Author Topic: Thinking about Dvorak  (Read 18579 times)

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Offline knightjp

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Thinking about Dvorak
« on: Mon, 08 July 2019, 06:36:50 »
I've been thinking of switching to Dvorak for quite a while though. I have been using QWERTY for a while now. I've noticed that for me, coming back to QWERTY is not that bad as I believe that the layout is so imprinted in my brain, my fingers already know where each letter is.
And I think that for those who choose to use an alternative layout and still keep the keys in the standard layout, this will be the case. The image of QWERTY is just imprinted in the brain because every time you look at your keyboard, that is what you see.

However I've noticed that I'm not making much improvement with QWERTY anymore. While others are getting over 70 WPM, I'm just barely scratching 35 WPM. Its slow. Too slow to be taken seriously.

I noticed that I was far more comfortable and a bit faster when using Dvorak. However I switched to QWERTY because I wanted to be able to type fast on anything without getting too hung up on layouts.

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 08 July 2019, 06:54:22 »
Have you looked into Colemak?
"I never understood wind. I know windmills very much, I have studied it better than anybody. I know it is very expensive. They are made in China and Germany mostly, very few made here, almost none, but they are manufactured, tremendous ó if you are into this ó tremendous fumes and gases are spewing into the atmosphere. You know we have a world, right? So the world is tiny compared to the universe. So tremendous, tremendous amount of fumes and everything. You talk about the carbon footprint, fumes are spewing into the air, right spewing, whether it is China or Germany, is going into the air.
A windmill will kill many bald eagles. After a certain number, they make you turn the windmill off, that is true. By the way, they make you turn it off. And yet, if you killed one, they put you in jail. That is OK. But why is it OK for windmills to destroy the bird population?"
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Offline Sintpinty

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 08 July 2019, 07:43:21 »
I've been thinking of switching to Dvorak for quite a while though. I have been using QWERTY for a while now. I've noticed that for me, coming back to QWERTY is not that bad as I believe that the layout is so imprinted in my brain, my fingers already know where each letter is.
And I think that for those who choose to use an alternative layout and still keep the keys in the standard layout, this will be the case. The image of QWERTY is just imprinted in the brain because every time you look at your keyboard, that is what you see.

However I've noticed that I'm not making much improvement with QWERTY anymore. While others are getting over 70 WPM, I'm just barely scratching 35 WPM. Its slow. Too slow to be taken seriously.

I noticed that I was far more comfortable and a bit faster when using Dvorak. However I switched to QWERTY because I wanted to be able to type fast on anything without getting too hung up on layouts.

At first, you may notice a huge slowdown in your typing speed. This is perfectly normal, I had this when learning qwerty.

To get as fast as me it takes Years of practice . I practiced every day, for two hours straight, competing against other typists as well as doing exercises on websites.

That's probably why you would see over 1000 typing tests and at least 10 per day on my 10fastfingers typing profile.

Don't worry, you will get there soon. Have motivation and courage!

Offline equalunique

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 08 July 2019, 12:14:07 »
Learning Dvorak has been a great experience for me, but YMMV.

I started out with blank keycaps on a WASD CODE V2 keyboard set to hardware-Dvorak mode. The blank keycaps increase the learning curve quite a bit, but in the end, I feel like they were super helpful. I've been typing Dvorak for almost 3 years now and rarely have to look down at a keyboard. Dvorak legends are nice, but the truth is I only want them for vanity - I definitely don't need them. Most keyboards I type Dvorak on now days all have Qwerty legends, and they don't mess me up at all. I owe that to starting out with blank keycaps. At least, if you're starting out, I recommend using blank keycaps on the alpha keys & keeping your modifier keys labeled.

All I used to train myself was GNU Typist. After the first week, I had completed all of the Dvorak courses, and had basically memorized all I needed to know. It's not hard to memorize where each letter is in relation to your fingers on the home row. The hard part is the muscle memory. Honestly for the first month it took me 10x longer to write basic emails because even though I knew where all the letters were supposed to be, I literally had to think about it each time I went to type anything. It took a few months to get back to 60 WPM. I also stuck with it - didn't switch back to Qwerty for anything serious besides entering in a few passwords, games, etc. My productivity took a hit in the beginning and it was super frustrating at times, especially when engaging in real-time chats & hot email threads.

Personally, I feel like Dvorak is easier to type with than Qwerty. I also suspect that it is easier to type with than Colemak. I mean, how difficult can it be when you have almost every vowel underneath your left hand's fingers, with the other two being just one key away? When I would hear people say that Dvorak is harder, I generally didn't believe them, and thought that maybe they didn't stick with it for long enough, or maybe didn't use an effective learning strategy/tool, etc. I have sincerely believed that if one applies themselves, then they will excel with it, and even find it super comfortable to use. Recently, however, my views have changed, not about ease of typing, but in regards to shortcuts.

(Background: For several years I have had what's easiest to describe as an issue with my right shoulder, so about 4 years now have been trying to become more ambidextrous in various things. One of the things I do, which I can do easily since I don't game much, is primarily use my left hand for mouse movement. I use trackballs most of the time now, but back when I was learning Dvorak, it was a simple mouse that wasn't sculpted in a way to favor any particular hand (i.e., ambidextrous). On top of that, I also use business-style laptops A LOT which all feature some variaton of the IBM/Lenovo TrackPoint mouse, which is also pretty much ambidextrous. The only time I ever use a right hand for mouse operation is when I'm occasionally gaming, which also happens to be when I switch back to Qwerty too.)

Here's what I overlooked: On a Qwerty row-staggered board, the Z (undo), X (cut), C (copy), and V (paste) keys are all easy to reach with your left hand. On a row-staggered Dvorak board, these keys are spaced apart from each other, but still easy to hit all with your right hand. If you are like most people and use your right hand to operate your mouse, then using these shortcuts with Dvorak is probably going to be a giant PITA. If you're weird like me, and are using either a TrackPoint or left-handed mouse, then you probably won't even notice an issue. As much as I love Dvorak, I have to admit that this must be the nail in the coffin for a lot of people's opinion of it. Also note that I said "row-staggered Dvorak board" - it's a little further to reach when the board ortho or column-staggered; and admittedly awkward when the board is a split one.

Placement of the Z, X, C, and V keys optimized for right-hand mouse usage is not just a benefit of Qwerty, but also Colemak & Colemak variants too. Same goes for the Mac-oriented Workman layout, the elaborate German/English-oriented Neo layout, fully-optimized Carpal X, and probably others too.

Regardless of what layout you decide to go with, there is one advantage that you'll gain which I think is very important. Most of us start out hunting and pecking with Qwerty. We tend to learn poor typing habits in the beginning and a small percentage of us go on to learn correct touch typing techniques. Learning the techniques is different however from using them in practice, especially when years of hard-to-drop habits come creeping back. Especially if you start out learning with blank keycaps, whatever layout it ends up being, you will be doing probably the most significant thing you've ever done to drop any bad habits that you may have picked up in your Qwerty days. Unless you have been really serious in your Qwerty touch typing discipline, you will probably stand to gain a huge improvement.

Also, the week after I started typing in Dvorak, everything I typed out here would probably have taken a couple hours to type out.
« Last Edit: Mon, 08 July 2019, 12:31:11 by equalunique »

Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 08 July 2019, 12:27:26 »
I tried switching to Colemak for awhile - I haven't given up on it, but it has become much less of a priority for me at this point.  I can type plenty fast on QWERTY as it is, there's really no need for a different layout unless it improves ergonomics.  Also helps to be able to use any keyboard without needing to remind myself how to type on QWERTY.  :P

I will say, at 35 wpm on QWERTY, you've got quite a lot of potential with that layout before moving on to more optimized layouts for typing speed.  If you know you want to learn another layout at some point, go for it now anyway since it won't make a big difference, but I wouldn't look to the layout as the main source of your slowness.  I suspect that if you practice a bit more and get proficient at QWERTY, you can achieve very reasonable speeds with relative ease.  :thumb:

Offline shadowku

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 08 July 2019, 12:46:02 »
I've thought about switching to Dvorak or Colemak but it's just such a hassle since I have so many keyboards and laptops, and they're all somewhat shared with my wife who is not going to switch with me.
If I'm just taking my time when typing, I'm averaging about 90 WPM and I can get 120+ if I'm just typing text, which isn't too often since I'm a developer.
I want to try Dvorak and Colemak to see if I can type faster consistently.



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Offline rxc92

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 09 July 2019, 01:56:01 »
At first, you may notice a huge slowdown in your typing speed. This is perfectly normal, I had this when learning qwerty.

To get as fast as me it takes Years of practice . I practiced every day, for two hours straight, competing against other typists as well as doing exercises on websites.

That's probably why you would see over 1000 typing tests and at least 10 per day on my 10fastfingers typing profile.

Don't worry, you will get there soon. Have motivation and courage!
 
 :eek:  What is your profile? Are you a speedster? 👀 
 
OT: Dvorak took me about a month to learn quite well, and I managed to hit 100 wpm in about a month (after being below that in QWERTY). It's definitely learnable, but takes practice as things do.

Offline Altis

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #7 on: Wed, 10 July 2019, 22:23:42 »
If you're only at 35 WPM with QWERTY, you might get back to that within a day or two switching layouts. Though I'm not sure the layout is the culprit, but it won't hurt to try another. The others are almost certainly more practical for English typing.

My biggest concern would be in using other keyboards that are not set to that layout and having to mentally go between. I haven't experienced it myself, but I fear it could be difficult to switch between the two.
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Offline Sup

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #8 on: Thu, 11 July 2019, 17:00:40 »
I can get 121 WPM with qwerty. So i am pretty sure its not only the layout. The layout may not be optimal but you can definitely type faster then 35 WPM with it...
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Offline rxc92

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 12 July 2019, 20:14:37 »
If you're only at 35 WPM with QWERTY, you might get back to that within a day or two switching layouts. Though I'm not sure the layout is the culprit, but it won't hurt to try another. The others are almost certainly more practical for English typing.

My biggest concern would be in using other keyboards that are not set to that layout and having to mentally go between. I haven't experienced it myself, but I fear it could be difficult to switch between the two.
 
 
Sorry for OT, but how do you like your 30g domes compared to 45g? I never got a chance to try anything other than 45 and 55g

Offline Altis

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #10 on: Sat, 13 July 2019, 02:33:10 »
 
Sorry for OT, but how do you like your 30g domes compared to 45g? I never got a chance to try anything other than 45 and 55g

I actually enjoy using them, though with mixed feelings at times (I'm like that with every switch  :p ). You must be a good typist as it's easy enough to press an adjacent key. I daily stock MX Reds so I'm pretty used to being precise with my typing due to light switches.

One nice thing is that I get very little fatigue using it as your fingers can just float across it. I found 55g Topre way too heavy for anything but small bursts of typing, and 45g is generally my favorite switch overall. Contrary to what I had read, the 30g don't feel quite linear and have enough of an elongated hump to make it a bit less prone to accidental keystrokes.
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Offline rxc92

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #11 on: Sat, 13 July 2019, 04:12:06 »
 
Sorry for OT, but how do you like your 30g domes compared to 45g? I never got a chance to try anything other than 45 and 55g

I actually enjoy using them, though with mixed feelings at times (I'm like that with every switch  :p ). You must be a good typist as it's easy enough to press an adjacent key. I daily stock MX Reds so I'm pretty used to being precise with my typing due to light switches.

One nice thing is that I get very little fatigue using it as your fingers can just float across it. I found 55g Topre way too heavy for anything but small bursts of typing, and 45g is generally my favorite switch overall. Contrary to what I had read, the 30g don't feel quite linear and have enough of an elongated hump to make it a bit less prone to accidental keystrokes.
 
 
That's pretty cool to hear! I usually hear people disparaging the lighter switches, but as a heavy typist myself, I found myself liking mostly lighter switches too. I bought a board with MX Greens once and returned those within a week, haha.

Offline knightjp

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 14 July 2019, 06:19:12 »

Personally, I feel like Dvorak is easier to type with than Qwerty. I also suspect that it is easier to type with than Colemak.

From my 2 years with Colemak, I noticed this too. I found that I gained more speed and faster results with Dvorak than with Colemak. I guess it was the hand alteration. It was far more comfortable for me than Colemak.

With regards to the shortcuts, Dvorak is simply no picnic and if you are used to it on QWERTY, then you're not going to enjoy yourself very well on Dvorak.
My trick with the shortcuts on Dvorak was to use my left hand. If you look at the Dvorak layout, ZXCV are shifted to the right. It makes sense to move the mouse to the left and use the right hand; but I noticed that it puts my hand in an awkward position if I have to use Windows. On MacOS it is fine.
So my trick is to still use my left hand.. I use the mouse with my right hand. On Windows put my thumb on the right CTRL and use my pinky and my ring finger for the various letters. It is quite comfortable.
Anyone using Dvorak, rather than shifting mice to the left, etc. I would ask that you try this first.
« Last Edit: Sun, 14 July 2019, 06:24:15 by knightjp »

Offline rxc92

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 14 July 2019, 07:25:06 »

Personally, I feel like Dvorak is easier to type with than Qwerty. I also suspect that it is easier to type with than Colemak.

From my 2 years with Colemak, I noticed this too. I found that I gained more speed and faster results with Dvorak than with Colemak. I guess it was the hand alteration. It was far more comfortable for me than Colemak.

With regards to the shortcuts, Dvorak is simply no picnic and if you are used to it on QWERTY, then you're not going to enjoy yourself very well on Dvorak.
My trick with the shortcuts on Dvorak was to use my left hand. If you look at the Dvorak layout, ZXCV are shifted to the right. It makes sense to move the mouse to the left and use the right hand; but I noticed that it puts my hand in an awkward position if I have to use Windows. On MacOS it is fine.
So my trick is to still use my left hand.. I use the mouse with my right hand. On Windows put my thumb on the right CTRL and use my pinky and my ring finger for the various letters. It is quite comfortable.
Anyone using Dvorak, rather than shifting mice to the left, etc. I would ask that you try this first.
 
 
Don't get me started on how many damn times I've closed an important tab when I was trying to paste something..

Offline knightjp

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 15 July 2019, 02:59:35 »
Don't get me started on how many damn times I've closed an important tab when I was trying to paste something..
I admit that did happen to me a couple of times when I was using Dvorak, but not only a couple of times. I didn't happen often enough for me to call it a issue for me.
I guess each one has a different idea. I will say that if I was using Dvorak and I had a Kinesis Advantage, then I would definitely choose to use the mouse on the left. With a standard keyboard, the mouse on the right is the way to go and using my thumb / pinky for shortcuts.
That is what I do for CTRL + P on QWERTY for printing at the office. Its comfortable.


Offline knightjp

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #15 on: Thu, 01 August 2019, 02:18:08 »
I've thought about switching to Dvorak or Colemak but it's just such a hassle since I have so many keyboards and laptops, and they're all somewhat shared with my wife who is not going to switch with me.
If I'm just taking my time when typing, I'm averaging about 90 WPM and I can get 120+ if I'm just typing text, which isn't too often since I'm a developer.
I want to try Dvorak and Colemak to see if I can type faster consistently.
My speeds are never over the 30 - 40 WPM mark. How did you get that fast on QWERTY?
From my time with Dvorak and Colemak, I can't say for certain that you will be faster. I know that on Dvorak I felt it was faster as I kept making less mistakes. I also felt that it was much, much more comfortable. It was that way on Colemak too, but my 2 years with Colemak, I still was at the 40 WPM mark. I don't know how fast I was on Dvorak.

Offline shadowku

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #16 on: Thu, 01 August 2019, 13:52:37 »
My speeds are never over the 30 - 40 WPM mark. How did you get that fast on QWERTY?
From my time with Dvorak and Colemak, I can't say for certain that you will be faster. I know that on Dvorak I felt it was faster as I kept making less mistakes. I also felt that it was much, much more comfortable. It was that way on Colemak too, but my 2 years with Colemak, I still was at the 40 WPM mark. I don't know how fast I was on Dvorak.

Are you touch-typing?

I've been touch-typing since elementary school when everyone in school would spend their evenings on MSN Messenger so typing fast became a necessity to communicate fast enough.
When I started typing more, I forced myself to follow what they taught in my school's typing classes, where you want to keep your fingers resting on the home row with index fingers resting on F and J. I break some of the recommend conventions, for example, I actually use my left-hand for Y when it should be my right hand. I also don't use the right-shift at all. But following Home-row has made it easy to type fast.

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Offline rxc92

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #17 on: Fri, 02 August 2019, 15:44:34 »
Homerow-based typing is pointless on QWERTY anyways, the high frequenty keys are on the top row. All the fastest QWERTY typists have their own different ways of positioning their hands (especilaly Wrona, he does some crazy things); I don't even see the point in learning home-row based typing on a deliberately inferior layout.

Offline shadowku

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #18 on: Fri, 02 August 2019, 17:10:28 »
It might be, but itís better to use home row than to peck. Whatever gets you to use al your fingers.
Iím curious now, I never thought to explore other positions but Iíve wondered how to push my average on QWERTY to 150. I can only do that in spurts right now. Iím more interested in that than to try DVORAK or COLEMAK.

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Offline rxc92

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #19 on: Fri, 02 August 2019, 22:59:09 »
It might be, but itís better to use home row than to peck. Whatever gets you to use al your fingers.
Iím curious now, I never thought to explore other positions but Iíve wondered how to push my average on QWERTY to 150. I can only do that in spurts right now. Iím more interested in that than to try DVORAK or COLEMAK.
 
 
It might make the difference. I could hardly break 80 on QWERTY, but have hit over 200 in bursts on Dvorak.

Offline knightjp

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #20 on: Tue, 03 September 2019, 01:05:42 »
Homerow-based typing is pointless on QWERTY anyways, the high frequenty keys are on the top row. All the fastest QWERTY typists have their own different ways of positioning their hands (especilaly Wrona, he does some crazy things); I don't even see the point in learning home-row based typing on a deliberately inferior layout.

It might be, but itís better to use home row than to peck. Whatever gets you to use al your fingers.
Iím curious now, I never thought to explore other positions but Iíve wondered how to push my average on QWERTY to 150. I can only do that in spurts right now. Iím more interested in that than to try DVORAK or COLEMAK.

While it is one of the best sites for practicing typing, I'm not understand what why they name it - 10fastfingers.com
I don't use all 10 fast fingers when I type. Only 9.   :rolleyes:

I've moved over to Dvorak for about a week now and I'm amazed at how fast my fingers got accustomed to the layout. It is like I never stopped using it. I am making the same amount of mistakes that I make in QWERTY and I'm about the same speed already. What I can say is that it feels so much more comfortable and I can easily type better.
However I do notice that the home row typing doesn't translate well to my Bastron keyboard really. And my right hand does tend to get bit more tired than usual; possibly because it has been said that Dvorak is a more right hand biased layout. Not so great if you're a lefty like me. However that I do know of a left handed person who has happily been using Dvorak for a long time.  :thumb:

I will say that since it has been only a week with Dvorak, I will give it a fair shot. So far it seems to be going pertty well. I am able to know where the keys are without even looking a t the keyboard. I can even close my eyes and type and I see that I have done a full sentence without even a single mistake. How does that work?
« Last Edit: Tue, 03 September 2019, 01:11:43 by knightjp »

Offline superbia

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #21 on: Tue, 03 September 2019, 04:57:27 »
QWERTY := 1873 (engineered 146 years ago) (Remington)

DVORAK := 1936 (engineered 83 years ago) (prof. Dvorak after 18 years of study and research)

COLEMAK := 2006 (engineered 13 years ago) (a programmer named Shai Coleman released an alternative keyboard layout called Colemak (a portmanteau of Coleman and Dvorak). Despite the name, it isnít a direct descendant of the Dvorak layout. In fact, Colemak can be thought of as a compromise between the two.

Colemak Mod-DH (rev 2) := 2017 (engineered 2 year ago) ("Curl-DH" ergo mod is a minor modification to the Colemak keyboard layout, designed to make typing more comfortable by making an adjustment to the placement of a small number of keys, in order to gain a significant improvement in ergonomics and comfort.)

There are many Colemak variants, and I've tried several, and I'd recommend the latest and greatest Mod-DH (rev 2). I did not try Dvorak (and I don't plan to), but if you sometimes have to type on QWERTY keyboards you will appreciate the fact that you can easily revert from any Colemak to QWERTY.
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Offline knightjp

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #22 on: Tue, 03 September 2019, 09:10:43 »
I've used Colemak for 2 years or so. Don't much care for it. I prefer the movement of Dvorak over the finger-rolling action of Colemak. I've noticed that my fingers feel cramped when using Colemak. Not so much with Dvorak and to be honest, I find Dvorak much more easier to get to grips with than Colemak. Besides, the one thing that I do like about Dvorak is that it is a standard option on all the operating systems. This is something that I find appealing.

« Last Edit: Tue, 03 September 2019, 09:12:47 by knightjp »

Offline superbia

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #23 on: Tue, 03 September 2019, 14:27:13 »
I've used Colemak for 2 years or so. Don't much care for it. I prefer the movement of Dvorak over the finger-rolling action of Colemak. I've noticed that my fingers feel cramped when using Colemak. Not so much with Dvorak and to be honest, I find Dvorak much more easier to get to grips with than Colemak. Besides, the one thing that I do like about Dvorak is that it is a standard option on all the operating systems. This is something that I find appealing.

That is a huge benifit of Dvorak since to run Colemak Mod-DH you need either your own keyboards or computers.
Everything is a compromise, I too found stock Colemak "cramped", and then some good people told me about updated Colemak variants.
I don't usually code much at other people's computers/keyboards but when I do I just run them with QWERTY, and when I get back to my keyboards/laptops everything just runs Mod-DH.
Keebio Iris 2.8 (Alps) X Colemak Mod-DH

Offline knightjp

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #24 on: Wed, 04 September 2019, 01:41:15 »
That is a huge benifit of Dvorak since to run Colemak Mod-DH you need either your own keyboards or computers.
Everything is a compromise, I too found stock Colemak "cramped", and then some good people told me about updated Colemak variants.
I don't usually code much at other people's computers/keyboards but when I do I just run them with QWERTY, and when I get back to my keyboards/laptops everything just runs Mod-DH.
What Operating system do you use?
I know that stock Colemak is available on FreeBSD, Linux distro and MacOS. But it is never an option on Windows. Which is why Dvorak is appealing because it is there on everything.

The thing with keyboard layouts is that it is a never ending cycle. I'm sure any number of people will find even things wrong with Mod-DH and seek to improve on it, even if the improvement will be only less than 2%.
It has been famously known that on all these modern alternative layouts, the improvement over stock "QWERTY" is only about 5 - 10%.

I came across this article again and has me thinking whether the effort with Dvorak is actually worth it.

https://www.allthingsergo.com/colemak-dvorak/

Offline rxc92

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #25 on: Wed, 04 September 2019, 04:13:46 »
There are many clearly flawed statements like 'Dvorak/Colemak only offer 5-10% improvement' when people attempt to justify not changing to something much better for their hands. The fact is that there are many areas of improvement, with the most significant being reduction in hand travel distance (by over a factor of 10x in Dvorak vs QWERTY), hand alternation, right-hand favoring (44-56 for L-R rather than 56-44 L-R, which is beneficial to 85-90% of people), homerow/upper row usage as opposed to bottom row, and other factors that I'm rusty on. You can easily cherry pick the worst possible statistic, in which case Dvorak/Colemak will still invariable be superior.
 
The article is absolute rubbish. No research, just blanket statements like 'ergonomics isn't about the actual best and most optimal, it's about what works for you!'. Stuff like that should be an obvious red flag, which I'm surprised you didn't spot. About half or more of the article was the author self-congratulating himself on his apparently 'high wpm of 80' that is at best laughable. 

It has been famously known that on all these modern alternative layouts, the improvement over stock "QWERTY" is only about 5 - 10%.
 
 
Would you like to source that rather than claiming it's 'famously known'? I've learnt quite a bit about layout differences and you're the first person to claim this, let alone it being 'famously known'. Otherwise, that's almost offensively ignorant.

Offline cj133

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #26 on: Wed, 04 September 2019, 15:16:19 »
I had considered changing layouts back in the 90s, but I don't like change so it never happened and here I am still using QWERTY.

When I was younger I could do 128WPM consistently with few errors but only on a model M keyboard.  That's what I learned on and because I hate change, that's primarily what I stuck with.
These days, due to arthritis etc I'm down around 90 WPM. 

I never took typing classes and I do not type the way you're "supposed to".  I do what works for me.



Offline Symbiote

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #27 on: Sat, 07 September 2019, 16:22:44 »
I've used Dvorak for 14 years.

- 99% of the time, I use Qwerty-layout keys. I'm only now considering putting Dvorak-labelled keys on my work keyboard, mostly so a colleague can reach over and press "X" when we're talking at my desk. And to look a bit weird.

- When learning, don't look at the keys! Don't rearrange them, either, or you'll be tempted to look. You need the nubs on F and J (which become U and H). Print out the Dvorak layout to fill half a sheet of paper (landscape). Fold it into a tent, put it between keyboard and monitor, and look at that instead. Otherwise, you're always moving your hands away from the keyboard, so you don't learn the key locations by touch and relative position from U and H.

- When using a control key, type it with the opposite hand.  Capital A (on either layout, it's in the same place) should be typed with the right shift.  Control+M should use left control.

- (Using the mouse in combination with typing ^X, ^C, ^V with two hands is why some people prefer Colevrak, which doesn't move these keys. I think people here have a better fix: program your keyboard with cut-copy-paste macro keys, if you use them a lot while mousing. If you don't use the mouse much while working with text, this isn't a problem anyway.)

- The Dvorak layout is available on Linux, Mac and Windows.  On all three OSs, you can switch between e.g. Qwerty and Dvorak with a keyboard shortcut -- the default on Windows is to press Ctrl+Shift.  I have Dvorak enabled (obviously not by default) on a shared Windows computer at work in the conference room, and no-one has noticed yet.

- It's all about the comfort! Speed is secondary. Unless your job is a data entry clerk or secretary, the 100, 120WPM+ speeds really aren't a huge benefit. Save your wrists!


Offline Altis

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #28 on: Sat, 07 September 2019, 16:45:58 »
- It's all about the comfort! Speed is secondary. Unless your job is a data entry clerk or secretary, the 100, 120WPM+ speeds really aren't a huge benefit. Save your wrists!

This is a good point. I find generally my typing speed far exceeds my ability to think about what I need to type, anyways. :p

Having said that, I doubt I'll ever be bothered to change layouts. It could be fun to try, though.
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Offline superbia

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #29 on: Sat, 07 September 2019, 16:56:43 »
I've used Dvorak for 14 years.

I feel sorry for you brother.
One day I wish to learn a useful Dvorak variant just so I get the right to trash-talk Dvorak into oblivion  :thumb:

Jokes aside most of programmers I know type Dvorak...
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Offline knightjp

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #30 on: Mon, 09 September 2019, 01:09:10 »
I've used Dvorak for 14 years.
- (Using the mouse in combination with typing ^X, ^C, ^V with two hands is why some people prefer Colevrak, which doesn't move these keys. I think people here have a better fix: program your keyboard with cut-copy-paste macro keys, if you use them a lot while mousing. If you don't use the mouse much while working with text, this isn't a problem anyway.)
The one great thing about MacOS is that it has the Dvorak with QWERTY Cmd. That leaves the keyboard back to QWERTY when the command key in implemented and makes it a whole lot easier for shortcuts. However there is an issue when you have to move to another platform that doesn't have it like Windows. I found my own tricks though with shortcuts though.

- It's all about the comfort! Speed is secondary. Unless your job is a data entry clerk or secretary, the 100, 120WPM+ speeds really aren't a huge benefit. Save your wrists!
I agree with the comfort part. However when it comes to the wrist, I fail to see how it is saved unless you use an ergonomic keyboard. The standard keyboard by design is not ideal and not good for your wrist, regardless of the layout. But I do feel more easier and comfortable not moving my fingers around so much like with QWERTY.

I feel sorry for you brother.
One day I wish to learn a useful Dvorak variant just so I get the right to trash-talk Dvorak into oblivion  :thumb:

Jokes aside most of programmers I know type Dvorak...

I didn't start this thread to trash talk about any keyboard layout or those who use them. I'm pretty sure that there are a number of users that are happily typing away on QWERTY layouts with speeds over 200WPM. And unless you're able to beat them with Colemak, I don't think that it gives you the right to trash talk any keyboard layout.

My own personal experience with Colemak was good but not great. It took me 2 years to be able to get good with the layout (my own personal flaws, I admit). Secondly after a while of typing, my arms would start to ache and my fingers felt cramped.
By contrast, I was able to get to grips with Dvorak within a month for the 1st time using it; within a week this time. And my fingers feel really comfortable as a bonus. :thumb:


Offline Saga

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #31 on: Fri, 20 September 2019, 18:56:30 »
I can dig up the studies but essentially every single study ever done on alternative typing systems has concluded that the time would be better spent actively learning to increase your typing speed with QWERTY. There's been no research whatsoever that shows that alternative layouts are meaningfully faster. It's all pure personal preference, but if you're switching for speed you're making a mistake.

Offline rxc92

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #32 on: Sat, 21 September 2019, 08:01:08 »
I can dig up the studies but essentially every single study ever done on alternative typing systems has concluded that the time would be better spent actively learning to increase your typing speed with QWERTY. There's been no research whatsoever that shows that alternative layouts are meaningfully faster. It's all pure personal preference, but if you're switching for speed you're making a mistake.
 
 
Please dig up any peer-reviewed studies to support these wild claims. I've never seen any cited, it's always the 'common knowledge' excuse.

Offline Stupidface

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #33 on: Sun, 22 September 2019, 03:06:17 »
I've moved over to Dvorak for about a week now and I'm amazed at how fast my fingers got accustomed to the layout. It is like I never stopped using it.

Have you experienced difficulties switching between Dvorak and QWERTY layouts at short notice e.g. being asked of a sudden to type something on a colleague's QWERTY keyboard after you have been typing Dvorak for hours?  Or are you able to transition from one to the other after giving yourself only a minute or two for the different muscle memory to take effect?

I ask because I am interested in how much effort might be involved in making an impromptu switch between different keyboard layouts.

Offline rxc92

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #34 on: Sun, 22 September 2019, 10:33:58 »
Itís not difficult to instantly switch between the two, though my tough tying on QWERTY is not as good as it was. The legends are very helpful also.

Offline thebilgerat

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #35 on: Wed, 25 September 2019, 18:28:25 »
Have you looked into Colemak?


THIS.  always.

Offline thebilgerat

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #36 on: Wed, 25 September 2019, 18:29:39 »
I've used Colemak for 2 years or so. Don't much care for it. I prefer the movement of Dvorak over the finger-rolling action of Colemak. I've noticed that my fingers feel cramped when using Colemak. Not so much with Dvorak and to be honest, I find Dvorak much more easier to get to grips with than Colemak. Besides, the one thing that I do like about Dvorak is that it is a standard option on all the operating systems. This is something that I find appealing.


Colemak was designed to evenly distribute work over both hands and also to make metakey use for programmers reasonable.

Offline Polymer

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #37 on: Thu, 26 September 2019, 04:40:31 »
- It's all about the comfort! Speed is secondary. Unless your job is a data entry clerk or secretary, the 100, 120WPM+ speeds really aren't a huge benefit. Save your wrists!

This is a good point. I find generally my typing speed far exceeds my ability to think about what I need to type, anyways. :p

Having said that, I doubt I'll ever be bothered to change layouts. It could be fun to try, though.

Unless your job is to copy information or you're typing a huge amount as the primary part of your job....100+WPM is about as fast as you're going to need to write messages, even create documents, etc...mainly because you're having to think about what you're writing.  For me, the whole reason I never went to any of the more efficient layouts was because even if I could type faster, the benefit would be minimal....I'm happy with my current speed as far as how that translates into everyday keyboard use.  Whereas if it was too slow (such as my typing speed on a phone), it is incredibly frustrating because I can't keep up with what I'm trying to say...

I will say, if you're in the 30-40 WPM range, something isn't right and before you even consider trying a new layout, you have to commit to touch typing (as in not looking at the keyboard) and using somewhat proper form...or else you blow out most of why you're changing layouts to begin with... Hen peckers using one finger on each side and looking at the keyboard can do 35wpm...that can't be your goal...


Offline Saga

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #38 on: Fri, 27 September 2019, 13:04:05 »
I can dig up the studies but essentially every single study ever done on alternative typing systems has concluded that the time would be better spent actively learning to increase your typing speed with QWERTY. There's been no research whatsoever that shows that alternative layouts are meaningfully faster. It's all pure personal preference, but if you're switching for speed you're making a mistake.
 
 
Please dig up any peer-reviewed studies to support these wild claims. I've never seen any cited, it's always the 'common knowledge' excuse.

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1069950

Offline rxc92

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #39 on: Fri, 27 September 2019, 13:47:54 »
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1069950
 
That is not a study, it is a meta-analysis. A meta-analysis (by economists to boot, not scientists or researchers) using flawed, non-peer reviewed 'historical records' is meaningless as it does no research of its own and simply compiles data. 
It's unbelievable that they also use typing competitions as some sort of metric; the fastest typist of all time was a Dvorak typist, but the merits of Dvorak are (in the modern day) not touted to be speed but ergonomics. 
Here's a compiled list of computer-compiled typing statistics http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?dvorak   
Another more detailed one https://workmanlayout.org/#key-usage-visualization
Hand alternation, hand preference, movement distance, balance of finger usage are all inferior in every regard in QWERTY compared to any alternative layout; finger travel is nearly double, there's a >55% preference for left hand (great if you're left handed! Not so much for the rest of us), awful row and finger balance by placing commonly used keys in the same column or random rows. 
 
It's an inarguable fact that it's by far the worst thing you could do to your fingers to continue using QWERTY. Some people don't do much typing and can get away with it, others such as myself cannot.

Offline Polymer

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #40 on: Sat, 28 September 2019, 01:59:20 »
It's an inarguable fact that it's by far the worst thing you could do to your fingers to continue using QWERTY. Some people don't do much typing and can get away with it, others such as myself cannot.

Seriously that's a pretty poorly worded statement...or completely ignorant.

I can think of quite a number of things worse than using QWERTY on a keyboard...

Pertaining JUST to typing...Yes, QWERTY is far from perfect...but it isn't problematic for a vast majority of people because the reality is, most people's job is not to peck away at a keyboard for 8 hours a day straight.  IF that is your job then yes, you may want to consider a change...But equally there are other things ergonomically that will make as much if not more of a difference to preventing injury...

Offline Saga

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #41 on: Mon, 30 September 2019, 19:59:02 »
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1069950
 
words

Nobody is denying path distance is different in alternative typing systems. Plenty of people are arguing that that is a fairly meaningless goal or criteria. It seems a little bit like Spinal Tap's "It goes to 11". It's better because a carefully chosen statistic is better, but nobody seems to be able to follow that through to real+world improvement in typing speed. Path distance doesn't account for time retraining, for example.

Offline rxc92

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #42 on: Mon, 30 September 2019, 21:22:33 »
words
 
 
I mean do you have any studies indicating it's slower? About all we can definitively say is that the fastest typist was a Dvorak typist, which should be statistically improbably given how few there are compared to QWERTY typists. That was never the point of this thread though, and it's mind-boggling how people messing up their own hands insist on defending a terrible layout. It's extremely nonsensical thing to do, especially when the only thing you've ever done in this thread is make a wild (wrong) claim that was debunked and then immediately move the goalposts.

Offline mizzoperator

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #43 on: Tue, 01 October 2019, 13:15:38 »
In my experience, layouts like DVORAK just do not work for me, full stop.
It's probably because I'm stubborn, but I can't say I would recommend it unless you have a lot of free time and you can get your memories of the QWERTY layout erased from your brain somehow.
Overall, it seems more like a meme to me, but I can see how it would improve typing speed by a considerable amount in THEORY.
Don't let that discourage you from trying it, though.
Linears are for linear people. No offense if you use linears.
I prefer tactile switches, I'm reluctantly using the AULA SI-859 and my pronouns are she/her.

Offline Saga

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #44 on: Tue, 01 October 2019, 16:17:02 »
words
 
 
I mean do you have any studies indicating it's slower?

I'm genuinely trying to track down the one I read that showed not that it was slower, but that any gains may be secondary to a dedicated period of trying to improve typing speed in a layout you already know.

Offline superbia

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #45 on: Wed, 02 October 2019, 10:21:53 »
There's still plenty of reasons to praise QWERTY in 2020:

1) You want to be mainstream (whatever that means)
2) You don't type enough on your keyboard
3) You don't touch-type
4) You are a PRO gamer (you need to use standardized equipment)
5) You have invested into traditional keyboards (non-ergo, non-split) and plan to move them (sell them) in the future
6) You have invested into keycaps with QWERTY legends and plan to move them (sell them) in the future
7) Your job demands the use of QWERTY (or your job is to make something related to it)

Nobody dares to ask longtime Dvorak/Colemak users if they would ever voluntarily consider downgrading to QWERTY?
I dare you to find someone who will anwser yes.
Keebio Iris 2.8 (Alps) X Colemak Mod-DH

Offline mizzoperator

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #46 on: Wed, 02 October 2019, 10:36:08 »
There's still plenty of reasons to praise QWERTY in 2020:

1) You want to be mainstream (whatever that means)
2) You don't type enough on your keyboard
3) You don't touch-type
4) You are a PRO gamer (you need to use standardized equipment)
5) You have invested into traditional keyboards (non-ergo, non-split) and plan to move them (sell them) in the future
6) You have invested into keycaps with QWERTY legends and plan to move them (sell them) in the future
7) Your job demands the use of QWERTY (or your job is to make something related to it)

Nobody dares to ask longtime Dvorak/Colemak users if they would ever voluntarily consider downgrading to QWERTY?
I dare you to find someone who will anwser yes.

IMO, QWERTY is just convenient. It happens to be the layout that's on, like, every conventional keyboard ever.
I can touch-type fine with QWERTY, although I'm sure I could learn to touch-type DVORAK if I wanted to give the effort.
Really, I just don't want to have to lug around an HHKB (or god forbid a Planck, anything with blank caps really) just so I could type in DVORAK.
Linears are for linear people. No offense if you use linears.
I prefer tactile switches, I'm reluctantly using the AULA SI-859 and my pronouns are she/her.

Offline rxc92

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #47 on: Wed, 02 October 2019, 13:14:46 »
Really, I just don't want to have to lug around an HHKB (or god forbid a Planck, anything with blank caps really) just so I could type in DVORAK.
 
 
Why would you have to lug around anything? Dvorak comes standard on every single major OS (Windows/Mac/Linux) and takes less than 30 seconds to make the default layout. Also, 'Dvorak' shouldn't be capitalized as it's a name, unlike QWERTY.

Offline mizzoperator

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #48 on: Wed, 02 October 2019, 13:23:26 »
Why would you have to lug around anything? Dvorak comes standard on every single major OS (Windows/Mac/Linux) and takes less than 30 seconds to make the default layout. Also, 'Dvorak' shouldn't be capitalized as it's a name, unlike QWERTY.

Aye, fair enough. Thanks for letting me know about the naming convention.
I think for me, it's just the fact that pretty much all keyboards already have QWERTY legends scribbled into the keycaps with a sharpie from the factory.

A KB with blank keycaps would be the best for typing using Dvorak because even though I touch-type just fine without having to look at the keyboard,
my brain would still short itself and automatically switch back to typing with QWERTY if I ever tried to look at the keyboard if it still had QWERTY legends.

That's just a personal problem, one that would be solved fairly quickly with either blank or relegendable keycaps.
The second biggest problem is that I'm really lazy, which is also a personal thing.
Linears are for linear people. No offense if you use linears.
I prefer tactile switches, I'm reluctantly using the AULA SI-859 and my pronouns are she/her.

Offline superbia

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #49 on: Wed, 02 October 2019, 14:10:10 »
Why would you have to lug around anything? Dvorak comes standard on every single major OS (Windows/Mac/Linux) and takes less than 30 seconds to make the default layout.

Imho, switching layouts is a massive pita. I'd rather lug around a programmable 60% (or something)  :thumb:
Keebio Iris 2.8 (Alps) X Colemak Mod-DH

Offline mizzoperator

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #50 on: Wed, 02 October 2019, 14:15:11 »
Imho, switching layouts is a massive pita. I'd rather lug around a programmable 60% (or something)  :thumb:

Yum yum, I love flatbread.
Yeah, though, it'd be easier to lug around a programmable 60% rather than change the layout of your keyboard to Dvorak when you come in and back to QWERTY when you leave every single time you come to work everyday.
Sure, it doesn't take long, but it begins to grind on you every day. Additionally, if you're forgetful like me and accidentally leave it on Dvorak, somebody is going to yell at you (especially if your company employs Hoteling in their cubicles).
Linears are for linear people. No offense if you use linears.
I prefer tactile switches, I'm reluctantly using the AULA SI-859 and my pronouns are she/her.

Offline superbia

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #51 on: Wed, 02 October 2019, 14:26:32 »
Yum yum, I love flatbread.
Yeah, though, it'd be easier to lug around a programmable 60% rather than change the layout of your keyboard to Dvorak when you come in and back to QWERTY when you leave every single time you come to work everyday.
Sure, it doesn't take long, but it begins to grind on you every day. Additionally, if you're forgetful like me and accidentally leave it on Dvorak, somebody is going to yell at you (especially if your company employs Hoteling in their cubicles).

In that case, a lots of people have dedicated work keyboards (that stay at work), just so they don't have to "lug".

P.S. There's even a tiny USB-USB converter which you can use to convert any (cheap) keyboard into anything your hearth desires (if you don't feel comfy leaving your $$$ keyboard at work).
Keebio Iris 2.8 (Alps) X Colemak Mod-DH

Offline Saga

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #52 on: Thu, 03 October 2019, 16:45:43 »
Nobody dares to ask longtime Dvorak/Colemak users if they would ever voluntarily consider downgrading to QWERTY?
I dare you to find someone who will anwser yes.

People really into homeopathy generally don't want to let it go, either.

Offline superbia

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #53 on: Fri, 04 October 2019, 03:40:41 »
Nobody dares to ask longtime Dvorak/Colemak users if they would ever voluntarily consider downgrading to QWERTY?
I dare you to find someone who will anwser yes.

People really into homeopathy generally don't want to let it go, either.

What I don't like is that there's more discouragement than encouragement when people want to learn/try/use new things.
Do you think you are better than us? Do you think you are smarter than us? Translate https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jantelagen
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Offline rxc92

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #54 on: Fri, 04 October 2019, 04:44:00 »
Nobody dares to ask longtime Dvorak/Colemak users if they would ever voluntarily consider downgrading to QWERTY?
I dare you to find someone who will anwser yes.

People really into homeopathy generally don't want to let it go, either.

What I don't like is that there's more discouragement than encouragement when people want to learn/try/use new things.
Do you think you are better than us? Do you think you are smarter than us? Translate https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jantelagen
 
 
At first I thought he was trying to have a reasonable discussion, but it's become pretty clear that he's just an idiot who wants to feel superior to people who put in more effort and are better than him.

Offline superbia

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #55 on: Fri, 04 October 2019, 06:03:21 »
At first I thought he was trying to have a reasonable discussion, but it's become pretty clear that he's just an idiot who wants to feel superior to people who put in more effort and are better than him.

100% true.
Keebio Iris 2.8 (Alps) X Colemak Mod-DH

Offline Saga

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #56 on: Fri, 04 October 2019, 13:54:27 »
Nobody dares to ask longtime Dvorak/Colemak users if they would ever voluntarily consider downgrading to QWERTY?
I dare you to find someone who will anwser yes.

People really into homeopathy generally don't want to let it go, either.

What I don't like is that there's more discouragement than encouragement when people want to learn/try/use new things.
Do you think you are better than us? Do you think you are smarter than us? Translate https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jantelagen
 
 
At first I thought he was trying to have a reasonable discussion, but it's become pretty clear that he's just an idiot who wants to feel superior to people who put in more effort and are better than him.

Honestly a pretty hash and unfair characterization. I think itís completely fine if people want to use any layout they choose, but thereís a lot of people who genuinely believe that switching layouts is objectively faster for typing speed, which is really not backed up by too much evidence at this point; at most studies show a 5% boost to typing speed, which comes with a lot of downsides. People should do whatever they want but it's unfair to pretend that the efficiency boost from Dvorak is more than placebo in most cases.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/001872088202400502
« Last Edit: Fri, 04 October 2019, 14:05:18 by Saga »

Offline Polymer

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #57 on: Mon, 07 October 2019, 16:14:59 »
The study is flawed for a number of reasons...although I do agree with some of what you're saying..

Someone that is typing 75WPM having switched to Dvorak, could have gotten there with QWERTY because honestly, 75 WPM, while very sufficient for many, is not that fast...so that person, while they may believe Dvorak is what got them there, the result is pretty ordinary, enough to where I wouldn't give credit to the layout, more so just the fact that the person needed to practice and were likely forced to practice properly...or used the opportunity to...

Someone that is typing 120+WPM on QWERTY....there is going to be a limit on how fast they can go..and part of that limit is the inefficiency of QWERTY as a layout...and I have no doubt that if you want to get much faster than that, a layout change that is more efficient will help get you there...

That doesn't mean people shouldn't learn something like Dvorak..although I'm not sure I would recommend that from the start just because of the standard of QWERTY.   The reality is, even if you learn Dvorak, you will need to learn QWERTY..as you will, at some point, be forced to use it even if you don't want to, maybe not for long but enough....But I also think that is something you can eventually switch back and forth with so that shouldn't be a problem...

I do agree that I don't understand why people are bashing people that want to learn a new layout..I think its great and there isn't anything wrong with that....but I also agree that for many, the gains they've had aren't necessarily because of the layout..

Offline Saga

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #58 on: Mon, 07 October 2019, 20:20:18 »
The study is flawed for a number of reasons...

As a publishing researcher I firmly disagree with statements like this presented without qualification.

The idea that DVORAK is faster doesn't really hold water for a multitude of reasons, not the least of which is the goal of minimizing travel time isn't the end-all, be-all of optimization, and things like clustering for travel matter a fair bit as well.

If people want to use DVORAK, more power to them, but there's not much evidence to back up the core claims.

Offline rxc92

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #59 on: Mon, 07 October 2019, 22:21:06 »
The study is flawed for a number of reasons...

As a publishing researcher I firmly disagree with statements like this presented without qualification.

The idea that DVORAK is faster doesn't really hold water for a multitude of reasons, not the least of which is the goal of minimizing travel time isn't the end-all, be-all of optimization, and things like clustering for travel matter a fair bit as well.

If people want to use DVORAK, more power to them, but there's not much evidence to back up the core claims.
 
 
Why does it offend you so much when someone points at clear evidence of something and you still rail on and on and on about it? Do you not realize how meaningless this entire discussion is and how asinine you are being? Give it a rest, every single person in this is tired of responding to your nonstop threadcrapping. You're wrong and making ten posts flaming other people isn't going to change that.

Offline Saga

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #60 on: Mon, 07 October 2019, 23:03:48 »
Jesus dude, step back from the keyboard a bit.

Itís fine to like something because you like it. Thatís a good enough reason, it doesnít need to be objectively better to be what you prefer. The notion that there is clear evidence that Dvorak is superior for typists is simply not substantiated. If itís more comfortable for you, then great! That sounds like as good of a reason as any to use it. The OP deserved a fair, data-backed response, and if that personally offends you then sorry, maybe donít read what I say?

Also, Iím done replying to you, but Iíll continue replying to others who reply to me regardless of your overly abusive behaviour.

Edit: your definition of ďflamingĒ is baffling
« Last Edit: Mon, 07 October 2019, 23:09:15 by Saga »

Offline Polymer

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #61 on: Tue, 08 October 2019, 03:46:38 »
The study is flawed for a number of reasons...

As a publishing researcher I firmly disagree with statements like this presented without qualification.

The idea that DVORAK is faster doesn't really hold water for a multitude of reasons, not the least of which is the goal of minimizing travel time isn't the end-all, be-all of optimization, and things like clustering for travel matter a fair bit as well.

If people want to use DVORAK, more power to them, but there's not much evidence to back up the core claims.

I don't care if you disagree with the statement..the original "study" is not a study..just a mish mash of trying to discredit other studies while accepting others..the problem with many of the studies quoted in the "study" is they themselves are flawed...They make associations when those associations aren't there.  The assumptions were flawed, the process was flawed and the analysis was flawed.

Efficiency isn't everything and as I said before, if you're in the 30-70WPM range, there is so much improvement that can be had in QWERTY because you're nowhere near where efficiency starts to play a part in what you're trying to achieve.  You're probably not using proper form if you're still in that range and certainly you have a long ways to go before the efficiency of the layout plays a part...You have flawed subjects where it would hardly matter what layout they're using and so the study itself is flawed at least as far as the potential for Dvorak...If you can't see how their studies are flawed and picked apart each one, then you're injecting your own bias. 

But once you get to into the 100s...the efficiency will allow you to go further because it becomes more and more difficult to move your fingers fast enough in an inefficient way...Minimizing movement and balancing across both hands gives you better efficiency and speed and fewer awkward combinations.   The words that slow you down the most when you get fast enough are the words that are inefficient to type.

As far as whether or not it is worthwhile training people on Dvorak or the cost to change standards makes sense, the answer is clear, it is not worth doing.  Only a fraction of people are typing fast enough with QWERTY where a new layout may take their speed to a new level...and only a fraction of those people, at that point, even care about looking at doing so. 

In case it isn't clear..
I'm agreeing with you that for most people, them going to Dvorak didn't make any difference at all..maybe they're typing faster but that could've easily been achieved with QWERTY.  Comparing going from 35WPM to 55WPM doesn't mean Dvorak is better..just means they spent more time working on it. 
I'm not agreeing with you about the potential of Dvorak...because the reality is, QWERTY is not efficient...and when you start reaching a certain speed, those inefficiencies become more obvious and that's were Dvorak will start helping out significantly more.  But I also think most people won't bother because going to this next step doesn't really benefit most people unless you have a job where that extra bit of speed..say going from 120WPM to 150WPM, nets you something significant. 

Offline mizzoperator

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #62 on: Tue, 08 October 2019, 08:03:00 »
Good god, guys. Calm down. It's just a typing layout.
It's all just a matter of preference at the end of the day.
Linears are for linear people. No offense if you use linears.
I prefer tactile switches, I'm reluctantly using the AULA SI-859 and my pronouns are she/her.

Offline Polymer

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #63 on: Tue, 08 October 2019, 23:28:43 »
I think that's part of the discussion..to some they think it is just a preference of layout...to others it is more than that and the efficiency can be significant...

There is a truth in both statements...

To be honest, I think both of those people arguing one side or the other ONLY have only half an argument..

Offline Stupidface

  • Posts: 39
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #64 on: Wed, 09 October 2019, 07:00:43 »
P.S. There's even a tiny USB-USB converter which you can use to convert any (cheap) keyboard into anything your hearth desires (if you don't feel comfy leaving your $$$ keyboard at work).

Can you please give the name of this device (or, better still, a link to a product page)?  It sounds potentially useful for anyone lacking the funds to purchase another keyboard.


Offline superbia

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #65 on: Fri, 11 October 2019, 06:42:34 »
P.S. There's even a tiny USB-USB converter which you can use to convert any (cheap) keyboard into anything your hearth desires (if you don't feel comfy leaving your $$$ keyboard at work).

Can you please give the name of this device (or, better still, a link to a product page)?  It sounds potentially useful for anyone lacking the funds to purchase another keyboard.

I can only promote software I've used, and it's the TMK.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=69169.0

If you don't want to buy an assembled one (price ballpark $50) you can build your own, or if you don't like TMK, feel free to dig on google, or dig on geekhack (I'm sure there are several decent alternatives).
Keebio Iris 2.8 (Alps) X Colemak Mod-DH

Offline knightjp

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #66 on: Wed, 13 November 2019, 02:38:08 »
Reading through the comments, I didn't want to start some kind of verbal war.
Dvorak will always have its followers and there will always be those who claim that any layout over QWERTY is a pointless exercise.

Currently I have switched to Dvorak. I am no longer thinking about it.
Now this thread isn't about which one is better. Clearly on the side of numbers, metrics, etc., Dvorak is clearly better than QWERTY; and Colemak will be better than Dvorak.
But numbers aren't the deciding factor. Like others have said, it is clearly a matter of preference.
I came across a couple of videos, that I thought I would share.





Should answer a couple of questions that were asked before about long term Dvorak users.

At the moment, I am plateau at 41WPM in Dvorak. About the same as I was on QWERTY. So I am not sure how it matters.

What got me started thinking about Dvorak:

  • I wanted to increase my speed. I got tired of being held up at 40 WPM or less on QWERTY. Yes I do touch type. I thought that Dvorak will be better as it is certainly more comfortable. I figured that something that is more comfortable would probably help my fingers move more easier across the keys.
  • The typing comfort would probably avoid developing RSI and stuff. I've always thought that prevention is better than cure. In the long run, I didn't want to wait to have issues before moving over to something more comfortable.

Having moved over I have noticed a few things.
  • I sort of feel that my fingers are getting a bit cramped of being on the home row so often. Maybe it is something just to get used to.
  • I kind of feel that my fingers move more freely to the QWERTY layout; albeit not as fluidly across the keys as with Dvorak. Again, this could just mean that I am not fully trained and ready with Dvorak just as yet.
  • I sometimes kind of type one handed, for instance whilst drinking a cup of coffee or choco. On Dvorak it isn't as easy with this because the keys are more dispersed in a latitudinal manner.

The main factor for me is that I don't want to develop RSI or anything else down the line. I pretty sure that I would like to give Dvorak a pretty good chance. The one reason why I moved away from Colemak was because typing long stints made my arms ache. I didn't face that with QWERTY. But on QWERTY I plateaued at 40WPM and after a couple of years it was clear I wasn't getting faster.

QWERTY has quite a few benefits in the sense that by being proficient on it, I am able to type on any system pretty quickly.
It didn't make my arms ache and in a way felt more comfortable for my fingers. I am not sure what to make of it as yet as I am still getting to grips with Dvorak. Time is too soon to say.


« Last Edit: Wed, 13 November 2019, 05:01:05 by knightjp »

Offline treeleaf64

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #67 on: Tue, 19 November 2019, 21:20:58 »
I've been thinking of switching to Dvorak for quite a while though. I have been using QWERTY for a while now. I've noticed that for me, coming back to QWERTY is not that bad as I believe that the layout is so imprinted in my brain, my fingers already know where each letter is.
And I think that for those who choose to use an alternative layout and still keep the keys in the standard layout, this will be the case. The image of QWERTY is just imprinted in the brain because every time you look at your keyboard, that is what you see.

However I've noticed that I'm not making much improvement with QWERTY anymore. While others are getting over 70 WPM, I'm just barely scratching 35 WPM. Its slow. Too slow to be taken seriously.

I noticed that I was far more comfortable and a bit faster when using Dvorak. However I switched to QWERTY because I wanted to be able to type fast on anything without getting too hung up on layouts.

At first, you may notice a huge slowdown in your typing speed. This is perfectly normal, I had this when learning qwerty.

To get as fast as me it takes Years of practice . I practiced every day, for two hours straight, competing against other typists as well as doing exercises on websites.

That's probably why you would see over 1000 typing tests and at least 10 per day on my 10fastfingers typing profile.

Don't worry, you will get there soon. Have motivation and courage!

What is your wpm? I have been typing in QWERTY and I don't know if I want to switch to a different layout.

Offline knightjp

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #68 on: Sun, 24 November 2019, 05:17:29 »
What is your wpm? I have been typing in QWERTY and I don't know if I want to switch to a different layout.

That's a good question. I would like to know that as well.

Offline rxc92

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #69 on: Sun, 24 November 2019, 13:55:47 »

Offline knightjp

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #70 on: Sat, 30 November 2019, 06:36:19 »
Well being over a 100WPM makes you pretty fast. Way above average I would say.
I guess maybe I should take this as an encouragement to stay on QWERTY.
But what about hand health and comfort in the long run?

Offline Polymer

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #71 on: Sat, 30 November 2019, 18:55:05 »
How much are you typing per day?  I mean thinking about your hands, etc...that sounds great but if you're not typing a lot then it probably doesn't matter all that much.  Given your current speed, I'd say you're not typing a lot...

I'd also argue ergonomics will be more useful to you than changing the layout. 

That doesn't mean stay with QWERTY or go with QWERTY...for sure Dvorak can get you more speed at the really upper levels of speed (if you want to get into the 150+ WPM)...but if your goal is say, 80 WPM or 100 WPM..there is no reason you can't easily get there with QWERTY if you practiced..

Offline iMav

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #72 on: Sat, 30 November 2019, 19:54:34 »
Have you looked into Colemak?


This...

Offline knightjp

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #73 on: Fri, 06 December 2019, 16:11:39 »
Have you looked into Colemak?


This...

I have looked at Colemak and even used it for the better part of two years. To be fair, I gave it my best shot and I wasn't impressed with the results. To be honest, while the layout was comfortable, it was only comfortable for short bursts. I did feel my fingers were cramping up after being on the home row for so long.
https://julxrp.wordpress.com/2014/08/25/good-bye-colemak-its-been-fun/

In addition, although is slightly better in feel due to the hand alteration, I am feeling the same when using it for long sessions at the computer. The upside to Dvorak is that my hands feel less tired than when they did with QWERTY. So I have a choice to make..
Cramped fingers or more tired fingers.


Offline superbia

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #74 on: Sat, 07 December 2019, 16:07:03 »
I advise you to stop thinking about Dvorak, Colemak, Workman, Mod-DH...
It's Christmas in two weeks, spend your time with family and loved ones, not learning a new layout  :thumb:
Keebio Iris 2.8 (Alps) X Colemak Mod-DH

Offline knightjp

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #75 on: Sun, 08 December 2019, 01:20:37 »
Have you experienced difficulties switching between Dvorak and QWERTY layouts at short notice e.g. being asked of a sudden to type something on a colleague's QWERTY keyboard after you have been typing Dvorak for hours?  Or are you able to transition from one to the other after giving yourself only a minute or two for the different muscle memory to take effect?

I ask because I am interested in how much effort might be involved in making an impromptu switch between different keyboard layouts.

Sorry I missed this post. My apologies.

I have been going back and forth in between DVORAK and QWERTY. Here are my findings.
After getting quite used to the DVORAK layout, I did find that I was making quite a few mistakes when attempting to touch type on QWERTY.
Also, this come as no surprise, but I did feel that typing comes more natural to hand on DVORAK. QWERTY is more of an effort.
However, I am surprised that every time I come back to QWERTY, it takes me about a minute and I can almost touch type on it with the same speed that I am currently typing on DVORAK.
I don't know what to make of that, but I guess that it is because I am using a QWERTY layout keyboard. Constantly looking at it and every other keyboard in the office has basically ingrained it on my brain. I just have to tell my brain that I am using QWERTY, takes about a minute to familiarize myself and away I go. It does not feel as awkward as I thought it would be. 

I advise you to stop thinking about Dvorak, Colemak, Workman, Mod-DH...
It's Christmas in two weeks, spend your time with family and loved ones, not learning a new layout  :thumb:
Haha... Good one.  :thumb: :thumb:
« Last Edit: Sun, 08 December 2019, 01:22:12 by knightjp »

Offline treeleaf64

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #76 on: Mon, 09 December 2019, 21:16:51 »
I suppose Dvorak helps you type faster, but it is really going to be a pain to keep up if one has a relatively high WPM like me, at 125-130 average.

Offline superbia

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #77 on: Tue, 10 December 2019, 03:48:24 »
Questions for "qwerty typists":
1) Do you rest at ASDF JKL; >99% of the time?
2) Do you touch-type >99% of the time?
3) Do you use proper fingers >99% of the time?
Keebio Iris 2.8 (Alps) X Colemak Mod-DH

Offline treeleaf64

  • Posts: 385
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #78 on: Thu, 12 December 2019, 11:20:42 »
Questions for "qwerty typists":
1) Do you rest at ASDF JKL; >99% of the time?
2) Do you touch-type >99% of the time?
3) Do you use proper fingers >99% of the time?

Yes.
Yes.
No, I use my left ring finger for Q and Z.
I get around 130 wpm usually.

Offline superbia

  • Posts: 130
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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #79 on: Thu, 12 December 2019, 12:03:10 »
No, I use my left ring finger for Q and Z.

First of all, thank you for being honest.

It's really great that you have found one of the inherent flaws of QWERTY (and ANSI).
Luckily, a common fix that ergo people like to use on their laptops is called an "angle mod".
It would essentially enable you to use Z with it's designated finger.
Why would you use it? Well if you don't care to type properly you wouldn't.
Just to be clear, you can increase your ergonomics even without learning Dvorak or Colemak.




P.S. My quest to find a proper QWERTY typist is still ongoing...
Keebio Iris 2.8 (Alps) X Colemak Mod-DH

Offline Polymer

  • Posts: 1435
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #80 on: Sat, 14 December 2019, 06:30:23 »
I touch type with proper form using QWERTY. 

1.  yes
2.  yes
3.  yes  I think the only one in question is the number 6 which I've seen some places say it should be with your right index finger...but it is actually closer to the left which is why I use left...I've also seen references to people using it with their left....on the MS natural it is on the left....

I don't quite understand what the issue is with that...or if it is somehow unusual....if you take a typing class, that's how you learn to type...nowadays kids just learn how to type because they have to and develop their own style..but personally this is just how I learned to type so that's what I use...

Offline knightjp

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #81 on: Sun, 15 December 2019, 14:04:10 »
I suppose Dvorak helps you type faster, but it is really going to be a pain to keep up if one has a relatively high WPM like me, at 125-130 average.
Do you type on Dvorak or QWERTY?
I'm still deliberating on whether Dvorak or QWERTY would be better for me.
Could I ask, what are the symptoms for RSI?

Offline VimLover

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #82 on: Sun, 15 December 2019, 20:32:00 »
There is no conclusive evidence that there is any benefit to using Dvorak over qwerty, so I would not suggest switching to "gain something" and instead focus on improving your qwerty typing skills. 35wpm is a beginner pace, so you have plenty of room to grow. Most people can hit the ceiling of what is actually useful in terms of wpm around 80-100 - past that and your limiting factor is how fast you can think up things to type.

Offline superbia

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #83 on: Mon, 16 December 2019, 04:00:34 »
There is no conclusive evidence that there is any benefit to using Dvorak over qwerty, so I would not suggest switching to "gain something" and instead focus on improving your qwerty typing skills. 35wpm is a beginner pace, so you have plenty of room to grow. Most people can hit the ceiling of what is actually useful in terms of wpm around 80-100 - past that and your limiting factor is how fast you can think up things to type.

Assuming that you use Vim, you will have even more difficult time when switching to an advanced layout.
Same can be said for people that use other programs that developed their keybinding system heavily dependent of qwerty layout.
I forgot to mention these type of situations in one of my previous posts because I assumed that people can easily rebind shortcuts in 2020.
Keebio Iris 2.8 (Alps) X Colemak Mod-DH

Offline Tom_Kazansky

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #84 on: Mon, 16 December 2019, 05:06:16 »
Questions for "qwerty typists":
1) Do you rest at ASDF JKL; >99% of the time?
2) Do you touch-type >99% of the time?
3) Do you use proper fingers >99% of the time?

1) yes
2) yes
3) for some reasons, my right hand always rest a bit lower than usual, resulting in my (right hand) pointer finger cannot reach "Y" and I use left hand pointer finger for "Y" instead. I'm trying to fix this habbit.

-----
I read somewhere that Dvorak is a layout for learning touch-typing, for anyone who can already touch-type, there is no significant benefit.  is this true?
aside from English, I also type other language (Vietnamese)
I have never tried Dovrak, though very tempted.
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" - Arthur C. Clarke


Offline rxc92

  • Posts: 415
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #85 on: Mon, 16 December 2019, 07:06:38 »
I read somewhere that Dvorak is a layout for learning touch-typing, for anyone who can already touch-type, there is no significant benefit.  is this true?
aside from English, I also type other language (Vietnamese)
I have never tried Dovrak, though very tempted.
 
 
I don't know if it would help as much for Vietnamese, but the vowels on Dvorak are much more accessible so it should be somewhat helpful in typing Vietnamese. Whoever said the first statement is wrong; Dvorak is functionally superior because you don't have to move your hands nearly as far and there's much better alternation of your hands, meaning you don't have to use one hand repeatedly (reducing accuracy and wasting your other hand). I personally went from 70-80 words/min on QWERTY to fairly over 160 on Dvorak. There's a big difference at least for me.

Offline treeleaf64

  • Posts: 385
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #86 on: Mon, 16 December 2019, 13:46:40 »
I read somewhere that Dvorak is a layout for learning touch-typing, for anyone who can already touch-type, there is no significant benefit.  is this true?
aside from English, I also type other language (Vietnamese)
I have never tried Dovrak, though very tempted.
 
 
I don't know if it would help as much for Vietnamese, but the vowels on Dvorak are much more accessible so it should be somewhat helpful in typing Vietnamese. Whoever said the first statement is wrong; Dvorak is functionally superior because you don't have to move your hands nearly as far and there's much better alternation of your hands, meaning you don't have to use one hand repeatedly (reducing accuracy and wasting your other hand). I personally went from 70-80 words/min on QWERTY to fairly over 160 on Dvorak. There's a big difference at least for me.

Ok, that statement alone is going to get me into Dvorak RIGHT NOW. I can't seem to get above 135 wpm on Qwerty and it's really annoying, as I've been there for around 3 months now.

Offline superbia

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #87 on: Mon, 16 December 2019, 14:46:54 »
I personally went from 70-80 words/min on QWERTY to fairly over 160 on Dvorak. There's a big difference at least for me.

I didn't really feel my WPM improved dramatically with learning Colemak or it's variants. Things just got "less stressful". My coding was more descriptive (more comments, descriptive naming, docs, etc.). I was never able to break the 100 WPM wall. I did break it eventually, but in the meantime I've gotten a split keyboard (so I don't know was it the split keyboard or Colemak DH or me getting more familiar with words in typing speed tests and English spelling).

tldr:
proper QWERTY -> 60 WPM
DH x SPLIT KEEB -> 120 WPM
Keebio Iris 2.8 (Alps) X Colemak Mod-DH

Offline rxc92

  • Posts: 415
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #88 on: Mon, 16 December 2019, 19:15:45 »
I read somewhere that Dvorak is a layout for learning touch-typing, for anyone who can already touch-type, there is no significant benefit.  is this true?
aside from English, I also type other language (Vietnamese)
I have never tried Dovrak, though very tempted.
 
 
I don't know if it would help as much for Vietnamese, but the vowels on Dvorak are much more accessible so it should be somewhat helpful in typing Vietnamese. Whoever said the first statement is wrong; Dvorak is functionally superior because you don't have to move your hands nearly as far and there's much better alternation of your hands, meaning you don't have to use one hand repeatedly (reducing accuracy and wasting your other hand). I personally went from 70-80 words/min on QWERTY to fairly over 160 on Dvorak. There's a big difference at least for me.

Ok, that statement alone is going to get me into Dvorak RIGHT NOW. I can't seem to get above 135 wpm on Qwerty and it's really annoying, as I've been there for around 3 months now.
 
 
Speed is temporary.. ergonomics is eternal 
@tp4tissue

Offline Tom_Kazansky

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #89 on: Mon, 16 December 2019, 20:40:07 »
I read somewhere that Dvorak is a layout for learning touch-typing, for anyone who can already touch-type, there is no significant benefit.  is this true?
aside from English, I also type other language (Vietnamese)
I have never tried Dovrak, though very tempted.
 
 
I don't know if it would help as much for Vietnamese, but the vowels on Dvorak are much more accessible so it should be somewhat helpful in typing Vietnamese. Whoever said the first statement is wrong; Dvorak is functionally superior because you don't have to move your hands nearly as far and there's much better alternation of your hands, meaning you don't have to use one hand repeatedly (reducing accuracy and wasting your other hand). I personally went from 70-80 words/min on QWERTY to fairly over 160 on Dvorak. There's a big difference at least for me.

Ok, that statement alone is going to get me into Dvorak RIGHT NOW. I can't seem to get above 135 wpm on Qwerty and it's really annoying, as I've been there for around 3 months now.
 
 
Speed is temporary.. ergonomics is eternal 
@tp4tissue

thank for clarifying, I'm gonna try Dvorak... soon  :p

tp4tissue is going to lecture us about tenting AGAIN, I guess  :rolleyes:
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" - Arthur C. Clarke


Offline treeleaf64

  • Posts: 385
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #90 on: Mon, 16 December 2019, 20:47:13 »
What about tenting? Is it just more comfortable, or is there actually a significant benefit to typing speed? Nothing really hurts me in Qwerty using a full-size right now, I'm just trying to get the split/Dvorak layout for speed improvement so I can finally break 160 and get on the top 25 list for 10 fastfingers :)

Offline rxc92

  • Posts: 415
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #91 on: Mon, 16 December 2019, 23:46:08 »
What about tenting? Is it just more comfortable, or is there actually a significant benefit to typing speed? Nothing really hurts me in Qwerty using a full-size right now, I'm just trying to get the split/Dvorak layout for speed improvement so I can finally break 160 and get on the top 25 list for 10 fastfingers :)
 
 
Tenting is not good for your wrists, it forces your wrists to bend upwards. Reverse tilt (higher at the spacebar end) is actually good, but it's not commonly offered.

Offline knightjp

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #92 on: Wed, 18 December 2019, 07:13:11 »

Tenting is not good for your wrists, it forces your wrists to bend upwards. Reverse tilt (higher at the spacebar end) is actually good, but it's not commonly offered.

Tenting is a problem that leads many people to issues with using keyboards regardless of the layout. It is just that on Dvorak the movement is more fluid than on QWERTY. So I guess you would have less people feeling discomfort while typing. But in the long run, tenting will cause issues.

Maybe that is why ergonomic keyboards seem to have more of a benefit over switching layouts.

Offline rxc92

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #93 on: Wed, 18 December 2019, 09:51:59 »
If you're doing something inherently bad for your body, stopping will obviously have a benefit. If you're already doing everything else right, then the only thing that can change is the layout. 
A well-positioned desk and chair will do most of the work; ergonomic boards and layouts are beneficial too, but are primarily for when the problem goes deeper than just posture. 
 
Also, it makes me unhappy to see people who use their computer frequently use a wrist rest. Those things are really no good for you.

Offline Polymer

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #94 on: Wed, 18 December 2019, 19:22:19 »
What about tenting? Is it just more comfortable, or is there actually a significant benefit to typing speed? Nothing really hurts me in Qwerty using a full-size right now, I'm just trying to get the split/Dvorak layout for speed improvement so I can finally break 160 and get on the top 25 list for 10 fastfingers :)
 
 
Tenting is not good for your wrists, it forces your wrists to bend upwards. Reverse tilt (higher at the spacebar end) is actually good, but it's not commonly offered.

Are you saying tenting sideways is not good?  Tenting upwards is probably not good..but slightly sideways can have benefits...

As far as Dvorak...I said this earlier...If you want to get to 80-120wpm, it probably doesn't matter which layout you use...practice will get you there...if you want to get to the very fast speeds (160-180WPM) then a more efficient layout can only help you..

I think most people will not see a benefit of going over 100wpm...there are very few instances where this is necessary...unless that is your job (to type a lot)...
« Last Edit: Wed, 18 December 2019, 19:23:53 by Polymer »

Offline knightjp

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #95 on: Thu, 19 December 2019, 02:13:16 »
I do certainly want to get faster speeds. But WPM isn't my only goal. I am thinking about long term usage; having to use standard keyboards at work all the time. Prevention is better that cure. By that logic, Dvorak should be the way to go.
Having used Dvorak for the past couple of weeks, I do have to ask a question. Has anyone ever felt that QWERTY is more comfortable than Dvorak?
I do feel that for some movements, I find QWERTY much for free and comfortable; even if it is a little bit more effort.

Online yui

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #96 on: Thu, 19 December 2019, 02:41:07 »

(https://xkcd.com/1787/)
(and go to XKCD it is funny and there is added mouseover text, you can even type is in dvorak if you wish)
vi vi vi - the roman number of the beast (Plan9 fortune)

Offline treeleaf64

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #97 on: Thu, 19 December 2019, 12:46:43 »
I just started using Workman, and I went from 7 wpm to 35 in just one day. I just want to reach above 160 wpm to be honest, and I couldn't do that with QWERTY

Offline rxc92

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #98 on: Thu, 19 December 2019, 15:32:10 »
I do certainly want to get faster speeds. But WPM isn't my only goal. I am thinking about long term usage; having to use standard keyboards at work all the time. Prevention is better that cure. By that logic, Dvorak should be the way to go.
Having used Dvorak for the past couple of weeks, I do have to ask a question. Has anyone ever felt that QWERTY is more comfortable than Dvorak?
I do feel that for some movements, I find QWERTY much for free and comfortable; even if it is a little bit more effort.
 
 
Look, this thread has been out for 6 months and you still apparently haven't made a decision and are waffling back and forth asking for reasons to not do something. If you're really so dead set about not changing, then just don't. Nobody really cares what you do, and seeing you refresh the thread saying the same thing every two weeks is annoying and pointless.

Offline treeleaf64

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #99 on: Thu, 19 December 2019, 19:14:40 »
I agree with rxc, and I think you should switch to Dvorak already.

Offline Polymer

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #100 on: Fri, 20 December 2019, 02:29:56 »
I do certainly want to get faster speeds. But WPM isn't my only goal. I am thinking about long term usage; having to use standard keyboards at work all the time. Prevention is better that cure. By that logic, Dvorak should be the way to go.
Having used Dvorak for the past couple of weeks, I do have to ask a question. Has anyone ever felt that QWERTY is more comfortable than Dvorak?
I do feel that for some movements, I find QWERTY much for free and comfortable; even if it is a little bit more effort.

Ok...if this is a legitimate question I'm going to be very honest..

You type way too slow to be worrying about this....you might be using a keyboard for a long time but so what?  You don't have enough repetitive motion in the speed that you type that it matters which layout you want to use...

Millions of people use a QWERTY keyboard today and a vast majority without any issues...If you're concerned about injury, get a keyboard and setup that is comfortable and also make sure you take sufficient breaks, etc. 

It doesn't matter what speed or comfort levels you have...you don't type fast enough for any of that to matter....

Now, if you're going to say you're planning to get 150WPM+ and dedicating yourself to getting that...go for it..but honestly, you haven't shown any dedication to that given your current speed so no reason to believe that will the the case going forward. 

Because like others...this is starting to feel like a troll..

Offline knightjp

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #101 on: Sat, 21 December 2019, 13:54:31 »
I agree with rxc, and I think you should switch to Dvorak already.
I think I already stated that for more than a month now, I have been using Dvorak, cold turkey. I have been practicing whenever I get a chance on 10fastfingers.com and my speed is currently at 43 - 46 WPM. Hardly anything noteworthy. I certainly like Dvorak and I do prefer it over to the other alternative layouts. I was surprised at how quickly I picked up speed with Dvorak. It kinda felt as if I was using it all the time.

If it sounds like a troll or a waste of time, I do apologize. But to date no one has addressed a couple of statements I mentioned in my pervious post.

Having moved over I have noticed a few things.
  • I sort of feel that my fingers are getting a bit cramped of being on the home row so often. Maybe it is something just to get used to.
  • I kind of feel that my fingers move more freely to the QWERTY layout; albeit not as fluidly across the keys as with Dvorak. Again, this could just mean that I am not fully trained and ready with Dvorak just as yet.
  • I sometimes kind of type one handed, for instance whilst drinking a cup of coffee or choco. On Dvorak it isn't as easy because the layout is designed for hands alteration.

Am I the only one who has felt this?.. Is it just a common part of the experience of switching?..

Offline rxc92

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #102 on: Sat, 21 December 2019, 15:24:49 »
Typing one handed will be much more difficult with standard Dvorak of course, as you pointed out. 
I don't know why you'd want to move off the home row. Moving up and down constantly is detrimental for your wrists and hands. 
Second point, the reason your fingers move more 'freely' on QWERTY is because they're moving significantly further for words on average. I barely feel my hands are moving at all no matter how fast I'm typing on Dvorak, which is the point. None of the hand contortion necessary in QWERTY, much lower same-finger use, very very little hand movement necessary. 
 
Just take a look at a video of a Dvorak typist side-by-side with a QWERTY typist at the same speed; one of their hands will look like a pair of spiders, the other will stay nearly motionless. For me anyways, my hand only really moves away from default position when I need to hit backspace. I've mapped that to backslash to reduce hand movement as well.

Offline knightjp

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #103 on: Sun, 22 December 2019, 01:43:09 »
Typing one handed will be much more difficult with standard Dvorak of course, as you pointed out. 
I don't know why you'd want to move off the home row. Moving up and down constantly is detrimental for your wrists and hands. 
Second point, the reason your fingers move more 'freely' on QWERTY is because they're moving significantly further for words on average. I barely feel my hands are moving at all no matter how fast I'm typing on Dvorak, which is the point. None of the hand contortion necessary in QWERTY, much lower same-finger use, very very little hand movement necessary. 

Typing on one hand isn't really something that would make me decide to stick with one layout or another. I just notice that it is easier on QWERTY when I am working at the computer and drinking a cup of coffee at the same time. I do a fair bit of data entry at work.
For that kind of a job, filling out form online, etc., is a really easy with Dvorak. I do notice that my hands move less.

I agree with you on the finger travel. But I do have quite large hands and long, slim fingers and the constant curl of them being on the home row for most of the time, makes them feel a bit cramped. Its not uncomfortable, it is just something that I guess I would need to get used to. Perhaps I am just used to having my fingers move lot with QWERTY.

I am going to give Dvorak a serious go. I think I will come back to this topic after 2 months as an update on the progress.
« Last Edit: Mon, 23 December 2019, 14:55:59 by knightjp »

Offline Symbiote

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #104 on: Tue, 07 January 2020, 15:21:54 »
> constant curl

That could be an argument for a column-staggered keyboard (where the Dvorak E and T keys are slightly further away from the typist, and the A/S keys closer).

However, I've only recently started using one, so I can't yet give an informed opinion.  I used Dvorak for 15 years on basic curved keyboards (MS Natural etc).