Author Topic: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO  (Read 5474 times)

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Offline typo

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There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 00:16:02 »
Topre(IMO). All MX boards feel like and are rubbish(IMO). At some point they will fail. It is a "special" built in "feature" inherent to them. Plus they are nothing but Children's toys, not meant for typists. From 65% to CNC to media controls. Topre never fails and has only what you need for typing. You can even put them in the Dishwasher! Try that with a MX board. Not a single MX switch feels any good(IMO). Besides that they are simply bound to fail beyond repair sooner or later. don't trust me, no. just look at the thousands of posts here. I personally have had it with these things. why now you ask? Well, the final straw. My Rama, that I paid 3.5x it's worth failed beyond repair last night. It was less than 90 days old. I have absolutely no recourse. It was purchased "as is" in Korea. My bad, I suppose. I have been here what 20 years? Messing with these things? Yes, I had some fun no doubt. Pulled hairs as well. Truth be told I had my grail 40 years ago. In fact I have about 30 of them. Seeing as not one of them will likely ever fail I would say I am already all set. I probably have a few hundred MX based boards. I am bringing them all to Good Will. To do a good deed. Well, perhaps not. Not sure on that. I will keep any working IBM's and such of course. those are collectors items but I do not care to type on them. They are loud and clunky. I do not see the allure of those either but at least they too are very robust. The funny thing this guy bought a Drop ALT on my opinion. It too has a "special" fatal flaw. Happy bricking your board Bro! Okay, come on in walie and sup. I have been expecting you.

I do not find this inflammatory in any way but I am sure it will degrade and manage to be locked nonetheless. I do not deserve to be warned. I have said nothing derogatory. solely my opinion. everyone is entitled to theirs and I am sure they shall state it. however if they do not do so in the manner in which I have, which they shall probably not adhere to this is obviously going to be locked. Can you believe I am now putting a $3250.00USD keyboard in the trash that is less than 3 months old? Gee Whiz. That was the final straw for me. Peace, Out......

Offline Coreda

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 00:57:03 »
I mean, I have clicklet and membrane keyboards that have lasted 20 years but I wouldn't say their longevity/lack of failures makes them necessarily better quality than other boards. A cheap MX board I own hasn't had any issues since I bought it years ago so price isn't necessarily a factor either.

Sucks to spend to much on a keyboard and have it fail so soon after purchase though, ouch  :'(

Offline mode

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 01:31:12 »
Itís ok to like rubber domes, just maybe chill put about it?

Offline rxc92

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 01:44:43 »
Okay idiot.

Offline chyros

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #4 on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 03:42:44 »
Looking at the topic title I KNEW this was going to be about Topre :p .
Check my keyboard video reviews:


Offline yui

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 04:07:45 »
i was wondering if typo found himself a new love for vintage boards like the M and F that are practically indestructible but yeah i guess that it is fair to say that topre might be superior to MX, i do not have the money to buy one to test that theory for myself though and i guess that is the main reason why MX and compatible are so popular, the difference in quality does not match the ~7x price tag and the lack of community support, and mode is right you may want to water it down a bit typo not to attract the trolls again.
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Offline el_murdoque

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 06:31:24 »
how does a custom board fail beyond repair?

Offline -Jerry-

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 06:32:50 »
how does a custom board fail beyond repair?
I was wondering that too.

The PCB could theoretically be completely FUBAR, but the substantial cost of a custom board is the case and for something like a RAMA, itís not impossible to replace the PCB.
 Jerry Talks Tech - youtube.com/jerry

Offline mode

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 07:27:37 »
Looking at the topic title I KNEW this was going to be about Topre :p .

Funny how most other enthusiasts are content to like what they like and not be so unhinged about it.

Offline ddrfraser1

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 07:39:59 »
His tone aside, I canít say I completely disagree. MX is not the best and I think most of us agree. However, the fun for me is seeing all the wonderful innovation that flourishes in the MX style world. There are tons of beautiful caps, switches and keyboards. Are they as good as a beam spring or blue alps or lubed topre? No. But itís too much fun to experiment and see how great we can get our MX style boards to just abandon them. Besides, each one of us is in constant pursuit of nirvana, and thatís the thrill.

I do hope that the near universal focus on MX style doesnít limit innovation elsewhere.

Online Rob27shred

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #10 on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 07:40:48 »
Hey Typo, we get it you like Topre & let yourself get ripped off with every board you purchased to brag about how much you've spent. How about you quit spamming about it? Also this is not an opinion piece, this a passive aggressive post directly made to cause conflict with other users & it's quite obvious. So keep wondering why nobody believes a word you say & why people keep calling you out on it........
« Last Edit: Fri, 17 April 2020, 09:58:40 by Rob27shred »

Offline walie

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #11 on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 08:23:36 »
I love Topre, after trying out the "high end" tactile mx switches like Zealios and Holy Pandas, I keep going back to my 55g Norbaforce as my tactile board of choice.

Not sure why you had to buy your Rama board at a ridiculous price from Korea though, that's a bit silly.
« Last Edit: Fri, 17 April 2020, 08:25:59 by walie »

Offline Findecanor

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #12 on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 08:39:21 »
You can even put them in the Dishwasher!
Don't troll people into doing that!

Be a good person and edit your post.
"I'm sorry, a rain drop literally pushed "Submit" on this retarded touchscreen phone"

Offline Maledicted

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #13 on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 09:25:53 »
What went wrong with the Rama? Every single retro board I own, which I can even interface with a modern computer to test ... besides membrane buckling springs (ironically) works perfectly. Based on how half of the diodes in one of my Unitek K151Ls basically had their legs crumble from rust, you would guess the thing had sat out in the rain for some time. Since I was putting box jades in it anyway, after replacing the diodes, the thing worked perfectly. And those are some of the most poorly-made pcbs I have ever seen, in a keyboard that's over 30 years old. I have stacks of more modern MX boards, some as cheap as you can find, and those all work too.

People have put all sorts of boards in dishwashers. The important thing with any of them is making sure that they're 100% dry before plugging them back in. Personally, I would never put any keyboard in there unless it were one I didn't care at all about and/or it looked like a hobo was using it as a pillow under a freeway bridge for a decade.

Topre is what, capacitive? So, at best, it should be comparable to capacitive buckling spring in reliability? That's nothing to scoff at, to be sure, but this seems like an overreaction.

The Drop ALT you're referring to is the one where somebody managed to bend the pin of a switch and possibly damage the contact? That sounds like user error to me, but again, hotswap is not nearly as reliable as a soldered connection, even when making 0 mistakes, and that's certainly not comparable to a board that has no finicky hotswap sockets.

P.S. If you have any cool boards you no longer want, I'll take them off of your hands. My brother worked at Goodwill a few years. I would never trust anything of significance to them unless it had ... conventional historical value. They recycle brand new Intel processors, in the freaking packaging. They throw keyboards with snipped/missing cables into compactors. Be careful what you donate to places like that.
« Last Edit: Fri, 17 April 2020, 13:18:44 by Maledicted »

Offline Nonnegaard

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #14 on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 13:13:53 »
Yeah, me too! I bought a Ducky One 2 Mini for 2 million and it broke 47 seconds after I got it! It's not me who's the idiot buying a keyboard way over price from someone in Korea, no, it's the fact that it's a mechanical keyboard. Mechanical keyboards suck. I don't like having a highly customizable board that I can fine-tune the feel of, and I certainly don't want any sounds other than thump when I press a key. I only have 67 mechanical keyboards and they are only for show. When I type I use one of my 44 Norbaforces. No, I don't post this to flex or start drama, why would anyone think that?

Offline mode

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #15 on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 13:16:12 »
Yeah, me too! I bought a Ducky One 2 Mini for 2 million and it broke 47 seconds after I got it! It's not me who's the idiot buying a keyboard way over price from someone in Korea, no, it's the fact that it's a mechanical keyboard. Mechanical keyboards suck. I don't like having a highly customizable board that I can fine-tune the feel of, and I certainly don't want any sounds other than thump when I press a key. I only have 67 mechanical keyboards and they are only for show. When I type I use one of my 44 Norbaforces. No, I don't post this to flex or start drama, why would anyone think that?


Bwahahah, perfect. Tremendous even.

Offline ddrfraser1

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #16 on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 13:45:02 »
Yeah, me too! I bought a Ducky One 2 Mini for 2 million and it broke 47 seconds after I got it! It's not me who's the idiot buying a keyboard way over price from someone in Korea, no, it's the fact that it's a mechanical keyboard. Mechanical keyboards suck. I don't like having a highly customizable board that I can fine-tune the feel of, and I certainly don't want any sounds other than thump when I press a key. I only have 67 mechanical keyboards and they are only for show. When I type I use one of my 44 Norbaforces. No, I don't post this to flex or start drama, why would anyone think that?


Bwahahah, perfect. Tremendous even.

 ;D  ;D  :):thumb:

Online Rob27shred

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #17 on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 14:19:06 »
Yeah, me too! I bought a Ducky One 2 Mini for 2 million and it broke 47 seconds after I got it! It's not me who's the idiot buying a keyboard way over price from someone in Korea, no, it's the fact that it's a mechanical keyboard. Mechanical keyboards suck. I don't like having a highly customizable board that I can fine-tune the feel of, and I certainly don't want any sounds other than thump when I press a key. I only have 67 mechanical keyboards and they are only for show. When I type I use one of my 44 Norbaforces. No, I don't post this to flex or start drama, why would anyone think that?

Touche, good sir, touche!

Offline Leslieann

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #18 on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 20:26:28 »
My Rama, that I paid 3.5x it's worth failed beyond repair last night. It was less than 90 days old. I have absolutely no recourse. It was purchased "as is" in Korea.

It's not unfixable.
It can almost certainly be repaired by someone qualified or you can make a new pcb or simply hardwire it (good luck doing that with a Topre). Regardless, as -Jerry- said, the case is where the value is. There's plenty of people on here that I'm sure can get it working again.

This is precisely the reason I try to keep people from buying so many rare "customs", were this something common it would be quite easy and cheap for you to fix yourself.
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/hand milled Vortex case, custom feet/paint/winkey blockoff plate, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, Type C, sound dampened,  Thick PBT caps (o-ringed), Cherry Jailhouse Blues w/lubed/clipped Cherry light springs | HMMK TKL | Magicforce 68 | YMDK75 | KBT Race S L.E. | Das Pro (Costar model) | GH60 | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline typo

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #19 on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 21:13:57 »
You know what? I fully agree with all of you! I know i overreacted and spewed trash out of my mouth in public. I apologize. I was very bummed. I know electronics pretty well. The controller bit it. I cannot seem to find that IC anywhere. Not Mouser ETC. TBH, I did not really like 65% anyways. Yes, I am an idiot. this is true. Walie thank you very much for good input here! I prefer uniform 45G though. not messing with you, just stating my preference.

Okay, so you are not going to believe this. As you well know I enjoy backlit boards. As you are also aware the topre RGB(Even mine) lacks a lot compared to a regular R2. Today of all things I discovered Cherry Speed. I feel it is a dead ringer for 45G Topre switches. Many may disagree. So I needed to find a good board with them then. Enter the Corsair K70 MKII SE. To me it is a dead ringer for the R2SA-US4-IV, with somewhat better build quality to boot! It has nice "discreet" media keys and does not appear to be a Childs toy. Seeing as I know a district manager at Best Buy I picked it much earlier today for about half of retail. I cannot complain thus far. I realize i just did a 360 here. for the "price" however I am not complaining. it even sounds like the Topre. Thwack. I will still do my best to repair the Rama of course. I have enough keyboards anyhow. I actually like this strangely enough. I just typed this on it. I used a wood wrist rest in lieu of the plastic one supplied. For the money, i am now feeling something better. notice the change in my tone? Yes, I know it is junk. Okay. It seems viable as of now to me. The thing over topre is it is backlit very well and not the topre RGB. I think some of you might be surprised. Plus I have not checked my WPM yet but it seems like I am flying on this thing. I am happier now.

I really appreciate that you folks did not go nuts on me(I deserved it quite frankly). I apologize for my original post starting this thread. I got off on the wrong foor due to sadness/anger getting the best of me. If you look at all of my history here you will see sometimes I do bait people but i have never done something like this. I am not asking anyone to forgive me. It is unforgivable quite frankly. This is a public forum and i should know better regardless of how i am feeling. my sincere apologies to all of this community for having read the garbage which had spewed forth from my fingers.


I am content now. I am just going to forget this thread and put it behind me. Feel free to continue to discuss it without me if you all wish. Even if you wish to defame me I deserve it.

Edit: I just took calipers to the Corsair PBT Doubleshot keycaps. They are all about 2.15 +/-MM thick! That is not really bad at all IMO.
« Last Edit: Fri, 17 April 2020, 23:03:01 by typo »

Offline cari66ean

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #20 on: Sun, 19 April 2020, 06:21:43 »
When it comes to tactile... yeah I'd say Topre > MX. Too bad I kinda prefer linear so MX it is. I should probably sell my HHKB at some point before it's turning into dust.

Offline typo

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #21 on: Thu, 23 April 2020, 06:53:20 »
That seems like a very poor trade off to me but to each there own. I would actually say Topre is pretty linear. Unfortunately I just made a key Topre of mine extremely Tactile. I just think any MX period is horrible. wobble and all.

Offline cari66ean

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #22 on: Thu, 23 April 2020, 13:42:45 »
Topre almost linear? How?? Compared to the MX tactiles which usually start out linear, then have a shorter tactile bump in them, the tactile "bump" of the Topre switches starts right from the beginning of the actuation from zero force up to its peak and then falls down very much like sine wave.

Numbers:

MX Blue:
- starting up at around 30-35g
- rising linearly up to 40g at around 1mm
- then a "bump" which is basically still linear but steeper up to a peak of 60g at 1.75mm
- then falls back down to 50g and is back to linear from around 2.25mm until the end
- Summary: linear with a short bump from effectively 40-60g and then back to linear

Topre 55g:
- sine like rise from 0g up to a peak of 70g at around 1,2mm
- slow sine like drop down to 55g at around 3,3mm
- Summary: hooooge but long drawn bump... smooth but very very hard not to bottom out due to the sharp rise in force that is needed to overcome the bump and the "free fall" effect that comes afterwards.

So that part from 1,2mm till the end might be what you're referring to as linear - but that is not "the bump". The tactility comes before that from 0-1,2mm and that thing is quite the bump.

For me personally though that "free fall" making not-bottoming out close to impossible is what I don't like about Topre. I have a 20 MX tactiles switch-tester right next to me and in terms of feeling and the smoothness of the bump none of them reach Topre. Most of them feel like there's some kind of sand corn trapped within the switch. But I simply hate that free fall and bottoming out. Therefore it's MX linear for me: just as smooth as Topre and nothing forcing me to do a harsh bottoming out.
« Last Edit: Thu, 23 April 2020, 13:51:59 by cari66ean »

Offline Maledicted

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #23 on: Thu, 23 April 2020, 13:47:38 »
Topre almost linear? How?? Compared to the MX tactiles which usually start out linear, then have a shorter tactile bump in them, the tactile "bump" of the Topre switches starts right from the beginning of the actuation from zero force up to its peak and then falls down very much like sine wave.

Numbers:

MX Blue:
- starting up at around 30-35g
- rising linearly up to 40g at around 1mm
- then a "bump" which is basically still linear but steeper up to a peak of 60g at 1.75mm
- then falls back down to 50g and is back to linear from around 2.25mm until the end
- Summary: linear with a short bump from effectively 40-60g and then back to linear

Topre 55g:
- sine like rise from 0g up to a peak of 70g at around 1,2mm
- slow sine like drop to 55g at around 3,3mm
- Summary: hooooge but long drawn bump... smooth but very very hard not to bottom out due to the sharp rise in force that is needed to overcome the bump and the "free fall" effect that comes afterwards.

That "free fall" making not-bottoming out close to impossible is what I personally don't like about Topre. I have a 20 MX tactiles switch-tester right next to me and in terms of feeling and the smoothness of the bump none of them reach to Topre. Most of them feel like there's some kind of sand corn trapped within the switch. But I simply hate that free fall and bottoming out. Therefore it's MX linear for me: just as smooth as Topre and nothing forcing me to do a harsh bottoming out.

Which tactiles have you got in that tester? I should really explore more of those, and linears, even though I'll likely never use either more than clickies. I didn't mind the box tactiles in terms of feel, sure beats out Cherry MX sand by a mile.

Offline cari66ean

  • Posts: 26
Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #24 on: Thu, 23 April 2020, 16:42:08 »
Topre almost linear? How?? Compared to the MX tactiles which usually start out linear, then have a shorter tactile bump in them, the tactile "bump" of the Topre switches starts right from the beginning of the actuation from zero force up to its peak and then falls down very much like sine wave.

Numbers:

MX Blue:
- starting up at around 30-35g
- rising linearly up to 40g at around 1mm
- then a "bump" which is basically still linear but steeper up to a peak of 60g at 1.75mm
- then falls back down to 50g and is back to linear from around 2.25mm until the end
- Summary: linear with a short bump from effectively 40-60g and then back to linear

Topre 55g:
- sine like rise from 0g up to a peak of 70g at around 1,2mm
- slow sine like drop to 55g at around 3,3mm
- Summary: hooooge but long drawn bump... smooth but very very hard not to bottom out due to the sharp rise in force that is needed to overcome the bump and the "free fall" effect that comes afterwards.

That "free fall" making not-bottoming out close to impossible is what I personally don't like about Topre. I have a 20 MX tactiles switch-tester right next to me and in terms of feeling and the smoothness of the bump none of them reach to Topre. Most of them feel like there's some kind of sand corn trapped within the switch. But I simply hate that free fall and bottoming out. Therefore it's MX linear for me: just as smooth as Topre and nothing forcing me to do a harsh bottoming out.

Which tactiles have you got in that tester? I should really explore more of those, and linears, even though I'll likely never use either more than clickies. I didn't mind the box tactiles in terms of feel, sure beats out Cherry MX sand by a mile.

Phew... all kinds of standard tactiles really. Cherry Brown, White, Grey, Gaterons, Aliaz, Zealios, seveal Box and non-Box Kailhs off the top of my head but nothing that came out within the last year.

But from all those my favorites would probably be the Aliaz ones. The tactility is pretty low with those but at the same time clean and short... it feels like a small pulse going through your fingers though it's not as low as Browns for instance. Also due to the bump being relatively short and early it slows you down quite early and you also get a lot of remaining space until hitting the bottom so they are really good at keeping you from bottoming out. Also the bump is not too excessive which with some other tactile switches almost makes you feel "stuck" if you're not pressing hard enough or not fully releasing the switch. Zealios kinda feel that way, though they are probably some of the better ones. But still all in all they have this slight "getting stuck" feel as well as making you bottom out easier than the Aliaz.

Cherry MX Clears and Greys have a slightly more drawn out curvier bump a bit similar to the Topres. Though that's really just "a bit" and only when in direct comparison to the many "short pulse" tactiles. I would not call them exactly smooth or a pleasure to type on, but I do like that they are also preventing you from bottoming out quite well, especially compared to the Topres of course.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #25 on: Thu, 23 April 2020, 16:44:48 »
Phew... all kinds of standard tactiles really. Cherry Brown, White, Grey, Gaterons, Aliaz, Zealios, seveal Box and non-Box Kailhs off the top of my head but nothing that came out within the last year.

But from all those my favorites would probably be the Aliaz ones. The tactility is pretty low with those but at the same time clean and short... it feels like a small pulse going through your fingers though it's not as low as Browns for instance. Also due to the bump being relatively short and early it slows you down quite early and you also get a lot of remaining space until hitting the bottom so they are really good at keeping you from bottoming out. Also the bump is not too excessive which with some other tactile switches almost makes you feel "stuck" if you're not pressing hard enough or not fully releasing the switch. Zealios kinda feel that way, though they are probably some of the better ones. But still all in all they have this slight "getting stuck" feel as well as making you bottom out easier than the Aliaz.

Cherry MX Clears and Greys have a slightly more drawn out curvier bump a bit similar to the Topres. Though that's really just "a bit" and only when in direct comparison to the many "short pulse" tactiles. I would not call them exactly smooth or a pleasure to type on, but I do like that they are also preventing you from bottoming out quite well, especially compared to the Topres of course.

I bottom out with everything, intentionally, so I imagine that my experience would be different as a clicky guy. lol Interesting insights. Thank you.

Offline cari66ean

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #26 on: Thu, 23 April 2020, 17:11:59 »
I'm not an anti-bottom-out guy by any means. I just like it when I can focus on lightly touching the keys from time to time which gives off less of a harsh to no bottom-out. Kinda like "cruising mode".

Now this is very easy and straight foward with linears - you only need to get used to not getting any kind of tactile feedback at the actuation point and thus try not to miss keys.

With tactiles I think it highly depends. Some like the Aliaz, MX Clears and Greys kind of automatically stop you from bottoming out. The ratio between the spring weights (and their force curves) and the bumps is kind of balanced... you don't need a boatload of force to overcome the bump and there's no "free fall" afterwards but more like a cushion to catch you.

Topre is the exact opposite... you need a lot of force (relatively speaking) to overcome the bump and then you kinda crash into the bottom. Now matter how much you try to adapt your typing the stroke always ends up being the same. I do imagine them being quite amazing though when spring swapped to heavier springs that prevent you from bottoming out (though admittedly I've never looked into that option).

Offline typo

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #27 on: Thu, 23 April 2020, 22:12:26 »
I would swap the spring but I really want like 20G! I hate bottoming out as well. That too is my only caveat with Topre. It is unavoidable. Although a silent board, then O-ringed and lubed, you barely realize it is bottoming out anymore. I went so far to have made a titanium custom case for Topre full size boards. there are tiny tolerances from board to board so tiny gaps but not worth $$$$ to have a case made for each board. the case costs 10x the price of a board. It is because it was ordered on the "premonition" of a sample of a huge order.  these fabs do not do one off's.  I should have worded the title of this thread differently in retrospect because it was kind of inflammatory. I mean I enjoy the typing experience of Topre. i still have many MX boards because there are simply much better built boards. The "quality" of a topre 104UB LE for $315 is a "joke" IMHO. YMMV.

Maybe someone can help me? I did not want to start another thread and be a serial thread starter. I do not know how to tell what actuation point the board it on. I keep getting mistypes. It seems to me every time I press the button the actuation reverts to the same? Odd enough... Yes, I have read the very short translated manual. Thank you all.

Offline cari66ean

  • Posts: 26
Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #28 on: Fri, 24 April 2020, 07:21:28 »
Actually I've looked around a bit... there are these replacement BKE rubber domes for Topre available. There's an ultra light (which should be a bit lighter than the Topre 45g). Maybe that coupled with a stiffer spring at I'd say 60-70g range - or perhaps even progressive springs that get significantly heavier towards the bottom would actually make for a tactile switch with a rather linear force curve after the bump as opposed to the falling curve.

I know it would be heavier than those "20g" but honestly the reason why I think Topre feels so heavy is not because of the dome/spring but because of the unavoidable acceleration towards the bottom and then bottoming out hard.

I just pressed individual linear as well as tactile MX switches against the 45g Topres and the results are really surprising me:
- NK Creams get depressed until about 3mm until the Topre switch gets over the bump and bottoms out
- Tealios almost compress entirely (it's a very even match) before the Topre gets over the bump and bottoms out
- Gateron Black Inks compress somewhere between the Creams and Tealios
- 78g Zealio barely budges
- 67g Zealio also barely budges (=the bump on the 67g takes noticeably more force than the 45g Topre)
- 65g Zealio gets over its tactile bump and compresses the Topre closer to it's bottom
- 62g Zealio bottoms out before it compresses the Topre

Now here's the funny thing: when compressing the Topre very very slowly (3 seconds or so) it indeed almost feels somewhat linear (that's mostly because of its smooth long drawn out bump) and roughly similar in weight to Tealios - so personally I think very light weight! The same goes when comparing them to the Zealios. Pressing slowly it feels indeed somewehre in the ballpark between the 62g-65g ones, so very light in my opinion. However, when tapping the switches like you normally do when typing and the bottoming out of the Topres come into play, they feel way way heavier than each of those.

That's why I really think that heavier springs in the Topre might actually make them feel lighter by slowing down the free fall after the bump and thus make you bottom-out softer or possibly even lets you control whether you bottom out or not.

Offline typo

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #29 on: Fri, 24 April 2020, 09:09:40 »
cari, So what exactly combination would you recommend I use? Dome mat and springs? With the O-rings lubed on a silent board 85% of the time I do not bottom out anymore. I have been touch typing over 55 years. I just barely "flick" them at over 170WPM. I am moving to fast to press them very long at all. Not long enough to bottom out. In my case, I think lighter would help me. If they are selling 55G, people are typing improperly IMO.  Blacks is really typing improperly IMO. True, one shall not bottom out but if you barely "flick" the keys lighter would be less fatiguing at the least. Do you still recommend your setup for me now that you know this about me?

I got the actuation where I want it. It is dumb though. There is no way of knowing where you put it. All the lock LED's blink but they do so the same number of times on each setting so I do not see any point in that.

Offline cari66ean

  • Posts: 26
Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #30 on: Fri, 24 April 2020, 10:04:49 »
I can't really tell to be honest. I've used my HHKB for many years before switching over to linear MX about 2 years ago. I feel that as you say I can just lightly flick the keys here without bottoming out (or at least not hard) with reasonably light and smooth linears.

To be fair I haven't tried o-rings on the Topre though I'm certain that it would improve bottoming out (while at the same time reducing travel). So would probably replacing the domes and springs.

But at the same time there's probably just no going back for me to traditional layout keybords with a row stagger. I prefer split ergos like the Corne too much as to go back. So buttery smooth, lubed MX linears it is for me.
« Last Edit: Fri, 24 April 2020, 10:06:30 by cari66ean »

Offline typo

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #31 on: Fri, 24 April 2020, 15:42:57 »
Oh, Split ergo. gotcha. Yeah, no going back from that. the best. Problem is needs to be nickel spring for capacitive. Most springs are steel or gold plated. Plus concave spring. where to get even? I have Japanese layout. so it is a bit novel at least.

Offline cari66ean

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #32 on: Mon, 27 April 2020, 05:17:25 »
Oh, Split ergo. gotcha. Yeah, no going back from that. the best.

Why do I sense sarkasm here? Hmm...

Problem is needs to be nickel spring for capacitive. Most springs are steel or gold plated. Plus concave spring. where to get even? I have Japanese layout. so it is a bit novel at least.

There are Topre replacement springs as well as the BKE replacement rubber domes available actually.

Offline typo

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #33 on: Mon, 27 April 2020, 19:18:24 »
No, i meant split ergo is really great! I was completely serious! If I could get the hang of Ergodox I would be using it right now!

Offline Polymer

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #34 on: Mon, 27 April 2020, 19:35:37 »
Either you're both trolling or both don't understand how Topre works..

Offline treeleaf64

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #35 on: Mon, 27 April 2020, 20:51:06 »
So...
Did you end up throwing away your hundreds of boards, or not? Lol.

Offline cari66ean

  • Posts: 26
Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #36 on: Tue, 28 April 2020, 03:41:15 »
Either you're both trolling or both don't understand how Topre works..

Oh do enlighten us.

Offline walie

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #37 on: Tue, 28 April 2020, 07:57:57 »
Either you're both trolling or both don't understand how Topre works..

no kidding.

Offline Polymer

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #38 on: Tue, 28 April 2020, 13:03:42 »
Either you're both trolling or both don't understand how Topre works..

Oh do enlighten us.

*HOOK*  Ok. 

So the internal spring on a Topre switch isn't there to provide resistance, it is there for actuation, so you'd be pretty stupid to try to mess with that mechanism.  You can probably try but more than likely, you'll fail.  If you can find the right spring that coveys the right level of signal while changing how stiff/resistant it is, great....but probably a big fail as far as how much work to put in vs. gain. 

The smart way to do what you're describing is simply use a spring like they do for the space bar...or the springs that come with NIZ/Plum which fit around the Topre slider under the keycap.  This adds resistance and makes the switch feel more linear and obviously with a strong enough spring you can probably get an effect where you minimize the collapse....and you're not compromising how the switch actually actuates. 

The Topre feel is because of the DOME.  The collapse is 100% as a result of the dome.  The spring for the switch itself plays no part in the resistance level of the switch. 

And how you're internalizing why the switch is heavy is wrong.  All of the weight of Topre is basically "popping" the bubble you sit on.  In otherwords, it requires a certain amount of force for the dome to collapse..once it does, the rest is a free fall.    Have you ever seen a Topre Force Curve?  If you actually use static weights you will see, the switch is not heavier than the ones you've described, you just don't understand how the mechanism works.  For 45g Topre, 45g (Plus or minus a bit) is all you need for the dome to completely collapse and for you to bottom out. 

What is really happening is with other switches your start up force is lower...so you have momentum.  And depending on how you're measuring a switch weight, you might be looking at the weight at BOTTOM out.  So lets say in a linear force graph you start off lower and get higher as the switch gets pressed further.  So you combine those factors and  you have a switch that might feel lighter even those it has higher peaks in actual force needed to move the switch.   

Offline cari66ean

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #39 on: Wed, 29 April 2020, 08:11:38 »
*HOOK*  Ok. 

So the internal spring on a Topre switch isn't there to provide resistance, it is there for actuation, so you'd be pretty stupid to try to mess with that mechanism.  You can probably try but more than likely, you'll fail.  If you can find the right spring that coveys the right level of signal while changing how stiff/resistant it is, great....but probably a big fail as far as how much work to put in vs. gain. 

The smart way to do what you're describing is simply use a spring like they do for the space bar...or the springs that come with NIZ/Plum which fit around the Topre slider under the keycap.  This adds resistance and makes the switch feel more linear and obviously with a strong enough spring you can probably get an effect where you minimize the collapse....and you're not compromising how the switch actually actuates. 

The Topre feel is because of the DOME.  The collapse is 100% as a result of the dome.  The spring for the switch itself plays no part in the resistance level of the switch. 

I was imprecisely referring to the extra slider springs.

And how you're internalizing why the switch is heavy is wrong.  All of the weight of Topre is basically "popping" the bubble you sit on.  In otherwords, it requires a certain amount of force for the dome to collapse..once it does, the rest is a free fall.    Have you ever seen a Topre Force Curve?  If you actually use static weights you will see, the switch is not heavier than the ones you've described, you just don't understand how the mechanism works.  For 45g Topre, 45g (Plus or minus a bit) is all you need for the dome to completely collapse and for you to bottom out. 

What is really happening is with other switches your start up force is lower...so you have momentum.  And depending on how you're measuring a switch weight, you might be looking at the weight at BOTTOM out.  So lets say in a linear force graph you start off lower and get higher as the switch gets pressed further.  So you combine those factors and  you have a switch that might feel lighter even those it has higher peaks in actual force needed to move the switch.   

There's essentially nothing contradicting to what I said. In case it was confusing I only mentioned the spring weights of some switches so you know what switch I am talking about and not that it bares any comparison between e.g. a 65g bottom out MX spring and the 45g Topre dome.

I also explained further up that the tactile event of a Topre begins pretty much from the start in a sine like wave and afterwards has a free fall essentially. For reference again:

Topre 55g:
- sine like rise from 0g up to a peak of 70g at around 1,2mm
- slow sine like drop to 55g at around 3,3mm
- Summary: hooooge but long drawn bump... smooth but very very hard not to bottom out due to the sharp rise in force that is needed to overcome the bump and the "free fall" effect that comes afterwards.

Based off of one of the Topre 55g graphs available such as:



I also know that the 62g Zealio has a much lighter initial spring force. And it doesn't change the fact that when pressed against each other slowly the the 62g Zealio pretty much bottoms out entirely before the Topre 45g compresses over its tactile bump. And it makes completely sense when looking at the force chart. The bump of the Zealio is at around 40g, while around 45g at the bottom. Just as a note: I've always felt Zeal switches to be on the lighter side just as I mentioned earlier that for me 62g and 65g Zealios are very light switches.



The 67g Zealio compresses just a little (=still lower initial spring force) but the force required for the tactile bump is now higher than that of the Topre (50g vs. 45g) and that makes the Topre bottom-out without overcoming the bump on the Zealio. Makes perfectly sense too:



With the 78g Zealio the initial spring force however is already so high that it doesn't even budge when pressed against the Topre 45g.

So tell me where there is anything wrong with my comparison on the switch weights? Where exactly have I said that the Topre is "heavier" than the ones I've described? Except maybe for the 62 and 65g Zealios which are indeed a close call and as I've already mentioned _are_ light switches?

In essence all that I was trying to say is on the contrary, that the Topre 45g is actually a "very light switch". And when pressed slowly you do indeed notice that. The force required to overcome the tactile bump is not very high. However, it's that free fall after the bump when typing quickly that leads to a hard bottoming-out that makes the typing feel heavy. The key words here are "feel" and "hard bottoming-out" when referring to Topre being "heavy".

And that's exactly what I've described earlier. To remedy this (if you don't like it - like me) I suggested the BKE ultra-light domes to reduce the tactile bump a little more if needed and paradoxically adding heavier springs to increase the force curve after the bump so in essence reducing/eliminating the "free fall". So while actually adding force (from the spring), the Topres might actually "feel" lighter to type on due to the reduction of the impact when bottoming-out.
« Last Edit: Wed, 29 April 2020, 09:04:34 by cari66ean »

Offline Polymer

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #40 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 03:37:45 »

I was imprecisely referring to the extra slider springs.

The slider spring is only on the spacebar...the rest of the keyboard doesn't have that.  NO idea why anyone would assume that's what you're referring to because they don't come with that. 
 
There's essentially nothing contradicting to what I said. In case it was confusing I only mentioned the spring weights of some switches so you know what switch I am talking about and not that it bares any comparison between e.g. a 65g bottom out MX spring and the 45g Topre dome.

You said a heavier spring might make it feel lighter..that is not true..
this is what you said
"That's why I really think that heavier springs in the Topre might actually make them feel lighter by slowing down the free fall after the bump and thus make you bottom-out softer or possibly even lets you control whether you bottom out or not."

NOT true.  You've just worded it incorrectly..you've somehow associated the weight with lessening the bottom out feel because to you bottoming out makes it feel heavy...

In essence all that I was trying to say is on the contrary, that the Topre 45g is actually a "very light switch". And when pressed slowly you do indeed notice that. The force required to overcome the tactile bump is not very high. However, it's that free fall after the bump when typing quickly that leads to a hard bottoming-out that makes the typing feel heavy. The key words here are "feel" and "hard bottoming-out" when referring to Topre being "heavy".

And that's exactly what I've described earlier. To remedy this (if you don't like it - like me) I suggested the BKE ultra-light domes to reduce the tactile bump a little more if needed and paradoxically adding heavier springs to increase the force curve after the bump so in essence reducing/eliminating the "free fall". So while actually adding force (from the spring), the Topres might actually "feel" lighter to type on due to the reduction of the impact when bottoming-out.

Ok..well if bottoming out makes them feel heavy to you that's really just you...

I don't know why you keep referring to these springs...They don't come with Topre so there would be no reason to assume you mean these NiZ/Plum springs...

But let me ask you this...

Why would anyone want to turn their Topre into a linear switch?  Wouldn't you be better off buying a linear switch for that purpose?  I mean, MX silents or any linear silent for that matter, can feel/sound a bit like Topre but without the tactile part and with less thock..but an ultra light Topre with an add on spring will feel very much the same..

Offline typo

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #41 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 04:21:47 »
Amen Polymer! everyone knows this. too many idiots on the internet.

Offline cari66ean

  • Posts: 26
Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #42 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 04:29:58 »

I was imprecisely referring to the extra slider springs.

The slider spring is only on the spacebar...the rest of the keyboard doesn't have that.  NO idea why anyone would assume that's what you're referring to because they don't come with that. 

I don't know why you keep referring to these springs...They don't come with Topre so there would be no reason to assume you mean these NiZ/Plum springs...

Why are you so hung up on the springs? I know they don't come with Topre (other than the space bar) but you can get them. So what's your point?


You said a heavier spring might make it feel lighter..that is not true..
this is what you said
"That's why I really think that heavier springs in the Topre might actually make them feel lighter by slowing down the free fall after the bump and thus make you bottom-out softer or possibly even lets you control whether you bottom out or not."

NOT true.  You've just worded it incorrectly..you've somehow associated the weight with lessening the bottom out feel because to you bottoming out makes it feel heavy...

Why are you so hung up on "weight" now? Are you just trying to make a point? Are you simply ignoring the parts with the force curves and the comparison in force required to slowly press all the switches, but still pointing out that I'm somehow missing the fact about weight not being the same as the harder bottoming-out feel?

I specifically said it "feels heavier" to type on due to the >>harder bottom-out<< and not the >>spring/dome weight<<, and you're somehow trying to make it appear as I didn't say that or I'm not aware of that, wtf?!

And yes adding a spring that reduces the free-fall might make typing "feel lighter" because of the lighter bottom-out, yes. I know that when you measure it, the force is obviously higher but that's not what I was referring to when I said it >>feels<< lighter or heavier to type on. Don't try being a smart-ass by getting hung-up on semantics.

But let me ask you this...

Why would anyone want to turn their Topre into a linear switch?  Wouldn't you be better off buying a linear switch for that purpose?  I mean, MX silents or any linear silent for that matter, can feel/sound a bit like Topre but without the tactile part and with less thock..but an ultra light Topre with an add on spring will feel very much the same..

First off why ultra light BKE domes? Well technically they're only a little lighter at 40g and OP said they'd prefer it if they were generally lighter, so I mentioned them to him (plus I also prefer lighter switches).

And, man... I've also mentioned above that I use linear MX switches for exactly that reason. But, still... no, by reducing the free-fall after the bump by adding springs, they would not automatically turn into a linear switch. The bump at the beginning would still be there, which still makes it tactile and obviously different to a linear switch.
« Last Edit: Thu, 30 April 2020, 04:48:40 by cari66ean »

Offline Polymer

  • Posts: 1415
Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #43 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 04:45:06 »

First off why ultra light BKE domes? Well technically they're only a little lighter at 40g and OP said they'd prefer it if they were generally lighter, so I mentioned them to him.

And, man... I've also mentioned above that I use linear MX switches for exactly that reason. But, still... no, by reducing the free-fall after the bump by adding springs, they would not automatically turn into a linear switch. The bump at the beginning would still be there, which still makes it tactile and obviously different to a linear switch.

You mentioned the ultra lights or lighter domes...I don't know if you've used light domes but they lose a lot of tactility.
Obviously with a heavier dome a heavier external spring would be required to make it feel more linear.

Why am I caught up on springs?  Because I don't know if you're just correcting yourself after the fact but it certainly didn't sound like it...and typo was talking about the internal spring as well and you didn't seem to clarify what you meant..

Simply:
Lighter the dome, the less tactile it'll be.  And with springs, you'll completely lose any tactility. 
Heavier the dome, the more external spring "weight" it'll take to make it feel more linear or lessen the bottom out.

Let me ask you this...Have you actually tried the external springs before?  I have...it doesn't take much for it to completely change the feel...That's why even though I think NiZ/Plum at 35g is way too light, adding the springs to make it "45g" completely kills the feel for it....Admittedly, I have never put the NiZ springs onto my 45g Topre but knowing it'll change the tactility, it isn't something I want....plus why would I want to add weight to it? 

Offline cari66ean

  • Posts: 26
Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #44 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 05:06:54 »

First off why ultra light BKE domes? Well technically they're only a little lighter at 40g and OP said they'd prefer it if they were generally lighter, so I mentioned them to him.

And, man... I've also mentioned above that I use linear MX switches for exactly that reason. But, still... no, by reducing the free-fall after the bump by adding springs, they would not automatically turn into a linear switch. The bump at the beginning would still be there, which still makes it tactile and obviously different to a linear switch.

You mentioned the ultra lights or lighter domes...I don't know if you've used light domes but they lose a lot of tactility.
Obviously with a heavier dome a heavier external spring would be required to make it feel more linear.

Why am I caught up on springs?  Because I don't know if you're just correcting yourself after the fact but it certainly didn't sound like it...and typo was talking about the internal spring as well and you didn't seem to clarify what you meant..

Simply:
Lighter the dome, the less tactile it'll be.  And with springs, you'll completely lose any tactility. 
Heavier the dome, the more external spring "weight" it'll take to make it feel more linear or lessen the bottom out.

Let me ask you this...Have you actually tried the external springs before?  I have...it doesn't take much for it to completely change the feel...That's why even though I think NiZ/Plum at 35g is way too light, adding the springs to make it "45g" completely kills the feel for it....Admittedly, I have never put the NiZ springs onto my 45g Topre but knowing it'll change the tactility, it isn't something I want....plus why would I want to add weight to it? 

Actually with the lighter domes you still are going to have the same sine like bump/wave shape at the beginning, just that the peak is going to be lower. Obviously that translates to being "less tactile" of course but essentially it just means it needs less force to overcome the bump. Since I like lighter switches anyway I'd be ok with that.

I've only tried the springs from the space bar on regular keys on 45g Topre and yes I prefer that the free-fall is lessened. They still could be a little heavier to reduce the free-fall a bit more or more preferably: those same springs in combination with lighter domes would indeed be perfect for me (so: lighter actuation and heavier spring force towards the bottom to cushion the bottom-out).
« Last Edit: Thu, 30 April 2020, 05:08:48 by cari66ean »

Offline Polymer

  • Posts: 1415
Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #45 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 10:17:59 »

First off why ultra light BKE domes? Well technically they're only a little lighter at 40g and OP said they'd prefer it if they were generally lighter, so I mentioned them to him.

And, man... I've also mentioned above that I use linear MX switches for exactly that reason. But, still... no, by reducing the free-fall after the bump by adding springs, they would not automatically turn into a linear switch. The bump at the beginning would still be there, which still makes it tactile and obviously different to a linear switch.

You mentioned the ultra lights or lighter domes...I don't know if you've used light domes but they lose a lot of tactility.
Obviously with a heavier dome a heavier external spring would be required to make it feel more linear.

Why am I caught up on springs?  Because I don't know if you're just correcting yourself after the fact but it certainly didn't sound like it...and typo was talking about the internal spring as well and you didn't seem to clarify what you meant..

Simply:
Lighter the dome, the less tactile it'll be.  And with springs, you'll completely lose any tactility. 
Heavier the dome, the more external spring "weight" it'll take to make it feel more linear or lessen the bottom out.

Let me ask you this...Have you actually tried the external springs before?  I have...it doesn't take much for it to completely change the feel...That's why even though I think NiZ/Plum at 35g is way too light, adding the springs to make it "45g" completely kills the feel for it....Admittedly, I have never put the NiZ springs onto my 45g Topre but knowing it'll change the tactility, it isn't something I want....plus why would I want to add weight to it? 

Actually with the lighter domes you still are going to have the same sine like bump/wave shape at the beginning, just that the peak is going to be lower. Obviously that translates to being "less tactile" of course but essentially it just means it needs less force to overcome the bump. Since I like lighter switches anyway I'd be ok with that.

I've only tried the springs from the space bar on regular keys on 45g Topre and yes I prefer that the free-fall is lessened. They still could be a little heavier to reduce the free-fall a bit more or more preferably: those same springs in combination with lighter domes would indeed be perfect for me (so: lighter actuation and heavier spring force towards the bottom to cushion the bottom-out).

Have you actually tried lighter domes?  If you look at the bump it is practically non-existent.  A common complaint for the variable Topre is the light keys take a bit of getting used to because people actuate the keys without intending to...this is while your fingers are AT REST.  So if simply resting your fingers on the keys is pressing them without intending to, you lose that bump...
Now combine that with a heavy external spring..you won't have the bump because the spring will prevent the drop off..again, depends on the spring, weight, etc...You could easily make the force graph look linear with this type of setup. 

Offline armani

  • Posts: 20
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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #46 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 15:00:00 »
I was thinking about getting a topre, but I do not like the feel of rubber domes. I know they're good and all, but still...

Offline Polymer

  • Posts: 1415
Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #47 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 15:34:29 »
I was thinking about getting a topre, but I do not like the feel of rubber domes. I know they're good and all, but still...

Which part of Rubber Domes don't you like? 

Generally what people dislike is:  Instability.  The squishy uneven bottom out feeling.  The fact that you have to hit bottom for actuation.  Plus generally they're cheaply made in general so they feel meh...

So if you remove all of those, which part do you hate?

Do you like smooth MX switches?  What if you had one smoother than MX?  More stability?  More reliability?  Doesn't require bottoming out so responsiveness is quick.  No chance of chatter either. 

I'm not saying Topre is for everyone....MX switches are also very nice..but what people dislike about Rubber Domes tends to be what they're used to which is just a cheap iffy keyboard.

Offline armani

  • Posts: 20
  • Location: dallas, texas
Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #48 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 15:36:52 »
First part applies to me. I have used some good rubber domes, but I heavily prefer ALPS switches.

Offline Maledicted

  • Posts: 1080
  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #49 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 15:58:24 »
I was thinking about getting a topre, but I do not like the feel of rubber domes. I know they're good and all, but still...

Which part of Rubber Domes don't you like? 

Generally what people dislike is:  Instability.  The squishy uneven bottom out feeling.  The fact that you have to hit bottom for actuation.  Plus generally they're cheaply made in general so they feel meh...

So if you remove all of those, which part do you hate?

Do you like smooth MX switches?  What if you had one smoother than MX?  More stability?  More reliability?  Doesn't require bottoming out so responsiveness is quick.  No chance of chatter either. 

I'm not saying Topre is for everyone....MX switches are also very nice..but what people dislike about Rubber Domes tends to be what they're used to which is just a cheap iffy keyboard.

I haven't felt any MX switches that I would describe as particularly smooth. The linears are solidy mediocre though, in that regard.