Author Topic: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO (Read 897781 times)

Soarer · « **Reply #350 on:** Mon, 12 March 2012, 23:14:27 »

Quote from: drteming;544056

Well, I worked up the courage to delve into Soarer's 0.997 firmware.

Hail to the Brave!

Thanks for posting up what you've done, and how. Sorry about the lack of documentation, one day I'll get round to putting some reference material together for the codes and default layouts etc. I'll probably be annoying and change some stuff around before then though - I certainly want to rename those FAKE_ codes - but I'll make it easy to update any config files.

Soarer · « **Reply #351 on:** Mon, 12 March 2012, 23:16:30 »

Quote from: wcass;544074

if you are serious about this, i'ld like to talk to you about a project i'm working on. some discussion is here:
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?28021-a-modern-Model-F

I'm serious, but it's possibly not quite what you're after - my plan is to replace just the CPU on the Model F (or beam spring) controller board, and drive their square silver capacitive sensing chip from the Teensy.

Parak · « **Reply #352 on:** Thu, 15 March 2012, 22:44:42 »

Quote from: Soarer;544119

I'm serious, but it's possibly not quite what you're after - my plan is to replace just the CPU on the Model F (or beam spring) controller board, and drive their square silver capacitive sensing chip from the Teensy.

I'm entirely too lazy to check this at the moment, but isn't the teensy++ and the main micro on model F the same DIP dimensions? That'd make for quite the convenient drop in replacement.

Soarer · « **Reply #353 on:** Thu, 15 March 2012, 23:29:45 »

Quote from: Parak;547334

I'm entirely too lazy to check this at the moment, but isn't the teensy++ and the main micro on model F the same DIP dimensions? That'd make for quite the convenient drop in replacement.

Yup, same size, but the ++ has GND and AREF in the middle of one side, which aligns with some signals that would be needed! (at least, on the particular controller board I'm looking at doing first that's the case).

So I was thinking of using the regular Teensy mounted so it matches up with as many needed signals as possible, and then linking the rest with (solid core) wire. It would only need a couple of these messy wires, and they need to go to space that isn't blocked by the Teensy.

The first step in this is to remove the CPU and replace it with a socket (so the original CPU could be replaced to revert the mod). The Teensy would have little pins soldered into it (the usual header pins are too large) for about 3/4 of it's pins, then the 2 or 3 wires added.

Many of the Model F controllers have some form of multiplexing, so they don't need lots of pins on the CPU - which is nice!

Parak · « **Reply #354 on:** Thu, 15 March 2012, 23:57:01 »

They would align in every one of the four possible orientations of a teensy++? Still, that's awesome work that you're doing

Soarer · « **Reply #355 on:** Fri, 16 March 2012, 07:57:41 »

Quote from: Parak;547433

They would align in every one of the four possible orientations of a teensy++? Still, that's awesome work that you're doing

Well, there's also that +5V and GND are on diagonally opposite corners of the CPU, vs opposite corners at one end of the Teensies. That means only two orientations are really worth thinking of - either lining up +5V or GND - and both put those other two pins somewhere in the Port 1 set of pins (P10 to P17).

Here's the CPU, with the 29 pins that might be used marked...

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 44416[/ATTACH]

It varies quite a lot between the various Fs which pins are actually used for scanning, on some it's not many at all! And of course all of them use some pins for the interface to the host, which can be ignored.

edit: BTW, the main reason for doing this is to be able to use keyboards that can't possibly work with a converter because they don't send break codes for most keys, like the beam spring and bizarro F 'boards. But there's no reason why it couldn't be used for XT, AT and 122-key F 'boards too.

Parak · « **Reply #356 on:** Fri, 16 March 2012, 10:18:19 »

Quote from: Soarer;547732

Well, there's also that +5V and GND are on diagonally opposite corners of the CPU, vs opposite corners at one end of the Teensies. That means only two orientations are really worth thinking of - either lining up +5V or GND - and both put those other two pins somewhere in the Port 1 set of pins (P10 to P17).

Hmm, I see. Does T0 have to be used for something? If not then using teensy++ with +5V oriented to Vcc, GND and C7 could be left without the machine pins, with just one wire going from GND to Vss. Regardless, I'd be able to deal with the problem in whichever way you decide on; I'm just excited about the possibility to be able to use it "natively" on my F 122 key at some point

Soarer · « **Reply #357 on:** Fri, 16 March 2012, 13:12:10 »

Quote from: Parak;547815

Does T0 have to be used for something?

Depends on the 'board - the XT, AT and DisplayWriter use it for signalling to the host, so we don't need to use it in those cases. The 3104 uses it as part of the scannning, so yes in that case. I think the 122-key is most similar to the AT (from memory).

Another idea for mounting it would be to match the good side of the ++ with the busy side of the CPU (pins 21 to 39), and hang the ++ off to that side (if there's room). Then use wires to reach over to the other side. Not quite as stable, but easier to work with.

wcass · « **Reply #358 on:** Mon, 19 March 2012, 00:05:55 »

thanks Soarer.

i used this in my IBM AT project here:
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:25919

and my TSSK project here:
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:29086

ed_avis · « **Reply #359 on:** Sun, 01 April 2012, 10:58:36 »

With a Dell M6300 (BIOS rev A14) and Windows XP x64 SP2, and the converter driving a Model F terminal keyboard, you have to plug in the converter when the machine has already booted. It does not work for hitting F2 to enter BIOS setup, for example. Background thread

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?29425

This is using the latest stable version of the converter code.

kishy · « **Reply #360 on:** Sun, 01 April 2012, 11:36:41 »

Quote from: ed_avis;563473

With a Dell M6300 (BIOS rev A14) and Windows XP x64 SP2, and the converter driving a Model F terminal keyboard, you have to plug in the converter when the machine has already booted. It does not work for hitting F2 to enter BIOS setup, for example. Background thread

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?29425

This is using the latest stable version of the converter code.

Yeah, I've had troubles with a Dell Inspiron 630m doing the same thing. Presuming BIOS defect.

ed_avis · « **Reply #361 on:** Sun, 01 April 2012, 15:19:15 »

Strangely, although the M6300 does not recognize the Soarer-adapted keyboard for hitting F2 to enter Setup, it does work fine once you're in Setup. But then once booted into Windows you have to disconnect and reconnect - which suggests it's not purely a BIOS issue? (I imagine Windows talks to USB keyboards directly rather than via the BIOS.)

The Ziotek PS/2-to-USB adaptor on the same system had a different problem, where it would work if booting from cold but would require unplug and replug if resuming from suspend.

Soarer · « **Reply #362 on:** Sun, 01 April 2012, 15:29:16 »

There must be something peculiar that these machines have in common. I mean, they work with a regular USB keyboard, right?

Baffles me, because I am sending a basic, boot-compatible report, at all times!

The PS/2 to USB adapter is interesting, because it too will be a composite device. Perhaps the BIOS deals badly with all composite devices in some way, and has only been tested with the most basic of keyboards? It doesn't seem likely, but...

When Windows boots, it should be completely resetting all of the USB devices. I am at a loss to imagine what the BIOS can be doing to prevent this. Same presumably applies to any other OS these days.

I'm hoping that if this problem becomes more common a pattern will emerge that makes clear what is going on. It would certainly be useful to test as many composite devices as possible, to help in that.

ed_avis · « **Reply #363 on:** Mon, 02 April 2012, 04:05:47 »

Soarer I see that you are in the same country as me. If you are near London and you want to borrow the laptop to investigate I could lend it for a week or two. In the meantime I will also test it with a blue cube.

Soarer · « **Reply #364 on:** Mon, 02 April 2012, 17:54:56 »

Quote from: ed_avis;564466

Soarer I see that you are in the same country as me. If you are near London and you want to borrow the laptop to investigate I could lend it for a week or two. In the meantime I will also test it with a blue cube.

Many thanks for the offer! For me, that wouldn't be feasible for a month or two though, so plenty of time to think of other things to try on it in the meantime.

TBH, I was hoping that kishy's machine was a one-off, so I haven't put any effort in to try and sort this problem out at all yet :-) That you have the same problem makes it a higher priority... once I've released v1.0 I'll probably knock up some test versions for you and/or kishy to try out, if we haven't spotted anything before that.

litster · « **Reply #365 on:** Mon, 02 April 2012, 19:26:12 »

Quote from: litster;540413

Another question. Could your converter work in this way?

Filco in PS/2 mode -> Soarer's Converter -> PC USB port == NKRO over USB?

Quote from: Soarer;543629

Yes.

Sweet! I am going to get a few parts to build this. I have Teensys at home ready to go.

Morning Song · « **Reply #366 on:** Sat, 07 April 2012, 17:44:59 »

Just a little report/question: I'm using one of the earliest teensy adapters, made by DFJ, and it seems mostly, but not all compatible--my un-jumpered 6011668 seems to be reporting this through hid_listen, with the 0.997 test:

Keyboard ID: AB83
Code set: 2 (extended)

wED rFE !!FEwED rFE !!FEwED rFE !!FE

Does this mean I'm out of luck with your firmware? (dfj's still works mostly, but has a couple pokeys that i hoped yours might fix.)

Soarer · « **Reply #367 on:** Sat, 07 April 2012, 18:30:03 »

Hey, that's an odd one! What's a 6011668? I'm guessing it's a 122-key terminal board that we'd expect to use code set 3...

In which case, I wonder why it's reporting its ID as AB83... and if we could change that, without any jumpers to swap around...

Or... there's an undocumented command that you could put in a config file, which would force it to use set 3... I haven't had anything like this to test it on yet though, so I can't guarantee it will work!!

Code: [Select]

force set3

Morning Song · « **Reply #368 on:** Sat, 07 April 2012, 19:04:12 »

Quote from: Soarer;570157

Hey, that's an odd one! What's a 6011668? I'm guessing it's a 122-key terminal board that we'd expect to use code set 3...

In which case, I wonder why it's reporting its ID as AB83... and if we could change that, without any jumpers to swap around...

Or... there's an undocumented command that you could put in a config file, which would force it to use set 3... I haven't had anything like this to test it on yet though, so I can't guarantee it will work!!

Code: [Select]
force set3

Er, whoops! It's a 6110668, not 6011668. (Same as, i believe, Sethstorm's).

Force Set3+slightly modded legacy.sc for sane mapping did the trick, though. Additionally, that did change the keyboard ID to 0000, according to hid_listen.

and now that i actually took a look with a flashlight, there are some jumpers on the pins. Whoops! (I donated the dipswitch block to Kishy, and i thought he hadn't put any jumpers on the pins)

Sorry for the derpiness on my part.

Soarer · « **Reply #369 on:** Sat, 07 April 2012, 19:14:28 »

Quote from: Morning Song;570182

Er, whoops! It's a 6110668, not 6011668. (Same as, i believe, Sethstorm's).

Force Set3+slightly modded legacy.sc for sane mapping did the trick, though. Additionally, that did change the keyboard ID to 0000, according to hid_listen.

Cool, 'force' works! Using it stops the converter querying the board at all, so it's no surprise that the ID is no longer reported correctly. (I should fix that. It hardly matters, but it's confusing).

Quote from: Morning Song;570182

and now that i actually took a look with a flashlight, there are some jumpers on the pins. Whoops! (I donated the dipswitch block to Kishy, and i thought he hadn't put any jumpers on the pins)

Sorry for the derpiness on my part.

Ahhh... so had you or kishy tried kishy's driver mods etc with that board before? IIRC that required the ID to be set to AB83, to fool Windows into thinking it was a normal 101-key 'board... fooled my converter too!

Morning Song · « **Reply #370 on:** Sat, 07 April 2012, 19:44:07 »

Exactly! Back in the Dark Times before you guys came out with these adapters, Kishy helped me with (read: Did all the real work because my cabling skills aren't worth crap) a cable mod, and i ended up trading dfj for one of his Teensy adapters several months later; his firmware didn't bother with supporting multiple keyboards, so it happily ignored the ID.

Incidentally, would it help at all for someone(i.e. me) to draw up a chart of the default mappings' symbolic names? I'm futzing with re-creating my wonky layout, and half put one together for my own reference. I could clean it up and toss it your way.

Soarer · « **Reply #371 on:** Sat, 07 April 2012, 20:51:13 »

Heh, I finally started to try and get some better documentation sorted out today! A diagram would be great! I should warn you that I've renamed all the FAKE codes (in v1.0, which is pretty much ready apart from the docs). They will have recognisable names - EXTRA_F1 to EXTRA_F10 for the Terminal board's left hand function keys, for example - all listed in the attached html. Actually, I had a go at a diagram a while back, based on one of John Elliot's SVGs, but it didn't work very well (long names vs. small boxes!) and never got finished :-(

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 47751[/ATTACH]

wcass · « **Reply #372 on:** Sat, 07 April 2012, 21:16:44 »

i was thinking i would like to help with an .hta GUI wrapper for your code. it would work in Windows only, but once programed the keyboard would work with any OS.

if you are not familiar with .hta - it is like classic .asp, but requires no server. easy to read code, nothing to compile, can use css.

Soarer · « **Reply #373 on:** Sat, 07 April 2012, 22:23:18 »

Quote from: wcass;570268

i was thinking i would like to help with an .hta GUI wrapper for your code. it would work in Windows only, but once programed the keyboard would work with any OS.

if you are not familiar with .hta - it is like classic .asp, but requires no server. easy to read code, nothing to compile, can use css.

The more the merrier! I've managed to get the command line tools compiling on all platforms, so there would be that fall-back available for when a Windows box isn't handy. I'm no fan of IE though; I haven't touched it for years! :-)

One idea I had for making a cross-platform GUI was to make a minimal web server (accepting connections from localhost only, of course) that contained the command line tools' code. It wouldn't need to support much, just a form post or equivalent. That end of it I could write fairly easily. What I'm not experienced with is the browser side of it - javascript, dynamic web pages, etc.

Morning Song · « **Reply #374 on:** Sat, 07 April 2012, 23:35:24 »

My thoughts on the matter is that if there's a nice simple one-file way of including a windows GUI, there's less of a need for cross-platforming. On Linux, the command line is a little more easily available and comfortable.

Incidentally, here's a couple INCLUDE-able .sc files--the only bits of my layout that might be of wider interest.

Standard US Dvorak keyboard layout:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/187059/dvorak.sc

Macintosh style layout for the Tenkey pad:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/187059/macnumpad.sc

Sun Type 6 mappings for L1-L10 (Not compatible with Windows):
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/187059/sunkeys.sc

alaricljs · « **Reply #375 on:** Sun, 08 April 2012, 08:08:46 »

A gui could probably be built across the command line tools with AutoHotKey.

Soarer · « **Reply #376 on:** Sun, 08 April 2012, 17:55:04 »

It partly depends on what you all think a GUI should do! I know it wouldn't start off all singing and dancing, but it would be nice to make a roadmap for how it could get there.

There is one potential feature that might not work nicely just by running other programs: it would be very nice for the GUI to be able to grab a key-press, or a combination, from the converter. That would want to be the 'raw' internal code(s), rather than what is sent to the host already (i.e. before remapping for a key, and before macro expansion for a combination).

So, what do you all think a GUI should do, and look like?

MorningSong - thanks very much for sharing your config includes!

SmallFry · « **Reply #377 on:** Sun, 08 April 2012, 18:34:03 »

The gui should include a verbose just for debugging stuff:) Other than that, and being red (just because I like red) I have no real suggestions! Good Luck Soarer!

Parak · « **Reply #378 on:** Mon, 09 April 2012, 01:09:39 »

I think the GUI could basically just be a front end to the tools. One would select from a list the physical layout that they are using, and remap keys by pressing on them physically or in the GUI, and reassigning their raw codes to something else via a dropdown or similar. Applying the changes would save it in the .sc format and upload it to the converter. Conversely, it could be also made to open the .sc files for editing via the GUI.

Soarer · « **Reply #379 on:** Mon, 09 April 2012, 07:35:07 »

Heh, a minimal front-end could just be a text editor with a 'send to keyboard' button.

As in, _just_ enough to remove the need to open a command prompt :-p

I started thinking about Java, and went looking to see what rawhid code there is around already. I found a project called waxbee, which has a Java config app that talks to a Teensy using JNI wrappers around the PJRC rawhid routines. I think it might only support Windows currently, but could easily be made cross-platform. And most people have Java installed, I guess.

fruktstund · « **Reply #380 on:** Mon, 16 April 2012, 16:04:41 »

I'm a bit tired right now, and this might therefore be somewhat a stupid question, but I'll ask it anyway: would it be possible to use this converter for a USB keyboard (without using a USB -> PS/2 adapter)? I think it could've been nice to have all your keyboards remapped the same way, with the same function layers and so on.

Thanks for a great converter anyway. I used it a couple of weeks ago for an old XT keyboard I found, and it worked really well!

Soarer · « **Reply #381 on:** Mon, 16 April 2012, 18:04:09 »

Glad you find it useful!

USB-to-USB might happen at some point in the future - there is suitable hardware out there (the Vinculum 2 etc. - the Teensies just can't do it).

But I'll be honest... although I'd like to see such an adapter exist, I don't have much use for it personally. Or rather, there are a few other projects I'd like to play wiith first :-)

litster · « **Reply #382 on:** Mon, 16 April 2012, 21:37:57 »

Quote from: litster;540413

Another question. Could your converter work in this way?

Filco in PS/2 mode -> Soarer's Converter -> PC USB port == NKRO over USB?

Quote from: Soarer;543629

Yes.

Quote from: litster;565097

Sweet! I am going to get a few parts to build this. I have Teensys at home ready to go.

Hi. I just built a Soarer converter. But I am running into some problem. Here is the setup:

Teensy 2.0
V0.997 Soarer firmware
mini 6-pin DIN
Windows 7 64-bit

I got it to work when I connected an old Cherry G80 or G81 keyboard and set to PC (instead of AT) on the DIP switch. All keys work. But if I plug in a regular IBM Model M or a Filco over PS/2 connector, I only get "R06" as I type in the HID_LISTEN debug app.

I will re-read the thread from the beginning to see if I missed anything. Any hint would be much appreciated. Thanks.

Edit: looks like I am having the same problem that 8_Inch_Floppy had, but there was no update on whether he fixed it or not.

kishy · « **Reply #383 on:** Tue, 17 April 2012, 06:09:16 »

Silly question, but are you unplugging the USB connector before changing keyboards?

Even on a converter, those interfaces are not supposed to be hotplugged.

Soarer · « **Reply #384 on:** Tue, 17 April 2012, 06:16:54 »

Aha, I hope it is just that!

It's the only thing I can think of that makes sense of the evidence.

litster · « **Reply #385 on:** Tue, 17 April 2012, 09:52:35 »

Hi. I tried cold plugging different keyboards. The result is the same. On the old Cherry keyboards with DIP switch, the converter should be able to detect and work with the keyboard set to either PC mode or AT mode, correct? Thanks.

Edit: I assume if I swapped wires and pins, it wouldn't work at all in either mode. Since it works with at least one mode, that means wiring is correct, right?

Soarer · « **Reply #386 on:** Tue, 17 April 2012, 10:18:36 »

So you're plugging the keyboard into the converter, and then the converter into the PC, right?

Otherwise, yeah, the wiring must be sound for the XT mode to work.

Model M is known to work without problems (normally), so that's distinctly odd.

It's not the same as 8_inch_floppy's problem, that's a very specific issue relating to certain keyboards.

If you have hid_listen open and then plug in the converter with the M attached, is anything printed up?

litster · « **Reply #387 on:** Tue, 17 April 2012, 11:23:12 »

Quote from: Soarer;576976

If you have hid_listen open and then plug in the converter with the M attached, is anything printed up?

Thank you! That was it! I always connected the Teensy to the PC first, and then plug in a keyboard. That is not the correct order. The correct order should always be disconnect Teensy from PC, plug in keyboard through PS/2 connector, then connect Teensy to PC. It is working now!

Thank you!

kishy · « **Reply #388 on:** Tue, 17 April 2012, 11:55:29 »

Good to hear - and yes, hotplugging XT, AT or PS/2 interfaces is not really the best thing for them.

Soarer · « **Reply #389 on:** Tue, 17 April 2012, 11:55:56 »

Quote from: litster;577034

It is working now!

Phew!

litster · « **Reply #390 on:** Tue, 17 April 2012, 12:48:26 »

Soarer, is it possible to detect a disconnect of the PS/2 connection, and reset the Teensy when PS/2 connector is plugged back in? That would stop noobs like me from screwing it up.

Soarer · « **Reply #391 on:** Tue, 17 April 2012, 13:14:13 »

Quote from: litster;577098

Soarer, is it possible to detect a disconnect of the PS/2 connection, and reset the Teensy when PS/2 connector is plugged back in? That would stop noobs like me from screwing it up.

Hmm. Probably, with some work, but I'm not sure I want to encourage it! (There is a risk of damaging the Teensy).

bhtooefr · « **Reply #392 on:** Wed, 18 April 2012, 05:41:43 »

What about detecting the unplug, and then blinking an error condition? Or even having the Teensy spew out "DO NOT HOTPLUG KEYBOARDS, UNPLUG THE TEENSY FIRST" into the connected PC?

litster · « **Reply #393 on:** Wed, 18 April 2012, 15:52:19 »

Hehe, I thought more people need to know how cool Soarer's converter is, so I posted a new thread on the keyboard forum.

Thanks Soarer for your awesome firmware!

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?30466-Filco-NKRO-over-USB-for-REALZ!&p=578220#post578220

Soarer · « **Reply #394 on:** Wed, 18 April 2012, 22:08:28 »

Thanks for that! Hope you enjoy it, and find a use for some of the other features as well!

Was bound to attract at least one OCN-style know-it-all though... let's find out just how little he knows about USB :-)

Soarer · « **Reply #395 on:** Wed, 18 April 2012, 22:39:42 »

Been working on the docs a bit - any comments and/or tips would be welcome!

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 48570[/ATTACH]

REVENGE · « **Reply #396 on:** Thu, 19 April 2012, 14:19:40 »

Quote from: Soarer;578542

Been working on the docs a bit - any comments and/or tips would be welcome!

(Attachment Link) 48570[/ATTACH]

Oh man, this looks great! I'll do a read through, let you know if I have any suggestions.

Gawkbasher · « **Reply #397 on:** Thu, 19 April 2012, 14:23:16 »

Very cool documentation. Thanks!

Soarer · « **Reply #398 on:** Thu, 19 April 2012, 14:56:53 »

It's pretty much the first time I've messed with CSS, so, um, don't look at that!

The FAQ section will get some content... once I've skimmed through all 400 posts in this thread again :-D

bhtooefr · « **Reply #399 on:** Thu, 19 April 2012, 20:44:16 »

FWIW, you can do the navbar stuff in CSS, too - no need to do it in JavaScript.

Typo on the firmware page:

"Teensy++ (no longer vailable)"

Looks quite nice, though.

News:

Author Topic: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO (Read 897781 times)