[IC] Alps Revival - Keycaps, PCBs and much more

[Matt3o]

I'm all over this unfortunately I do no take part to GB anymore

anyway I can help with manufacturing the plates if there's interest/need.

[jdcarpe]

I can redesign the switch plate for Alps...

[Matt3o]

I have some ALPS dxf if you need them.

[jdcarpe]

I have some ALPS dxf if you need them.

If you have one with the little stabilizer holes, that would be great. Otherwise, I have some drawings with Alps switch holes I can use. I can PM you my email address, if you don't have it.

[Matt3o]

yes it is with those funky little stab holes. PM me your email, just in case.

[tree]

I'm incredibly excited for this.

All we need to do to make this project work are the keycaps from Matias, and designing and manufacturing the switchplates! So, would it be expensive to make a small order of these custom switch plates? Something to note is that from the pictures czarek posted on deskthority, it looks as if the Matias switches might not be seated completely centred on his PCB, so any switch plate we make around his PCB will probably have to account for this (although the switch plate might render obsolete or solve this problem).

Let's make this happen! I'm not experienced in any of this stuff, but I'll try my best to help in any way I can, just let me know what I can do to speed this thing along~

[dante]

Alps is a lot like Linux: Too many variants!

[pasph]

I have some ALPS dxf if you need them.

let's make also a plate that don't require stabs, like your "bianca"

[jdcarpe]

Here is the drawing file for Layer 3 (switch plate) with Alps switch holes. As always, stabilizers are optional on the 2-unit thumb keys.

[jacobolus]

Note that you should cut that Alps plate out of (at the thickest) 1/16" acrylic. 15 gauge aluminum (or 16–17 gauge steel) would be better.

For 1/16" acrylic, I think the simple rectangle shape isn’t quite ideal. I still need to do some testing though. Also, the width of the line that the laser itself cuts makes a big difference in the exact shape that should be sent to the cutter.

[AKmalamute]

Note that you should cut that Alps plate out of (at the thickest) 1/16" acrylic. 15 gauge aluminum (or 16–17 gauge steel) would be better.

Y'know, this would have been a good addition to the GB I'm running -- too bad this was drawn up a little too late.

Maybe I'll just keep the file around, hmm? Come September I may include this with the standard fare. Granted, a solid block of stainless steel runs nigh $100 plus shipping -- ask me how I know (or peruse the 'post your ergodox thread).

Somebody should print that thing from thin acrylic as proof of concept, make sure the accidental-ALPS board likes where these holes would up. I'll probably print it to paper this weekend, cut out the holes with a razor and guestimate how I like it...But JDcarpe has always done excellent work so it's probably fine.

[MOZ]

I would recommend a small test first, since the Alps switches on the Ergodox don't fit in the exact same position as the Cherry switches.

[gotofbi]

I would love to see SP Alps keycaps.

[jdcarpe]

I would recommend a small test first, since the Alps switches on the Ergodox don't fit in the exact same position as the Cherry switches.

Hmmm, I didn't think of that. Maybe I need to rethink the centers of those holes.

[jacobolus]

Oh, you’re probably going to need a custom PCB or hand-wire if you want an Alps ergodox.

[dante]

what do you guys think of a poor/working man's kingsaver:

use a cm storm qfr case, and controller. Using a PCB built for it using stabilizers from a AT101?  It could be called the Dell Saver

[AKmalamute]

Hmmm, I didn't think of that. Maybe I need to rethink the centers of those holes.

Like I said somebody needs to do a proof-of-concept with a physical plate ... but there' a cheap way to do this.

Print (on 8-1/5x11 paper) a 1:1 copy of one side of the proposed ALPS .DXF ... take an Xacto knife and carefully cut out the switch holes. Find a sizable hunk of stiff cardboard, and spraypaint or otherwise mark the edges of those switchholes. Bring the knife back and cut out the painted area, then cut enough around it you can see what you're doing. The edge shape of the drawing isn't in question so no need to be particular about that.

get at least four ALPS compatible switches, and shove them into the corners of the cardboard 'plate' -- and see if you can make the PCB fit onto the switch. From there your eyes should tell you, I'd expect, if some of the keys were just never going to line up.

Jacobulus: maybe not ... PCB mount work fine, as it turns out. But keeping the switches from rotating even a hair, as you solder them ... might prove difficult.

[engicoder]

I would also be interested in some keycaps...I refurbed an old Zenith with complicated greens that needs some keycap love.

[jdcarpe]

I just tried a Matias switch in an ErgoDox PCB, and the pins fit into the top two of the mirrored holes in the PCB. It looks like the center of the switch is about 1mm higher in relation to where the center of an MX switch would be. And of course, the pins of the switch being just slightly offset, the switch definitely wants to rotate in the hole, if not held in place by something (the plate). I could probably get the Alps switch hole in the exact position it needs to be over the PCB, but I need to look at some switch dimensions. Anyone have a spec sheet for Alps switches that shows dimensions of the pins, etc.?

[jacobolus]

See the file here, FuhuaAlpsSwitchDatasheet.jpg
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=33298.0

Or directly embedded here, Forward Electronics / Fuhua Alps datasheet:


This datasheet shows the “SKBM” switch (so-called “simplified white Alps” or Fukka/Fuhua switch), but the dimensions are the same for Alps SKCL/SKCM and Matias switches as well.

Various other Alps clone switches have slightly different housings, but the same pin locations, keycap mount, and plate cutout.

[jdcarpe]

Thank you very much, jacobolus. That's exactly what I need.

[mian2222]

Just expressing interest. I have been thinking about an ALPs ergodox for a while.

[jacobolus]

Note, if you’re using 1/16" acrylic for the plate, you don't want to make a rectangle quite tight to the shape suggested here, or you’ll put a lot of stress on the little plastic clips (since that’s is a bit thicker than the typical ~1.5mm plate). I need to do some more tests w/ lasercut 1/16" acrylic to figure out the ideal size and tolerances.

If you do just tell your laser cutter to cut a 15.5 x 12.8 mm rectangle, you’ll end up with a slightly bigger hole (since the laser has some thickness), so that might actually end up working okay.

[jdcarpe]

Okay, so according to my calculations, the switch holes needed to be moved exactly 0.83mm toward the holes for the switch pins. I have done that, and attached is the revised drawing which should line up the switch holes exactly where they need to be in relation to the pin holes in the PCB. The other layers may have to be adjusted accordingly, to allow for keycap clearance.

[Findecanor]

I would recommend a small test first, since the Alps switches on the Ergodox don't fit in the exact same position as the Cherry switches.

An ErgoDox with Alps would also require a new case, because of keys being shifted compared to Cherry MX, at least above the plate.
The case below the plate doesn't have to be different, but it would look better if it was. Some walls would be thinner and others thicker to compensate to give the PCB a good fit.

BTW, I am exploring the design of another keyboard inspired by the ErgoDox, fully with the intention to support both Cherry MX and Alps the way that ErgoDox sort'a does. I am quite restricted in that for a key to support both Alps and MX I am unable to rotate it, so Cherry MX would get some layout options that Alps won't. Here is my work space in QCad right now (left hand):

[MOZ]

Interesting stuff.

[jacobolus]

I am quite restricted in that for a key to support both Alps and MX I am unable to rotate it, so Cherry MX would get some layout options that Alps won't.

I don’t understand. Can you elaborate a bit? You just mean that any Cherry keycap can go onto a switch in 4 directions, while Alps keycaps only fit 2 ways?

[tree]

An ErgoDox with Alps would also require a new case, because of keys being shifted compared to Cherry MX, at least above the plate.
The case below the plate doesn't have to be different, but it would look better if it was. Some walls would be thinner and others thicker to compensate to give the PCB a good fit.

Hmmm does anyone know the vertical length between the foremost switch pin on a Cherry switch and the centre of a Cherry switch stem? We might be able to get away with just using regular Ergodox cases if the difference isn't that big.

[jdcarpe]

An ErgoDox with Alps would also require a new case, because of keys being shifted compared to Cherry MX, at least above the plate.
The case below the plate doesn't have to be different, but it would look better if it was. Some walls would be thinner and others thicker to compensate to give the PCB a good fit.

Hmmm does anyone know the vertical length between the foremost switch pin on a Cherry switch and the centre of a Cherry switch stem? We might be able to get away with just using regular Ergodox cases if the difference isn't that big.

Not sure I follow you, but that dimension is 5.08mm, if I'm understanding you correctly.

[tree]

Not sure I follow you, but that dimension is 5.08mm, if I'm understanding you correctly.

Then there's not much difference between where an Alps and Cherry keycap would be on an Ergodox (just 0.68mm). I don't think we have to worry about whichever case we use not fitting. Just wanted to get this niggling detail out of my head -- I'm going to visit my uncle who owns a metalshop to get those plates cut out soon. I will probably start physical work on this project next month, I'm in the middle of exam season over here haha

[Findecanor]

I am quite restricted in that for a key to support both Alps and MX I am unable to rotate it, so Cherry MX would get some layout options that Alps won't.

I don’t understand. Can you elaborate a bit? You just mean that any Cherry keycap can go onto a switch in 4 directions, while Alps keycaps only fit 2 ways?

Not only that. When using the same pin holes for Cherry MX and Alps, the Alps switch would not be centred at the exact same place as a MX switch but shifted ~0.83 mm upwards. This means that each switch-position would need to be oriented upwards or have different pin holes for Cherry MX and Alps.

Kit keyboards for Cherry MX often have multiple layout options, such as providing a choice between stepped or centred Caps Lock or a choice between a 2u Backspace or two 1u keys. To make all the pins holes fit, some switch-positions would have to be mounted downwards or sideways... but then those pin holes can't be reused for Alps ... and there isn't always room for separate pin holes for Alps.

[jacobolus]

Not only that. When using the same pin holes for Cherry MX and Alps, the Alps switch would not be centred at the exact same place as a MX switch but shifted ~0.83 mm upwards. This means that each switch-position would need to be oriented upwards or have different pin holes for Cherry MX and Alps.

You can totally make a PCB which supports mounting either MX or Alps switches, centered in the same place.

Kit keyboards for Cherry MX often have multiple layout options, such as providing a choice between stepped or centred Caps Lock or a choice between a 2u Backspace or two 1u keys. To make all the pins holes fit, some switch-positions would have to be mounted downwards or sideways... but then those pin holes can't be reused for Alps ... and there isn't always room for separate pin holes for Alps.

You’ll have to get specific about the layout you think won’t work. Stepped or centered caps lock is a bit of a pain because among Alps keyboards there are versions with differently sized steps. But 2x 1u vs 2u backspace shouldn't be too hard.

[GSimon]

I'm interested in anything alps (keycaps, PCBs, plates)

[Defect]

As a recent Alps convert,
Gimme a programmable 60!

And case and plate and caps and please someone do Alps novelty caps...

[terrpn]

just give me some alps caps and i would be happy!

[mashby]

As a recent Alps convert,
Gimme a programmable 60!

And case and plate and caps and please someone do Alps novelty caps...

Duck0113's DuckMini v2 supports Alps. Elton is doing a sale on them at this link.

[nubbinator]

Duck0113's DuckMini v2 supports Alps. Elton is doing a sale on them at this link.

It's a bit pricey though.  I'd love a PCB so I could make my own case or use a Pure/Poker case. 

[AKmalamute]

Duck0113's DuckMini v2 supports Alps. Elton is doing a sale on them at this link.

It's a bit pricey though.  I'd love a PCB so I could make my own case or use a Pure/Poker case.

+1

There's Melvang's enabler GB, but that's noticeably more awkward than using a true PCB. There's Spirit's FaceW project but he wants to have keyswitches in his hand when he makes that portion of his overarching GB project go live...Pretty sure the GH60 will be over and done with before that happens.

Hey, so ... after Rev. C of the GH60 KiCad files are released ... who here is skilled enough to swap the MX pins for ALPS pin? We could have a Rev.D just for ALPS 60% -- wouldn't that be awesome? I'm having a plate made in a day or two so I'll totally be ready!

[gotofbi]

I really wanna buy alps keycaps!!!!

[bcredbottle]

bamp

[rsadek]

I'd love some alps caps!

Could we interest Gon in alps setups? People love his stuff...and you get all the programmability etc.
might increase interest in Alps in general.

-R

[Heliosphere]

In too. Need something to put on my orange Alps. I like the blue-green colorway as well.

[bueller]

I don't think this is actually running anymore guys.

[rsadek]

I don't think this is actually running anymore guys.

I hoped that

bamp

Meant it's still going?

[FrostyToast]

Guys... This is dead.
Why did this thing get bumped?
We already have the Infinity mods thread.
Go post in there or make your own thread.

[jdcarpe]

FYI, there are some Alps projects "in the pipe." Be patient, and good things will come.

[bcredbottle]

FYI, there are some Alps projects "in the pipe." Be patient, and good things will come.

Such as?

[MOZ]

Yeah, sorry, this isn't happening, I'm way too busy with real life to work on this anymore, also I have moved since this thread was created and lack the the infra to work on this anymore.

There are some other great projects along similar lines, please have a look there, I think JD's been working on something for a while, so look out for that, I;m sure it will be excellent like all his other projects.

Cheers!