[IC] Sagittarius (dates, proxies and US prices announced)

[voelzmo]

Absolutely great approach to the layout! This totally needs a right hand B, though

[krautcat]

Well, left part of keyboard is something horrible, right part is so-so, maybe even ok.

Hope we will see in the future such designs with columnar stagger.

[Gondolindrim]

Well, left part of keyboard is something horrible, right part is so-so, maybe even ok.

Hope we will see in the future such designs with columnar stagger.

You want a reply with that or...?

[FlitzDeelman]

Well, left part of keyboard is something horrible, right part is so-so, maybe even ok.

Hope we will see in the future such designs with columnar stagger.

I think he’s asking for constructive feedback, and he gives _a lot_ of background on why he does what he does. So if you use the word “horrible”, you should have a compelling justification. You don’t state your reasoning at all.

He’s also explained why he thinks straight columns that are staggered are not the best solution. Since you didn’t mention that, you probably didn’t bother to read it.

You’re not even riling people up, if that’s what you were aiming for. You just come across as shallow compared to the OP, and probably just aiming to troll.


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[synthtastic]

This looks great.

Unpopular opinion time: keep logos on the back / bottom / under a paper bag where no one will see them again. Cannon Keys doesn’t have a nice logo lol. Same goes for any brand that wants to impose itself on the front of a keyboard you have to look at every day.

This. I understand you're proud of your work. You make nice stuff. I want to buy your nice stuff. Don't doodle on your nice stuff...

I'm looking at you MD2 deskmats!

More on topic: I really dig this direction and have been anticipating the IC since I first read about the layout. I hope you can add a little bit more elegance and finesse this board into something truly amazing.

Nice, thanks for your inputs.

Well, I think you can understand why logos are important. That being said, I must say that this feedback is new to me -- I can't recall people giving this insight into other keyboards that had front-facing logos like the Think 65, the FoxLab Key 65, the TGR 910, or on many other keyboard threads about front facing logos. So maybe our execution was not the best. We'll look into it.

This is again purely opinion. I personally can’t think of any board I like that has badges with logos or branding or any wording on the front. Write a thesis statement on the back or bottom  of the keyboard for all I care.

The TGR logo is a crime against humanity, violating the front of those poor keyboards. Not a fan of badges like on Think (no disrespect towards oldcat and graystudio, they’re the GOATs), but they do add a bit to the design since they aren’t just a “brand”, and you can swap them out.

It’s your board, dude You put in the maths for it so do as you please. You won’t please everyone in the end. I do think it looks really damn cool so don’t let the criticism from others deter you. Some will like it, others won’t. Same for everything in life.

[jakereps]

Nice, thanks for your inputs.

Well, I think you can understand why logos are important. That being said, I must say that this feedback is new to me -- I can't recall people giving this insight into other keyboards that had front-facing logos like the Think 65, the FoxLab Key 65, the TGR 910, or on many other keyboard threads about front facing logos. So maybe our execution was not the best. We'll look into it.

Those specific comparisons aren't quite the same, since the logos on the Think65 and TGR 910 are logos of the board, not of the brand. I don't think many keyboards have their brand's logo on the front of the keyboard. Some of the TGR boards do, the Satisfaction 75 does, and a few others. The Think65 and Key 65 both offered options without the logo, as well. Even brands like Keycult and RAMA, with a lot of recognition and clout, put their logos out of direct line of sight. Also, let's not forget that the IC for the Key 65 had multiple pages dedicated to complaints about the logo, which led to the offering of two different logos, as well as an option without a logo entirely.

Fully agree with this comment. I almost edited mine to include the similar callouts. CannonKeys has associated itself as a store; a vendor. They run group buys for other people and sell cases on the side. I can’t go to TGR.com and get milky Gateron Yellows or a keyset. TGR is the “designer” while the CannonKeys logo is not a designer, it’s CannonKeys keyboard accessories storefront. It surprised me how clean the “cheaper” Brutal series is compared to the “high end” models that have the cannon stamped on the top like it’s a Razer keyboard. The Brutal series has a much cleaner aesthetic than the S75 and D65 without the stores logo in your face. If there was a “Upas” logo that was subtle and not associated with a store then I’d be all in but that’s not the _case_.

[duckadence]

This here is an interesting question.

We did play with the idea of a layout that had a huge bottom part which forced the user to basically push it far away from the body, it was one of the early prototypes. And indeed it relieves strain on the wrists, but we did find another problem. After some hours of typing we found that the shoulder muscles that are used to keep the arms up -- deltoid, infraspinatus and trapezius -- are in constant tension because you have to keep your arms "afloat". After some time you will get them tired and invariably lower your arms, which is a double trouble now because, due to the layout, you have to keep the arms away from your body but positioned on the table or chair at the same time, promoting a very bad spine curvature. Not only that, we also found when you keep the arms away from your body you dislocate your center of mass forwards, and depending on the way your chair holds your back, either your bottom back muscles or your abdominal are tensioned to keep you upright. I did feel sore pain in the region of latissimus dorsi and teres major muscles. All of this explains why specialists say that the best position to be in while typing is with your spine straight and  very well supported by a good chairs. Your elbows should rest in a ninety to 110 degree angle, and also supported by chair armrests. When we understood this, our layout concept shifted immensely towards forcing that particular position.

The row stagger is another very interesting thing. What the majority of people don't understant is that your fingers don't lay completely flat on the keyboard, hence why ortho doesn't work for everyone -- it's hard to keep one finger per column or row when the fingers are curved. The particular row curvature we adopted and the distances/angles are meant to perfectly follow finger movement and curvature in such a way that you can rest your wrist.

Finally, as for DVORAK/QWERTY, analizing the impact of different key layouts was the next step in the process, but due to the obvious reasons I couldn't take it further.

Hmm that's very interesting. After reading this, I was playing around with my chair and keyboard, trying out different setups. I tried typing with my elbows at a 90 - 110 degree angle with varying chair heights. I noticed that floating my hands at any chair height where my elbows weren't 1 or 2 inches above my desk put immediate strain on my forearms (forgot the muscles, but posterior ulnar side), probably because of the height of the keyboard. I came to the same conclusion that resting the elbows on the arm rests and keeping the elbows at that right angle makes for better typing ergonomics (and feels better too. I have muscley forearms and resting them on the table for extended periods of time causes some discomfort).

However, such a setup is kinda unusable because of several reasons. First, keeping the keyboard close to you kinda kills your desk space. I'm still a student, and having papers and textbooks in front of my keyboard is the norm. Of course, this wouldn't be applicable for people with jobs where a majority of the work is on the computer, but just a thought. Next, my chair and the table conflict (for the lack of a better term). My table has a support beam thingy at the edge, which disallows my chair from moving further up as my thighs (which are also unfortunately muscley) get trapped. And as a result, the armrests on my chair hit the table before they can be fully set down. This means I have to move my chair backwards, which further exaggerates the first problem.

So with that in mind, I tried to find a comfortable position that is also usable. I ended up my chair near the shortest length, my keyboard far away from me, my elbows at a 150ish degree angle, and my body leaning backward (though not slouching forward). Do you think this posture would solve the problem of the center of mass being too forward or will it eventually end up in more problems in the lumbar region?

[upas]

Nice, thanks for your inputs.

Well, I think you can understand why logos are important. That being said, I must say that this feedback is new to me -- I can't recall people giving this insight into other keyboards that had front-facing logos like the Think 65, the FoxLab Key 65, the TGR 910, or on many other keyboard threads about front facing logos. So maybe our execution was not the best. We'll look into it.

Those specific comparisons aren't quite the same, since the logos on the Think65 and TGR 910 are logos of the board, not of the brand. I don't think many keyboards have their brand's logo on the front of the keyboard. Some of the TGR boards do, the Satisfaction 75 does, and a few others. The Think65 and Key 65 both offered options without the logo, as well. Even brands like Keycult and RAMA, with a lot of recognition and clout, put their logos out of direct line of sight. Also, let's not forget that the IC for the Key 65 had multiple pages dedicated to complaints about the logo, which led to the offering of two different logos, as well as an option without a logo entirely.

Fully agree with this comment. I almost edited mine to include the similar callouts. CannonKeys has associated itself as a store; a vendor. They run group buys for other people and sell cases on the side. I can’t go to TGR.com and get milky Gateron Yellows or a keyset. TGR is the “designer” while the CannonKeys logo is not a designer, it’s CannonKeys keyboard accessories storefront. It surprised me how clean the “cheaper” Brutal series is compared to the “high end” models that have the cannon stamped on the top like it’s a Razer keyboard. The Brutal series has a much cleaner aesthetic than the S75 and D65 without the stores logo in your face. If there was a “Upas” logo that was subtle and not associated with a store then I’d be all in but that’s not the _case_.

I might not agree with your point of view, but thank you for stating your point of view in a civil manner! There seems to be high emotions in this thread and a lot of general negative sentiment without anything constructive, so I really do appreciate that.

I get where you're coming from but I like putting my personal designs under the CannonKeys brand as well. I created CannonKeys to help facilitate running my own designs, primarily, but part of the mission was also to enable others to get their designs out there. I wouldn't say I sell cases on the side - that is a pretty large and important part of what I do. And if that's the perception, well, that's something I need to work on!

For this design, I don't think I'm going to remove the logo, and if that's a dealbreaker, I fully understand!

There's been a lot of feedback about the front of the case, which I think rings true. I think the case looks good as-is, but given everyone's feedback, I think it could probably be better. I'm working on refinements.

[Gondolindrim]

This here is an interesting question.

We did play with the idea of a layout that had a huge bottom part which forced the user to basically push it far away from the body, it was one of the early prototypes. And indeed it relieves strain on the wrists, but we did find another problem. After some hours of typing we found that the shoulder muscles that are used to keep the arms up -- deltoid, infraspinatus and trapezius -- are in constant tension because you have to keep your arms "afloat". After some time you will get them tired and invariably lower your arms, which is a double trouble now because, due to the layout, you have to keep the arms away from your body but positioned on the table or chair at the same time, promoting a very bad spine curvature. Not only that, we also found when you keep the arms away from your body you dislocate your center of mass forwards, and depending on the way your chair holds your back, either your bottom back muscles or your abdominal are tensioned to keep you upright. I did feel sore pain in the region of latissimus dorsi and teres major muscles. All of this explains why specialists say that the best position to be in while typing is with your spine straight and  very well supported by a good chairs. Your elbows should rest in a ninety to 110 degree angle, and also supported by chair armrests. When we understood this, our layout concept shifted immensely towards forcing that particular position.

The row stagger is another very interesting thing. What the majority of people don't understant is that your fingers don't lay completely flat on the keyboard, hence why ortho doesn't work for everyone -- it's hard to keep one finger per column or row when the fingers are curved. The particular row curvature we adopted and the distances/angles are meant to perfectly follow finger movement and curvature in such a way that you can rest your wrist.

Finally, as for DVORAK/QWERTY, analizing the impact of different key layouts was the next step in the process, but due to the obvious reasons I couldn't take it further.

Hmm that's very interesting. After reading this, I was playing around with my chair and keyboard, trying out different setups. I tried typing with my elbows at a 90 - 110 degree angle with varying chair heights. I noticed that floating my hands at any chair height where my elbows weren't 1 or 2 inches above my desk put immediate strain on my forearms (forgot the muscles, but posterior ulnar side), probably because of the height of the keyboard. I came to the same conclusion that resting the elbows on the arm rests and keeping the elbows at that right angle makes for better typing ergonomics (and feels better too. I have muscley forearms and resting them on the table for extended periods of time causes some discomfort).

However, such a setup is kinda unusable because of several reasons. First, keeping the keyboard close to you kinda kills your desk space. I'm still a student, and having papers and textbooks in front of my keyboard is the norm. Of course, this wouldn't be applicable for people with jobs where a majority of the work is on the computer, but just a thought. Next, my chair and the table conflict (for the lack of a better term). My table has a support beam thingy at the edge, which disallows my chair from moving further up as my thighs (which are also unfortunately muscley) get trapped. And as a result, the armrests on my chair hit the table before they can be fully set down. This means I have to move my chair backwards, which further exaggerates the first problem.

So with that in mind, I tried to find a comfortable position that is also usable. I ended up my chair near the shortest length, my keyboard far away from me, my elbows at a 150ish degree angle, and my body leaning backward (though not slouching forward). Do you think this posture would solve the problem of the center of mass being too forward or will it eventually end up in more problems in the lumbar region?

The most important thing is that your back is straight and well supported so that you don't put strain on the lumbar. If you managed to do that, then the only problem you will have is a strain on the shoulders, but if your arms are at a comfortable place I don't see why that would be a problem. Next, you need to take care of wrists and finger positioning while you type. It's important that your wrist is the least movable possible, which I believe Sagittarius can help with.

Bear in mind I'm not a doctor, so the only sure fire way to know your positioning is the best is supported elbows at 90-100 degrees with straight back!

[duckadence]

The most important thing is that your back is straight and well supported so that you don't put strain on the lumbar. If you managed to do that, then the only problem you will have is a strain on the shoulders, but if your arms are at a comfortable place I don't see why that would be a problem. Next, you need to take care of wrists and finger positioning while you type. It's important that your wrist is the least movable possible, which I believe Sagittarius can help with.

Bear in mind I'm not a doctor, so the only sure fire way to know your positioning is the best is supported elbows at 90-100 degrees with straight backl

Okay, thanks for your input and help! I've always had my own speculations and done some jerryrigged expermients on keyboard and desk ergonomics. I do have some med background (was a nursing major before I switched to engineering) but I'll defer to your research (which honestly trumps the knowledge of general doctors) when it comes to what is the best ergonomically. I know that not all the discussion was exactly related to the keyboard, so thanks for taking time to answer everything! Best of luck!

[Sandy]

I really like the design and honestly sharp internal corners makes sense I don't think I like the rounded internal. The contrast is really good.

[stein3]

"Let's make this a reality", he said. This single phrase impacted me so much that I imbued it onto the PCB.

This is heartwarming.

Keep it up, guys.

[fabijolo]

I gotta say, I really like the looks of this. I might even go as far, as saying this, in a weird way, kinda looks better than the og Alice (or at least some of its clones).
Again, great job, especially on the case design 

[FlitzDeelman]

Upas, if this sells quickly, could you plan to do multiple production runs of this in-stock item?

There are suddenly many boards I’m highly interested in, and only one salary to pay.


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[syke]

layout looks intriguing but the corners don't flow. The four corners are way too rounded compared to the ones on the bottom of the case. I feel uneasy looking at them.

[vosechu]

Right hand looks really wonderful, but the left looks like standard horizontal stagger. It’s probably too far down the road already, but shifting the q row to the right and the b row to the left seems like it would be much more comfortable and natural.

That said, I’m super glad you’re iterating on the Alice and improving it dramatically. I’m 200% in, especially knowing that this benefits Toms family; that’s beautiful.

[Gondolindrim]

Right hand looks really wonderful, but the left looks like standard horizontal stagger. It’s probably too far down the road already, but shifting the q row to the right and the b row to the left seems like it would be much more comfortable and natural.

That said, I’m super glad you’re iterating on the Alice and improving it dramatically. I’m 200% in, especially knowing that this benefits Toms family; that’s beautiful.

You need to have in mind that our hands don't type the same. Doctors in the rehabilitation field call that assimmetrical behavior; it happens all over the human body (our body is not 100% simmetrical) and, particularly on the typing activity, that's primarily cause by the QWERTY layout. We too had problems figuring out why the algorithm would give us a layout that had different profiles for each hands, but when we videotaped ourselves typing we knew why: the right hand tends to be more mobile than the left one, which is why the coefficientes we used for the right hand were "softer" in the sense that the right cluster was a little more flexible.

For instance, shifting the bottommost row makes it really difficult for you to hit space and B or V while keeping wrists immobile, because if you do that, the majority of the row will be under your palm instead of under your phalanx or metatarsalia areas.

Also thank you for your words. We appreciate them!

[vosechu]

Outstanding, thank you for explaining! This is great!

[jakereps]

Right hand looks really wonderful, but the left looks like standard horizontal stagger. It’s probably too far down the road already, but shifting the q row to the right and the b row to the left seems like it would be much more comfortable and natural.

That said, I’m super glad you’re iterating on the Alice and improving it dramatically. I’m 200% in, especially knowing that this benefits Toms family; that’s beautiful.

You need to have in mind that our hands don't type the same. Doctors in the rehabilitation field call that assimmetrical behavior; it happens all over the human body (our body is not 100% simmetrical) and, particularly on the typing activity, that's primarily cause by the QWERTY layout. We too had problems figuring out why the algorithm would give us a layout that had different profiles for each hands, but when we videotaped ourselves typing we knew why: the right hand tends to be more mobile than the left one, which is why the coefficientes we used for the right hand were "softer" in the sense that the right cluster was a little more flexible.

For instance, shifting the bottommost row makes it really difficult for you to hit space and B or V while keeping wrists immobile, because if you do that, the majority of the row will be under your palm instead of under your phalanx or metatarsalia areas.

Also thank you for your words. We appreciate them!

God damn, I love everything about this IC. Hope to try this layout some day!

[Gondolindrim]

Is there an interest check form?

I love the HHKB-like FN key. The aesthetics of the case with the gasket addition are great as well. I would prefer it to be at a sharper angle like the Alice, but this is also a board designed for ergonomics and not aesthetics.

No interest check form as of yet. The reaction to this was huge so we though it was not needed, and since this thread has given us so much valuable feedback, it kind of defeated the purpose of the form.

As for aesthetics, I think that no one would get this if they didn't think it was a pretty keyboard. We are aiming at aesthetics too, of course -- this is a consumer good! -- but indeed the top priority here is the ergonomics.

[anaf]

Im sorry for your loss.

I am also looking forward to group buy when it does happen. Hoping that you run a discord in the near future to keep us updated.

[Gondolindrim]

Right hand looks really wonderful, but the left looks like standard horizontal stagger. It’s probably too far down the road already, but shifting the q row to the right and the b row to the left seems like it would be much more comfortable and natural.

That said, I’m super glad you’re iterating on the Alice and improving it dramatically. I’m 200% in, especially knowing that this benefits Toms family; that’s beautiful.

You need to have in mind that our hands don't type the same. Doctors in the rehabilitation field call that assimmetrical behavior; it happens all over the human body (our body is not 100% simmetrical) and, particularly on the typing activity, that's primarily cause by the QWERTY layout. We too had problems figuring out why the algorithm would give us a layout that had different profiles for each hands, but when we videotaped ourselves typing we knew why: the right hand tends to be more mobile than the left one, which is why the coefficientes we used for the right hand were "softer" in the sense that the right cluster was a little more flexible.

For instance, shifting the bottommost row makes it really difficult for you to hit space and B or V while keeping wrists immobile, because if you do that, the majority of the row will be under your palm instead of under your phalanx or metatarsalia areas.

Also thank you for your words. We appreciate them!

God damn, I love everything about this IC. Hope to try this layout some day!

No need to wait until "some day". You can try it out now!

Update 1: added A4 and US Letter layout test sheets so you guys can test the layout out!

[Gondolindrim]

Im sorry for your loss.

I am also looking forward to group buy when it does happen. Hoping that you run a discord in the near future to keep us updated.

There is a Sagittarius channel on the CannonKeys discord server: https://discord.gg/zadnctX

[Gondolindrim]

This looks great.

Unpopular opinion time: keep logos on the back / bottom / under a paper bag where no one will see them again. Cannon Keys doesn’t have a nice logo lol. Same goes for any brand that wants to impose itself on the front of a keyboard you have to look at every day.

This. I understand you're proud of your work. You make nice stuff. I want to buy your nice stuff. Don't doodle on your nice stuff...

I'm looking at you MD2 deskmats!

More on topic: I really dig this direction and have been anticipating the IC since I first read about the layout. I hope you can add a little bit more elegance and finesse this board into something truly amazing.

Nice, thanks for your inputs.

Well, I think you can understand why logos are important. That being said, I must say that this feedback is new to me -- I can't recall people giving this insight into other keyboards that had front-facing logos like the Think 65, the FoxLab Key 65, the Klippe, the TGR 910, or on many other keyboard threads about front facing logos. So maybe our execution was not the best.

My two cents’ worth, and I understand it’s my personal opinion (sorry for the weighty tome):

I like the logo on the Klippe T r4, which will be my first build.

I was put off a bit by the text on the Space65 Cybervoyager, but I, ahem, _think_ the Think6.5 r2 branding is OK enough. So much so that especially the lightbulb logo is a plus, not a minus.

I also liked the plain text of the Prophet from Cable Car Designs.

So I guess you could summarise my preferences as

- plain text engraved or

- a simple discreet logo

... works well, and may even add to the aesthetic rather than detract from it.

To be honest, the logo won’t put me off buying one of these if I have the money. Like I said, I’m interested in the ergo approach you took. If it feels like it fits my hands, anything like the Keyboardio or Kinesis Advantage does, then great.

If it improves on that (challenge accepted..?), then SCORE!

The Cannonkeys logo is probably not the most awesome ever, but it ain’t that bad. It won’t make me _not_ buy this great design. Unless you make it huge and garishly neon pink.

[EDIT:ignore!] Any chance you can publish your finger models and how you arrived at that design? Apologies, I haven’t yet checked your references in detail.

[ADDED:] I read through your description again and spotted something I missed earlier, that your measurements are closed and the subject of a paper currently being written. I hope we can one day see that!]


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The finger modelling we used is developed on the references! You can check those out

[are2dcrz]

Great design! But this might not be for me. Love the forward thinking for ergonomics

[Gondolindrim]

This is end game material for me. Hopefully the quantity will be enough for me to grab one.

Endittarius

[Zeelobby]

This is end game material for me. Hopefully the quantity will be enough for me to grab one.

Endittarius

Oh man. Gotta change the name now!

[gnho]

First, I want to say that I appreciate all the research goes into this board. I wish more keyboards are designed this way.

Second, as a HHKB layout user, I am a bit concerned that the Fn key is too far away from the arrows in the second layer. I wonder whether it's possible to reduce the size of the right shift to 2u.

Third, is there a reason people place home/end/page up/down on the left-hand side? Wouldn't right-hand side makes more sense consider our right hand is more mobile?

[alphabirth]

I'll be honest, I haven't read through the whole report yet (it's late here, and I'm already up later than I should be looking at keebs), but at first glance it's a very interesting idea!  I love to see innovation happening, and this is totally moving things in a new direction.  My feedback is that I am really a sucker for dedicated arrow keys, so I'd probably wait until somebody does a remix, just like what happened with Alice.  And also, that the asymmetry with the addition function keys on the left but not the right seems a little weird.  Good luck with IC, and keep up the awesome work!

[Gondolindrim]

I'll be honest, I haven't read through the whole report yet (it's late here, and I'm already up later than I should be looking at keebs), but at first glance it's a very interesting idea!  I love to see innovation happening, and this is totally moving things in a new direction.  My feedback is that I am really a sucker for dedicated arrow keys, so I'd probably wait until somebody does a remix, just like what happened with Alice.  And also, that the asymmetry with the addition function keys on the left but not the right seems a little weird.  Good luck with IC, and keep up the awesome work!

Nice! Thanks for the feedback!

I believe you should see the layout figure; Sagittarius has a dedicated arrows layout option!

EDIT: this one

[krautcat]

Well, left part of keyboard is something horrible, right part is so-so, maybe even ok.

Hope we will see in the future such designs with columnar stagger.

You want a reply with that or...?

Quite a bit. I get the layout of right part of keyboard, it's quite X-Bow-esque. I like that it adapts to hands not via staggering of columns but using the ray-like placing of columns. That's really cool!

Left part seems to me doomed because if I would touch type on it, I suppose my hand will make strange moves. Columns on right part and left part are non-symmetrical. So moving patterns of right and left hand will be different. And even angels between wrist and elbow. That is why I don't get Alice layout (except aesthetics) and that's why I don't get yours layout. I would call it Alice++ but for me this layout still worse than most of split keyboards with columnar stagger. Except Ergodox, of course.

Also I really don't like thumbcluster. It is so underloaded. Why only four keys? Why did you use long keys? Even on the peripheral modifiers you still use long keys, even "Fn" key near the right "Shift". I don't get it. In my opinion. modifiers on peripheral should not be splitted because of issues with reach via pinky finger. I know long keys are used with compatibility with base keycaps' sets in mind but in terms ergonomic I don't think it is the best soution. But okay, I find it attractive and aesthetic within non-splitted keyboards.

I really would like to rework thumbcluster. You mentioned about issues with reach the modifiers, and I totally agree with it. But give the user more keys on thumbcluster. User can adapt to new layout or just ignore surplus keys if he didn't find them useful. But adding more keys to the thumbcluster will definitely open new opportunities. For example, I have on within two layers of my Iris and Corne keyboards "Space", "Enter",  "Escape", "Left Shift", "Right Shift", "Ctrl" and "Alt" keycodes. And that's not only my setup, I see lots of such keymaps.

I see only two keys on each half as maximum but I don't think placement is really thumb-friendly. I would make three 1U keys on each side and placed them more closely to the center of the symmetry.
 
But tbh I really appreciate your efforts and really want to see this project on the GB stage. I am not among the target auditory of this board but your work and efforts shouldn't have gone without implementation in the hardware.

He’s also explained why he thinks straight columns that are staggered are not the best solution. Since you didn’t mention that, you probably didn’t bother to read it.

He didn't say anything about boards columnar staggering like Corne. He mentioned only ortholinear keyboards like Preonic and Planck. So please, don't accuse me. I agree with his statement regard ortholinear keyboards.

You’re not even riling people up, if that’s what you were aiming for. You just come across as shallow compared to the OP, and probably just aiming to troll.

I was ironic when had said about keyboards with columnar staggering, but anyway I was serious with my words brought up here.

Update.

I read that another person wondered why left part has almost classical row staggering. And then I saw reply where the difference was explained but I still think that difference between movement patters of each hand is not so huge that left part should have classical staggering and right part should tend to columnar or even ray staggering. I am heavily satisfied with symmetrical split keyboards with columnar stagger. I don't find drastically differences between my hands that it would required Sagittarius' approach within layout. Yes, I am here only with my experience without any statistical datum.

[bthezebra]

I love the in depth and nicely formatted introduction. The care taken in writing purposeful text, the amount of research done, the story surrounding this board, and interest in progressing ergonomics make this board a must for me.

I can't imagine how you must feel about Tom but I am sure they are happy that you are carrying on the work you started together.

Best.

[afluffybubble]

This looks awesome! Cant wait to see it!!~~

[Gondolindrim]

<quote snipped>

Glad you like it Please check this answer:

Right hand looks really wonderful, but the left looks like standard horizontal stagger. It’s probably too far down the road already, but shifting the q row to the right and the b row to the left seems like it would be much more comfortable and natural.

That said, I’m super glad you’re iterating on the Alice and improving it dramatically. I’m 200% in, especially knowing that this benefits Toms family; that’s beautiful.

You need to have in mind that our hands don't type the same. Doctors in the rehabilitation field call that assimmetrical behavior; it happens all over the human body (our body is not 100% simmetrical) and, particularly on the typing activity, that's primarily cause by the QWERTY layout. We too had problems figuring out why the algorithm would give us a layout that had different profiles for each hands, but when we videotaped ourselves typing we knew why: the right hand tends to be more mobile than the left one, which is why the coefficientes we used for the right hand were "softer" in the sense that the right cluster was a little more flexible.

For instance, shifting the bottommost row makes it really difficult for you to hit space and B or V while keeping wrists immobile, because if you do that, the majority of the row will be under your palm instead of under your phalanx or metatarsalia areas.

Also thank you for your words. We appreciate them!

[FlitzDeelman]

Apologies if this is answered elsewhere. Did you consider tenting? And will there be a wrist rest?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[kimchijody]

The mad lad Gondo done it again. I love it.

[alphabirth]

I'll be honest, I haven't read through the whole report yet (it's late here, and I'm already up later than I should be looking at keebs), but at first glance it's a very interesting idea!  I love to see innovation happening, and this is totally moving things in a new direction.  My feedback is that I am really a sucker for dedicated arrow keys, so I'd probably wait until somebody does a remix, just like what happened with Alice.  And also, that the asymmetry with the addition function keys on the left but not the right seems a little weird.  Good luck with IC, and keep up the awesome work!

Nice! Thanks for the feedback!

I believe you should see the layout figure; Sagittarius has a dedicated arrows layout option!

EDIT: this one

Show Image

Thanks for spoon-feeding me the info! 😅  I actually took time to read the full post today.  First thing--I'm truly sorry for the loss of Tom...  It's a great thing you're doing making this board a part of his legacy.  I didn't quite grok that the alternative layout option was showing that the two bottom rows could be swapped for arrow keys--and now I feel even sillier knowing that the arrows are part of the Sagittarius name! 

I was also wondering about the differences in the stagger between right and left, but I see you've answered that.  I suppose that this actually makes the board right-handed?  (I'm a righty, so that's fine for me, but I just wanted to check). 

It's also too bad that the last thing to be open-sourced will be the optimization algorithm, as that is the part that interests me the most! :D

[Gondolindrim]

Apologies if this is answered elsewhere. Did you consider tenting? And will there be a wrist rest?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Wrist rest is being considered. As for tenting, we did consider it at some point, but left the idea eventually because the modelling with tenting was too complicated.

[Gondolindrim]

I'll be honest, I haven't read through the whole report yet (it's late here, and I'm already up later than I should be looking at keebs), but at first glance it's a very interesting idea!  I love to see innovation happening, and this is totally moving things in a new direction.  My feedback is that I am really a sucker for dedicated arrow keys, so I'd probably wait until somebody does a remix, just like what happened with Alice.  And also, that the asymmetry with the addition function keys on the left but not the right seems a little weird.  Good luck with IC, and keep up the awesome work!

Nice! Thanks for the feedback!

I believe you should see the layout figure; Sagittarius has a dedicated arrows layout option!

EDIT: this one

Show Image

Thanks for spoon-feeding me the info!   I actually took time to read the full post today.  First thing--I'm truly sorry for the loss of Tom...  It's a great thing you're doing making this board a part of his legacy.  I didn't quite grok that the alternative layout option was showing that the two bottom rows could be swapped for arrow keys--and now I feel even sillier knowing that the arrows are part of the Sagittarius name! 

I was also wondering about the differences in the stagger between right and left, but I see you've answered that.  I suppose that this actually makes the board right-handed?  (I'm a righty, so that's fine for me, but I just wanted to check). 

It's also too bad that the last thing to be open-sourced will be the optimization algorithm, as that is the part that interests me the most! :D

This is an interesting question too: is Sagittarius left or right handed?

The optimization algorithm did take into accound a "left-handed or right-handed" parameter. We did take samples and measurements from a wide array of people, so we did have data from both orientations. The problem is that the majority of people (that's statistical, not personal opinion) are right-handed, so we did eventually ask the questions if our data was biased towards right-handed (which it clearly was). Since I was the data scientist I did some experimentation of rolling the algorithm only with left-handed data or even 50/50.

The results were very interesting. What it did show us is that the "left-handed oriented" layout was VERY harmful to right-handed people, that is, the right handed-oriented coordination tends to be more inflexible to orientation changes, whereas the "right-handed-biased" layout we had was not so bad to left-handed people.

Upon concluding this, we took is to Tom's advisor -- big rehabilitation surgeon and researcher -- and he told us that the result is completely understandable since everything in our world tends to be designed/aimed at righties because the big majority is right-handed, so the righties don't have to adapt. The lefties, on the other hand, are more tolerant towards right-handed appliances because they have to train their physiology -- muscles and muscular memory -- to use right-oriented appliances.

Our ultimate decision was to keep the layout with the whole of the data. Upon running the optimization results and the in locu testing -- we did het a dozen people to use the layout -- the left-handed that used the layout told us they were comfortable using the layout as well.

In any case, please print the layout test sheet and test it for yourself!

[FlitzDeelman]

Apologies if this is answered elsewhere. Did you consider tenting? And will there be a wrist rest?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Wrist rest is being considered. As for tenting, we did consider it at some point, but left the idea eventually because the modelling with tenting was too complicated.

Thanks.

[krautcat]

Seems my questions left unanswered so I honestly want to wish good luck with IC and hopefully smooth GB as well.

The initiative brought by Gondolindrim is very important for our community. The more ergonomic keyboards we have, the better consequences will be there and the more impact on future designs such experiments will have.

I am sorry I was too aggressive and unfriendly with my feedback.

[Gondolindrim]

Seems my questions left unanswered so I honestly want to wish good luck with IC and hopefully smooth GB as well.

The initiative brought by Gondolindrim is very important for our community. The more ergonomic keyboards we have, the better consequences will be there and the more impact on future designs such experiments will have.

I am sorry I was too aggressive and unfriendly with my feedback.

I hope you understand that your first response wasn't even a feedback. I don't know what you meant with it, but to me it resonated as a hurtful attempt to let me down somehow and responding to anything after it was simply an opening for myself to take part in my own abuse. If you were ironic or joking I have no idea as words do not express tone, but to whoever read it (you commend was so impactful that I did ask around what people though about your particular comment) they thought it was a kind of troll-ish diss to the keyboard.

But since you seem to care about what I think and your second response was insightful, let's do this.

First, about the layout being assymmetrical. Somewhere up I did a very in-depth response as to why that is, the TLDR meaning that when typing our hands simply don't move in the same way. The muscular memory of our hands is assymetrical. For more clarification please read above.

For the "overloaded" thumbcluster: the "right" way to do ergo is with curved keycaps. That's what the Microsoft ergo does, that's what the Logitech ergo does. You might agree with me that I can't conceive a layout with curved keycaps in this community because there are no projects to make such keycaps. Also as said in the OP, the true-erogonomics had to be adapted so that the layout was feasible with a base kit. The impact on the optimization is not big.

For people that like modding the layouts I added the two-key options to the thumbs. These sould let you play with layers. This is also done in most ergo splits.

And I will take some liberty to talk about this:

I read that another person wondered why left part has almost classical row staggering. And then I saw reply where the difference was explained but I still think that difference between movement patters of each hand is not so huge that left part should have classical staggering and right part should tend to columnar or even ray staggering. I am heavily satisfied with symmetrical split keyboards with columnar stagger. I don't find drastically differences between my hands that it would required Sagittarius' approach within layout. Yes, I am here only with my experience without any statistical datum.

Understand that, ultimately, the ideal ergonomics are adjusted individually. This is why recovery medicine is such an open-field open to so many speculations and myths. Let me give you a metaphor. On the one hand you have a post-doc MD that has studied 20+ years only so that he could give you a flu medicine or whatever. On the other, you have your grandma saying doctors don't know bollocks and proceeding to give you her lemon-honey-aloe vera tea which miraculously works better than the medicine you were prescribed.

In this spirit, if a symmetrical layout works for you I think it's totally legitimate for you to say that, but I also think you can't back up the information "Sagittarius doesn't work because it doesn't work for me". Like the doctor and his medicine, I have several hundred tests of recovery patients and a few dozen of them actually tried some iterations of the layout and gave us feedback on where their hands/arms/joints felt the most affected, so we could fine tune the results and optimization.

Among the subjects of the data we have were right-handed people, left-handed people, tall people, short people, muscular people, skinny people; as the project's data scientist, I have to give results based on the data which unvariably makes me work with statistics and stochastic processes so that all of these groups are covered in a statistical way with a certain degree of statistical certainty. What I can guarantee is that Sagittarius will bring more comfort and less stress on hands/arms/joints/muscles than your common ANSI stagger layout. As such I have tried to respond the feedbacks and questionings in this post with arguments and data back-up, describing phenomenons and results, but at the same time I can't guarantee if the layout will make an individual's hands so relaxed you will ditch all your keyboards for Sagittarius; hence why the layout test sheets.

I **** you not, we even ran "mini-placebo" tests to make sure this layout works -- I gave five friends random split layouts and told them this was our new layout in hopes that they'd just say it's indeed better. And they didn't. This layout passed that test even. Of course a true placebo tests need hundreds of patients and LOTS of data treatment, but you get the idea.

In the same metaphor, your granny's tea is like your symmetrical layout right now. It works for you, it has worked wonderfully so why the heck would you buy a several-hundred dollar keyboard that has this overly-engineered layout that needs a 2500+ word essay to be presented and described? I think that it's totally legitimate you say "well, it's not for me". And I'm okay with that. I'm very conscious Sagittarius is not meant to be the next Alice nor am I trying to be the next yutski.

In the end, Sagittarius is not about ergonomics, it's about bringing innovation to this community to keep it fresh and interesting, it's about testing how far we can go with a design and how much heart and soul we put into this. So I don't expect you to like Sagittarius, I expect you to respect it for what it is -- which according to this last comment you seem to do, so my deepest thanks for this.

[NathanAlphaMan]

Seems my questions left unanswered so I honestly want to wish good luck with IC and hopefully smooth GB as well.

The initiative brought by Gondolindrim is very important for our community. The more ergonomic keyboards we have, the better consequences will be there and the more impact on future designs such experiments will have.

I am sorry I was too aggressive and unfriendly with my feedback.

I hope you understand that your first response wasn't even a feedback. I don't know what you meant with it, but to me it resonated as a hurtful attempt to let me down somehow and responding to anything after it was simply an opening for myself to take part in my own abuse. If you were ironic or joking I have no idea as words do not express tone, but to whoever read it (you commend was so impactful that I did ask around what people though about your particular comment) they thought it was a kind of troll-ish diss to the keyboard.

But since you seem to care about what I think and your second response was insightful, let's do this.

First, about the layout being assymmetrical. Somewhere up I did a very in-depth response as to why that is, the TLDR meaning that when typing our hands simply don't move in the same way. The muscular memory of our hands is assymetrical. For more clarification please read above.

For the "overloaded" thumbcluster: the "right" way to do ergo is with curved keycaps. That's what the Microsoft ergo does, that's what the Logitech ergo does. You might agree with me that I can't conceive a layout with curved keycaps in this community because there are no projects to make such keycaps. Also as said in the OP, the true-erogonomics had to be adapted so that the layout was feasible with a base kit. The impact on the optimization is not big.

For people that like modding the layouts I added the two-key options to the thumbs. These sould let you play with layers. This is also done in most ergo splits.

And I will take some liberty to talk about this:

I read that another person wondered why left part has almost classical row staggering. And then I saw reply where the difference was explained but I still think that difference between movement patters of each hand is not so huge that left part should have classical staggering and right part should tend to columnar or even ray staggering. I am heavily satisfied with symmetrical split keyboards with columnar stagger. I don't find drastically differences between my hands that it would required Sagittarius' approach within layout. Yes, I am here only with my experience without any statistical datum.

Understand that, ultimately, the ideal ergonomics are adjusted individually. This is why recovery medicine is such an open-field open to so many speculations and myths. Let me give you a metaphor. On the one hand you have a post-doc MD that has studied 20+ years only so that he could give you a flu medicine or whatever. On the other, you have your grandma saying doctors don't know bollocks and proceeding to give you her lemon-honey-aloe vera tea which miraculously works better than the medicine you were prescribed.

In this spirit, if a symmetrical layout works for you I think it's totally legitimate for you to say that, but I also think you can't back up the information "Sagittarius doesn't work because it doesn't work for me". Like the doctor and his medicine, I have several hundred tests of recovery patients and a few dozen of them actually tried some iterations of the layout and gave us feedback on where their hands/arms/joints felt the most affected, so we could fine tune the results and optimization.


Among the subjects of the data we have were right-handed people, left-handed people, tall people, short people, muscular people, skinny people; as the project's data scientist, I have to give results based on the data which unvariably makes me work with statistics and stochastic processes so that all of these groups are covered in a statistical way with a certain degree of statistical certainty. What I can guarantee is that Sagittarius will bring more comfort and less stress on hands/arms/joints/muscles than your common ANSI stagger layout. As such I have tried to respond the feedbacks and questionings in this post with arguments and data back-up, describing phenomenons and results, but at the same time I can't guarantee if the layout will make an individual's hands so relaxed you will ditch all your keyboards for Sagittarius; hence why the layout test sheets.

I **** you not, we even ran "mini-placebo" tests to make sure this layout works -- I gave five frients a random split layout and told them this was our new layout in hopes that they'd just say it's indeed better. And they didn't. This layout passed that test even. Of course a true placebo tests need hundreds of patients and LOTS of data treatment, but you get the idea.

In the same metaphor, your granny's tea is like your symmetrical layout right now. It works for you, it has worked wonderfully so why the heck would you buy a several-hundred dollar keyboard that has this overly-engineered layout that needs a 2500+ word essay to be presented and described? I think that it's totally legitimate you say "well, it's not for me". And I'm okay with that. I'm very conscious Sagittarius is not meant to be the next Alice nor am I trying to be the next yutski.

In the end, Sagittarius is not about ergonomics, it's about bringing innovation to this community to keep it fresh and interesting, it's about testing how far we can go with a design and how much heart and soul we put into this. So I don't expect you to like Sagittarius, I expect you to respect it for what it is -- which according to this last comment you seem to do, so my deepest thanks for this.

Pack it up boys, we're done here. This is one of, if not the best-written post on this site. I cannot wait to get this board and try it for myself, huge congratulations to Gondo, Tom, and Upas for making this happen.

[FlitzDeelman]

Seems my questions left unanswered so I honestly want to wish good luck with IC and hopefully smooth GB as well.

The initiative brought by Gondolindrim is very important for our community. The more ergonomic keyboards we have, the better consequences will be there and the more impact on future designs such experiments will have.

I am sorry I was too aggressive and unfriendly with my feedback.

Hi mate, thanks for giving more detail. Your second post had much more detail, which makes it more constructive. You have put more thought into ergo than was apparent in your first post, probably more than I have, and you have some deeply held opinions, which are OK.

Skepticism for things like the asymmetric layout, I can understand that. I guess it could trigger my OCD like the column weirdness at the top of a 75% keyboard. Or like a normal row stagger layout does since I watched the video from the designer of the Dactyl.

But here I can tell myself there’s a good enough purpose for it. Gondolindrim’s argument makes enough sense that I want to try this.

Ever since I had inflammation in the tendons on top of my hands at the wrists, making coding hell for 3 weeks, I was interested in ergo. I have a Kinesis Advantage 2, and Ergodox and a Keyboardio Model 01. The Keyboardio is my current endgame for doing work, and somebody will one day have to pry it from my cold, dead hands.

This is a new avenue of enquiry.

The fact that its layout isn’t as unconventional as a Keyboardio makes me think it might be more versatile than just a daily driver for touch-typing - it might be more suitable for gaming. I’m too lazy to make gaming-centric layouts in Chrysalis or Via, my current solution is just  plonking my Corsair K63 on my desk if I want to play games.

And I like being able to stick standard caps sets on it, so that’s an excellent design compromise.

I fully agree this is important. I’d rather spend my money on this than the next flashy 65% board for gaming (which I am still drooling over).

I hope I can. (No pressure Upas, no pressure bank account.)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[hcb2003]

I love reading about the research that went in to this. Awesome job. I can't wait to hopefully get in on the group buy.

[TheMegaSean]

My condolences about Tom.

My only comments on the design:
- The right side also needs a B. I took a poll (myself included) with about 9-10 friends. All said the same 😅
- The bottom center section, I believe you could round it off just a tad. Currently, it looks like a slightly unused big space. I think adding the B and rounding those edges would be more visually pleasing.

[Gondolindrim]

My condolences about Tom.

My only comments on the design:
- The right side also needs a B. I took a poll (myself included) with about 9-10 friends. All said the same 😅
- The bottom center section, I believe you could round it off just a tad. Currently, it looks like a slightly unused big space. I think adding the B and rounding those edges would be more visually pleasing.

Please see this answer:

I would agree on right side B. I regularly use my right hand for B. I dont really know either right side B is the correct typing method or not. But for practicality at least for anyone who type similar to me, addition of B to the right side would be helpful.

I’d be all in if there were a right side B. 
I hope this project is a screaming success. 
So sorry to hear about Tom.  All the best to his family.

There are two problems with right side B.

The first one being of course that you need two B keys and end up having to take one of those extra keyset kits. The second one being that, ultimately, the idea between two angled alpha clusters is to force you touch type. Now this ramificates into two more issues: the first being that if you have two keys for the same character it can mess up your muscular memory, and the second being that the B key is meant to be hit with the left hand on touch typing. We can consider adding an extra B key, but that can interfere with the plans we have for that huge middle space between the alpha clusters (yes, we do have something special intended there).

[gnho]

I am really confused about this IC. Is there any feedback actually useful? I'm seeing a lot of suggestions and why these suggestions are bad. Maybe they're bad, who knows? But if this community, or the people who are interested in this board, are not able to provide useful suggestion, what's the point of all these?

[MeloDet]

I am really confused about this IC. Is there any feedback actually useful? I'm seeing a lot of suggestions and why these suggestions are bad. Maybe they're bad, who knows? But if this community, or the people who are interested in this board, are not able to provide useful suggestion, what's the point of all these?

I mean given the amount of work and experimentation etc. that went into the designing the layout, it is understandable that basically any suggested change to the layout is going to have to meet a certain threshold of merit before the suggestion is considered. Suggestions like "I would prefer a second B" are valid but not particularly useful when Gondo has already explained why a second B won't be included. Further they have already stated that the feedback regarding the case design is being taken into account. So its more a matter of what ones suggestions are. Do the suggestions attempt to change a fundamental part of the layout design? Then they probably won't result in a change. If they are concerned with something less central to the project (like the case design) then they are more likely to result in change.

[gnho]

I am really confused about this IC. Is there any feedback actually useful? I'm seeing a lot of suggestions and why these suggestions are bad. Maybe they're bad, who knows? But if this community, or the people who are interested in this board, are not able to provide useful suggestion, what's the point of all these?

I mean given the amount of work and experimentation etc. that went into the designing the layout, it is understandable that basically any suggested change to the layout is going to have to meet a certain threshold of merit before the suggestion is considered. Suggestions like "I would prefer a second B" are valid but not particularly useful when Gondo has already explained why a second B won't be included. Further they have already stated that the feedback regarding the case design is being taken into account. So its more a matter of what ones suggestions are. Do the suggestions attempt to change a fundamental part of the layout design? Then they probably won't result in a change. If they are concerned with something less central to the project (like the case design) then they are more likely to result in change.

Yeah and I'm totally fine with that. Maybe just from this point make clear that the layout is not negotiable. Other feedbacks are welcome.

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