever with sandpaper and if you manage to print it, one very small drop of superglue then slide the plastic "sleeve" over the switch lever, wont go anywhere.

The "tip" is a separate model because you need the option to slide it over the "sleeve", find the perfect position while using the mouse and superglue it, measure it, modify the model with the sleeve and tip combined in one model and reprint

@Kaibz you dont want that pointy plastic bit stabbing your fingertip, trust me, it should be concave not convex, but there, im helping :)

Kudos to whoever manages to print with the 0.3mm gap without waping.

Offline iso

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Re: MEM 01 - Modular ergonomic mouse - 3d printed, teensy 2.0 and pmw3360 sensor
« Reply #56 on: Wed, 06 February 2019, 13:04:07 »
MEM.02

Few design changes:
1. Wrist corner  support moved back about 3mm
2. Top rib twisted counterclokwise about 10 degree
3. Added support between thumb and index
4. Ball joint that goes between the index and middle finger (most important). I will have to add a way to lock into position soon.

Print time: Approx 4h at 0.2mm, 15meter of PLA

Offline nevin

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Re: MEM 01 - Modular ergonomic mouse - 3d printed, teensy 2.0 and pmw3360 sensor
« Reply #57 on: Wed, 06 February 2019, 13:07:12 »
 nice! :thumb:
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Offline Kaibz

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Re: MEM 01 - Modular ergonomic mouse - 3d printed, teensy 2.0 and pmw3360 sensor
« Reply #58 on: Thu, 07 February 2019, 14:46:51 »
@Praxis87 Thanks for the infos, i will no try to implement hardware Debounce in that case.

Btw Can anyone confirm the PWM3360 sensor can be set to 100HZ or 500 Hz for the polling rate?

@Iso thanks for the CAD files man !!! The new design looks great. Just out of curiosity, how much did it cvost you to print you the latest version? also I've read many things about PLA and the thing that is worrying me is the fact that PLA degrades over the years and with humidity, is that a concern of yours? I'm asking as i haven't printed anything with PLA so i don't know how it actually feel.
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Offline iso

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Re: MEM 01 - Modular ergonomic mouse - 3d printed, teensy 2.0 and pmw3360 sensor
« Reply #59 on: Thu, 07 February 2019, 16:43:53 »
@Kaibz

PLA is fairly cheap, $14/kg or 330 meter shipped in US. so, few cents for the 15 meter that been used for the hand support.
Yes, PLA does degrade, I have a 3d panorama maker that I been using for over 5 years now, took it to Yellowstone and Zion and many other places, left it in the sun/rain for weeks at a time, I see some layer separation and discoloration but is holding well still. Also, I have some prototypes for some electrics enclosure that I never took outside, Utah is pretty dry, those pieces look brand new, color is consistent, no damage I can see.
For this device, I dont think you need to worry about PLA fatigue if you keep it inside and you dont constantly bend it/submerge it under water :)
There are more expensive nylons and PETG/food safe plastics that are even less prone to damage/fatigue.
Printing cost is only a problem for people that dont own a 3d printer and this device is still something Im gonna keep improving, so, you can print every now and then, every 6 months the newest version, since has interchangeable parts you save money by only printing what you need, not the whole thing.

NOTE: Previous model has an error, the ball joint for the support that goes in between index and middle finger is off to the right by about 5 mm, sorry for that, I will correct the model soon and reupload

!! Do not print the MEM.02 hand support. !!


Offline iso

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Re: MEM 01 - Modular ergonomic mouse - 3d printed, teensy 2.0 and pmw3360 sensor
« Reply #60 on: Mon, 11 February 2019, 18:31:23 »
Hi.


Hand support model been modified, added lots of little changes, too many to mention them one by one but here`s the most important.

1. Added new linkage for extra strength from the ball joint area to the hand support.
2. Added small finger separators on the frame itself.
3. Lightened the frame, removed some of the areas where there is no reason for a full fill.
4. Remodeled the support for index/middle finger.

The ZIP file contains a very high poly OBJ and low poly OBJ, I know modifying a high poly model is very hard, impossible for beginners, now there are 2 versions of same model and you can use your favorite 3d modeling program to add as much details as you need and have control over the smoothness o the final product.

Im trying to modify the firmware to do 1400 DPI by default, 2000 high/800 low, not 800 - 1200 high/400 low, the way it is right now but im having all sorts of problems compiling the right file.
If someone can do that for the rest us and upload the HEX, I`d very much appreciate it. I`m reuploading the firmware too with a PDF that explains what lines need modification.





Offline nevin

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Re: MEM 01 - Modular ergonomic mouse - 3d printed, teensy 2.0 and pmw3360 sensor
« Reply #61 on: Tue, 12 February 2019, 00:06:10 »
taking a peek at the firmware, is the resolution the only thing you're trying to change?
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Offline nevin

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Re: MEM 01 - Modular ergonomic mouse - 3d printed, teensy 2.0 and pmw3360 sensor
« Reply #62 on: Tue, 12 February 2019, 00:06:40 »
i didn't see the PDF you mentioned in the two attached files.
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Offline nevin

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Re: MEM 01 - Modular ergonomic mouse - 3d printed, teensy 2.0 and pmw3360 sensor
« Reply #63 on: Tue, 12 February 2019, 01:10:34 »
ok. the way the config works is you don't actually enter the dpi you want, there's a built-in calculation it does and you have to have the right variable to get the resolution you want.

// Enter into the brackets which DPI you want available.
// The numbers represent the DPI: for example (3+1)*100 = 400 DPI, (15+1)*100 = 1600 DPI.
// So the below example can be read as: 400, 800, 1600.
// uint8_t dpis[] = {3, 7, 15};

so in your case you want:
uint8_t dpis[] = {7, 13, 19};
## representing 800, 1400, 2000 dpi
   - now, if the 800 & 2000 are in the wrong orientation to what you prefer we can switch it as it's saying that the first number "800" is profile 2, "1400" is profile 1/default, and "2000" is profile 3

// The first number is for Profile 2 (rear side button)
// The second number is for profile 1 (Default profile)
// The third number is for profile 3 (front side button)

if you were trying to change it and it wasn't changing, my guess, the values were stated in another one of the files. so i opened them all did a grep search for "dpi" and sure enough it was noted in "bst3360.lss" & "main.lst" as well with the default values you're trying to change.

i've run across this before, you're supposed to change a value in... say "config.c" but that same value is stated in a couple other files it references when it compiles and the "config" file has the least authority over the other files.... so the variables you're trying to change, don't actually get changed.

also, when compiling, make sure you either delete the previous .hex file or at least rename it so you get a clean, fresh compiled file & there can't be an issue with duplicate file names, etc... not saving the new hex file because the file exists or is open....

i like to keep an organized set of folders (OUTSIDE of the "firmware" folder because the compiler has full authority over the "firmware" folder and can delete any usable hex files) with successful hex files, naming the folders with what i'll know the changes were. as all the hex files will have the same name

/mouse
   /initial working/bst3360.hex
   /changed dpi/bst3360.hex

another note when compiling after the 1st attempt.... make sure you "clean" before you rebuild "all" meaning...
// To rebuild project do "make clean" then "make all". (this clears out all the intermediate config & other "old" files)

config is also defaulted to "Teensy 2.0" MCU = atmega32u4, pretty sure that's what you're using, but please confirm.

i don't have the hardware yet to test it, but i didn't have any issues/errors compiling it either, so give it a shot & see if it works. you should easily be able to tell the resolution difference, the mouse will feel a lot quicker. going from 400/800/1600 -to- 800/1400/2000
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Offline praxis87

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Re: MEM 01 - Modular ergonomic mouse - 3d printed, teensy 2.0 and pmw3360 sensor
« Reply #64 on: Tue, 12 February 2019, 09:18:05 »
Nice work nevin!

I am currently using your firmware and it's working great.

Offline nevin

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Re: MEM 01 - Modular ergonomic mouse - 3d printed, teensy 2.0 and pmw3360 sensor
« Reply #65 on: Tue, 12 February 2019, 09:37:42 »
great! glad it's working.

i'll post the firmware folder with these changes later today.
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Offline iso

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Re: MEM 01 - Modular ergonomic mouse - 3d printed, teensy 2.0 and pmw3360 sensor
« Reply #66 on: Tue, 12 February 2019, 11:51:08 »
Thanks @nevin - Its working, good job.

I just ordered some ring multipole magnets from the link above, shipping was more than the product itself and those are tiny tiny magnets.
I`ll have to find some beefier ones somewhere in China, bought those to confirm that a certain type of magnet is needed for the reed magnetic encoder to work with unmodified firmware, then move on with better hardware to a definitive design for the thumb scroll.
If finding the right thickness/radius fails, the only option left is to get some 2mm round magnets and glue them to a printed wheel, I sense what will drive the cost down by alot. I can get 200 2mm magnets for $7 from China, shipped and use max 30 magnets/wheel.


Offline nevin

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Re: MEM 01 - Modular ergonomic mouse - 3d printed, teensy 2.0 and pmw3360 sensor
« Reply #67 on: Tue, 12 February 2019, 12:08:35 »
.... talk about reinventing the wheel.... lol. awesome job guys! :thumb:
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Offline nevin

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Re: MEM 01 - Modular ergonomic mouse - 3d printed, teensy 2.0 and pmw3360 sensor
« Reply #68 on: Tue, 12 February 2019, 23:59:13 »
attached is the firmware folder with the resolution changes for anyone else that wants to edit further & compile their own hex.

the edit/changes to this copy of the firmware:

uint8_t dpis[] = {7, 13, 19};
## representing 800, 1400, 2000 dpi
   - now, if the 800 & 2000 are in the wrong orientation to what you prefer we can switch it as it's saying that the first number "800" is profile 2, "1400" is profile 1/default, and "2000" is profile 3

// The first number is for Profile 2 (rear side button)
// The second number is for profile 1 (Default profile)
// The third number is for profile 3 (front side button)

* bst3360_firmware.zip (183.65 kB - downloaded 5 times.)
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Offline praxis87

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Re: MEM 01 - Modular ergonomic mouse - 3d printed, teensy 2.0 and pmw3360 sensor
« Reply #69 on: Tue, 19 February 2019, 13:16:13 »
I've been working on this some more tweaking parts and I'm at a branching point before I try to integrate a salvaged optical scroll wheel.

Highlights:
- completely re-built the finger switch carrier and adjusted it to the length and spacing of my fingers
- spread the thumb rest area on the hand piece out even more
- split the clamp for the finger switch carrier and added a hole for a bolt to tighten it independently
- re-designed the thumb buttons (still unhappy with them - I have still yet to get the button covers right and keep taking them off)
- raised the sensor container height to remove the extra feet height requirement and allow the use of just mouse skates on the bottom
- changed the angle of the thumb and pinky attachment split clamp
- raised the main ball mount another few mm so I can tilt the hand piece more

Upcoming:
- replace center button with scroll wheel/center button combo carrier
- version 4 thumb button carrier

Please forgive the wiring.  I haven't bothered to do much to put it away as I intend to tear it all out again.

Need to trim my stls a bit - the current batch of files is ~400mb.  I will make them available if anyone wants them though.

Offline nevin

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Re: MEM 01 - Modular ergonomic mouse - 3d printed, teensy 2.0 and pmw3360 sensor
« Reply #70 on: Tue, 19 February 2019, 13:33:03 »
nice.
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Offline iso

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Re: MEM 01 - Modular ergonomic mouse - 3d printed, teensy 2.0 and pmw3360 sensor
« Reply #71 on: Wed, 20 February 2019, 11:22:15 »
Hi

@praxis87 - nice.

Do you find that you constantly need to adjust the buttons/wrist position/angles, or like me, once I find the right position I dont need to doit anymore ?

Why im asking

The ammount of customisation is there mainly because  once the user is done adjusting everything in position, can measure distances between various elements and "fuse" the model to create a very compact/stiff shell that dont need adjusting except maybe for the sensor angle. My other mouse mod with the logitech sensor is exacly that, that is the end result. I mean yeah, looks cool with wires and all that but stiffness is important as plastic will fatigue in time and sooner or later you`ll have to re-print bits.



Offline praxis87

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Re: MEM 01 - Modular ergonomic mouse - 3d printed, teensy 2.0 and pmw3360 sensor
« Reply #72 on: Wed, 20 February 2019, 12:50:42 »
@iso

I assume that you're primarily asking about why I bothered splitting the clamp for the finger cluster.  I've been using this mouse (at work) in various iterations for ~3 weeks now and I've had a lot of folks ask about it and want to touch it (and some of them messed up the adjustment in the early versions).  What I found is that the finger cluster got looser and looser no matter how tight I got the wing nut for the assembly (and I've been tightening it by pushing on the wings with a screwdriver until I can't tighten it anymore).  So I realized that I needed more clamping directly on the ball (and maybe my bolt head was/is interfering with the clamping).  Since I changed the clamp I haven't moved the finger cluster once.

I hear what you're saying about fusing the model and printing it solid - essentially using the model as a measuring device for another product... but I don't know if I could measure my setup accurately enough to replicate it to my satisfaction in a modeling program nor am I sure that I want to.  I could see gluing it in place... but with the new finger cluster clamp that hasn't seemed necessary.  I also like the idea of anyone being able to print it, adjust it, and just tighten it in place.

Maybe my opinion will change after a couple of months of use and I see how it wears.  I definitely share with your concerns about stiffness.  There definitely is a lot of torque being applied to the main ball head - that's why I stiffened up the main ball that everything rides on and printed it with more perimeters.  It still flexes a little, but it's a lot better  And the finger assembly got a bit stiffer when I changed the clamp design to better accommodate the M3 hex head bolts that I am using (so I could really tighten it down). 

Not sure I said this earlier - but thanks for publishing your design and being open minded about the butchery inflicted on it.  It's already helped my hand/wrist a lot.

Offline nevin

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Re: MEM 01 - Modular ergonomic mouse - 3d printed, teensy 2.0 and pmw3360 sensor
« Reply #73 on: Wed, 20 February 2019, 14:29:14 »
question for you guys... with ergonomics in mind, what keyboards do you use?
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Offline praxis87

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Re: MEM 01 - Modular ergonomic mouse - 3d printed, teensy 2.0 and pmw3360 sensor
« Reply #74 on: Wed, 20 February 2019, 14:39:30 »
question for you guys... with ergonomics in mind, what keyboards do you use?

Use? Microsuck natural ergonomic 4000

I'm building a 5x6 Dactyl-Manuform.  As soon as it's done (waiting on rubber feet, of all things), that M$ keyboard is gone.

Offline nevin

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Re: MEM 01 - Modular ergonomic mouse - 3d printed, teensy 2.0 and pmw3360 sensor
« Reply #75 on: Wed, 20 February 2019, 15:03:14 »
praxis, yeah, i really like the look of those (and the original dactyl) but i didn't want to go that small (5x6 or smaller). so, i am currently using split 5x7s i put together. in my opinion, it's the easiest transition into split ortho/alternative layout type boards as you get a standard number row & plenty of keys that you don't have to bury common keys in layers. i really like it, getting the space between the two halves makes a big difference. haven't ventured into tenting yet, but i don't hold my hands right to do tenting either (lazy... wrist rest).
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Offline iso

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Re: MEM 01 - Modular ergonomic mouse - 3d printed, teensy 2.0 and pmw3360 sensor
« Reply #76 on: Wed, 20 February 2019, 15:26:12 »
@praxis87 - People modifying my design does not bother me one bit, I welcome it, hive mind is always better. Even now with the model available, yours and mine, most people will not take the time to modify it and save their wrist. Feel free to print it for your coworkers and make a buck, buy me a pizza from time to time :)

@nevin - MEK01 coming soon, my main printer died and Im waiting for parts from China, I have the models and  finish the designed thumb cluster and use my second printer but I rather wait 2 weeks to get my delta together.

At the bottom module I`ll have a trackpad. Some keys are missing as I dont know what keys I want yet. Keycaps are printed too, custom font/size, ultraflat. Yes, I`ll make the models available.

Offline nevin

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Re: MEM 01 - Modular ergonomic mouse - 3d printed, teensy 2.0 and pmw3360 sensor
« Reply #77 on: Wed, 20 February 2019, 17:02:38 »
WOW!

i can see why the printer died. you must have had that printer running 24/7
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Offline praxis87

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Re: MEM 01 - Modular ergonomic mouse - 3d printed, teensy 2.0 and pmw3360 sensor
« Reply #78 on: Wed, 20 February 2019, 17:45:52 »
@iso

That's really cool!  Got to respect a man willing to go FULL CUSTOM.