Author Topic: The Living 3D Printing Thread  (Read 132615 times)

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Offline TheJonas

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #750 on: Sun, 14 February 2016, 03:27:06 »
Looks like a snug fit. Any idea as to why it clogged up? It seems to have less of a mesh texture, or is that just because it's small?

Offline KHAANNN

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #751 on: Sun, 14 February 2016, 03:39:07 »
while pla is more like a gel in optimal circumstances, bronzefill felt a lot like clay, so my guess is only a pristine and clean nozzle should handle it well, my nozzle at the time was a year old (hexagon), clogged really bad, I could only unclog it by repeatedly penetrating it with a thin wire, it took days, then I realized I bent the hotend anyway, and got an E3D

If the temp/speed dynamics aren't optimal with bronzefill, it should irreversibly clog the nozzle fast, once a build up occurs in the nozzle, it's really hard to get decent performance afterwards
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Offline vvp

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #752 on: Sun, 14 February 2016, 13:35:58 »
Anyone else get a new spool for every new project? :)
Not me. But do you know that you can pause a print, replace the spool/filament and continue later? The filament will not be perfectly primed so you will be able to notice it on the printed part but it mostly does not matter.

Edit: The best place to do it is during infill.
« Last Edit: Sun, 14 February 2016, 13:37:35 by vvp »

Offline KHAANNN

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #753 on: Sun, 14 February 2016, 13:43:15 »
Anyone else get a new spool for every new project? :)
Not me. But do you know that you can pause a print, replace the spool/filament and continue later? The filament will not be perfectly primed so you will be able to notice it on the printed part but it mostly does not matter.

Edit: The best place to do it is during infill.

yeah :D

used to do it a lot, not for replacement but mainly for fun, mixing different colors

last time I paused a print tho, during a power outage, things went to hell, for some reason the print didn't continue as expected, it turns out if I waited 2-3 minutes the power would come back and the ups would last - after that event I didn't risk another pause yet, let alone a spool change :)

In hindsight, I'm guessing it was a Simplify 3D bug
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Offline vvp

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #754 on: Sun, 14 February 2016, 13:46:25 »
If the printer controller board lost power then the internal state was lost too. I'm not surprised resume did not work.

Offline alexjd99

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #755 on: Sun, 14 February 2016, 14:02:54 »
1 spool per project would drive up the costs, then yet again, running out halfway could be worse. Show us some pics of your 3D print once it's done :)


Here is a prototype bronze plate:
(Attachment Link)

After clogging my initial hotend with bronzefill, then dislodging the replacement E3D with XT-CF20, sticking to PLA seems like the better choice, tho I have a hunch the E3D should handle bronzefill well, but can't risk it

Bronzefill plate is giving me so many ideas.
Ninjaflex plate here I come  ;)

Offline sinusoid

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #756 on: Sun, 14 February 2016, 15:12:44 »
I use Orbitech black or neutral ABS for my stuff, rather avoiding PLA.

The reason is mechanical properties - PLA is impossible to sand, cut or machine. Any attempt at postprocessing it is a gate to a world of pain. Since I print stuff to tight tolerances, I often remove imperfections from the prints mechanically, and ABS has the right feels for that. Plus - you can easily glue it with acetone or ABS juice.

PLA is very good for polyester resin pouring, if you want to make molds out of it. Peels off without any mold separator or anything. You can heat it up a little, that helps to get it off the model.
ABS is totally crap at it.

I'm curious about metal powder mix filaments, because they might have better heat conductivity and lower shrinkage rate, especially when ABS is used as base. Haven't used them yet, though.

Ninjaflex is totally nuts, one of the most awesome materials I've printed with. Takes some time to get used to it, but then it's simply awesome.
Use PVA or PLA as support on a dual-extruder machine.

If anyone knows what solvent works for Ninjaflex, please tell!

Offline TheJonas

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #757 on: Mon, 15 February 2016, 01:15:28 »
Anyone else get a new spool for every new project? :)
Not me. But do you know that you can pause a print, replace the spool/filament and continue later? The filament will not be perfectly primed so you will be able to notice it on the printed part but it mostly does not matter.

Edit: The best place to do it is during infill.

yeah :D

used to do it a lot, not for replacement but mainly for fun, mixing different colors

last time I paused a print tho, during a power outage, things went to hell, for some reason the print didn't continue as expected, it turns out if I waited 2-3 minutes the power would come back and the ups would last - after that event I didn't risk another pause yet, let alone a spool change :)

In hindsight, I'm guessing it was a Simplify 3D bug

If you lose power the memory probably got cleared, best to start over again in this case. Don't hold yourself back and mix those colors :D

Offline KHAANNN

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #758 on: Mon, 15 February 2016, 04:39:58 »
My previous assumption was the print to be stateless, so the printer could execute the g-code at hand, and after the resume, continue executing the remaining g-code simplify3d sends, I also recall asking at robo3d forums about this scenario, remember getting a positive reply, however since the printer auto-levels at the firmware level, obviously at a power loss that information would be lost too, so the non-continuity is obvious in this case :D - I should've probably let the printer board stay powered

Don't know why but I always have a strong desire to try exotic materials for keyboards, I briefly considered a fully bronze keyboard after posting the prototype, however the size challenge is keeping me back

The keyboard would need to be printed in 2-3 pieces, and those 2-3 pieces never align perfectly, the alignment flaws are almost always noticeable from the keycaps

It's probably a good idea to
1) Print the case in 2 pieces, the top plate would be a part of the case
2) Print the lower plate in 3 pieces, so the intertwined parts could correct the alignment
Result) Making the keyboard a hand-wired one with a 5mm plate

But still, a small impact could bend the keyboard easily, so some sort of glue would need to be used, one that is strong, yet doesn't take up space between the parts

Even if it turns out perfect, 3d printed parts are awful to touch :D
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Offline vvp

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #759 on: Mon, 15 February 2016, 06:24:53 »
This works well with ABS:
  • Print big part in more pieces. Leave 0.3 mm gap between the pieces.
  • Print a template which allows you to alight the pieces precisely. E.g. if you are printing a switch plate then print a planar piece which has cuboids at the surface which correspond precisely to the switch holes; put-on the plate parts on the sticking cuboids; this aligns the plate parts precisely.
  • Use ABS-glue to glue the aligned parts together.
  • Paint with acetone to get smoother surface.

Offline TheJonas

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #760 on: Mon, 15 February 2016, 06:46:13 »
I prefer laser cutting some acrylic for a plate (don't ban me from this thread). But as vvp mentioned; leaving a gap between the plates and then filling it up should work. However, vvp, the reason for printing it in three pieces is because a one-piece 60% plate is impossible to print for some people, as the dimensions can be larger than the build plate. So it would not be possible to print a planar piece the size of a whole plate with cuboids for aligning. Unless you also print this in pieces; but this will probably cause more problems.

Offline vvp

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #761 on: Mon, 15 February 2016, 13:00:50 »
The size of the printed part is limited not only by the build plate but also by warping (especially when you do not have heat chamber).
My problem with laser cutting is that I cannot laser cut a contoured plate like this: https://deskthority.net/post247068.html#p247068
The top part of the case is printed in 2 pieces (keywell and palm part). Then they are glued using the technique I described. Works pretty well.

Offline KHAANNN

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #762 on: Mon, 15 February 2016, 13:25:18 »
The size of the printed part is limited not only by the build plate but also by warping (especially when you do not have heat chamber).
My problem with laser cutting is that I cannot laser cut a contoured plate like this: https://deskthority.net/post247068.html#p247068
The top part of the case is printed in 2 pieces (keywell and palm part). Then they are glued using the technique I described. Works pretty well.

Off topic, those keycaps are just "mmm"

Another challenge with multi-part printing is the sub-1mm imperfections, when you put 2 pieces side by side, the 3d printing imperfection is pretty obvious even if it's 0.1mm
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Offline TheJonas

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #763 on: Tue, 16 February 2016, 00:37:54 »
Good point vvp, I was mainly thinking of 60%s, forgot about those ergonomic contoured split boards. And I completely agree with KHAANNN, a small gap looks enormous. I made a sandwich case (stacked laser cut plates) and the misalignment bothers me so much even though it's 0.1mm or less.

Offline vvp

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #764 on: Tue, 16 February 2016, 03:31:42 »
Off topic, those keycaps are just "mmm"
Nothing special. The black ones are OEM DCS salvaged from an old keyboard.
The blue ones are SP DSA. The rest is SP DCS.
Some legends do not correspond to the actual layout I use.

Another challenge with multi-part printing is the sub-1mm imperfections, when you put 2 pieces side by side, the 3d printing imperfection is pretty obvious even if it's 0.1mm
Yes that is the problem. That is also the reason to leave 0.3 mm gap at the places where parts are going to be glued together. 0.1 mm from each side for surface imperfection and 0.1 mm in the middle for the glue.

One probably can do better than 0.1 mm surface precision if printing really slowly and with 0.1 mm layer height ... or even smaller. But I prefer to have it printed quickly  so I typicality print at 12 cm/s and 0.2 mm layer height.

Here is an example of a part printed at 0.1 mm layer height and 2 cm/s. Very low speed to allow for cooling. It is acetone painted ABS. Wall precision is about 0.05 mm except the obvious locations where it is much worse. The locations are:
  • The few bottom layers (too squashed to the build plate so plastic is pushed out to the sides).
  • The top infill layers (full infill pushed some plastic out to the sides ... probably slight error in the extruder calibration).
The thread size is M16. So it is a small part. If you want very precise wall then extruder calibration gets very important ... and also filament diameter stability. I just settle at 0.1 mm precision which is rather easily achievable.
« Last Edit: Tue, 16 February 2016, 03:37:03 by vvp »

Offline sinusoid

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #765 on: Tue, 16 February 2016, 13:16:33 »
Leave 0.3 mm gap between the pieces.

Ha! 0.3mm seems to be a magic number for FFF machines :P For XY axes, at least.

Mirrors my experiences for tolerances on small parts. I tested this several times, and always ended up with 0.3mm for parts that have to match each other, or an external element.

My previous assumption was the print to be stateless, so the printer could execute the g-code at hand, and after the resume, continue executing the remaining g-code simplify3d sends

[...]

Even if it turns out perfect, 3d printed parts are awful to touch :D

That's actually a pretty fine idea! If the printer runs off Gcode, you could set the firmware to remove parts of it that were already executed, allowing the whole thing to get up after a power failure.

Firmware homing is not present on certain printers, mine fortunately doesn't have it, relies on Gcode from slicer to do that. If that's the case, you can try to trim the gcode manually to the line where the print failed, and run it like a usual Gcode.
For machines that run off compiled Gcode like Makerbot, you have to run it through GMX plugin (Simplify bundles it, also - free on github afair) to make it readable.

A good UPS is a safer bet, though.

re:awful to touch, that depends. 0.1mm layer with soft ABS isn't all that terrible. 0.05 takes looooong but is very smooth. I prefer to post-process parts instead.



Btw, if you don't like the feel, Skeinforge has an option to subdivide the external part of the model to fractions of the main layer, so you can get a 0.3mm layer on the insides, and 0.3/4=0.075 everywhere else :)

Offline TheJonas

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #766 on: Wed, 17 February 2016, 01:37:32 »
About being smooth to the touch; I can imagine 0.05 being smooth, but some people could still notice the imperfections. Post-processing is indeed the best way to smooth it out, but you have to be very methodical while doing it.

Offline KHAANNN

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #767 on: Wed, 17 February 2016, 09:32:57 »
It's more of a metallurgical thing actually, metal >> plastic, I tend to grip the keyboard from the sides, aluminium always stays clean, it kind of reduces sweating significantly, while with plastic the situation is opposite - that's why even If I work through all the challenges, a plastic keyboard doesn't appeal to me too much

By the way, as a small piece of information, PLA absorbs spray paints, so no matter what color PLA you use, you can spray paint it, and even if it gets scratched, the original color doesn't reveal itself easily - haven't tested the same thing with ABS

The problem with spray painting is always having the need to coat it, as the paint itself chips etc. - but with PLA, it's a joy, no need for coatings
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Offline sinusoid

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #768 on: Wed, 17 February 2016, 15:23:48 »
@KHAANNN, you can spray coat both PLA and ABS with ABS juice using a spray paint gun. Doesn't chip, sticks like cyanoacrylate to eyelids, and smooths out the print nicely :)

Offline KHAANNN

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #769 on: Mon, 14 March 2016, 03:57:05 »
PLA/PHA Experience

It's awesome, not much different than regular PLA, yet shines slightly less, has a better color, the occasional warping is gone (I print PLA into the build plate, which prevents warping, with PLA/PHA, the resulting bottom layer can be thinner, closer to the actual dimensions, with no warping)

My only remaining issue is shining sections (a different shining) of the parts, I don't know why they shine, it might be vegetable oil from my oiler (that I didn't re-fill) - or it might be from the PLA/PHA material, but somehow parts of the resulting print shines, and when I spray paint it with a matte paint, the shiny parts shine under the paint too, it's pretty disturbing :D - probably oil

I tried sanding the part a bit, hoping the dust would absorb the oil, it indeed did tone down the shiny sections significantly
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Offline MajorKoos

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #770 on: Thu, 12 May 2016, 17:56:41 »
After building a couple of kits I decided to take the plunge and 3d print as much of as Ergodox as possible.
So far the case is done and I'm working through printing all the keys - I've included some shots of my WIP.

Because I'm using a FDM machine and want to avoid supports as much as possible I've based the case around Lister's acrylic case.
For my printer I had to make the switch plate 1.3mm thick for the clasps on the switches to properly engage, but that was the hardest part.

The keys themselves can be tricky on a FDM style printer, but I've found something workable @ 60 microns and 30 mm/s
The stems were particularly tricky to get "just right" so they don't grind anywhere.

FWIW material costs are insanely low - the case cost perhaps $10 to print (including failed attempts) and the keys are 5-10 cents a pop. :thumb:
The a circuit board, switches and teensy from MK set me back another $100 or so.
For my next attempt I'm going to see if I can use ninjaflex to mask the traces on some copper clad board and etch it myself  :))


Offline KHAANNN

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #771 on: Thu, 12 May 2016, 22:50:45 »
After building a couple of kits I decided to take the plunge and 3d print as much of as Ergodox as possible.
So far the case is done and I'm working through printing all the keys - I've included some shots of my WIP.

Because I'm using a FDM machine and want to avoid supports as much as possible I've based the case around Lister's acrylic case.
For my printer I had to make the switch plate 1.3mm thick for the clasps on the switches to properly engage, but that was the hardest part.

The keys themselves can be tricky on a FDM style printer, but I've found something workable @ 60 microns and 30 mm/s
The stems were particularly tricky to get "just right" so they don't grind anywhere.

FWIW material costs are insanely low - the case cost perhaps $10 to print (including failed attempts) and the keys are 5-10 cents a pop. :thumb:
The a circuit board, switches and teensy from MK set me back another $100 or so.
For my next attempt I'm going to see if I can use ninjaflex to mask the traces on some copper clad board and etch it myself  :))

Wow, I love the keycaps, how did you pull the gaps off? (the texts) - it must be a detailed printer

A while ago, I tried manually drilling the texts and filling them with stuff, sort of like a double-shot, yet gave up easily
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Offline vvp

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #772 on: Fri, 13 May 2016, 03:36:06 »
Yeah, pretty good result.

Offline MajorKoos

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #773 on: Fri, 13 May 2016, 07:52:44 »
I printed out my top row numbers overnight - not too shabby

I'm using a Ultimaker 2 for the work.
- 0.25mm nozzle
- 0.06mm layer height
- 30mm/s

I used the 3D builder app in Windows 10 to add the embossed lettering to the keys.

I'll keep the STLs here and update as I go:
https://github.com/MajorKoos/KBDParts


Offline vvp

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #774 on: Fri, 13 May 2016, 11:58:02 »
If it is ABS you can try to paint them with acetone.
If it is PLA you can try paint them with tetrahydrofuran (THF).

Acetone works fine. I did not try THF yet but it is claimed to dull colors.

Offline sinusoid

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #775 on: Sun, 15 May 2016, 17:11:15 »
Isn't that stuff carcinogenous?

You can paint PLA over with acetone/ABS slurry, it bonds to PLA VERY well.
You can add a bit of a powder dye to it as well, to make the colors better.


Actually, ever since I got into that 3d printing thing, ABS/acetone slurry started to cover most of my gluing needs, replacing cyanoacrylates and epoxies in most cases. Stuff's fast drying, sturdy, has great elasticity, and shrinks when drying, clinging mechanically to elements it can't make a chemical bond with. And you can easily dilute or concentrate it.

Offline MajorKoos

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #776 on: Sun, 15 May 2016, 21:27:04 »
I've been testing ColorFabb XT for making switch plates and cases - pics attached.

The JD40 is looking pretty sweet - I'm thinking of making it a Bluetooth number considering how small and portable it is.
Because it's translucent I'll add some internal LEDs for some pimp lighting


Offline vvp

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #777 on: Mon, 16 May 2016, 05:39:23 »
Wiki claims THD is about as poisonous as acetone but it is suspected of causing cancer.
Styrenes (released when printing with ABS or sublimating from polystyrene) may be linked to cancer too.
Wording about PLA was "probably not causing cancer". So it is not completely safe either.

I guess only few substances nowadays are not suspected of being linked to cancer.

Offline BlueNalgene

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #778 on: Tue, 17 May 2016, 12:32:32 »
Isn't that stuff carcinogenous?

You can paint PLA over with acetone/ABS slurry, it bonds to PLA VERY well.
You can add a bit of a powder dye to it as well, to make the colors better.


Actually, ever since I got into that 3d printing thing, ABS/acetone slurry started to cover most of my gluing needs, replacing cyanoacrylates and epoxies in most cases. Stuff's fast drying, sturdy, has great elasticity, and shrinks when drying, clinging mechanically to elements it can't make a chemical bond with. And you can easily dilute or concentrate it.

Wiki claims THD is about as poisonous as acetone but it is suspected of causing cancer.
Styrenes (released when printing with ABS or sublimating from polystyrene) may be linked to cancer too.
Wording about PLA was "probably not causing cancer". So it is not completely safe either.

I guess only few substances nowadays are not suspected of being linked to cancer.

Chemist here.  THF can be a bit nastier than acetone.  But for both, I recommend the same precautions:

1) do it outside or well ventilated
2) Goggles and gloves(nitrile) for PPE
3) Don't huff it like a dumbass.

If you follow those rules, you should be fine.  If you are doing something every day, then you should worry more about chronic exposure.  But if you are just doing some crafting every once in a while, I wouldn't worry about it too much if you use proper safety precautions.

Offline THX1138b

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #779 on: Wed, 25 October 2017, 09:42:12 »
Hey are you aware of this SCAD project to produce many keys (with engraved or embossed legends) at the same time?

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:468651/#files

https://github.com/rsheldiii/openSCAD-projects




Offline Ailment

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #780 on: Tue, 09 January 2018, 11:55:15 »
Putting my 2 cents in.  Finished a case prototype for my TADA/SABER.  Sketchy height for the size, definitely had a clog half way up but it cleared itself.  Need to slow down but happy that everything lined up correctly for the screw holes etc.  Now to work on looks and a wrist wrest.

Little album
https://imgur.com/gallery/YkKsB