Author Topic: [IC] Sagittarius, a gasket-mount optimized ergonomic layout custom keyboard  (Read 33601 times)

Gondolindrim and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline bigern302

  • Posts: 27
Iíd be all in if there were a right side B. 
I hope this project is a screaming success. 
So sorry to hear about Tom.  All the best to his family. 

Offline synthtastic

  • Posts: 81
This looks great.

Unpopular opinion time: keep logos on the back / bottom / under a paper bag where no one will see them again. Cannon Keys doesnít have a nice logo lol. Same goes for any brand that wants to impose itself on the front of a keyboard you have to look at every day.

Offline Acereconkeys

  • Posts: 498
  • Location: West Coast US of A
  • Happiness = life - expectations
First of all, I just want to say i'm sorry to hear about the loss of your friend.

Awesome work, I think there's great discussion going on already about the differing opinions on the case design. I had a quick question on the layout design. You mention in your writeup one of your goals was to solve the following problem:

Quote
Forearm muscle injuries due to the sometimes intense movement that the hands have to perform to cover the entire keyboard, specially on the modifier keys;

I was wondering if you could point to the element of your layout that addresses this issue? I'm looking at it and it seems the distance between key modifiers like backspace and enter are not spaced closer to the homerow than on a normal keyboard.

The main idea of the Alice angles and, ultimately, of the curved clusters of Sagittarius, is that due to the breadth of the shoulders the hands approach the keyboard at an angle. As such, when we try to type in a straight normal layout, the hand has to bend the wrist to make it work. This is the first way to solve the issue.

What the Alice didn't do is that since the 12 degree angle is constant, the distance between the left space and the backspace is not doable without you lifting your wrist to press it. In Sagittarius, you can keep your thumb on the spacebar while also being able to reach enter and space with the pinky.

Ah Okay i see your point. The wrist doesn't "lift" but it just rotates. That seems to be the distinction I was missing.
TMO50 | Jane V2 CE Incoming | Realforce 87u 55g | Aergo

Aergo design and build log: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=103681.msg2840918#msg2840918

Online myflowsocold

  • Posts: 33
  • Location: California
very interesting take to the ergo/alice layout! I will almost certainly pick one up if it's available on cannonkeys later this year :)
Red FE Nunu | Lyn Whale R2 | PC KBD8x | Satisfaction75 | WKL Polaris | Mira SE

Offline mysticworks

  • Posts: 29
    • Mystic Works Site!
Wow

Online Gondolindrim

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 396
  • Location: Gondolin
    • My GitHub
A pessimist will tell you the cup is half empty. An optimist will tell you the cup is half full. An engineer will tell you it's exactly twice the size it needs to be.

Offline senencito

  • Posts: 2
Hey there, That's a very interesting design.

Question about the rotary encoder buttons. Does that mean you can put a knob(like the s75 knob) in all four keys?

If so this would be an outstanding board for people who work a lot in Lightroom

Offline KevlarBear

  • Posts: 76
Definitely in, specially if you offer that navy color as an option! :thumb:

Offline gorbachev

  • Posts: 47
How lucky we are to have you in the mk community. Love the thought that went into making this.

I'm really looking forward to seeing this project get completed. My wallet curses you, however.

Offline elguey

  • Posts: 26
Hey there, That's a very interesting design.

Question about the rotary encoder buttons. Does that mean you can put a knob(like the s75 knob) in all four keys?

If so this would be an outstanding board for people who work a lot in Lightroom

the Sagittarius pcb picture in the first post says "four simultaneous rotary encoders support" so my guess is yes.

Offline MeloDet

  • Posts: 202
*I have no idea what I'm talking about lol please ignore
« Last Edit: Fri, 19 June 2020, 10:11:21 by MeloDet »

Offline Findecanor

  • Posts: 4589
  • Location: Koriko
I can see how you developed the design for the right-hand side and how it defined the opening angle, because I have had a similar design based on the same idea that I have worked on now and then over a number of years.
I just think it is sad that you are mostly copying Alice's layout for the left-hand side instead of borrowing more from the right hand side to make it more symmetric. You could also have had a few more keys on the bottom row. Personally I want right Alt right under the . (period) key.

The idea of having curved rows isn't that far-fetched, really (just look at Microsoft's or Logitech's ergo keyboards!) but a gradual hybrid between row-staggered and column-staggered hasn't been done before and it is not straightforward to compute it with constraints. It is also not straightforward to analyse and motivate the ergonomic merits of the layout ó definitely not enough for an academic paper.

I'm a little bit miffed now TBH, that because you announced your curved keyboard first: when my keyboard eventually gets released (if ever) no doubt some people are just going to see it as a "Sagittarius-derivative", when it really isn't. :-Ģ  (I had wanted that "wow"...  :-[ )
I started writing my layout program (also in Python, coincidentally) last summer, but I have got stuck on choosing the best thumb-keys. One thing that have irked me is that gap between a straight space bar and a curved bottom alphabetic row.
It's a bit ballsy to put a narrow sliver of case-top to fill that gap! I suppose you can do that if you CNC it from 7mm aluminium, where I had planned to laser-cut my case from thinner stock of acrylic or wood that would have been almost guaranteed to break if cut that narrowly.
Man must shape his tools lest they shape him
-- Arthur Miller

Offline mrpetrov

  • Posts: 597
Love it. Definitely in.

Offline Mekanist

  • Posts: 27
    • Archetype
Ive never really been into Alice style boards, but this is really interesting, curious to see how this developes!

Offline vi0till

  • Posts: 134
I would agree on right side B. I regularly use my right hand for B. I dont really know either right side B is the correct typing method or not. But for practicality at least for anyone who type similar to me, addition of B to the right side would be helpful.


Iíd be all in if there were a right side B. 
I hope this project is a screaming success. 
So sorry to hear about Tom.  All the best to his family.

Offline Aevyn

  • Posts: 58
Layout pretty cool. Pretty meh on the case. As others said, it's not very cohesive. It would make more sense if the corner fillet was smaller or if the bottom fillets were bigger. I'd personally make them smaller. I get that this was probably done to look less "alice" like but it ends up feeling kinda...off.

Also the space between the split bars and the rest of the cluster doesn't look good IMO. Probably will skip out on the case, but once the pcb is open sourced, will definitely look to make my own as I like this layout.
« Last Edit: Thu, 18 June 2020, 21:57:05 by Aevyn »

Online Gondolindrim

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 396
  • Location: Gondolin
    • My GitHub
I can see how you developed the design for the right-hand side and how it defined the opening angle, because I have had a similar design based on the same idea that I have worked on now and then over a number of years.
I just think it is sad that you are mostly copying Alice's layout for the left-hand side instead of borrowing more from the right hand side to make it more symmetric. You could also have had a few more keys on the bottom row. Personally I want right Alt right under the . (period) key.

The idea of having curved rows isn't that far-fetched, really (just look at Microsoft's or Logitech's ergo keyboards!) but a gradual hybrid between row-staggered and column-staggered hasn't been done before and it is not straightforward to compute it with constraints. It is also not straightforward to analyse and motivate the ergonomic merits of the layout ó definitely not enough for an academic paper.

I'm a little bit miffed now TBH, that because you announced your curved keyboard first: when my keyboard eventually gets released (if ever) no doubt some people are just going to see it as a "Sagittarius-derivative", when it really isn't. :-Ģ  (I had wanted that "wow"...  :-[ )
I started writing my layout program (also in Python, coincidentally) last summer, but I have got stuck on choosing the best thumb-keys. One thing that have irked me is that gap between a straight space bar and a curved bottom alphabetic row.
It's a bit ballsy to put a narrow sliver of case-top to fill that gap! I suppose you can do that if you CNC it from 7mm aluminium, where I had planned to laser-cut my case from thinner stock of acrylic or wood that would have been almost guaranteed to break if cut that narrowly.

I am really sorry about this and for what it's worth I didn't know you were developing an ergonomic layou and Sagittarius has been in the making since the Alice GB came up, that is, an year and a half ago. I don't intend to compete, nor will I want that conotation to this reply. Sagittarius is about innovation; it's innovative enough that it has its own thing going. If you innovate enough, you'll have yours. It's that simple.

I don't know what to answer to you. Is Sagittarius a bad keyboard, a good keyboard? Are the Microsoft or Logitech's ergo better? Is the Alice better? This is a very passionate project for me and before editing this reply I made this huge-ass I WORKED MY ASS OFF AND YOU SHOULD LIKE IT kind of reply, only to reckon that I sounded pityful. All I can say is, this is the best I could do. This keyboard was born from two childhood friends that studied for 15+ years to become the best in their fields, and thought they could use their education and skillset to passionately bring something so truly unique to this community we love so much that anyone could take a look into this keyboard and immediately recognize this is a one-of-a-kind board which every single detail was considered and polished. This is also about Upas, who not only had to pick the project in the middle, but had nothing to do with the situation and still did it with the best spirit I have ever seen in anyone in this community, and is taking the criticisms of his case design on the chin -- even though, as a vendor, he agreed to take reduced profits to help Tom. None of us are multi-billion dollar companies with teams of engineers working fulltime. You mention Microsoft, but the Microsoft Ergo was a breakthrough and by the time of deliver they had spent no less than several hundred thousand dollars into development -- money which we don't have.

I want to take this response to publicly and openly say that Upas is one of the finest people in the hobby and one of my closest friends, and I'm deeply and forever grateful that he's doing this not for me, but for a person he doesn't even know, for a situation he couldn't care less. When I asked him for help to run this, the man didn't even flinch. "Let's make this a reality", he said. This single phrase impacted me so much that I imbued it onto the PCB.

As for "academically worthy" or "enough", if you have any scientific comments I'll adopt them. The methods are there, the algorithms are there, the results are there. Feel free to criticize them, but to outright say that this is not academic enough is not only a bold statement and one you can't sustain as you haven't accompanied the years of research we spent, but also kind of hits me in a very personal way because this is what I do for a living; you are basically saying I'm a bad researcher.

The papers being written are two, one in the applied optimization field and another in the recovery medicine field. If the papers written are worthy of high-level journals or conferences is not up to you, but to the reviewers of the conferences and journals we submitted the papers to.
« Last Edit: Thu, 25 June 2020, 22:26:08 by Gondolindrim »
A pessimist will tell you the cup is half empty. An optimist will tell you the cup is half full. An engineer will tell you it's exactly twice the size it needs to be.

Offline beefwelldone

  • Posts: 17
  • Location: Bangkok, Thailand
I'm intrigued by the layout, but the case is kinda... off-putting? It feels like it doesn't have any consistent design language when you look at it from the top. Maybe it's mostly the corners that weird me out. Here's a diagram to help  explain:

Show Image


The blue corners are large circular corners, they're a very chill design. This seems consistent with the pretty large fillet.
The red and orange corners are very sudden, not very rounded at all, and pretty aggressive. There's not really any cohesion between the the edge corners and the bottom piece. It looks like someone took a rounded bar and then slapped a random piece on the bottom.

Compare to the Nunu, which I think is the best looking Alice variant keyboard:

Show Image


The curves and the lines all flow together, the board has cohesion.

I think the curved aesthetic fits well with the relaxed curvature of the layout, but that bottom part seems out of place.

I also think the bezels are much too large, although I'm sure plenty will disagree with me here. There's already enough dead space in the middle of the keyboard due to the layout, and the bezels just end up exaggerating all the empty space.

agree with this, as a fan of ergo layout and love the innovation, I would buy Sagitarius. Pcb and overall layout design is nice, but something isn't right with the case design for me. the bottom part seems nice alone but when put into full case it's strange, it will look better with wristrest.

Offline SuddenlyDonkey

  • Posts: 115
This looks great.

Unpopular opinion time: keep logos on the back / bottom / under a paper bag where no one will see them again. Cannon Keys doesnít have a nice logo lol. Same goes for any brand that wants to impose itself on the front of a keyboard you have to look at every day.

This. I understand you're proud of your work. You make nice stuff. I want to buy your nice stuff. Don't doodle on your nice stuff...

I'm looking at you MD2 deskmats!

More on topic: I really dig this direction and have been anticipating the IC since I first read about the layout. I hope you can add a little bit more elegance and finesse this board into something truly amazing.

Offline MeloDet

  • Posts: 202
Yeah I just wanna say I hope y'all don't get too caught up in the case criticisms Gondo and Upas. While there may be some minor things that I think could use refinement both of you have done some awesome work here and I am super excited for this. I know that emotions can run high when sharing a project (and particularly with one as personal as this one), so just know that we support y'all.

Offline appallingpaul

  • Posts: 3
A polycarb version of this wouldn't be such a bad idea...

Offline Acoipat

  • Posts: 8
  • Location: Canada
The backstory behind this is incredibly touching. It's obvious you're incredibly passionate about this project and have dumped endless hours of work into it, and the ergonomic focus is very interesting and unique.

I'm sorry for the loss of Tom but I'm glad you are continuing the project in his memory! I'll be following along closely and looking forward to the case and layout being refined even more.

I'm not sure if this has been addressed but I'm personally a big fan of a column of modifier keys on the right side of the layout in addition to the left. I find mods on the right much more convenient due to their proximity to the mouse hand (which is the right hand for most). Not sure if it's too late for such a big change, but thought I'd just bring it up.

Also, I know colours are probably a while away but +1 for PC case and plate

Offline kidviddy

  • Posts: 52
  • Location: California
    • 駄日記
This is a really interesting project.  Iím looking forward to following its progress!

One small layout request, which Iím not sure whether it would be easy or tricky to accommodate given you already have the 1.25Shift/UpArray alternative in place: I would really like to be able to swap the right shift and function key, so the 1U appears on the left and the larger shift key appears on the right.  As a JIS user, this would allow me to place the extra 1U key to the right of ?/. And I think Iím right in saying it would also enable ABNT layouts as well?

I realise that both JIS and ABNT are minority layouts, but if itís the sort of thing that could be added without too much difficulty it might be worth considering.  Given that this part of your layout is already horizontal, I donít think it will mess with the ergonomics too much.

EDIT: Also, I know the Alice does it this way as well, and itís always puzzled me there, too, but I think the 6 should go with the right half, next to the 7. I was always trained to hit the 6 with my right index finger, and that habit has only got stronger since I started using ortholinear keyboards. Is this a common feature of ergonomic layouts?
« Last Edit: Thu, 18 June 2020, 23:36:28 by kidviddy »

Offline fabijolo

  • Posts: 150
  • Location: Germany
  • I like expensive plastic.
Looking neat :thumb:

Offline platypusduck

  • Posts: 27
  • PeppyToad
I can see how you developed the design for the right-hand side and how it defined the opening angle, because I have had a similar design based on the same idea that I have worked on now and then over a number of years.
I just think it is sad that you are mostly copying Alice's layout for the left-hand side instead of borrowing more from the right hand side to make it more symmetric. You could also have had a few more keys on the bottom row. Personally I want right Alt right under the . (period) key.

The idea of having curved rows isn't that far-fetched, really (just look at Microsoft's or Logitech's ergo keyboards!) but a gradual hybrid between row-staggered and column-staggered hasn't been done before and it is not straightforward to compute it with constraints. It is also not straightforward to analyse and motivate the ergonomic merits of the layout — definitely not enough for an academic paper.

I'm a little bit miffed now TBH, that because you announced your curved keyboard first: when my keyboard eventually gets released (if ever) no doubt some people are just going to see it as a "Sagittarius-derivative", when it really isn't. :-Ģ  (I had wanted that "wow"...  :-[ )
I started writing my layout program (also in Python, coincidentally) last summer, but I have got stuck on choosing the best thumb-keys. One thing that have irked me is that gap between a straight space bar and a curved bottom alphabetic row.
It's a bit ballsy to put a narrow sliver of case-top to fill that gap! I suppose you can do that if you CNC it from 7mm aluminium, where I had planned to laser-cut my case from thinner stock of acrylic or wood that would have been almost guaranteed to break if cut that narrowly.

Damn dude, I don't think it's fair to crap on a passion project of three people because you were doing something similar as well. The side swipe on the academic paper isn't called for as well – as you may already know, you can't expect Gondo to put all the parts of a paper in his IC. I don't think the paper is not even finished – ideally not before we get to use this keyboard design.

I hope you'll muster enough confidence in your project to not care about people calling it as just another Sagittarius clone (when it really isn't).
« Last Edit: Fri, 19 June 2020, 01:14:15 by platypusduck »

Offline FunBox

  • Posts: 33
  • Location: US
    • Null
Will this be available in unlimited gb form? I would never forgive myself if I am not able to get one :)

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


Offline 2003987

  • Posts: 22
RIP Tom, will join this for sure.. what is the timeline we are looking at?

Offline duckadence

  • Posts: 16
Think it's really cool that a bunch of thought and research has gone into this layout. Can really feel your passion for the project and how much it means to you.

I just have a few questions about keyboard ergonomics and how you designed the layout.

So lots of people make a big deal about how traditional keyboards force you to bend your wrists (adduction? If I remember my anatomy classes). But I (and probably many others) have noticed that placing the keyboard a sufficient distance away from the body (12-13 inches for me) basically negates wrist movement and bending when typing the alphas. I also perfectly float my fingers, and I notice that my wrist are for the most part completely straight when typing. So how does this work with alice/alice-like layouts. Wouldn't your wrists bend the other way if you keep the keyboard far away enough? And in that vein, did you find in your research that keeping the keyboard closer or further had any impact on the shoulders/torso? What was the verdict?

Also, I noticed that you chose to keep the row stagger? Any reason for that other than ease of use/adaptability (which I do admit is a pretty good reason. Dvorak has treated me much better than Qwerty, but it was a pita to learn.) But seeing as how ortholinear, and even columnar staggered layouts, have a decent fanbase that sing it's praises, I'm wondering if based on your research those layouts give negligible benefits to ergonomics when compared to your layout, or even the standard alice layout.

Yeah, that's pretty much it. I'm generally curious about the research and conclusions you drew. I read a study on various forms of ergo keyboards, but that was pretty old and didn't take into account all the new stuff we have now.

Best of luck with the interest check! If you can get the aesthetics (and sound! Don't forget sound! The typing sound is important!) right, it might possibly be an alice killer with the improved layout.

Offline Surefoot

  • Posts: 269
I love the ergo design and the thought process that went into it, but the case shell itself needs a bit of design work too :) As mentioned by someone else, the large radius corners arent looking so good with along with the thick bezels and sharp angles on the bottom part.

Offline FunBox

  • Posts: 33
  • Location: US
    • Null
I think y'all are nuts. I love the way the case looks

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


Offline Datastream

  • Posts: 48
Looks weird. Why is left side staggered but right side is almost ortho?

Offline befbef

  • Posts: 146
  • Location: Germany
Looks weird. Why is left side staggered but right side is almost ortho?
Same question. What point in your "doctorate-level academy research" or "mathematical optimization" led to the assumption that the left hand has other ergonomic requirements than the right hand?

Offline SmilingPudding

  • Posts: 22
  • 60% is the best layout.
    • Instagram
This is end game material for me. Hopefully the quantity will be enough for me to grab one.

Offline Findecanor

  • Posts: 4589
  • Location: Koriko
I don't intend to compete, nor will I want that conotation to this reply. Sagittarius is about innovation; it's innovative enough that it has its own thing going. If you innovate enough, you'll have yours. It's that simple.
Nah. Mine is different enough that it would be its own thing. I was just venting my frustration... sorry.
I've kept my idea mostly private because I had wanted the big reveal of the curve, and now that moment won't come.

Feel free to criticize them, but to outright say that this is not academic enough is not only a bold statement and one you can't sustain as you haven't accompanied the years of research we spent, but also kind of hits me in a very personal way because this is what I do for a living; you are basically saying I'm a bad researcher.
No, I'm not. I'm sorry if my language was crude and easy to misunderstand.
I'm saying that people who do not have eyes for this like you and I do, they might not understand how complicated this is: they might see this as "just a Microsoft-clone".
I'm also saying that I know that writing a research paper can be an undertaking in itself, and I understand that there can be a lot of work and academic theory behind it. (I've been in academia too, and worked at a HMI research institute, so I'm familiar with the process.)
That said, your language is pretentious and aggressive, and that does rub me the wrong way.

On another forum, I have seen people with something to sell, after seeing a potential competitor intentionally misunderstanding that person and gone to attack, skewing that person's words and trying to make that person look bad. I sincerely hope that is not what you are trying to do. Let's end this now and make peace.

I'm here if you want to discuss, share insights, compare perspectives and algorithms, and brainstorm about changes. That is why my previous post was more than just a couple words.
I'm on this board because I'm a nerd. It is not just a board, it is a community.
« Last Edit: Fri, 19 June 2020, 06:09:42 by Findecanor »
Man must shape his tools lest they shape him
-- Arthur Miller

Offline FlitzDeelman

  • Posts: 71
I have the Keyboardio Model 01 (home)and a Kinesis Advantage 2 (work) as daily drivers, and Iíd welcome any different takes on ergo.

I just wonít have money for this as well as Gokís separate project for which youíve done the PCB as well!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Offline gecruz

  • Posts: 28
I'd like the corners to be a little less rounded, but anyways I think this could be first ergo. Great job!

Offline mbsurfer

  • Posts: 100
  • Location: South Carolina, USA
Extremely sorry to hear about Tom. It sounds like continuing your passion for this project and seeing it through would make him proud and be exactly what he would want. I personally am a fan of how the layout looks and will be keeping my eye on this.

Offline FZ

  • Posts: 8
This looks nice.

My suggestions are as follows:

1. Have you considered providing an arrow cluster option in place of the right-side alt and control? Shorter shift to the left of the up arrow and fn key to the right of it?
2. I'm also of the opinion that the rounded edges could be less rounded.

Really enjoying the Austin and the PCB for it. It sounds like similar effort has been placed into this. I look forward to it and wish you all the best.

Offline konstantin

  • Formerly constexpr
  • Posts: 1148
  • Location: Serbia
Absolutely interested. I loved your design streams, and chatting with you is always a pleasure. Also, the Sagittarius layout is definitely something special. Really happy to see this finally hit IC!

Online Gondolindrim

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 396
  • Location: Gondolin
    • My GitHub
Hey there, That's a very interesting design.

Question about the rotary encoder buttons. Does that mean you can put a knob(like the s75 knob) in all four keys?

If so this would be an outstanding board for people who work a lot in Lightroom

Hey there, That's a very interesting design.

Question about the rotary encoder buttons. Does that mean you can put a knob(like the s75 knob) in all four keys?

If so this would be an outstanding board for people who work a lot in Lightroom

the Sagittarius pcb picture in the first post says "four simultaneous rotary encoders support" so my guess is yes.

Indeed, you can use all four knobs at the same time, you can use one, or even none of them. Each knob can be used both as knob and switch.
A pessimist will tell you the cup is half empty. An optimist will tell you the cup is half full. An engineer will tell you it's exactly twice the size it needs to be.

Online Gondolindrim

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 396
  • Location: Gondolin
    • My GitHub
I would agree on right side B. I regularly use my right hand for B. I dont really know either right side B is the correct typing method or not. But for practicality at least for anyone who type similar to me, addition of B to the right side would be helpful.


I’d be all in if there were a right side B. 
I hope this project is a screaming success. 
So sorry to hear about Tom.  All the best to his family.

There are two problems with right side B.

The first one being of course that you need two B keys and end up having to take one of those extra keyset kits. The second one being that, ultimately, the idea between two angled alpha clusters is to force you touch type. Now this ramificates into two more issues: the first being that if you have two keys for the same character it can mess up your muscular memory, and the second being that the B key is meant to be hit with the left hand on touch typing. We can consider adding an extra B key, but that can interfere with the plans we have for that huge middle space between the alpha clusters (yes, we do have something special intended there).
« Last Edit: Fri, 19 June 2020, 13:34:43 by Gondolindrim »
A pessimist will tell you the cup is half empty. An optimist will tell you the cup is half full. An engineer will tell you it's exactly twice the size it needs to be.

Offline MeloDet

  • Posts: 202
This looks nice.

My suggestions are as follows:

1. Have you considered providing an arrow cluster option in place of the right-side alt and control? Shorter shift to the left of the up arrow and fn key to the right of it?
2. I'm also of the opinion that the rounded edges could be less rounded.

Really enjoying the Austin and the PCB for it. It sounds like similar effort has been placed into this. I look forward to it and wish you all the best.

Check the layout image in the main post, I think they've already got ya covered on the arrow keys.

Online Gondolindrim

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 396
  • Location: Gondolin
    • My GitHub
This looks great.

Unpopular opinion time: keep logos on the back / bottom / under a paper bag where no one will see them again. Cannon Keys doesn’t have a nice logo lol. Same goes for any brand that wants to impose itself on the front of a keyboard you have to look at every day.

This. I understand you're proud of your work. You make nice stuff. I want to buy your nice stuff. Don't doodle on your nice stuff...

I'm looking at you MD2 deskmats!

More on topic: I really dig this direction and have been anticipating the IC since I first read about the layout. I hope you can add a little bit more elegance and finesse this board into something truly amazing.

Nice, thanks for your inputs.

Well, I think you can understand why logos are important. That being said, I must say that this feedback is new to me -- I can't recall people giving this insight into other keyboards that had front-facing logos like the Think 65, the FoxLab Key 65, the TGR 910, or on many other keyboard threads about front facing logos. So maybe our execution was not the best. We'll look into it.
« Last Edit: Fri, 19 June 2020, 12:00:19 by Gondolindrim »
A pessimist will tell you the cup is half empty. An optimist will tell you the cup is half full. An engineer will tell you it's exactly twice the size it needs to be.

Offline mcRewind

  • Posts: 14
  • Location: Las Vegas, NV
Appreciate the amount of time and meaning behind everything in the IC. Can't wait to hear for more updates and to see the project come to fruition!

Offline JvMil

  • Posts: 16
Very interested in this one. Will definitely keep track of this project. Keep up the good work!

Offline FlitzDeelman

  • Posts: 71
[IC] Sagittarius, a gasket-mount optimized ergonomic layout custom keyboard
« Reply #95 on: Fri, 19 June 2020, 12:11:22 »
This looks great.

Unpopular opinion time: keep logos on the back / bottom / under a paper bag where no one will see them again. Cannon Keys doesnít have a nice logo lol. Same goes for any brand that wants to impose itself on the front of a keyboard you have to look at every day.

This. I understand you're proud of your work. You make nice stuff. I want to buy your nice stuff. Don't doodle on your nice stuff...

I'm looking at you MD2 deskmats!

More on topic: I really dig this direction and have been anticipating the IC since I first read about the layout. I hope you can add a little bit more elegance and finesse this board into something truly amazing.

Nice, thanks for your inputs.

Well, I think you can understand why logos are important. That being said, I must say that this feedback is new to me -- I can't recall people giving this insight into other keyboards that had front-facing logos like the Think 65, the FoxLab Key 65, the Klippe, the TGR 910, or on many other keyboard threads about front facing logos. So maybe our execution was not the best.
My two centsí worth, and I understand itís my personal opinion (sorry for the weighty tome):

I like the logo on the Klippe T r4, which will be my first build.

I was put off a bit by the text on the Space65 Cybervoyager, but I, ahem, _think_ the Think6.5 r2 branding is OK enough. So much so that especially the lightbulb logo is a plus, not a minus.

I also liked the plain text of the Prophet from Cable Car Designs.

So I guess you could summarise my preferences as

- plain text engraved or

- a simple discreet logo

... works well, and may even add to the aesthetic rather than detract from it.

To be honest, the logo wonít put me off buying one of these if I have the money. Like I said, Iím interested in the ergo approach you took. If it feels like it fits my hands, anything like the Keyboardio or Kinesis Advantage does, then great.

If it improves on that (challenge accepted..?), then SCORE!

The Cannonkeys logo is probably not the most awesome ever, but it ainít that bad. It wonít make me _not_ buy this great design. Unless you make it huge and garishly neon pink.

[EDIT:ignore!] Any chance you can publish your finger models and how you arrived at that design? Apologies, I havenít yet checked your references in detail.

[ADDED:] I read through your description again and spotted something I missed earlier, that your measurements are closed and the subject of a paper currently being written. I hope we can one day see that!]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: Fri, 19 June 2020, 12:23:39 by FlitzDeelman »

Online Gondolindrim

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 396
  • Location: Gondolin
    • My GitHub
Think it's really cool that a bunch of thought and research has gone into this layout. Can really feel your passion for the project and how much it means to you.

I just have a few questions about keyboard ergonomics and how you designed the layout.

So lots of people make a big deal about how traditional keyboards force you to bend your wrists (adduction? If I remember my anatomy classes). But I (and probably many others) have noticed that placing the keyboard a sufficient distance away from the body (12-13 inches for me) basically negates wrist movement and bending when typing the alphas. I also perfectly float my fingers, and I notice that my wrist are for the most part completely straight when typing. So how does this work with alice/alice-like layouts. Wouldn't your wrists bend the other way if you keep the keyboard far away enough? And in that vein, did you find in your research that keeping the keyboard closer or further had any impact on the shoulders/torso? What was the verdict?

Also, I noticed that you chose to keep the row stagger? Any reason for that other than ease of use/adaptability (which I do admit is a pretty good reason. Dvorak has treated me much better than Qwerty, but it was a pita to learn.) But seeing as how ortholinear, and even columnar staggered layouts, have a decent fanbase that sing it's praises, I'm wondering if based on your research those layouts give negligible benefits to ergonomics when compared to your layout, or even the standard alice layout.

Yeah, that's pretty much it. I'm generally curious about the research and conclusions you drew. I read a study on various forms of ergo keyboards, but that was pretty old and didn't take into account all the new stuff we have now.

Best of luck with the interest check! If you can get the aesthetics (and sound! Don't forget sound! The typing sound is important!) right, it might possibly be an alice killer with the improved layout.

This here is an interesting question.

We did play with the idea of a layout that had a huge bottom part which forced the user to basically push it far away from the body, it was one of the early prototypes. And indeed it relieves strain on the wrists, but we did find another problem. After some hours of typing we found that the shoulder muscles that are used to keep the arms up -- deltoid, infraspinatus and trapezius -- are in constant tension because you have to keep your arms "afloat". After some time you will get them tired and invariably lower your arms, which is a double trouble now because, due to the layout, you have to keep the arms away from your body but positioned on the table or chair at the same time, promoting a very bad spine curvature. Not only that, we also found when you keep the arms away from your body you dislocate your center of mass forwards, and depending on the way your chair holds your back, either your bottom back muscles or your abdominal are tensioned to keep you upright. I did feel sore pain in the region of latissimus dorsi and teres major muscles. All of this explains why specialists say that the best position to be in while typing is with your spine straight and  very well supported by a good chairs. Your elbows should rest in a ninety to 110 degree angle, and also supported by chair armrests. When we understood this, our layout concept shifted immensely towards forcing that particular position.

The row stagger is another very interesting thing. What the majority of people don't understant is that your fingers don't lay completely flat on the keyboard, hence why ortho doesn't work for everyone -- it's hard to keep one finger per column or row when the fingers are curved. The particular row curvature we adopted and the distances/angles are meant to perfectly follow finger movement and curvature in such a way that you can rest your wrist.

Finally, as for DVORAK/QWERTY, analizing the impact of different key layouts was the next step in the process, but due to the obvious reasons I couldn't take it further.
A pessimist will tell you the cup is half empty. An optimist will tell you the cup is half full. An engineer will tell you it's exactly twice the size it needs to be.

Offline jakereps

  • Posts: 23
  • Location: Minnesota
    • my site
In if the cannon gets removed from the top face.

Offline the_onlyhope

  • Posts: 3
Is there an interest check form?

I love the HHKB-like FN key. The aesthetics of the case with the gasket addition are great as well. I would prefer it to be at a sharper angle like the Alice, but this is also a board designed for ergonomics and not aesthetics.
« Last Edit: Fri, 19 June 2020, 12:57:58 by the_onlyhope »

Offline kidpid

  • Posts: 88
Nice, thanks for your inputs.

Well, I think you can understand why logos are important. That being said, I must say that this feedback is new to me -- I can't recall people giving this insight into other keyboards that had front-facing logos like the Think 65, the FoxLab Key 65, the TGR 910, or on many other keyboard threads about front facing logos. So maybe our execution was not the best. We'll look into it.

Those specific comparisons aren't quite the same, since the logos on the Think65 and TGR 910 are logos of the board, not of the brand. I don't think many keyboards have their brand's logo on the front of the keyboard. Some of the TGR boards do, the Satisfaction 75 does, and a few others. The Think65 and Key 65 both offered options without the logo, as well. Even brands like Keycult and RAMA, with a lot of recognition and clout, put their logos out of direct line of sight. Also, let's not forget that the IC for the Key 65 had multiple pages dedicated to complaints about the logo, which led to the offering of two different logos, as well as an option without a logo entirely.
« Last Edit: Fri, 19 June 2020, 13:15:52 by kidpid »