Sun Microsystems Keyboard - Type 6 vs Type 7

[knightjp]

I was randomly watching a video of youtube about the old workstations and it featured a workstation from Sun; with the keyboard and mouse. I like the keyboard layout design and because I use the Dvorak layout on Windows, I am guessing the "Cut, Copy, Paste" buttons on the left would be quite a good feature to have.



I like the Type 6's wrist rest as well. Think that would be good for long sessions at work.


However, I am hearing that Type 7 keyboards are better.



I am not able to be find anything here in Dubai to try out so I would have to rely on research done on the web / forums to make a decision; and then buy them off ebay.

Any ideas guys?..

[Findecanor]

I have not actually typed on Type 6, but I have heard that it is mushy, and I think it is the same type of rubber dome switch as in the Type 5 and Fujitsu-branded keyboards that I own and know are mushy.

I have used Type 7 at work, and don't mind it. It is light and not mushy.

[knightjp]

Thanks for the advice. It is too bad that the Type 7 does not have a wrist rest, or does it?...

A more important question that I should be asking is whether those "Cut, Copy, Paste" keys on the left will actually work with Windows. Otherwise this exercise is completely useless. I'm getting mixed information from ebay sellers, etc. Can anyone here confirm this?... 

From everything else, I am hearing that these keyboards do have their fans and are pretty good.

[Findecanor]

No, the Cut/Copy/Paste keys don't work in Windows. The default Windows keyboard driver ignores them. It does not work even with AutoHotkey.

They work under Linux and Solaris though, and you can remap them on Mac with a third-party program.

[knightjp]

No, the Cut/Copy/Paste keys don't work in Windows. The default Windows keyboard driver ignores them. It does not work even with AutoHotkey.

 

I'm gutted. I thought they were such good keyboards.

[knightjp]

No, the Cut/Copy/Paste keys don't work in Windows. The default Windows keyboard driver ignores them. It does not work even with AutoHotkey.

Is there any other way to get it to work on Windows?

[Findecanor]

I'm gutted. I thought they were such good keyboards.

Is there any other way to get it to work on Windows?

Disclaimer: I had tried the Type 7's dedicated cut/copy/paste keys only briefly on Windows 7. I don't work there any more so I don't have access to the keyboard.

But don't blame the keyboard. Blame Microsoft!
The Type 7 sends the Sun keyboard's key codes using standard codes in the "Keyboard usage page" (0x07): (Here are the codes)

And I know that some older Microsoft keyboards have actually had dedicated cut/copy/paste keys that worked in Windows, although I think those keyboards might have used PS/2. That would indicate that at least, Windows does support those keys internally. The issue lies in-between the keyboard and Windows' event system: in Microsoft's default USB keyboard class driver somewhere.
But it should be possible to have a special driver that overrides the class driver,  If you can code, making your own driver might be an option...
A quick search on GitHub reveals that there is source code for a few keyboard drivers there, that you could use as a starting point. But when I browse there, I see also that apparently, Windows wants every driver to be signed by a party that is vetted and approved by Microsoft, and has paid a lot of money for a signing key ...
unless you run Windows in a type of "developer mode" which might be more vulnerable to malware.

Another option would be to run Hasu's USB-to-USB converter, with which I think you should be able to map each key to a macro.

[knightjp]

... I know that some older Microsoft keyboards have actually had dedicated cut/copy/paste keys that worked in Windows, although I think those keyboards might have used PS/2.

There's an idea... I wonder if a USB to PS/2 adapter would get the keyboard buttons working. You are correct. There were Microsoft keyboards with those keys and they seem to work fine. Even Kinesis have the FreeStyle2 which has those keys as well and they seem to work. But that is USB.

I'm not that tech savvy to work it out on my own. If anyone has one of them and don't mind testing the theory with the adapter, I would like to see how that works out.

[Sintpinty]

Someone asked me this question on Quora.

Since i don't know much about nor do i own this board, which one is better?

[knightjp]

Someone asked me this question on Quora.

Since i don't know much about nor do i own this board, which one is better?

Haha.. Sorry.. I believe that was me. I have been asking the question on multiple networks to get as much info as possible.

Haven't gotten any answers though. Seems rather odd because it seems that those who have used these keyboards do like them. But the amount of reviews or info on the web is quite scarce.

[Sintpinty]

Someone asked me this question on Quora.

Since i don't know much about nor do i own this board, which one is better?

Haha.. Sorry.. I believe that was me. I have been asking the question on multiple networks to get as much info as possible.

Haven't gotten any answers though. Seems rather odd because it seems that those who have used these keyboards do like them. But the amount of reviews or info on the web is quite scarce.

Oh i see

[knightjp]

I just purchased two Sun Keyboard Type 7 keyboards. They look a bit used but according to the seller, they seem to work. I will attempt to find a way to get them to work with Windows. Watch this space.

[dgc]

@knightjp did you get an answer to this? I've been using Sun Type 6 keyboards for about 20 years. For a while they were plentiful where I worked, and about 12 years ago I began collecting them from magic dumpsters. I've been able to cling to them all this time because I've had 7 or 8 keyboards in varying stages of failure or damage. (Some working devices are frankenstein's monsters of dead or dying units.)

I've only recently started using Windows again after a very long and joyful absence. For the most part the Type 6 works fine, but the ten left-side keys (the Sun-specific bank) and the volume and power keys do not. Of all the things, I just want volume controls to work. I wonder whether there's any third party driver I could jam in that would make them recognizable.

[knightjp]

@knightjp did you get an answer to this? I've been using Sun Type 6 keyboards for about 20 years. For a while they were plentiful where I worked, and about 12 years ago I began collecting them from magic dumpsters. I've been able to cling to them all this time because I've had 7 or 8 keyboards in varying stages of failure or damage. (Some working devices are frankenstein's monsters of dead or dying units.)

I've only recently started using Windows again after a very long and joyful absence. For the most part the Type 6 works fine, but the ten left-side keys (the Sun-specific bank) and the volume and power keys do not. Of all the things, I just want volume controls to work. I wonder whether there's any third party driver I could jam in that would make them recognizable.

Just yesterday I got myself my first Sun keyboard. I have to say that for Rubber Dome keyboards, these are fantastic. Alright, they are no Model M, but they feel so good and I find myself faster than I am on the HP keyboard at work. I like these.
But sadly you are correct. The function keys to the left are not working.
I did quite a bit of searching for solutions online and came across these two links.
The first is a github page where someone seems to have made a driver for the Sun Type 7.
https://github.com/clockfort/sun-7-keyboard-layout
I tried it on my brother's Windows system and the function keys don't work.

The other is a thread on a forum...
https://autohotkey.com/board/topic/74666-special-keys-on-sun-keyboard-ahkhid/
This needs a bit more investigating.
The biggest reason that I want these keyboards with the function keys is because I wanted to use the function keys instead of the standard shortcuts on Dvorak.

When I do find a solution, I will be posting it here. And I would appreciate some any updates from others inquiring of the same.

[MegaMatt]

Is there any update to this thread?
Have you been able to find a windows 10 driver that works better than the default?

I also have a type 7 KB and I would love to use it with Windows 10. It works OK as-is, but it would be nice to have the volume keys, and the ability to map the stop/again/props/copy/etc keys.

I would think maybe there's some other driver out there that at least would give you the ability to remap the special keys??

[yui]

from what i gathered those board use a proprietary extension over PS/2 for all those keys making them only compatible with the controllers in the computer built for them, i guess someone talented like Hasu could likely make a sun to usb adapter, but i do not think he has the time, or maybe his TMK ps/2 adapter would be able to detect those codes and remap them? dunno if anyone ever tried

[MegaMatt]

from what i gathered those board use a proprietary extension over PS/2 for all those keys making them only compatible with the controllers in the computer built for them, i guess someone talented like Hasu could likely make a sun to usb adapter, but i do not think he has the time, or maybe his TMK ps/2 adapter would be able to detect those codes and remap them? dunno if anyone ever tried

It's a USB keyboard not a PS/2 - so I doubt it's a proprietary controller inside the SPARC machines. From what I've heard the keys work fine on Linux and Solaris x86.

My understanding is that it's just that the windows USB driver throws out the key codes that it sends.

With a better keyboard driver, it could be mappable and/or work.

I'm stupid though, so I could be 100% wrong on this.

[Findecanor]

from what i gathered those board use a proprietary extension over PS/2

It was never PS/2. Some Type 6 talk Sun's proprietary protocol and use 8-pin mini-DIN connectors.
The keyboard has a pass-through to a mouse with the same connector (it is not a hub or a shared bus but a true pass-through in that the mouse and keyboard use different pins in the plug and wires in the keyboard cable)

Other Type 6 keyboards talk USB. And all Type 7 keyboards talk USB.

[MegaMatt]

@Findecanor - Is there another keyboard driver out there that might be similar enough that it would work better than the MS driver that seems to drop key codes sent??

Maybe some old logitech driver??

[Findecanor]

I'm not a Windows developer, so I don't really know. I don't think it is possible to replace the "HID class" driver though. Drivers for other USB devices are supposed to be locked to working with only particular USB device types, by matching to the device's Vendor ID and Product ID.

[knightjp]

Sorry to raise an old thread, but I put up something on reddit about Windows drivers for these Sun keyboards and someone actually posted this today..

https://github.com/zdimension/usbrawmap

Looks interesting.

[MegaMatt]

Thank-you for posting this here! I've actually moved my Type 7 KB to a Mac, and it works fairly well -- better than on Windows, but I will keep this handy!!!

[knightjp]

Thank-you for posting this here! I've actually moved my Type 7 KB to a Mac, and it works fairly well -- better than on Windows, but I will keep this handy!!!

Do the function keys work on a mac?

[MegaMatt]

The "stop" through "cut" keys on the left hand side don't work, but the volume keys work correctly and "pause" does brightness up, "scroll lock" does brightness down.

I might try karabiner-Elements to see if they recognize the left hand bank, but I hear it doesn't see the scan codes.. but it certainly works better overall than it did on Windows. The volume keys were the ones I was missing the most (especially mute).

The home and end keys act a little weird, but I think that has to do with the way mac treats "home" and "end" as start of document instead of line.

[MegaMatt]

Just FYI:
I was able to fix the home/end weirdness with a ~/Library/KeyBindings/DefaultKeyBinding.dict file. It now works as expected.

Also Karabiner-Elements on mac does indeed work and is able to grab the left hand side buttons on the Type 7 KB. I used the following JSON to make a "complex rule" to map the left side copy/paste buttons and they work. I will probably map the rest of the keys to something too. Here's the json file I made for anyone else searching for Sun Type 7 on Mac:

Code: [Select]

{

  "title": "Copy key to copy & Paste to paste",

  "rules": [

    {

      "description": "Sun Copy to Copy",

      "manipulators": [

        {

          "from": {

            "key_code": "copy"

          },

          "to": [

            {

              "key_code": "c",

              "modifiers": ["command"]

            }

          ],

          "type": "basic"

        }

      ]

    },

    {

      "description": "Sun Paste to Paste",

      "manipulators": [

        {

          "from": {

            "key_code": "paste"

          },

          "to": [

            {

              "key_code": "v",

              "modifiers": ["command"]

            }

          ],

          "type": "basic"

        }

      ]

    }

  ]

}Mod edit: Added code tags

[knightjp]

Sorry to raise an old thread, but I put up something on reddit about Windows drivers for these Sun keyboards and someone actually posted this today..

https://github.com/zdimension/usbrawmap

Looks interesting.

I've got a Windows system at work. Has anyone tried these drivers?

[zdimension]

Sorry to raise an old thread, but I put up something on reddit about Windows drivers for these Sun keyboards and someone actually posted this today..

https://github.com/zdimension/usbrawmap

Looks interesting.

I've got a Windows system at work. Has anyone tried these drivers?

In case anyone ends up on this post from a Google search for Sun Type-6/7 keyboards, I'm the author of that driver thing, I've been using my Type-6 as a daily driver for a while now. If anyone needs support to make it work. With my program all special keys that are normally ignored by Windows's HID driver are remappable to other keys.

[knightjp]

In case anyone ends up on this post from a Google search for Sun Type-6/7 keyboards, I'm the author of that driver thing, I've been using my Type-6 as a daily driver for a while now. If anyone needs support to make it work. With my program all special keys that are normally ignored by Windows's HID driver are remappable to other keys.

Wow.. great to hear from you.
For me, I just want to get the left cluster on my Type 7 working. For example, I'd like to use the Copy button instead of using CTRL+C, if you know what I mean. I would like to confirm your driver does this.
Other than a work computer, I don't really have a Windows system at home to test this out, so before I ask the IT department to install it on my system, I want to confirm that it works.

[zdimension]

In case anyone ends up on this post from a Google search for Sun Type-6/7 keyboards, I'm the author of that driver thing, I've been using my Type-6 as a daily driver for a while now. If anyone needs support to make it work. With my program all special keys that are normally ignored by Windows's HID driver are remappable to other keys.

Wow.. great to hear from you.
For me, I just want to get the left cluster on my Type 7 working. For example, I'd like to use the Copy button instead of using CTRL+C, if you know what I mean. I would like to confirm your driver does this.
Other than a work computer, I don't really have a Windows system at home to test this out, so before I ask the IT department to install it on my system, I want to confirm that it works.

Unfortunately, I don't have a Type 7 at hand to try, only a Type 6.

Basically, the driver hooks the raw USB input packets to read the scancodes sent by the keyboard, so anything transmitted by the keyboard should be processed. Then, you can map any scancode to either launch a program or press a sequence of keys. So although I can't confirm it, I see no reason for my tool not to work on a Type 7.

The default bindings I provide for example map Copy to Ctrl+C, Open to Ctrl+O, etc, but you can change that.
The only thing I see that your IT department could dislike is that unfortunately the program has to run with administrator privileges (reading the raw scancodes require that, otherwise any program could just log every keypress you make), but the source is available on GitHub if your IT department want to audit it. Otherwise there are instructions on how to install it and make it run at startup so it's transparent for the user. If you do end up using it with your Type 7, I'd be glad to hear from you if you have any feedback, positive or negative.

[spippy71]

We had those keyboard in the office. The type 6 keyboard lacked mass and flexed easily. The keys were kinda mushy. The type 5 keyboards were nice and heavy.

[knightjp]

@zdimension I tried USBRawMap on my system at work. I asked the IT guys to help me with the install by logging in as Admin.
I ran into a couple of issues and I posted it on your github page.
I'm running a Type 7 on Windows 11.

[wwwell]

Hello,
Sorry for the late reply, but only today, while troubleshooting this issue, I came across your discussion and comments.
I spent about six hours investigating the problem and finally managed to get my Sun Type 7 USB keyboard working properly under Windows 11, including not only the Russian keyboard layout, but also all of the Sun-specific keys (Help, Open, Props, Front, Stop, Again, Undo, Cut, Copy, Paste, and Find).
For anyone trying to do the same, here is the complete process that worked for me.
First, install a Mac-style keyboard layout -- MagicKeyboardLayouts-Setup-2.0 . The standard Windows layout does not match the legends printed on the Sun Type 7 keyboard. The Mac layout is much closer to the original Sun layout.
Next, verify that Windows is actually receiving the special key events. Install USBPcap and Wireshark, start a USB capture, and press each special key individually.
The keyboard sends the following HID usage codes:
74 = Open
75 = Help
76 = Props
77 = Front
78 = Stop
79 = Again
7A = Undo
7B = Cut
7C = Copy
7D = Paste
7E = Find
This proves that the keyboard is functioning correctly and that Windows receives the key presses. The real problem is that Windows does not assign useful actions to these HID codes.
The next step is to install and configure usbrawmap.
A working configuration should include mappings for the special Sun keys. For example:
Open → Ctrl+O
Help → F1
Undo → Ctrl+Z
Cut → Ctrl+X
Copy → Ctrl+C
Paste → Ctrl+V
Find → Ctrl+F
You can customize the mappings further to suit your workflow.
A major obstacle on Windows 11 is Smart App Control and Windows reputation-based security features. Because usbrawmap is:

an uncommon utility,
unsigned,
rarely downloaded,
and interacts directly with USB input,

Windows may block it completely. This was the biggest obstacle during my troubleshooting process.
Once usbrawmap is working, I recommend launching it hidden in the background using a small VBS launcher and Task Scheduler. Create a scheduled task that starts at user logon and runs with highest privileges. This prevents a console window from appearing every time Windows starts.
One important lesson: be very careful when reconnecting the keyboard to a different USB port.
Windows may assign the keyboard to a different USB controller path. When that happens, USBPcap numbering may change and usbrawmap may stop working.
In my case, everything worked correctly, then I unplugged the keyboard and connected it to a different USB port. After that:

usbrawmap stopped responding,
USB-related tools behaved differently,
the USBPcap device number changed.

The solution was to identify the new USBPcap device number, update the usbrawmap configuration, and finally reboot Windows.
After that, everything worked again.
Final result:
All Sun Type 7 special keys now work correctly under Windows 11:
Help
Open
Props
Front
Stop
Again
Undo
Cut
Copy
Paste
Find
After more than ten years of occasionally trying to solve this problem, it turned out that the keyboard had been sending the correct HID codes all along.
Windows simply did not know what to do with them.
Hopefully this saves somebody else several hours of investigation.
Best regards,
A stubborn Sun Type 7 user, former Sun Solaris System Administration, and Oracle Database Administrator. 😄