[GB] Modern Selectric

[skullydazed]

Modern Selectric is up over at PMK! You can also see the previous interest check here at geek hack.

Introduced in 1961, the IBM Selectric went on to eventually capture 75% of the typewriter market. It introduced what we think of as the modern keyboard layout, moving several keys around to accommodate the Selectric’s design. The Selectric has been called the Grandfather of the Model M.



Putting the Modern into Selectric

Starting in the 1990′s, but rapidly accelerating in the early 2000′s, the world is shifting from language specific text identifiers to icons that are language agnostic. This keyset combines this trend with the iconic design of the Selectric, to imagine what the Selectric’s keyboard might look if IBM had continued manufacturing it into the 90’s and beyond.

Here's an example of what it might look like on a full sized keyboard:



And here's another example on the fc660m:

[unoab]

With the PMK system already having one foot out the door it probably doesn't matter anymore, but it seems like some buys need to properly evaluate starting prices and tip quantities at the beginning of a buy, this one is not the only one I have seen that has appeared to have some issues.

The starting prices on this buy, like the SA escape key buy that is still up may be unnecessarily high, and I would be afraid that unless people suck it up for the first 25 sets on some options that the initial price may bar many people from entering.  I would hate to have people pass it over since it is too expensive, when just having a handful of people buy in puts it in very reasonable levels.  Like the mod packs (blue TKL is this example) which drop from $115 -> $81 -> $56 at 15, 25, and 50 sets respectively and then level out to more reasonable price drops from there, where the '50' price bracket is a place where I assume many people would buy it initially.  Ideally I think people would be less inhibited to buy in at a high MOQ with a low price than a high initial price with a low MOQ with the prospect of future discounts (the wallet speaks louder than future promises).  Though I know for all things it is also a balance of low MOQ to tip some kits so that people can get what they need for their esoteric boards, vs low prices/high MOQ to entice people in, but I think for the common sets that are almost a guarantee, they should be adjusted accordingly (higher MOQ but lower prices), especially where there are so many custom legends to distribute the costs better.

Another thing to take into account would be to see that the price of 60% and TKL sets are about the same ($2-$8 difference from what I can tell depending on price bracket), and that there is only about 9 keys extra in the 60% not in the TKL kit.  So the question would be, could you hit lower price brackets and leverage volume if you lumped them together instead of splitting them into separate sets?  For example, if people bought 50 of each, so right now that would be brackets of $54 and $56 on the blue 60% and TKL sets, but if the sets were lumped together and cost maybe, $6 to add the additional 9 caps to the TKL set then it would be 100 people at the TKL price for 100 sets ($44) plus the cost of the additional caps ($6), so then it would be $50 for all the buyers, and each group is getting more than they would have bought with the similar investment if they were split and still saving a few bucks.  Yes, people would be getting additional keys they don't need, and paying for them, which they seem to love to complain about, but paying for them at $1 a key is still overall cheaper than getting every key you want but for $1.50 a key.  This may go into one of those cases of giving people what they need instead of what they want.  Unfortunately the pricing brackets are something that is never revealed in the interest check phase so it is not something that an organizer can go through with people and see where levels should be set, or determine some strategies for grouping keys and making it so that prices and sets are structured for maximum sales and savings.

Hopefully people want the set enough to buy over the hump of the high initial prices as I really wanted one of the TKL sets as the new legends look good and can mix well with other sculptured SA sets, but if not I don't think I will be going in before the 50 mark as I can get other sets for cheaper that are more complete (like SA retro at $80 for a full TKL set that also includes the tsangen set).  Hopefully the interest check votes turn into purchases early on, and I will be watching at the end and will contribute to hitting 50 if things are close.


TLDR - Like the set, but why oh why didn't you start MOQ at 50 for the standard sets with all the custom legends?

[skullydazed]

You deserve an answer that isn't dashed off during my lunch break- and you'll get one. I just need time to read through your post properly.

One thing to keep in mind here is that PMK's system is all guesses stacked on guesses stacked on guesses. How many of the 450 votes were drive-by's? How many are just people who like the set but aren't actually going to pay what custom legends on SA cost? Honestly, the biggest problem I run into is the lack of a commit to buy option, it means I have to balance people getting "something" with advertising a low enough price that more people will buy.

I settled on giving people more flexibility knowing it meant I'd have to encourage a lot of of buying. But just look at this set, don't you want a nice professional blue and black set you can take to the office?

[unoab]

You deserve an answer that isn't dashed off during my lunch break- and you'll get one. I just need time to read through your post properly.

One thing to keep in mind here is that PMK's system is all guesses stacked on guesses stacked on guesses. How many of the 450 votes were drive-by's? How many are just people who like the set but aren't actually going to pay what custom legends on SA cost? Honestly, the biggest problem I run into is the lack of a commit to buy option, it means I have to balance people getting "something" with advertising a low enough price that more people will buy.

I settled on giving people more flexibility knowing it meant I'd have to encourage a lot of of buying. But just look at this set, don't you want a nice professional blue and black set you can take to the office?

No prob, mine was pieced together this morning at work when I got time.

And very true, there is no real way to know how interest would turn out, but for custom legends look at the outcome of the symbiosis buy, there were quite a few new legends in that set and it worked out quite well (and I believe it started at a MOQ of around 50, but at least was $86 I think at the time).  Looking at some of the more simple/classic SA sets that have came out, like the Round4SPH or round 5, or hacked by geeks that seemed to have a more classic look, based on their sales, I would say over 100 sets should be an easy number to achieve if the prices are in line with the others.  Also, the relative obscurity of fully sculptured SA sets in the marketplace at the moment could play into a desirability of the set.  Round 5 has not shipped yet, Round 4SPH is hard to find for sale.  I have not spent enough time in the sales threads to see if many hacked orders have changed hands, but it seems like people want fully sculptured SA and only have two outlets now for their row 1-2-3-4 desires currently (retro SA and this buy, round 5a and its timing for order fulfillment doesn't quite classify as 'now').

I also agree they should have a commit to buy option, though I think they would need less price brackets, as the more brackets the more spread out the commits are, so everyone might just buy into 200 sets and then nothing tips (well based on most PMK SA profile buys that seemed to end around 100 sets or so, pulse would have been the only one to break that mark).  So the upper buy in should probably be 100 and then have it that as more sales go they drop the price as brackets are passed.  That way there is a reasonable discount to shoot for but no penalty for setting it lower than what could be achieved in the market.  As you can tell I have thought about this a bit as I have looked at how some buys have been ran, either on PMK, massdrop, or the old school google form way and tried to think of how the process could be improved.

And yes, I do want this set, I technically have some round 5 leftover black alpha keys coming my way sometime later this year, and getting the black modifiers for them is exactly what I was hoping for in this set, well and maybe the blue too, and some other things as I have some red keys from round 5 coming too, so a nice mix and match is in order.

[skullydazed]

With the PMK system already having one foot out the door it probably doesn't matter anymore, but it seems like some buys need to properly evaluate starting prices and tip quantities at the beginning of a buy, this one is not the only one I have seen that has appeared to have some issues.

There seem to be 2 schools of thought here. The first is to throw extra keys into a set to kinda sorta cover special users (EG, throw in an extra 2.25u shift for fc660m users.) The second is to tailor deals so the price-sensitive TKL users pay as little as possible, and the specialty keyboard users all band together to get their specialty keys.

I went for the latter route, as that is what was getting better feedback. In retrospect maybe I should have gone with the first route, but there isn't a whole lot of collected wisdom on the subject, and talking to experienced people gets you conflicting answers.

The starting prices on this buy, like the SA escape key buy that is still up may be unnecessarily high, and I would be afraid that unless people suck it up for the first 25 sets on some options that the initial price may bar many people from entering.  I would hate to have people pass it over since it is too expensive, when just having a handful of people buy in puts it in very reasonable levels.  Like the mod packs (blue TKL is this example) which drop from $115 -> $81 -> $56 at 15, 25, and 50 sets respectively and then level out to more reasonable price drops from there, where the '50' price bracket is a place where I assume many people would buy it initially.  Ideally I think people would be less inhibited to buy in at a high MOQ with a low price than a high initial price with a low MOQ with the prospect of future discounts (the wallet speaks louder than future promises).  Though I know for all things it is also a balance of low MOQ to tip some kits so that people can get what they need for their esoteric boards, vs low prices/high MOQ to entice people in, but I think for the common sets that are almost a guarantee, they should be adjusted accordingly (higher MOQ but lower prices), especially where there are so many custom legends to distribute the costs better.

This whole problem would go away if PMK had an option to commit at a price level. Having to walk the line between high initial price and just meeting the MOQ is very difficult because so many people don't understand that the price will come down if it takes off.

Another thing to take into account would be to see that the price of 60% and TKL sets are about the same ($2-$8 difference from what I can tell depending on price bracket), and that there is only about 9 keys extra in the 60% not in the TKL kit.  So the question would be, could you hit lower price brackets and leverage volume if you lumped them together instead of splitting them into separate sets?

You know, the way I ended up with 3 sets (TKL, 60%, and ortholinear) was an evolution, and in retrospect I should have eliminated the 60% kit. However, it all started as "TKL" and "Small Boards" (which had both 60% and Ortholinear.) When I later decided to split ortholinear into its own set I should have reevaluated the 60% set, but for whatever reason that never entered my mind (even when I was being ruthless about cutting child deals because I felt I had too many. I still have too many, but I used to have 35+.) So here we are with a 60% set that will be expensive, if it tips. :/

Hopefully people want the set enough to buy over the hump of the high initial prices as I really wanted one of the TKL sets as the new legends look good and can mix well with other sculptured SA sets, but if not I don't think I will be going in before the 50 mark as I can get other sets for cheaper that are more complete (like SA retro at $80 for a full TKL set that also includes the tsangen set).  Hopefully the interest check votes turn into purchases early on, and I will be watching at the end and will contribute to hitting 50 if things are close.

It's easy to say "Oh, of course it'll hit 50", but since I went for flexibility I'm not sure I can say that. There are 6 mod kits to choose from, so the buys will be spread over that. If I manage to sell 100 base kits that's only 16 each. I would have needed to eliminate more choices to make that viable.

I also agree they should have a commit to buy option, though I think they would need less price brackets, as the more brackets the more spread out the commits are, so everyone might just buy into 200 sets and then nothing tips (well based on most PMK SA profile buys that seemed to end around 100 sets or so, pulse would have been the only one to break that mark).  So the upper buy in should probably be 100 and then have it that as more sales go they drop the price as brackets are passed.  That way there is a reasonable discount to shoot for but no penalty for setting it lower than what could be achieved in the market.  As you can tell I have thought about this a bit as I have looked at how some buys have been ran, either on PMK, massdrop, or the old school google form way and tried to think of how the process could be improved.

Honestly I think a massdrop style "commit at lowest" with maybe 1 or 2 price breaks along the way for people who commit to buy at any level is the way to go. I think you're exactly right in terms of how many will sell. I've been looking at this a lot too, and trying to figure out how to help more niche sets get made.

And yes, I do want this set, I technically have some round 5 leftover black alpha keys coming my way sometime later this year, and getting the black modifiers for them is exactly what I was hoping for in this set, well and maybe the blue too, and some other things as I have some red keys from round 5 coming too, so a nice mix and match is in order.

I think the blue mods will hit 25, which honestly surprised (and pleased) me a little. I figured most people would be like you and want the black more. You can pick up the unix pack now to get some red, black and blue keys to mix in as well, it's only one purchase away from dropping to $18.

[skullydazed]

We just hit the first price break for the Blue TKL Mods! They're now $81, a $34 drop! We've also tipped both Dvorak and Colemak, so anyone that doesn't type on qwerty can buy with confidence.

[noumenology]

This is wrapping up pretty soon, I really hope those black mods tip.

[jerue]

This is wrapping up pretty soon, I really hope those black mods tip.

Same here. Only a few more days to go, and we only need 2! Watching that timer like a hawk...

skullydazed, this is a great set. Very excited for it. I just wish that r/mk key didn't require 25 orders to tip, doesn't look like it will either 

[skullydazed]

Thanks for your support guys! The good news is that we've tipped the black mods! You better hop on them now, because I don't think I will do them again in round 2. I'll focus on the sets that are selling and have fewer deals.

I'm honestly surprised the /r/mk keys didn't sell better, but I think they will tip. I figured of all the child deals that would be the easiest one to hit 25, and the others would struggle. Live and learn.

[Bleat]

Hi, my friend and I are interested in a set for our Infinity 60% Keyboard (Standard layout)

– We both need a set with Right Shift 1.75x
– She needs a 1.5x Delete key (where the |\ key would usually be)
– And I'll need a 1x Delete key

Which of these sets meet our requirements?

[skullydazed]

Hi Bleat, sorry I didn't see this sooner. I also responded over on PMK.

You should be good to go with the 60% kit. The black won't tip but the blue will, so you should be good as long as you hop on blue.

[jerue]

Skully, just out of curiosity, do you happen to have an IBM Selectric? I just picked one up for $20 today and it's a dream...and making me more excited for this keyset.

Speaking of, if you decide to run a second round, here's what I would like to see:

• Text Mods
• Geekhack novelty keys
• Black Mac keys re-run (missed out the first time since I was buying those black TKL mods)
• Novelty keypack with keys from the original Selectric. Here's what I'm thinking of:

R1: "1" key with []+ symbols , INDEX, MAR REL
R2: that wondrous "o ^{1/4 1/2} !" key
R3: Stepped "LOCK" key, Red and Black ON and OFF keys, CLR, SET

So basically, more Selectric! 

(if you need to visualize, here ya go)

More

[skullydazed]

I do, actually. Here's a photo of mine from early in development comparing crap bag keys I got to see how much it'd look like a selectric.



I love typing on mine from time to time, I just wish I had more reasons to use it. I have a local(ish) shop that still repairs typewriters that I bought mine from, he basically just charged me the cost of refurbishing it. Really nice guy, didn't know anything about mechanical keyboards but seemed interested.

I'd definitely love to run a round two. A few people have asked about text mods but I'm still not sure that fits in with my taste. I may consider updating the design with more traditional icon/text mods for R2, I'll have to give it some thought. I don't think I'll be rerunning the black mods, though. One thing I learned here is that blue is the more popular option (and is what I liked better anyway, should have gone with my gut) so R2, if it happens, will probably start with a base set that looks something like this.

[jerue]

I don't think I'll be rerunning the black mods, though.

Darn. Yeah, you're right about the blue though - more "IBM" like. Hope someone on GH or r/mk will part with their Mac mods at some point.

will probably start with a base set that looks something like this.

Love the stepped caps lock and ALT/Option key. The super/meta keys seem a bit out of context compared to the rest of the mods...maybe just the shape outline?

[blastoid]

Just got this in my email:

http://i.imgur.com/A1O4Bjc.png

from customerservice@solutionsinplastic.com

Is Modern Selectric shipping??!??!!

[skullydazed]

It's supposed to ship any time now. Looks like you may be one of the first! I haven't heard anything yet.

[blastoid]

It's supposed to ship any time now. Looks like you may be one of the first! I haven't heard anything yet.

I emailed Melissa and she confirmed it!

[skullydazed]

Got my sets in today!









Who else is getting theirs? Show them off here!

[Data]

Wow, that blue was a really great choice.

[skullydazed]

Wow, that blue was a really great choice.

Thanks! I spent a lot of time in the sun looking at color chips before I settled on it.

[skullydazed]

I've been talking to Signature Plastics about some of the legends on Modern Selectric. There were a few that were made incorrectly.

• The colemak set received an R3 2U backspace, not the R3 1.75U backspace they should have.
• The \| key was too far right to properly align
• The Unix pack and the 60% set's R3 1.75U ^ key was too far left to properly align

The good news is that SP will be making corrected legends in both black and blue. You can contact SP with your order number, and once they've made the new keys they'll get them out to you.

Thank you everyone for your support and enthusiasm through this entire process. It's been a lot of work to get to this point, and seeing what you are doing with my keyset has been amazing.

And a special thank you to Melissa at Signature Plastics. She's the most overworked person I know in the keyboard community, and yet she still manages to do a great job.

[romevi]

I've been talking to Signature Plastics about some of the legends on Modern Selectric. There were a few that were made incorrectly.

• The colemak set received an R3 2U backspace, not the R3 1.75U backspace they should have.
• The \| key was too far right to properly align
• The Unix pack and the 60% set's R3 1.75U ^ key was too far left to properly align

The good news is that SP will be making corrected legends in both black and blue. You can contact SP with your order number, and once they've made the new keys they'll get them out to you.

Thank you everyone for your support and enthusiasm through this entire process. It's been a lot of work to get to this point, and seeing what you are doing with my keyset has been amazing.

And a special thank you to Melissa at Signature Plastics. She's the most overworked person I know in the keyboard community, and yet she still manages to do a great job.

Seriously, Melissa is awesome. Not only does she handle most of the communication from designers and vendors, but she also managed to answer my measly questions in no more than two days. That's including weekends.

We should contribute to get her an Xmas gift, or something.

[StitchedTogether]

Who else is getting theirs? Show them off here!

This is my first post here. After a bit of wait for Her Majesty's Customs and Excise to work out how much they were going to embezzle me for importing them, mine arrived today.

Here they are on my Filco MiniLA Air. The MiniLA has a bit of an unconventional layout so had to make a few substitutions. The Space bar and left shift keys being the obvious ones. This is my first SA set and I love them. Thats pretty much all I can say, they're a joy to type on. Apologies to the purists for my dodgy layout choices.

[skullydazed]

This is my first post here. After a bit of wait for Her Majesty's Customs and Excise to work out how much they were going to embezzle me for importing them, mine arrived today.

Here they are on my Filco MiniLA Air. The MiniLA has a bit of an unconventional layout so had to make a few substitutions. The Space bar and left shift keys being the obvious ones. This is my first SA set and I love them. Thats pretty much all I can say, they're a joy to type on. Apologies to the purists for my dodgy layout choices.

That looks really good. Given the unconventional layout I'd say you have nothing to worry about from the purists.

[Elrick]

Okay this is a question that needed to be asked here, I noticed PMK's website is up and running and I did notice this luscious key-set, which I missed on buying, in the first round of it when it was available.

Is there another Group Buy being run here or can you order all the extras and pay for them to get immediate delivery?

Also the website looks superb, very professional and heaps of nice images with easy navigation.

[skullydazed]

Order away! Those are the extras that go up after every traditional PMK group buy. They did the same for Think Different, Eve, and a few others. You should get them sent out immediately.

[spacemonkey001]

Were row 4 shifts ever made for Modern Selectric?

[chuckdee]

Order away! Those are the extras that go up after every traditional PMK group buy. They did the same for Think Different, Eve, and a few others. You should get them sent out immediately.

So if something says out of stock, it's actually out of production and won't be restocked?

[skullydazed]

Were row 4 shifts ever made for Modern Selectric?

No, row 4 shifts are limited to centered legends, and these had offset legends.

Order away! Those are the extras that go up after every traditional PMK group buy. They did the same for Think Different, Eve, and a few others. You should get them sent out immediately.

So if something says out of stock, it's actually out of production and won't be restocked?

Correct. I may run another round at some point.

[chuckdee]

Order away! Those are the extras that go up after every traditional PMK group buy. They did the same for Think Different, Eve, and a few others. You should get them sent out immediately.

So if something says out of stock, it's actually out of production and won't be restocked?

Correct. I may run another round at some point.

I wait on the edge of my seat.  I had an opportunity to get the ortholinear modifiers, but balked at the price.  And when I was finally going to get them, they were gone.

[Dernubenfrieken]

Order away! Those are the extras that go up after every traditional PMK group buy. They did the same for Think Different, Eve, and a few others. You should get them sent out immediately.

So if something says out of stock, it's actually out of production and won't be restocked?

Correct. I may run another round at some point.

I wait on the edge of my seat.  I had an opportunity to get the ortholinear modifiers, but balked at the price.  And when I was finally going to get them, they were gone.

I was waiting to order the unix pack, and then it sold out a day later. Not happy about that.

[Elrick]

Correct. I may run another round at some point.

PLEASE do because there are a lot of us that actually like this key-set and it's always missing on PMK's website.

[mteinum]

It's a great looking set on my Atreus


Atreus 40% by Morten Teinum, on Flickr

[romevi]

It's a great looking set on my Atreus

Show Image

Atreus 40% by Morten Teinum, on Flickr

I've seen you post the Atreus more than other boards. Is it your favorite?

[mteinum]

It's a great looking set on my Atreus

Show Image

Atreus 40% by Morten Teinum, on Flickr

I've seen you post the Atreus more than other boards. Is it your favorite?

HHKB is my daily driver at work, but Atreus is a fun keyboard when I'm home.

[K-Style]

Here's another vote for this set. I bought the last Dvorak set just to see what they're like for real. Not so interested in the blue colour though.

[parablol]

Here's another vote for this set. I bought the last Dvorak set just to see what they're like for real. Not so interested in the blue colour though.

Here is one more vote. Not just for the base set, but also Dvorak add-on too.

[Raktageno]

Is it too late to throw another vote in the ring? I've been drooling over a black modern selectric keycap set all morning, and created an account just so I could post here.

[K-Style]

Is it too late to throw another vote in the ring? I've been drooling over a black modern selectric keycap set all morning, and created an account just so I could post here.

We're not late. Just very early for the next run of this.

[molassacre]

Consider me in for a set if you do another run!

[spgill]

Finally created a geekhack account just to keep tabs on this thread :>

[Turgur]

Throwing my vote in. Want these badly!

[fnurl]

I've been wanting this set since I first saw it. Following suite and showing very early interest in the next round if it happens

[ihalatch]

I've been wanting this set since I first saw it. Following suite and showing very early interest in the next round if it happens

+1

[okaboni]

Oh I really need those black alphas and modifiers...

[Rychubil]

Oh I really need those black alphas and modifiers...

...me too. If someone want to sell I am ready to buy 

[etatauri]

I'd be very interested as well, provided it comes with a Colemak/Dvorak kit.

[BobCarltheThird]

Someday this will be ran again and I'll be so happy once it does.

[helix999]

Another vote for another run. Please make it happen!

[Rychubil]

Hi

Last week I purchased "Maxkey Black SA" keycap set from KBDfans as a substitute of very desirable by myself "Modern Selectric SA". Before I purchased Maxkey set I considered to join drop on Massdrop to "SA Pulse" set but it wasn't to the end what I wanted and they were too expensive.

Anyway, Originally Maxkey Black and Dolch (I already have both sets) as a new are matt. As a experiment I started polishing these keycaps one by one, by the thumb and after one day of polishing them (real time of polishing was roughly 4 hours), keycaps become shiny.
Here are pictures of nonpolished and polished keycaps of Dolch and Black from Maxkey sets:
https://imgur.com/a/Qm4wTb5
I'm going to polish whole my Black set for my 40 and 60% keyboards. For sure, it will take me quite long time but when I wil finish that I publish effect of my hard work shortly.

Already I polished 4 letters: Q W E R

[Rychubil]

So, I finally polished all matte Maxkey Black caps needed to put them on the Poker. I put on some non-polished F1-F5 caps for comparison and here's the effect:
https://imgur.com/a/Qm4wTb5

[elfick]

So, I finally polished all matte Maxkey Black caps needed to put them on the Poker. I put on some non-polished F1-F5 caps for comparison and here's the effect:
https://imgur.com/a/Qm4wTb5

All you used was your thumb?

[Rychubil]

Yes, usually I used thumb and also pointing finger.

[booleanjulien]

I may run another round at some point.

About that time now eh?

[tex_live_utility]

DSS?

[equalunique]

DSS?

I'd like to see another run of Modern Selectric. Not sure yet if I prefer DSS over SA, but will know more after I try out DSS Dolch (waiting on the ortho kit).