Author Topic: Thinking about Dvorak  (Read 18614 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline knightjp

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 176
Thinking about Dvorak
« on: Mon, 08 July 2019, 06:36:50 »
I've been thinking of switching to Dvorak for quite a while though. I have been using QWERTY for a while now. I've noticed that for me, coming back to QWERTY is not that bad as I believe that the layout is so imprinted in my brain, my fingers already know where each letter is.
And I think that for those who choose to use an alternative layout and still keep the keys in the standard layout, this will be the case. The image of QWERTY is just imprinted in the brain because every time you look at your keyboard, that is what you see.

However I've noticed that I'm not making much improvement with QWERTY anymore. While others are getting over 70 WPM, I'm just barely scratching 35 WPM. Its slow. Too slow to be taken seriously.

I noticed that I was far more comfortable and a bit faster when using Dvorak. However I switched to QWERTY because I wanted to be able to type fast on anything without getting too hung up on layouts.

Offline fohat.digs

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 5852
  • Location: 35į57'20"N, 83į52'50"W
  • weird funny old guy
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 08 July 2019, 06:54:22 »
Have you looked into Colemak?
"I never understood wind. I know windmills very much, I have studied it better than anybody. I know it is very expensive. They are made in China and Germany mostly, very few made here, almost none, but they are manufactured, tremendous ó if you are into this ó tremendous fumes and gases are spewing into the atmosphere. You know we have a world, right? So the world is tiny compared to the universe. So tremendous, tremendous amount of fumes and everything. You talk about the carbon footprint, fumes are spewing into the air, right spewing, whether it is China or Germany, is going into the air.
A windmill will kill many bald eagles. After a certain number, they make you turn the windmill off, that is true. By the way, they make you turn it off. And yet, if you killed one, they put you in jail. That is OK. But why is it OK for windmills to destroy the bird population?"
- Donald Trump - Turning Point USA speech Ė 2019-12-22

Offline Sintpinty

  • Carbon Based Life Form
  • Posts: 1454
  • Location: A can of beans in the cupboard
  • The sun god and destroyer of worlds
    • My promotion link
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 08 July 2019, 07:43:21 »
I've been thinking of switching to Dvorak for quite a while though. I have been using QWERTY for a while now. I've noticed that for me, coming back to QWERTY is not that bad as I believe that the layout is so imprinted in my brain, my fingers already know where each letter is.
And I think that for those who choose to use an alternative layout and still keep the keys in the standard layout, this will be the case. The image of QWERTY is just imprinted in the brain because every time you look at your keyboard, that is what you see.

However I've noticed that I'm not making much improvement with QWERTY anymore. While others are getting over 70 WPM, I'm just barely scratching 35 WPM. Its slow. Too slow to be taken seriously.

I noticed that I was far more comfortable and a bit faster when using Dvorak. However I switched to QWERTY because I wanted to be able to type fast on anything without getting too hung up on layouts.

At first, you may notice a huge slowdown in your typing speed. This is perfectly normal, I had this when learning qwerty.

To get as fast as me it takes Years of practice . I practiced every day, for two hours straight, competing against other typists as well as doing exercises on websites.

That's probably why you would see over 1000 typing tests and at least 10 per day on my 10fastfingers typing profile.

Don't worry, you will get there soon. Have motivation and courage!

Offline equalunique

  • Posts: 520
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 08 July 2019, 12:14:07 »
Learning Dvorak has been a great experience for me, but YMMV.

I started out with blank keycaps on a WASD CODE V2 keyboard set to hardware-Dvorak mode. The blank keycaps increase the learning curve quite a bit, but in the end, I feel like they were super helpful. I've been typing Dvorak for almost 3 years now and rarely have to look down at a keyboard. Dvorak legends are nice, but the truth is I only want them for vanity - I definitely don't need them. Most keyboards I type Dvorak on now days all have Qwerty legends, and they don't mess me up at all. I owe that to starting out with blank keycaps. At least, if you're starting out, I recommend using blank keycaps on the alpha keys & keeping your modifier keys labeled.

All I used to train myself was GNU Typist. After the first week, I had completed all of the Dvorak courses, and had basically memorized all I needed to know. It's not hard to memorize where each letter is in relation to your fingers on the home row. The hard part is the muscle memory. Honestly for the first month it took me 10x longer to write basic emails because even though I knew where all the letters were supposed to be, I literally had to think about it each time I went to type anything. It took a few months to get back to 60 WPM. I also stuck with it - didn't switch back to Qwerty for anything serious besides entering in a few passwords, games, etc. My productivity took a hit in the beginning and it was super frustrating at times, especially when engaging in real-time chats & hot email threads.

Personally, I feel like Dvorak is easier to type with than Qwerty. I also suspect that it is easier to type with than Colemak. I mean, how difficult can it be when you have almost every vowel underneath your left hand's fingers, with the other two being just one key away? When I would hear people say that Dvorak is harder, I generally didn't believe them, and thought that maybe they didn't stick with it for long enough, or maybe didn't use an effective learning strategy/tool, etc. I have sincerely believed that if one applies themselves, then they will excel with it, and even find it super comfortable to use. Recently, however, my views have changed, not about ease of typing, but in regards to shortcuts.

(Background: For several years I have had what's easiest to describe as an issue with my right shoulder, so about 4 years now have been trying to become more ambidextrous in various things. One of the things I do, which I can do easily since I don't game much, is primarily use my left hand for mouse movement. I use trackballs most of the time now, but back when I was learning Dvorak, it was a simple mouse that wasn't sculpted in a way to favor any particular hand (i.e., ambidextrous). On top of that, I also use business-style laptops A LOT which all feature some variaton of the IBM/Lenovo TrackPoint mouse, which is also pretty much ambidextrous. The only time I ever use a right hand for mouse operation is when I'm occasionally gaming, which also happens to be when I switch back to Qwerty too.)

Here's what I overlooked: On a Qwerty row-staggered board, the Z (undo), X (cut), C (copy), and V (paste) keys are all easy to reach with your left hand. On a row-staggered Dvorak board, these keys are spaced apart from each other, but still easy to hit all with your right hand. If you are like most people and use your right hand to operate your mouse, then using these shortcuts with Dvorak is probably going to be a giant PITA. If you're weird like me, and are using either a TrackPoint or left-handed mouse, then you probably won't even notice an issue. As much as I love Dvorak, I have to admit that this must be the nail in the coffin for a lot of people's opinion of it. Also note that I said "row-staggered Dvorak board" - it's a little further to reach when the board ortho or column-staggered; and admittedly awkward when the board is a split one.

Placement of the Z, X, C, and V keys optimized for right-hand mouse usage is not just a benefit of Qwerty, but also Colemak & Colemak variants too. Same goes for the Mac-oriented Workman layout, the elaborate German/English-oriented Neo layout, fully-optimized Carpal X, and probably others too.

Regardless of what layout you decide to go with, there is one advantage that you'll gain which I think is very important. Most of us start out hunting and pecking with Qwerty. We tend to learn poor typing habits in the beginning and a small percentage of us go on to learn correct touch typing techniques. Learning the techniques is different however from using them in practice, especially when years of hard-to-drop habits come creeping back. Especially if you start out learning with blank keycaps, whatever layout it ends up being, you will be doing probably the most significant thing you've ever done to drop any bad habits that you may have picked up in your Qwerty days. Unless you have been really serious in your Qwerty touch typing discipline, you will probably stand to gain a huge improvement.

Also, the week after I started typing in Dvorak, everything I typed out here would probably have taken a couple hours to type out.
« Last Edit: Mon, 08 July 2019, 12:31:11 by equalunique »

Offline HoffmanMyster

  • HOFF, smol MAN OF MYSTERY
  • * Senior Moderator
  • Posts: 10717
  • Location: WI
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 08 July 2019, 12:27:26 »
I tried switching to Colemak for awhile - I haven't given up on it, but it has become much less of a priority for me at this point.  I can type plenty fast on QWERTY as it is, there's really no need for a different layout unless it improves ergonomics.  Also helps to be able to use any keyboard without needing to remind myself how to type on QWERTY.  :P

I will say, at 35 wpm on QWERTY, you've got quite a lot of potential with that layout before moving on to more optimized layouts for typing speed.  If you know you want to learn another layout at some point, go for it now anyway since it won't make a big difference, but I wouldn't look to the layout as the main source of your slowness.  I suspect that if you practice a bit more and get proficient at QWERTY, you can achieve very reasonable speeds with relative ease.  :thumb:

Offline shadowku

  • Posts: 219
  • Location: Toronto, Canada
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 08 July 2019, 12:46:02 »
I've thought about switching to Dvorak or Colemak but it's just such a hassle since I have so many keyboards and laptops, and they're all somewhat shared with my wife who is not going to switch with me.
If I'm just taking my time when typing, I'm averaging about 90 WPM and I can get 120+ if I'm just typing text, which isn't too often since I'm a developer.
I want to try Dvorak and Colemak to see if I can type faster consistently.



HHKB Pro2      FC660C

Offline rxc92

  • Posts: 415
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 09 July 2019, 01:56:01 »
At first, you may notice a huge slowdown in your typing speed. This is perfectly normal, I had this when learning qwerty.

To get as fast as me it takes Years of practice . I practiced every day, for two hours straight, competing against other typists as well as doing exercises on websites.

That's probably why you would see over 1000 typing tests and at least 10 per day on my 10fastfingers typing profile.

Don't worry, you will get there soon. Have motivation and courage!
 
 :eek:  What is your profile? Are you a speedster? 👀 
 
OT: Dvorak took me about a month to learn quite well, and I managed to hit 100 wpm in about a month (after being below that in QWERTY). It's definitely learnable, but takes practice as things do.

Offline Altis

  • Posts: 951
  • Location: Canada
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #7 on: Wed, 10 July 2019, 22:23:42 »
If you're only at 35 WPM with QWERTY, you might get back to that within a day or two switching layouts. Though I'm not sure the layout is the culprit, but it won't hurt to try another. The others are almost certainly more practical for English typing.

My biggest concern would be in using other keyboards that are not set to that layout and having to mentally go between. I haven't experienced it myself, but I fear it could be difficult to switch between the two.
WhiteFox (Gateron Brown) -- Realforce 87U 45g -- Realforce 104UG (Hi Pro 45g) -- Realforce 108US 30g JIS -- HHKB Pro 2 -- IBM Model M ('90) -- IBM Model M SSK ('87) -- NMB RT-101 & RT-8255C+ (Hi-Tek Space Invaders) -- Keytrak (Blue Alps) -- Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blue Alps) -- KPT-102 (KPT Alps) -- G80-1800 (MX Blue) -- KUL ES-87 (62/65g Purple Zealios) -- CM QFR (MX Red) -- Apple Aluminum BT -- Realforce 23u Numpad

Offline Sup

  • Posts: 898
    • Supkbd
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #8 on: Thu, 11 July 2019, 17:00:40 »
I can get 121 WPM with qwerty. So i am pretty sure its not only the layout. The layout may not be optimal but you can definitely type faster then 35 WPM with it...
Https://Supkbd.nl
Filco Zero -  NOS Yellow Alps | Canoe R1 Gateron Red | AEK II JP Cream dampend |Filco Majestouch 2 Tex case Gateron Yellow | HHKB Pro 1 2003 Rev AO Serial 000171 | HHKB Pro 1 2003 Rev A1s|DZ60 OG Panda's with Fei spring and stem. | Sentraq S65_Plus OG Invyr Panda's | A17 Gateron Black TX 65G 3204 | Lubrigrante Wildcard Cherry MX silent blacks 3204 58.5G Springs |
Coming soon Rukia.
Rest in peace Billy Herrington(William Glen Harold Herrington) 1969-2018
Rest in peace Byron Daniel 1989-2020

Offline rxc92

  • Posts: 415
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 12 July 2019, 20:14:37 »
If you're only at 35 WPM with QWERTY, you might get back to that within a day or two switching layouts. Though I'm not sure the layout is the culprit, but it won't hurt to try another. The others are almost certainly more practical for English typing.

My biggest concern would be in using other keyboards that are not set to that layout and having to mentally go between. I haven't experienced it myself, but I fear it could be difficult to switch between the two.
 
 
Sorry for OT, but how do you like your 30g domes compared to 45g? I never got a chance to try anything other than 45 and 55g

Offline Altis

  • Posts: 951
  • Location: Canada
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #10 on: Sat, 13 July 2019, 02:33:10 »
 
Sorry for OT, but how do you like your 30g domes compared to 45g? I never got a chance to try anything other than 45 and 55g

I actually enjoy using them, though with mixed feelings at times (I'm like that with every switch  :p ). You must be a good typist as it's easy enough to press an adjacent key. I daily stock MX Reds so I'm pretty used to being precise with my typing due to light switches.

One nice thing is that I get very little fatigue using it as your fingers can just float across it. I found 55g Topre way too heavy for anything but small bursts of typing, and 45g is generally my favorite switch overall. Contrary to what I had read, the 30g don't feel quite linear and have enough of an elongated hump to make it a bit less prone to accidental keystrokes.
WhiteFox (Gateron Brown) -- Realforce 87U 45g -- Realforce 104UG (Hi Pro 45g) -- Realforce 108US 30g JIS -- HHKB Pro 2 -- IBM Model M ('90) -- IBM Model M SSK ('87) -- NMB RT-101 & RT-8255C+ (Hi-Tek Space Invaders) -- Keytrak (Blue Alps) -- Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blue Alps) -- KPT-102 (KPT Alps) -- G80-1800 (MX Blue) -- KUL ES-87 (62/65g Purple Zealios) -- CM QFR (MX Red) -- Apple Aluminum BT -- Realforce 23u Numpad

Offline rxc92

  • Posts: 415
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #11 on: Sat, 13 July 2019, 04:12:06 »
 
Sorry for OT, but how do you like your 30g domes compared to 45g? I never got a chance to try anything other than 45 and 55g

I actually enjoy using them, though with mixed feelings at times (I'm like that with every switch  :p ). You must be a good typist as it's easy enough to press an adjacent key. I daily stock MX Reds so I'm pretty used to being precise with my typing due to light switches.

One nice thing is that I get very little fatigue using it as your fingers can just float across it. I found 55g Topre way too heavy for anything but small bursts of typing, and 45g is generally my favorite switch overall. Contrary to what I had read, the 30g don't feel quite linear and have enough of an elongated hump to make it a bit less prone to accidental keystrokes.
 
 
That's pretty cool to hear! I usually hear people disparaging the lighter switches, but as a heavy typist myself, I found myself liking mostly lighter switches too. I bought a board with MX Greens once and returned those within a week, haha.

Offline knightjp

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 176
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 14 July 2019, 06:19:12 »

Personally, I feel like Dvorak is easier to type with than Qwerty. I also suspect that it is easier to type with than Colemak.

From my 2 years with Colemak, I noticed this too. I found that I gained more speed and faster results with Dvorak than with Colemak. I guess it was the hand alteration. It was far more comfortable for me than Colemak.

With regards to the shortcuts, Dvorak is simply no picnic and if you are used to it on QWERTY, then you're not going to enjoy yourself very well on Dvorak.
My trick with the shortcuts on Dvorak was to use my left hand. If you look at the Dvorak layout, ZXCV are shifted to the right. It makes sense to move the mouse to the left and use the right hand; but I noticed that it puts my hand in an awkward position if I have to use Windows. On MacOS it is fine.
So my trick is to still use my left hand.. I use the mouse with my right hand. On Windows put my thumb on the right CTRL and use my pinky and my ring finger for the various letters. It is quite comfortable.
Anyone using Dvorak, rather than shifting mice to the left, etc. I would ask that you try this first.
« Last Edit: Sun, 14 July 2019, 06:24:15 by knightjp »

Offline rxc92

  • Posts: 415
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 14 July 2019, 07:25:06 »

Personally, I feel like Dvorak is easier to type with than Qwerty. I also suspect that it is easier to type with than Colemak.

From my 2 years with Colemak, I noticed this too. I found that I gained more speed and faster results with Dvorak than with Colemak. I guess it was the hand alteration. It was far more comfortable for me than Colemak.

With regards to the shortcuts, Dvorak is simply no picnic and if you are used to it on QWERTY, then you're not going to enjoy yourself very well on Dvorak.
My trick with the shortcuts on Dvorak was to use my left hand. If you look at the Dvorak layout, ZXCV are shifted to the right. It makes sense to move the mouse to the left and use the right hand; but I noticed that it puts my hand in an awkward position if I have to use Windows. On MacOS it is fine.
So my trick is to still use my left hand.. I use the mouse with my right hand. On Windows put my thumb on the right CTRL and use my pinky and my ring finger for the various letters. It is quite comfortable.
Anyone using Dvorak, rather than shifting mice to the left, etc. I would ask that you try this first.
 
 
Don't get me started on how many damn times I've closed an important tab when I was trying to paste something..

Offline knightjp

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 176
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 15 July 2019, 02:59:35 »
Don't get me started on how many damn times I've closed an important tab when I was trying to paste something..
I admit that did happen to me a couple of times when I was using Dvorak, but not only a couple of times. I didn't happen often enough for me to call it a issue for me.
I guess each one has a different idea. I will say that if I was using Dvorak and I had a Kinesis Advantage, then I would definitely choose to use the mouse on the left. With a standard keyboard, the mouse on the right is the way to go and using my thumb / pinky for shortcuts.
That is what I do for CTRL + P on QWERTY for printing at the office. Its comfortable.


Offline knightjp

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 176
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #15 on: Thu, 01 August 2019, 02:18:08 »
I've thought about switching to Dvorak or Colemak but it's just such a hassle since I have so many keyboards and laptops, and they're all somewhat shared with my wife who is not going to switch with me.
If I'm just taking my time when typing, I'm averaging about 90 WPM and I can get 120+ if I'm just typing text, which isn't too often since I'm a developer.
I want to try Dvorak and Colemak to see if I can type faster consistently.
My speeds are never over the 30 - 40 WPM mark. How did you get that fast on QWERTY?
From my time with Dvorak and Colemak, I can't say for certain that you will be faster. I know that on Dvorak I felt it was faster as I kept making less mistakes. I also felt that it was much, much more comfortable. It was that way on Colemak too, but my 2 years with Colemak, I still was at the 40 WPM mark. I don't know how fast I was on Dvorak.

Offline shadowku

  • Posts: 219
  • Location: Toronto, Canada
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #16 on: Thu, 01 August 2019, 13:52:37 »
My speeds are never over the 30 - 40 WPM mark. How did you get that fast on QWERTY?
From my time with Dvorak and Colemak, I can't say for certain that you will be faster. I know that on Dvorak I felt it was faster as I kept making less mistakes. I also felt that it was much, much more comfortable. It was that way on Colemak too, but my 2 years with Colemak, I still was at the 40 WPM mark. I don't know how fast I was on Dvorak.

Are you touch-typing?

I've been touch-typing since elementary school when everyone in school would spend their evenings on MSN Messenger so typing fast became a necessity to communicate fast enough.
When I started typing more, I forced myself to follow what they taught in my school's typing classes, where you want to keep your fingers resting on the home row with index fingers resting on F and J. I break some of the recommend conventions, for example, I actually use my left-hand for Y when it should be my right hand. I also don't use the right-shift at all. But following Home-row has made it easy to type fast.

HHKB Pro2      FC660C

Offline rxc92

  • Posts: 415
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #17 on: Fri, 02 August 2019, 15:44:34 »
Homerow-based typing is pointless on QWERTY anyways, the high frequenty keys are on the top row. All the fastest QWERTY typists have their own different ways of positioning their hands (especilaly Wrona, he does some crazy things); I don't even see the point in learning home-row based typing on a deliberately inferior layout.

Offline shadowku

  • Posts: 219
  • Location: Toronto, Canada
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #18 on: Fri, 02 August 2019, 17:10:28 »
It might be, but itís better to use home row than to peck. Whatever gets you to use al your fingers.
Iím curious now, I never thought to explore other positions but Iíve wondered how to push my average on QWERTY to 150. I can only do that in spurts right now. Iím more interested in that than to try DVORAK or COLEMAK.

HHKB Pro2      FC660C

Offline rxc92

  • Posts: 415
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #19 on: Fri, 02 August 2019, 22:59:09 »
It might be, but itís better to use home row than to peck. Whatever gets you to use al your fingers.
Iím curious now, I never thought to explore other positions but Iíve wondered how to push my average on QWERTY to 150. I can only do that in spurts right now. Iím more interested in that than to try DVORAK or COLEMAK.
 
 
It might make the difference. I could hardly break 80 on QWERTY, but have hit over 200 in bursts on Dvorak.

Offline knightjp

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 176
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #20 on: Tue, 03 September 2019, 01:05:42 »
Homerow-based typing is pointless on QWERTY anyways, the high frequenty keys are on the top row. All the fastest QWERTY typists have their own different ways of positioning their hands (especilaly Wrona, he does some crazy things); I don't even see the point in learning home-row based typing on a deliberately inferior layout.

It might be, but itís better to use home row than to peck. Whatever gets you to use al your fingers.
Iím curious now, I never thought to explore other positions but Iíve wondered how to push my average on QWERTY to 150. I can only do that in spurts right now. Iím more interested in that than to try DVORAK or COLEMAK.

While it is one of the best sites for practicing typing, I'm not understand what why they name it - 10fastfingers.com
I don't use all 10 fast fingers when I type. Only 9.   :rolleyes:

I've moved over to Dvorak for about a week now and I'm amazed at how fast my fingers got accustomed to the layout. It is like I never stopped using it. I am making the same amount of mistakes that I make in QWERTY and I'm about the same speed already. What I can say is that it feels so much more comfortable and I can easily type better.
However I do notice that the home row typing doesn't translate well to my Bastron keyboard really. And my right hand does tend to get bit more tired than usual; possibly because it has been said that Dvorak is a more right hand biased layout. Not so great if you're a lefty like me. However that I do know of a left handed person who has happily been using Dvorak for a long time.  :thumb:

I will say that since it has been only a week with Dvorak, I will give it a fair shot. So far it seems to be going pertty well. I am able to know where the keys are without even looking a t the keyboard. I can even close my eyes and type and I see that I have done a full sentence without even a single mistake. How does that work?
« Last Edit: Tue, 03 September 2019, 01:11:43 by knightjp »

Offline superbia

  • Posts: 130
  • Location: Republique de Croatie
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #21 on: Tue, 03 September 2019, 04:57:27 »
QWERTY := 1873 (engineered 146 years ago) (Remington)

DVORAK := 1936 (engineered 83 years ago) (prof. Dvorak after 18 years of study and research)

COLEMAK := 2006 (engineered 13 years ago) (a programmer named Shai Coleman released an alternative keyboard layout called Colemak (a portmanteau of Coleman and Dvorak). Despite the name, it isnít a direct descendant of the Dvorak layout. In fact, Colemak can be thought of as a compromise between the two.

Colemak Mod-DH (rev 2) := 2017 (engineered 2 year ago) ("Curl-DH" ergo mod is a minor modification to the Colemak keyboard layout, designed to make typing more comfortable by making an adjustment to the placement of a small number of keys, in order to gain a significant improvement in ergonomics and comfort.)

There are many Colemak variants, and I've tried several, and I'd recommend the latest and greatest Mod-DH (rev 2). I did not try Dvorak (and I don't plan to), but if you sometimes have to type on QWERTY keyboards you will appreciate the fact that you can easily revert from any Colemak to QWERTY.
Keebio Iris 2.8 (Alps) X Colemak Mod-DH

Offline knightjp

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 176
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #22 on: Tue, 03 September 2019, 09:10:43 »
I've used Colemak for 2 years or so. Don't much care for it. I prefer the movement of Dvorak over the finger-rolling action of Colemak. I've noticed that my fingers feel cramped when using Colemak. Not so much with Dvorak and to be honest, I find Dvorak much more easier to get to grips with than Colemak. Besides, the one thing that I do like about Dvorak is that it is a standard option on all the operating systems. This is something that I find appealing.

« Last Edit: Tue, 03 September 2019, 09:12:47 by knightjp »

Offline superbia

  • Posts: 130
  • Location: Republique de Croatie
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #23 on: Tue, 03 September 2019, 14:27:13 »
I've used Colemak for 2 years or so. Don't much care for it. I prefer the movement of Dvorak over the finger-rolling action of Colemak. I've noticed that my fingers feel cramped when using Colemak. Not so much with Dvorak and to be honest, I find Dvorak much more easier to get to grips with than Colemak. Besides, the one thing that I do like about Dvorak is that it is a standard option on all the operating systems. This is something that I find appealing.

That is a huge benifit of Dvorak since to run Colemak Mod-DH you need either your own keyboards or computers.
Everything is a compromise, I too found stock Colemak "cramped", and then some good people told me about updated Colemak variants.
I don't usually code much at other people's computers/keyboards but when I do I just run them with QWERTY, and when I get back to my keyboards/laptops everything just runs Mod-DH.
Keebio Iris 2.8 (Alps) X Colemak Mod-DH

Offline knightjp

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 176
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #24 on: Wed, 04 September 2019, 01:41:15 »
That is a huge benifit of Dvorak since to run Colemak Mod-DH you need either your own keyboards or computers.
Everything is a compromise, I too found stock Colemak "cramped", and then some good people told me about updated Colemak variants.
I don't usually code much at other people's computers/keyboards but when I do I just run them with QWERTY, and when I get back to my keyboards/laptops everything just runs Mod-DH.
What Operating system do you use?
I know that stock Colemak is available on FreeBSD, Linux distro and MacOS. But it is never an option on Windows. Which is why Dvorak is appealing because it is there on everything.

The thing with keyboard layouts is that it is a never ending cycle. I'm sure any number of people will find even things wrong with Mod-DH and seek to improve on it, even if the improvement will be only less than 2%.
It has been famously known that on all these modern alternative layouts, the improvement over stock "QWERTY" is only about 5 - 10%.

I came across this article again and has me thinking whether the effort with Dvorak is actually worth it.

https://www.allthingsergo.com/colemak-dvorak/

Offline rxc92

  • Posts: 415
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #25 on: Wed, 04 September 2019, 04:13:46 »
There are many clearly flawed statements like 'Dvorak/Colemak only offer 5-10% improvement' when people attempt to justify not changing to something much better for their hands. The fact is that there are many areas of improvement, with the most significant being reduction in hand travel distance (by over a factor of 10x in Dvorak vs QWERTY), hand alternation, right-hand favoring (44-56 for L-R rather than 56-44 L-R, which is beneficial to 85-90% of people), homerow/upper row usage as opposed to bottom row, and other factors that I'm rusty on. You can easily cherry pick the worst possible statistic, in which case Dvorak/Colemak will still invariable be superior.
 
The article is absolute rubbish. No research, just blanket statements like 'ergonomics isn't about the actual best and most optimal, it's about what works for you!'. Stuff like that should be an obvious red flag, which I'm surprised you didn't spot. About half or more of the article was the author self-congratulating himself on his apparently 'high wpm of 80' that is at best laughable. 

It has been famously known that on all these modern alternative layouts, the improvement over stock "QWERTY" is only about 5 - 10%.
 
 
Would you like to source that rather than claiming it's 'famously known'? I've learnt quite a bit about layout differences and you're the first person to claim this, let alone it being 'famously known'. Otherwise, that's almost offensively ignorant.

Offline cj133

  • Posts: 19
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #26 on: Wed, 04 September 2019, 15:16:19 »
I had considered changing layouts back in the 90s, but I don't like change so it never happened and here I am still using QWERTY.

When I was younger I could do 128WPM consistently with few errors but only on a model M keyboard.  That's what I learned on and because I hate change, that's primarily what I stuck with.
These days, due to arthritis etc I'm down around 90 WPM. 

I never took typing classes and I do not type the way you're "supposed to".  I do what works for me.



Offline Symbiote

  • Posts: 16
  • Location: Denmark
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #27 on: Sat, 07 September 2019, 16:22:44 »
I've used Dvorak for 14 years.

- 99% of the time, I use Qwerty-layout keys. I'm only now considering putting Dvorak-labelled keys on my work keyboard, mostly so a colleague can reach over and press "X" when we're talking at my desk. And to look a bit weird.

- When learning, don't look at the keys! Don't rearrange them, either, or you'll be tempted to look. You need the nubs on F and J (which become U and H). Print out the Dvorak layout to fill half a sheet of paper (landscape). Fold it into a tent, put it between keyboard and monitor, and look at that instead. Otherwise, you're always moving your hands away from the keyboard, so you don't learn the key locations by touch and relative position from U and H.

- When using a control key, type it with the opposite hand.  Capital A (on either layout, it's in the same place) should be typed with the right shift.  Control+M should use left control.

- (Using the mouse in combination with typing ^X, ^C, ^V with two hands is why some people prefer Colevrak, which doesn't move these keys. I think people here have a better fix: program your keyboard with cut-copy-paste macro keys, if you use them a lot while mousing. If you don't use the mouse much while working with text, this isn't a problem anyway.)

- The Dvorak layout is available on Linux, Mac and Windows.  On all three OSs, you can switch between e.g. Qwerty and Dvorak with a keyboard shortcut -- the default on Windows is to press Ctrl+Shift.  I have Dvorak enabled (obviously not by default) on a shared Windows computer at work in the conference room, and no-one has noticed yet.

- It's all about the comfort! Speed is secondary. Unless your job is a data entry clerk or secretary, the 100, 120WPM+ speeds really aren't a huge benefit. Save your wrists!


Offline Altis

  • Posts: 951
  • Location: Canada
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #28 on: Sat, 07 September 2019, 16:45:58 »
- It's all about the comfort! Speed is secondary. Unless your job is a data entry clerk or secretary, the 100, 120WPM+ speeds really aren't a huge benefit. Save your wrists!

This is a good point. I find generally my typing speed far exceeds my ability to think about what I need to type, anyways. :p

Having said that, I doubt I'll ever be bothered to change layouts. It could be fun to try, though.
WhiteFox (Gateron Brown) -- Realforce 87U 45g -- Realforce 104UG (Hi Pro 45g) -- Realforce 108US 30g JIS -- HHKB Pro 2 -- IBM Model M ('90) -- IBM Model M SSK ('87) -- NMB RT-101 & RT-8255C+ (Hi-Tek Space Invaders) -- Keytrak (Blue Alps) -- Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blue Alps) -- KPT-102 (KPT Alps) -- G80-1800 (MX Blue) -- KUL ES-87 (62/65g Purple Zealios) -- CM QFR (MX Red) -- Apple Aluminum BT -- Realforce 23u Numpad

Offline superbia

  • Posts: 130
  • Location: Republique de Croatie
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #29 on: Sat, 07 September 2019, 16:56:43 »
I've used Dvorak for 14 years.

I feel sorry for you brother.
One day I wish to learn a useful Dvorak variant just so I get the right to trash-talk Dvorak into oblivion  :thumb:

Jokes aside most of programmers I know type Dvorak...
Keebio Iris 2.8 (Alps) X Colemak Mod-DH

Offline knightjp

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 176
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #30 on: Mon, 09 September 2019, 01:09:10 »
I've used Dvorak for 14 years.
- (Using the mouse in combination with typing ^X, ^C, ^V with two hands is why some people prefer Colevrak, which doesn't move these keys. I think people here have a better fix: program your keyboard with cut-copy-paste macro keys, if you use them a lot while mousing. If you don't use the mouse much while working with text, this isn't a problem anyway.)
The one great thing about MacOS is that it has the Dvorak with QWERTY Cmd. That leaves the keyboard back to QWERTY when the command key in implemented and makes it a whole lot easier for shortcuts. However there is an issue when you have to move to another platform that doesn't have it like Windows. I found my own tricks though with shortcuts though.

- It's all about the comfort! Speed is secondary. Unless your job is a data entry clerk or secretary, the 100, 120WPM+ speeds really aren't a huge benefit. Save your wrists!
I agree with the comfort part. However when it comes to the wrist, I fail to see how it is saved unless you use an ergonomic keyboard. The standard keyboard by design is not ideal and not good for your wrist, regardless of the layout. But I do feel more easier and comfortable not moving my fingers around so much like with QWERTY.

I feel sorry for you brother.
One day I wish to learn a useful Dvorak variant just so I get the right to trash-talk Dvorak into oblivion  :thumb:

Jokes aside most of programmers I know type Dvorak...

I didn't start this thread to trash talk about any keyboard layout or those who use them. I'm pretty sure that there are a number of users that are happily typing away on QWERTY layouts with speeds over 200WPM. And unless you're able to beat them with Colemak, I don't think that it gives you the right to trash talk any keyboard layout.

My own personal experience with Colemak was good but not great. It took me 2 years to be able to get good with the layout (my own personal flaws, I admit). Secondly after a while of typing, my arms would start to ache and my fingers felt cramped.
By contrast, I was able to get to grips with Dvorak within a month for the 1st time using it; within a week this time. And my fingers feel really comfortable as a bonus. :thumb:


Offline Saga

  • Posts: 51
  • Pew Pew Particle Accelerators
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #31 on: Fri, 20 September 2019, 18:56:30 »
I can dig up the studies but essentially every single study ever done on alternative typing systems has concluded that the time would be better spent actively learning to increase your typing speed with QWERTY. There's been no research whatsoever that shows that alternative layouts are meaningfully faster. It's all pure personal preference, but if you're switching for speed you're making a mistake.

Offline rxc92

  • Posts: 415
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #32 on: Sat, 21 September 2019, 08:01:08 »
I can dig up the studies but essentially every single study ever done on alternative typing systems has concluded that the time would be better spent actively learning to increase your typing speed with QWERTY. There's been no research whatsoever that shows that alternative layouts are meaningfully faster. It's all pure personal preference, but if you're switching for speed you're making a mistake.
 
 
Please dig up any peer-reviewed studies to support these wild claims. I've never seen any cited, it's always the 'common knowledge' excuse.

Offline Stupidface

  • Posts: 39
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #33 on: Sun, 22 September 2019, 03:06:17 »
I've moved over to Dvorak for about a week now and I'm amazed at how fast my fingers got accustomed to the layout. It is like I never stopped using it.

Have you experienced difficulties switching between Dvorak and QWERTY layouts at short notice e.g. being asked of a sudden to type something on a colleague's QWERTY keyboard after you have been typing Dvorak for hours?  Or are you able to transition from one to the other after giving yourself only a minute or two for the different muscle memory to take effect?

I ask because I am interested in how much effort might be involved in making an impromptu switch between different keyboard layouts.

Offline rxc92

  • Posts: 415
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #34 on: Sun, 22 September 2019, 10:33:58 »
Itís not difficult to instantly switch between the two, though my tough tying on QWERTY is not as good as it was. The legends are very helpful also.

Offline thebilgerat

  • Posts: 68
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #35 on: Wed, 25 September 2019, 18:28:25 »
Have you looked into Colemak?


THIS.  always.

Offline thebilgerat

  • Posts: 68
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #36 on: Wed, 25 September 2019, 18:29:39 »
I've used Colemak for 2 years or so. Don't much care for it. I prefer the movement of Dvorak over the finger-rolling action of Colemak. I've noticed that my fingers feel cramped when using Colemak. Not so much with Dvorak and to be honest, I find Dvorak much more easier to get to grips with than Colemak. Besides, the one thing that I do like about Dvorak is that it is a standard option on all the operating systems. This is something that I find appealing.


Colemak was designed to evenly distribute work over both hands and also to make metakey use for programmers reasonable.

Offline Polymer

  • Posts: 1435
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #37 on: Thu, 26 September 2019, 04:40:31 »
- It's all about the comfort! Speed is secondary. Unless your job is a data entry clerk or secretary, the 100, 120WPM+ speeds really aren't a huge benefit. Save your wrists!

This is a good point. I find generally my typing speed far exceeds my ability to think about what I need to type, anyways. :p

Having said that, I doubt I'll ever be bothered to change layouts. It could be fun to try, though.

Unless your job is to copy information or you're typing a huge amount as the primary part of your job....100+WPM is about as fast as you're going to need to write messages, even create documents, etc...mainly because you're having to think about what you're writing.  For me, the whole reason I never went to any of the more efficient layouts was because even if I could type faster, the benefit would be minimal....I'm happy with my current speed as far as how that translates into everyday keyboard use.  Whereas if it was too slow (such as my typing speed on a phone), it is incredibly frustrating because I can't keep up with what I'm trying to say...

I will say, if you're in the 30-40 WPM range, something isn't right and before you even consider trying a new layout, you have to commit to touch typing (as in not looking at the keyboard) and using somewhat proper form...or else you blow out most of why you're changing layouts to begin with... Hen peckers using one finger on each side and looking at the keyboard can do 35wpm...that can't be your goal...


Offline Saga

  • Posts: 51
  • Pew Pew Particle Accelerators
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #38 on: Fri, 27 September 2019, 13:04:05 »
I can dig up the studies but essentially every single study ever done on alternative typing systems has concluded that the time would be better spent actively learning to increase your typing speed with QWERTY. There's been no research whatsoever that shows that alternative layouts are meaningfully faster. It's all pure personal preference, but if you're switching for speed you're making a mistake.
 
 
Please dig up any peer-reviewed studies to support these wild claims. I've never seen any cited, it's always the 'common knowledge' excuse.

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1069950

Offline rxc92

  • Posts: 415
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #39 on: Fri, 27 September 2019, 13:47:54 »
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1069950
 
That is not a study, it is a meta-analysis. A meta-analysis (by economists to boot, not scientists or researchers) using flawed, non-peer reviewed 'historical records' is meaningless as it does no research of its own and simply compiles data. 
It's unbelievable that they also use typing competitions as some sort of metric; the fastest typist of all time was a Dvorak typist, but the merits of Dvorak are (in the modern day) not touted to be speed but ergonomics. 
Here's a compiled list of computer-compiled typing statistics http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?dvorak   
Another more detailed one https://workmanlayout.org/#key-usage-visualization
Hand alternation, hand preference, movement distance, balance of finger usage are all inferior in every regard in QWERTY compared to any alternative layout; finger travel is nearly double, there's a >55% preference for left hand (great if you're left handed! Not so much for the rest of us), awful row and finger balance by placing commonly used keys in the same column or random rows. 
 
It's an inarguable fact that it's by far the worst thing you could do to your fingers to continue using QWERTY. Some people don't do much typing and can get away with it, others such as myself cannot.

Offline Polymer

  • Posts: 1435
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #40 on: Sat, 28 September 2019, 01:59:20 »
It's an inarguable fact that it's by far the worst thing you could do to your fingers to continue using QWERTY. Some people don't do much typing and can get away with it, others such as myself cannot.

Seriously that's a pretty poorly worded statement...or completely ignorant.

I can think of quite a number of things worse than using QWERTY on a keyboard...

Pertaining JUST to typing...Yes, QWERTY is far from perfect...but it isn't problematic for a vast majority of people because the reality is, most people's job is not to peck away at a keyboard for 8 hours a day straight.  IF that is your job then yes, you may want to consider a change...But equally there are other things ergonomically that will make as much if not more of a difference to preventing injury...

Offline Saga

  • Posts: 51
  • Pew Pew Particle Accelerators
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #41 on: Mon, 30 September 2019, 19:59:02 »
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1069950
 
words

Nobody is denying path distance is different in alternative typing systems. Plenty of people are arguing that that is a fairly meaningless goal or criteria. It seems a little bit like Spinal Tap's "It goes to 11". It's better because a carefully chosen statistic is better, but nobody seems to be able to follow that through to real+world improvement in typing speed. Path distance doesn't account for time retraining, for example.

Offline rxc92

  • Posts: 415
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #42 on: Mon, 30 September 2019, 21:22:33 »
words
 
 
I mean do you have any studies indicating it's slower? About all we can definitively say is that the fastest typist was a Dvorak typist, which should be statistically improbably given how few there are compared to QWERTY typists. That was never the point of this thread though, and it's mind-boggling how people messing up their own hands insist on defending a terrible layout. It's extremely nonsensical thing to do, especially when the only thing you've ever done in this thread is make a wild (wrong) claim that was debunked and then immediately move the goalposts.

Offline mizzoperator

  • Posts: 66
  • Location: Hot Topic
  • "This can't be good for me, but I feel great!"
    • Milk Time: The Mizz Domain
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #43 on: Tue, 01 October 2019, 13:15:38 »
In my experience, layouts like DVORAK just do not work for me, full stop.
It's probably because I'm stubborn, but I can't say I would recommend it unless you have a lot of free time and you can get your memories of the QWERTY layout erased from your brain somehow.
Overall, it seems more like a meme to me, but I can see how it would improve typing speed by a considerable amount in THEORY.
Don't let that discourage you from trying it, though.
Linears are for linear people. No offense if you use linears.
I prefer tactile switches, I'm reluctantly using the AULA SI-859 and my pronouns are she/her.

Offline Saga

  • Posts: 51
  • Pew Pew Particle Accelerators
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #44 on: Tue, 01 October 2019, 16:17:02 »
words
 
 
I mean do you have any studies indicating it's slower?

I'm genuinely trying to track down the one I read that showed not that it was slower, but that any gains may be secondary to a dedicated period of trying to improve typing speed in a layout you already know.

Offline superbia

  • Posts: 130
  • Location: Republique de Croatie
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #45 on: Wed, 02 October 2019, 10:21:53 »
There's still plenty of reasons to praise QWERTY in 2020:

1) You want to be mainstream (whatever that means)
2) You don't type enough on your keyboard
3) You don't touch-type
4) You are a PRO gamer (you need to use standardized equipment)
5) You have invested into traditional keyboards (non-ergo, non-split) and plan to move them (sell them) in the future
6) You have invested into keycaps with QWERTY legends and plan to move them (sell them) in the future
7) Your job demands the use of QWERTY (or your job is to make something related to it)

Nobody dares to ask longtime Dvorak/Colemak users if they would ever voluntarily consider downgrading to QWERTY?
I dare you to find someone who will anwser yes.
Keebio Iris 2.8 (Alps) X Colemak Mod-DH

Offline mizzoperator

  • Posts: 66
  • Location: Hot Topic
  • "This can't be good for me, but I feel great!"
    • Milk Time: The Mizz Domain
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #46 on: Wed, 02 October 2019, 10:36:08 »
There's still plenty of reasons to praise QWERTY in 2020:

1) You want to be mainstream (whatever that means)
2) You don't type enough on your keyboard
3) You don't touch-type
4) You are a PRO gamer (you need to use standardized equipment)
5) You have invested into traditional keyboards (non-ergo, non-split) and plan to move them (sell them) in the future
6) You have invested into keycaps with QWERTY legends and plan to move them (sell them) in the future
7) Your job demands the use of QWERTY (or your job is to make something related to it)

Nobody dares to ask longtime Dvorak/Colemak users if they would ever voluntarily consider downgrading to QWERTY?
I dare you to find someone who will anwser yes.

IMO, QWERTY is just convenient. It happens to be the layout that's on, like, every conventional keyboard ever.
I can touch-type fine with QWERTY, although I'm sure I could learn to touch-type DVORAK if I wanted to give the effort.
Really, I just don't want to have to lug around an HHKB (or god forbid a Planck, anything with blank caps really) just so I could type in DVORAK.
Linears are for linear people. No offense if you use linears.
I prefer tactile switches, I'm reluctantly using the AULA SI-859 and my pronouns are she/her.

Offline rxc92

  • Posts: 415
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #47 on: Wed, 02 October 2019, 13:14:46 »
Really, I just don't want to have to lug around an HHKB (or god forbid a Planck, anything with blank caps really) just so I could type in DVORAK.
 
 
Why would you have to lug around anything? Dvorak comes standard on every single major OS (Windows/Mac/Linux) and takes less than 30 seconds to make the default layout. Also, 'Dvorak' shouldn't be capitalized as it's a name, unlike QWERTY.

Offline mizzoperator

  • Posts: 66
  • Location: Hot Topic
  • "This can't be good for me, but I feel great!"
    • Milk Time: The Mizz Domain
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #48 on: Wed, 02 October 2019, 13:23:26 »
Why would you have to lug around anything? Dvorak comes standard on every single major OS (Windows/Mac/Linux) and takes less than 30 seconds to make the default layout. Also, 'Dvorak' shouldn't be capitalized as it's a name, unlike QWERTY.

Aye, fair enough. Thanks for letting me know about the naming convention.
I think for me, it's just the fact that pretty much all keyboards already have QWERTY legends scribbled into the keycaps with a sharpie from the factory.

A KB with blank keycaps would be the best for typing using Dvorak because even though I touch-type just fine without having to look at the keyboard,
my brain would still short itself and automatically switch back to typing with QWERTY if I ever tried to look at the keyboard if it still had QWERTY legends.

That's just a personal problem, one that would be solved fairly quickly with either blank or relegendable keycaps.
The second biggest problem is that I'm really lazy, which is also a personal thing.
Linears are for linear people. No offense if you use linears.
I prefer tactile switches, I'm reluctantly using the AULA SI-859 and my pronouns are she/her.

Offline superbia

  • Posts: 130
  • Location: Republique de Croatie
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #49 on: Wed, 02 October 2019, 14:10:10 »
Why would you have to lug around anything? Dvorak comes standard on every single major OS (Windows/Mac/Linux) and takes less than 30 seconds to make the default layout.

Imho, switching layouts is a massive pita. I'd rather lug around a programmable 60% (or something)  :thumb:
Keebio Iris 2.8 (Alps) X Colemak Mod-DH