Author Topic: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards  (Read 640065 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Azurewrath

  • Posts: 37
  • Location: Munich, Germany
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2400 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 14:31:42 »
Is there anything that you would need as far as layout/function that the F77 can't do? It can basically be configured exactly the same way as an M, with Windows keys to boot.
Well, there is no nav cluster and no arrow keys. I just want a normal standardized full size ISO 105 layout. :)
(Yes, i know there's layers and such.. but that's a really poor substitute imho.)

Offline ljosa

  • Posts: 15
  • Location: Massachusetts
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2401 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 14:47:40 »
Azurewrath, check out the FEXT project: https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?t=10744

Offline Maledicted

  • Posts: 1825
  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2402 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 14:54:40 »
Is there anything that you would need as far as layout/function that the F77 can't do? It can basically be configured exactly the same way as an M, with Windows keys to boot.
Well, there is no nav cluster and no arrow keys. I just want a normal standardized full size ISO 105 layout. :)
(Yes, i know there's layers and such.. but that's a really poor substitute imho.)

There's whatever you want. You can have a standard ISO alphanumeric cluster and whatever you want in the traditional nav cluster area to the right of that. Only the F62 would require resorting to layers for arrow keys. The F77 would only need layers if you wanted a number pad and nav cluster. If I needed to use layers for arrow keys, I wouldn't want one either.

Offline Azurewrath

  • Posts: 37
  • Location: Munich, Germany
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2403 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 15:15:36 »
There's whatever you want. You can have a standard ISO alphanumeric cluster and whatever you want in the traditional nav cluster area to the right of that. Only the F62 would require resorting to layers for arrow keys. The F77 would only need layers if you wanted a number pad and nav cluster. If I needed to use layers for arrow keys, I wouldn't want one either.
I'm talking about a full normal standardized layout. That means nav cluster and a numpad.

Offline rgleas

  • Posts: 31
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2404 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 19:08:45 »
Is there anything that you would need as far as layout/function that the F77 can't do? It can basically be configured exactly the same way as an M, with Windows keys to boot.
Well, there is no nav cluster and no arrow keys. I just want a normal standardized full size ISO 105 layout. :)
(Yes, i know there's layers and such.. but that's a really poor substitute imho.)

The F77 does indeed have arrow keys..

Offline Ellipse

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1245
  • Location: New York
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2405 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 22:28:48 »
Hi Azurewrath - as a note the F77 now offers 6 right side block layouts, including one with separate cursor keys and individual number keys, as well as layouts with number pads and separate +, Enter, and other keys. 

In my experience talking with those who have joined the new Model F project, many are coming from larger layouts to the more compact 60% and 75% layouts for this project. 

There are some renderings of the various layouts and right side block options on both of the F77 product pages:
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/f77-model-f-keyboard/
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/f77-model-f-keyboard-ultra-compact/

Offline Azurewrath

  • Posts: 37
  • Location: Munich, Germany
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2406 on: Fri, 01 May 2020, 00:37:20 »
I appreciate all of your answers, don't get me wrong, but i'm really only talking about a standard full layout, nothing else.

Offline Maledicted

  • Posts: 1825
  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2407 on: Fri, 01 May 2020, 09:48:04 »
I appreciate all of your answers, don't get me wrong, but i'm really only talking about a standard full layout, nothing else.

Then what you need is one of these monstrosities:

F107


Or, one of these monstrosities:

F122


The photos are Ellipse's, I hope he doesn't mind.

Offline hashbaz

  • Grand Ancient One
  • * Moderator Emeritus
  • Posts: 5057
  • Location: SF Bae Area
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2408 on: Fri, 01 May 2020, 12:25:33 »
Hey Ellipse, what's the latest on the new printed keycaps? Apologies if I missed an update somewhere.

Offline depletedvespene

  • Posts: 829
  • Location: Chile
  • Old, used-up vespene geyser.
    • Keyboard-related resources.
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2409 on: Sat, 02 May 2020, 15:59:36 »
Sorry if this has been asked before, but did you ever think of making and selling a "Model MF"? What i mean by this is: Model F high quality internals/switches and maybe a full metal case and the modern layout of the full size (ISO 105) Model M? That combined with a USB-C Port and it would be perfect.

I think that the purpose of this project was to reproduce the F62 and F77 specifically, as the originals are exceedingly rare. I wish he had made a new production F107, but those are apparently common enough to not be on the radar.

Is there anything that you would need as far as layout/function that the F77 can't do? It can basically be configured exactly the same way as an M, with Windows keys to boot. The only difference is you choose how you want that separate cluster of keys on the right to be configured. Mine has TKL-style arrow keys, media controls, and delete, print screen, and escape. You could configure it like a standard TKL, or a number pad.

Ultimately, the lack of an F row is a serious hindrance for people who use heavily the F row (including in this the mess that is mixing the `~ and Esc keys); for them, 60% and 65% form factors are unusable (*) and 75% is the minimum (**). Getting these repros to cover the TKL and/or the 75% form factors would be an instant "shut up and take my money!" moment.


(*) No, "Just use Fn+5 to make F5!" ain't enough. A two-key chord isn't much of a problem, but Ctrl-F5 (Fn-Ctrl-5) becomes uncomfortable, and stuff like Ctrl-Alt-F9 outright unpleasant.

(**) Heck, this can already be seen in people who prefer the 77-key layout over the 62-key one because of the lack of independent arrow keys.

Offline Maledicted

  • Posts: 1825
  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2410 on: Sat, 02 May 2020, 16:40:55 »
Sorry if this has been asked before, but did you ever think of making and selling a "Model MF"? What i mean by this is: Model F high quality internals/switches and maybe a full metal case and the modern layout of the full size (ISO 105) Model M? That combined with a USB-C Port and it would be perfect.

I think that the purpose of this project was to reproduce the F62 and F77 specifically, as the originals are exceedingly rare. I wish he had made a new production F107, but those are apparently common enough to not be on the radar.

Is there anything that you would need as far as layout/function that the F77 can't do? It can basically be configured exactly the same way as an M, with Windows keys to boot. The only difference is you choose how you want that separate cluster of keys on the right to be configured. Mine has TKL-style arrow keys, media controls, and delete, print screen, and escape. You could configure it like a standard TKL, or a number pad.

Ultimately, the lack of an F row is a serious hindrance for people who use heavily the F row (including in this the mess that is mixing the `~ and Esc keys); for them, 60% and 65% form factors are unusable (*) and 75% is the minimum (**). Getting these repros to cover the TKL and/or the 75% form factors would be an instant "shut up and take my money!" moment.


(*) No, "Just use Fn+5 to make F5!" ain't enough. A two-key chord isn't much of a problem, but Ctrl-F5 (Fn-Ctrl-5) becomes uncomfortable, and stuff like Ctrl-Alt-F9 outright unpleasant.

(**) Heck, this can already be seen in people who prefer the 77-key layout over the 62-key one because of the lack of independent arrow keys.

I have no need for the f keys myself (other than preboot menus?), and have an escape key on my F77. To each their own. A reproduction F107 is something I know I wanted.

Offline depletedvespene

  • Posts: 829
  • Location: Chile
  • Old, used-up vespene geyser.
    • Keyboard-related resources.
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2411 on: Sat, 02 May 2020, 16:45:02 »

I have no need for the f keys myself (other than preboot menus?), and have an escape key on my F77. To each their own. A reproduction F107 is something I know I wanted.

To each his own, of course. As per me, I'd really like to see the F62/F77 repros to be extended to the TKL format (and forget the disappointment of the FSSK) and to the 75% or even 79% form factors (something that never existed in IBM's offerings).

Offline Maledicted

  • Posts: 1825
  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2412 on: Sat, 02 May 2020, 19:06:55 »

I have no need for the f keys myself (other than preboot menus?), and have an escape key on my F77. To each their own. A reproduction F107 is something I know I wanted.

To each his own, of course. As per me, I'd really like to see the F62/F77 repros to be extended to the TKL format (and forget the disappointment of the FSSK) and to the 75% or even 79% form factors (something that never existed in IBM's offerings).

Maybe that's a possibility over the horizon. I imagine not having to worry so much about strict adherence to/recreation of the original design would significantly speed up development and production, and he's already done the hard part in resurrecting a dead switch type. Even with the current offerings, I would love an option to just get the assembled board with no QC done, or even just the parts to assemble it, at a discount. You would think that would significantly speed up pumping these things out to people who know enough about capacitive buckling spring for it to be a non-issue for them.

Offline Ellipse

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1245
  • Location: New York
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2413 on: Mon, 11 May 2020, 12:30:39 »
I have just posted another update on the project blog:  https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/blog/

Summary: Model F orders continue shipping out, Passed ONE MILLION DOLLARS in orders, New Early Shipping Option without Keys, Reviews coming in, Sublimation Update, Second Container Ship, COVID-19 Slowdown, xwhatsit firmware update and new QMK firmware ported to xwhatsit Model F

**If you can help me by requesting early delivery of your order it would be much appreciated! Kindly see the web site blog for details before sending over your request.

I wanted to highlight the update about the dye sublimation as a number of people have been asking about it:

Sublimation update – mass sublimation expected to start in June.  Given the huge number of orders so far and the amount of time I’ve recently realized it takes to QC each keyboard order, plus the longer than expected time it would take me to do each key set’s dye sublimation personally as planned, I am working with some keycap dye submination firms to take my keys and transfer sheets and take care of the work 100% to the sublimation standards I’ve already achieved, thus saving me time and allowing the orders to go out much faster than planned. This will ensure that the dye sublimation quality is up to my standards, as well as save the months of continuous dye sublimation I’d be doing – leaving me time to focus on the final QC and on getting orders out more quickly. This will help everyone’s orders to go out earlier than if I were to take care of them as originally planned, while using 100% the same materials that have produced the approved XT quality sublimation results so far (see recent blog posts for photos).

***For this reason I am sending out keyboards upon request without keys, in order to keep things moving. I encourage everyone to take advantage of this option to help me fill up the downtime by getting out orders before the keycaps finish mass sublimation. Those of you with other buckling spring (Model M or Model F) keyboards can use those keys for the time being, or order keys from Unicomp or eBay to use for the time being. Please message me first if interested and I will let you know how many units of the store item $1 increments you’ll need to order for separate shipping of printed keys (everyone can still wait for their full order to be delivered in one package too).

Once the sublimated keys come in I will be ramping up order fulfillment in order to get as many keyboards out each week as possible.  I am hoping to have everything out by year end.  Thanks again to everyone for their patience as we bring back these great keyboards.

Offline pixelpusher

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 3758
  • Location: Tennessee - USA
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2414 on: Mon, 11 May 2020, 20:55:17 »
Thanks for the update.

I think that's asking a lot for people to buy keys or harvest from their boards, but I guess I understand the basic concept behind it.  Also, you really should have outsourced the dye sublimation a year ago.

Monday morning quarterbacking, I know.  But the good news is that things are still moving forward.

Offline Ellipse

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1245
  • Location: New York
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2415 on: Fri, 15 May 2020, 21:16:35 »
A few people were asking about solenoids - a Deskthority user has added a solenoid to his Brand New Model F Classic Case Keyboard.

The challenge is to find a good solenoid and a solenoid driver board.  GH/DT user Orihalcon was selling these but not sure if there are any left.

https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=23707&p=462600&hilit=f62#p462600

I saw this one as a suggestion a while back - not sure if it is a good option:   https://www.ebay.com/itm/0837L-06K-6V-0-15A-5mm-20g-First-Stroke-Push-Solenoid-Electromagnet-with-Base/271967978003

Offline Vizir

  • Posts: 293
  • Location: Tulsa, OK
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2416 on: Fri, 15 May 2020, 22:25:29 »
A few people were asking about solenoids - a Deskthority user has added a solenoid to his Brand New Model F Classic Case Keyboard.

The challenge is to find a good solenoid and a solenoid driver board.  GH/DT user Orihalcon was selling these but not sure if there are any left.

https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=23707&p=462600&hilit=f62#p462600

I saw this one as a suggestion a while back - not sure if it is a good option:   https://www.ebay.com/itm/0837L-06K-6V-0-15A-5mm-20g-First-Stroke-Push-Solenoid-Electromagnet-with-Base/271967978003
Thanks for that info. Will look into it.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


Offline BlissOnTap

  • Posts: 11
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2417 on: Wed, 20 May 2020, 16:52:01 »
Is info@modelfkeyboards.com the best way to get in contact? I sent an email to that address 9 days ago and haven't heard back. Or is going through Geekhack or Deskthority forum's PM the preferred way?

Offline Ellipse

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1245
  • Location: New York
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2418 on: Wed, 20 May 2020, 17:09:31 »
Yep that works!  Sorry Bliss, still going through a couple hundred new emails since the update! 

Offline BlissOnTap

  • Posts: 11
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2419 on: Wed, 20 May 2020, 19:50:40 »
I thought that might be the case, too. Thank you for all your hard work.

Offline Ellipse

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1245
  • Location: New York
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2420 on: Fri, 22 May 2020, 21:55:39 »
Apologies for the delay - I have processed all the early shipping requests through yesterday.  Looking at 133 keyboards requested so far. (have not shipped all these requests - just preparing for shipment)

This early shipping option should be available on an ongoing basis until I can start sending out the sublimated keys.

Also as an update the QMK firmware porting process continues to progress nicely.  I have seen the QMK online configuration tool and it is easy to use - the advantage is that you can update the keys while graphically visualizing the physical locations of the keys, unlike xwhatsit where you have to press a key to see where on the matrix it is, in order to adjust its value.  Also planned is a GUI configuration tool for offline use on Windows, Mac, and Linux.  Big thanks to the QMK team, pandrew, tentator, and everyone else involved in the project!
« Last Edit: Tue, 02 June 2020, 10:03:37 by Ellipse »

Offline Ellipse

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1245
  • Location: New York
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2421 on: Tue, 26 May 2020, 22:31:53 »
In the coming days I will be sending out many of the early requested keyboards - will reply to the recent requests once I have sent out most of the current requests.

Inner foam update:  the foam material I chose for the project was a far higher quality/durability type of foam than what IBM used.  The foam has been known to last for many years and does not crumble with age like some of IBM's foam.  The downside is that it is a little denser and therefore may make these keyboards ever so slightly less noisy.  For the final round I am thinking about offering a more authentic foam that is very similar to the non-crumbly foam that IBM used in some of their Model F keyboards (the foam is so good that this 1980s foam still looks and performs well in these old keyboards today!).  After a long search I finally believe I identified the right material.  In the end I will probably offer the denser foam as a choice when getting extra foam in case people want an ever so slightly quieter Model F, but not as an installed option (would add too much complexity and probably not make a sound difference that most folks would notice).

Offline Maledicted

  • Posts: 1825
  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2422 on: Wed, 27 May 2020, 11:29:26 »
In the coming days I will be sending out many of the early requested keyboards - will reply to the recent requests once I have sent out most of the current requests.

Inner foam update:  the foam material I chose for the project was a far higher quality/durability type of foam than what IBM used.  The foam has been known to last for many years and does not crumble with age like some of IBM's foam.  The downside is that it is a little denser and therefore may make these keyboards ever so slightly less noisy.  For the final round I am thinking about offering a more authentic foam that is very similar to the non-crumbly foam that IBM used in some of their Model F keyboards (the foam is so good that this 1980s foam still looks and performs well in these old keyboards today!).  After a long search I finally believe I identified the right material.  In the end I will probably offer the denser foam as a choice when getting extra foam in case people want an ever so slightly quieter Model F, but not as an installed option (would add too much complexity and probably not make a sound difference that most folks would notice).

Personally, I want whatever is going to last the longest on mine. The F77 I picked up on Ebay, which I imagine has the denser foam, sounds great as it is. I would rather have it last, all things considered. I should compare how it sounds against my F107 though, now that I have one. I'm pretty sure the crap that's in there is original, and not in the best of shape. Which Model Fs had the non-crumbly foam you speak of?

Offline Ellipse

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1245
  • Location: New York
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2423 on: Wed, 27 May 2020, 11:37:40 »
Both foam types are durable and long lasting - the difference is just in the density and authenticity of materials.  Many keyboards have instances of the better IBM foam (non crumbly) such as the XT, one of my original F77 keyboards (refurbished by IBM in 1991), and probably other models.  The 107 and 122's (and some XT's) seemed to favor the crumbly foam.  Interestingly the side foam strips are the crumbly type on the better IBM foam.

243633-0
243637-1
« Last Edit: Wed, 27 May 2020, 11:42:18 by Ellipse »

Offline Maledicted

  • Posts: 1825
  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2424 on: Wed, 27 May 2020, 12:01:05 »
Both foam types are durable and long lasting - the difference is just in the density and authenticity of materials.  Many keyboards have instances of the better IBM foam (non crumbly) such as the XT, one of my original F77 keyboards (refurbished by IBM in 1991), and probably other models.  The 107 and 122's (and some XT's) seemed to favor the crumbly foam.  Interestingly the side foam strips are the crumbly type on the better IBM foam.

That's freaking cool. I didn't even know that IBM did that. I haven't seen one of those repair history cards inside of an IBM keyboard before ... probably because they're IBM keyboards, must be like finding a mermaid and unicorn in a leprechaun's pot of gold.

Informative post, as always. Makes me want to take a peek inside of my F XT again. I do think that one's foam was surprisingly intact.

Offline Ellipse

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1245
  • Location: New York
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2425 on: Thu, 28 May 2020, 09:46:09 »
xwhatsit question - what is the simplest way to clear the xhwatsit's settings while connected to a Windows computer, if it's already programmed - as soon as it's connected to a computer it outputs keys (possibly the wrong threshold setting).

I was thinking of entering bootloader mode and then running xwhatsit's EEPROM_eraser.hex file but wanted to double check.

Offline mikaltch

  • Posts: 2
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2426 on: Fri, 29 May 2020, 12:27:32 »
Stumbled across some excitement about this new wireless bluetooth add-on for bluetooth keyboards lately. Wondering if this is of any use since apparently it can be a drop in replacement for a ProMicro which has been used on Model M/F boards before. 

https://www.reddit.com/r/mechmarket/comments/gst1n6/ic_nicenano_the_super_thin_wireless_bluetooth/

Offline Maledicted

  • Posts: 1825
  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2427 on: Fri, 29 May 2020, 14:51:51 »
Stumbled across some excitement about this new wireless bluetooth add-on for bluetooth keyboards lately. Wondering if this is of any use since apparently it can be a drop in replacement for a ProMicro which has been used on Model M/F boards before. 

https://www.reddit.com/r/mechmarket/comments/gst1n6/ic_nicenano_the_super_thin_wireless_bluetooth/

That sounds amazing. That's maybe more of a question for Hasu, though? I think xwhatsit is another beast. This is starting to make me think about having wireless external keyboard protocol converters as well. That would certainly be interesting as well, to say the least.

Offline Ellipse

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1245
  • Location: New York
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2428 on: Tue, 02 June 2020, 00:18:20 »
Attached are the 0.9.2 xwhatsit firmware files for alternative debounce 6 and 11.  These files include joc's alternative debounce updates from the 0.9.1 update and pandrew's recent work fixing the firmware layer bug.  I have recompiled these firmware files to show a keyboard as having version 0.9.2 in the xwhatsit GUI program.  Big thanks to DT forum member pandrew for fixing the firmware layer bug.

Also are some basic instructions that someone helped me put together on how to create a hex firmware file with all the patch files and how to run the capsense GUI on linux (with the usual disclaimers - instructions are for informational purposes only, should not be construed as technical advice or recommendations). 

Yesterday I confirmed that the xwhatsit GUI utility still runs on the latest Windows, Mac, and Linux. 
« Last Edit: Tue, 02 June 2020, 00:21:30 by Ellipse »

Offline Vizir

  • Posts: 293
  • Location: Tulsa, OK
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2429 on: Tue, 02 June 2020, 00:22:38 »
Attached are the 0.9.2 xwhatsit firmware files for alternative debounce 6 and 11.  These files include joc's alternative debounce updates from the 0.9.1 update and pandrew's recent work fixing the firmware layer bug.  I have recompiled these firmware files to show a keyboard as having version 0.9.2 in the xwhatsit GUI program.  Big thanks to DT forum member pandrew for fixing the firmware layer bug.

Also are some basic instructions that someone helped me put together on how to create a hex firmware file with all the patch files and how to run the capsense GUI on linux (with the usual disclaimers - instructions are for informational purposes only, should not be construed as technical advice or recommendations). 

Yesterday I confirmed that the xwhatsit GUI utility still runs on the latest Windows, Mac, and Linux.
Marking for future reference.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


Offline Ellipse

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1245
  • Location: New York
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2430 on: Tue, 02 June 2020, 14:09:04 »
Solenoid driver xwhatsit update:

As a note I just ordered a small run of xwhatsit solenoid drivers, and am looking into having the solenoids themselves custom made.  They can now be ordered on the project web site, and the US shipping cost is included on the project web site (contact me for international shipping quotes (will cost $15 to $20 most likely - may be best to ship a bunch in one package on each continent to save a lot on shipping).  More details here:

https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/xwhatsit-beam-spring-or-model-f-controller/

These should start shipping next month, but will be low priority compared to getting out keyboards.  Fortunately they are far easier to QC and ship than a keyboard.  If the dye sub keys arrive then, these will ship out more slowly.

Attached is a photo of an old xwhatsit solenoid driver in one of my beam spring keyboards.

244182-0

Offline Maledicted

  • Posts: 1825
  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2431 on: Tue, 02 June 2020, 14:50:50 »
That's awesome to hear. I'll have to get something like 3 sets if you get solenoids produced.

Random additional question:

I can't find any good pictures of the dark gray caps. I assumed they were in the product page for the extra sets, but I believe one of your answers in the Q&A section says that they're not pictured. (Thinking that they were made me write them off as too light before) You had a comparison picture earlier in this thread that showed black next to dark gray, and I could not tell the difference between the two, maybe partly because of the glare from the light on them. Are they sort of like on a Realforce board where they're so dark that they look black, but the legends are just slightly darker? If so, I'll probably have to get a set of those as well.

Offline Ellipse

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1245
  • Location: New York
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2432 on: Tue, 02 June 2020, 16:06:48 »
Yep they're hard to photograph.  Here's another photo that someone posted on reddit:  https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/aponqy/test_fit_some_new_keycaps_from_ellipse_on_my_f122/?st=k227fb64&sh=c79d131f

They are a 60% dark gray color.

Offline Maledicted

  • Posts: 1825
  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2433 on: Tue, 02 June 2020, 16:49:23 »
Yep they're hard to photograph.  Here's another photo that someone posted on reddit:  https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/aponqy/test_fit_some_new_keycaps_from_ellipse_on_my_f122/?st=k227fb64&sh=c79d131f

They are a 60% dark gray color.

That looks great, almost metallic in that picture. They had the same idea as me in mixing dark gray and Industrial SSK blue. I might use Unicomp's red caps though as well.

Offline Ellipse

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1245
  • Location: New York
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2434 on: Tue, 02 June 2020, 23:22:16 »
Just a few photos of two shipments of multiple keyboards in the various stages of being mailed out overseas (these went out last month to some people including GH/DT forum members!).

It's tricky to find the best box for the job!

244201-0
244203-1
244205-2

Offline Ellipse

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1245
  • Location: New York
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2435 on: Wed, 03 June 2020, 15:37:42 »
My new imgur post: 

Help! Lots of key output when I plug in my new keyboard!  + Emergency way to do a clean firmware load

https://imgur.com/a/kth6dHt

A few people asked me how to do an emergency clean firmware load.  For example if you store the threshold value too low and you have a layout already programmed, dozens of keys will send signals to your computer randomly and it could lock up your keyboard. 

I have provided step by step instructions with photos and screenshots on how to go through all the steps to get your xwhatsit powered keyboard up and running again. 

I'd definitely appreciate people taking a look at it and letting me know their feedback/corrections.

Offline Ellipse

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1245
  • Location: New York
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2436 on: Thu, 04 June 2020, 11:56:16 »
I can confirm that pandrew's utility works 100% to get an xwhatsit into bootloader mode without having to open up the keyboard.  It is so easy now!  Big thanks to pandrew and tentator for their work on this program.

I purposely set a too-low voltage threshold on a keyboard with a configured layout and clicked store to eeprom.  Then keyboard started outputting lots of keys.  I restarted the computer with the keyboard disconnected, then used pandrew's utility, followed the rest of the steps on my imgur instructional album, and it was successfully fixed!

Offline reavy

  • Posts: 20
  • Location: Phoenix
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2437 on: Fri, 05 June 2020, 12:03:56 »
Will the "dark gray printed" keycaps sold on modelfkeyboards.com be similar in color to the "gray" keycaps Unicomp sells with its boards that come in black cases? For example, this one: https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/UB40P4A

I'm curious to know if I can expect the dark gray from modelfkeyboards to match reasonably the way the modelfkeyboards pearl/pebble seems to match Unicomp's.

Offline Ellipse

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1245
  • Location: New York
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2438 on: Fri, 05 June 2020, 14:17:03 »
Here are some excellent quality photos sent to me of the Brand New Model F keys installed on an IBM Industrial SSK, including a comparison of the original two piece keys to the new one piece keys. 

The keys look great on the original IBM keyboard!

reavy the keys may be a different color.  Mine are 60% gray.

244413-0
244415-1
244417-2

Offline Maledicted

  • Posts: 1825
  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2439 on: Fri, 05 June 2020, 14:51:16 »
Beautiful. Your attention to detail never ceases to amaze. I have something like 3 separate printed sets ordered at this point ... for now.

Offline reavy

  • Posts: 20
  • Location: Phoenix
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2440 on: Fri, 05 June 2020, 15:03:38 »
Nice photos!

When calibrating voltage thresholds in the xwhatsit, do people typically have to do this when moving the keyboard from one computer to the next, or when changing power supplies or connecting computers to different mains electricity? Curious if the keyboard is really stable once configured or if people are finding that the keyboard needs to be recalibrated when the environment changes.

Offline Maledicted

  • Posts: 1825
  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2441 on: Fri, 05 June 2020, 15:19:22 »
Nice photos!

When calibrating voltage thresholds in the xwhatsit, do people typically have to do this when moving the keyboard from one computer to the next, or when changing power supplies or connecting computers to different mains electricity? Curious if the keyboard is really stable once configured or if people are finding that the keyboard needs to be recalibrated when the environment changes.

Honestly, I have a new production F77 that I purchased used, and an F107 that also has the same controller. I haven't had to touch a single setting on them at all myself, other than playing with mapping out of preference. I have used the F77 at home and at work. I suppose I probably haven't used it on more than 3 or 4 different computers though.

Offline hashbaz

  • Grand Ancient One
  • * Moderator Emeritus
  • Posts: 5057
  • Location: SF Bae Area
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2442 on: Fri, 05 June 2020, 16:20:19 »
Got my F77 in the mail the other day. Thanks Ellipse!

Now to get some temporary keycaps...

Offline reavy

  • Posts: 20
  • Location: Phoenix
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2443 on: Fri, 05 June 2020, 21:59:42 »
The problem that I’m having now is that most keys register correctly, but every so often I get two spaces from the space bar with each press. Happens about one out of ten times.

Offline Maledicted

  • Posts: 1825
  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2444 on: Fri, 05 June 2020, 22:40:28 »
The problem that I’m having now is that most keys register correctly, but every so often I get two spaces from the space bar with each press. Happens about one out of ten times.

Read back through the posts in this thread about debounce firmware settings. This is brought up enough that it almost makes me think that there should be a sticky thread dedicated to it here somewhere. Maybe there is, here or on Deskthority?

Offline fer.real

  • Posts: 123
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2445 on: Sat, 06 June 2020, 12:33:06 »
Please excuse my ignorance.  I thought that EC keyswitches don't need debounce time, because actuation isn't caused my two mechanical parts touching each other.  What causes the need for debounce?

Offline reavy

  • Posts: 20
  • Location: Phoenix
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2446 on: Sat, 06 June 2020, 13:47:15 »
Read back through the posts in this thread about debounce firmware settings. This is brought up enough that it almost makes me think that there should be a sticky thread dedicated to it here somewhere. Maybe there is, here or on Deskthority?

Thanks. The answer was staring me right in the face. I was able to pull the new firmware from Ellipse's site and load it easily. Just updating to the new version that came out in the last few days seems to have done the trick for me.

Offline reavy

  • Posts: 20
  • Location: Phoenix
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2447 on: Sat, 06 June 2020, 13:50:13 »
Please excuse my ignorance.  I thought that EC keyswitches don't need debounce time, because actuation isn't caused my two mechanical parts touching each other.  What causes the need for debounce?

The sensing still happens by interpreting an analog signal created by the capacitive interaction of switch parts in the board, and that signal needs to be interpreted by the controller. You can imagine that the spring itself probably introduces enough vibration to cause a pretty noisy signal close to the metal.

Offline Ellipse

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1245
  • Location: New York
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2448 on: Tue, 09 June 2020, 10:10:48 »
As a mini update I am focused on getting already-requested keyboards out and working with the factory to get out the second container shipment as soon as possible.

My QC work has been slowed down by having to open up many of keyboards to fix misplaced flippers and add a bit of solder to some leads on ribbon cables that were not soldered (I look for and fix 100% of these issues before sending out each keyboard of course). The QC from the factory definitely needs improvement to speed things along.

In order to minimize the time it takes to send out keyboards from the second container shipment (and future keyboard orders from the final round) I have asked the factory in recent weeks to load the 0.9.2 debounce 6 firmware and test that each row, column, and flipper are properly set up for all keyboards. I wrote up the testing procedure - if any rows or columns are not detected properly in xwhatsit they will touch up the solder and/or replace the controller. They will also be replacing the compact case screws with custom made T8 screws which should be a little easier to work with.  The board repairs were the biggest bottleneck in getting out more keyboards each day.

Offline reavy

  • Posts: 20
  • Location: Phoenix
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2449 on: Tue, 09 June 2020, 12:55:50 »
Thanks for all your hard work, Ellipse.

I looked around on GitHub hoping to find some evidence of xwhatsit/ibm-capsense controller development, but nothing obvious came up. It sounds like there are at least two GH/DT users who have been working on improvements to the firmware, though. It looks like xwhatsit was using Git to manage his code (based on the presence of .gitignore files in the code bundles). I am considering setting up a repository on GitHub where all this work can be consolidated and tracked for future users and improvements. I believe this should be appropriate since the code is GPLv3'ed. It looks like xwhatsit hasn't been active on GH since 2015, which is too bad for us and for him now that the new keyboards are being shipped out.

One obvious improvement would be to get auto calibration working cleanly with the new boards. Last I heard from anyone is that auto calibration doesn't work.

There has been talk about porting QMK onto the controller to replace the firmware that xwhatsit originally wrote, but I'm not super familiar with QMK and its magic.