Author Topic: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO  (Read 6339 times)

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Offline typo

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There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 00:16:02 »
Topre(IMO). All MX boards feel like and are rubbish(IMO). At some point they will fail. It is a "special" built in "feature" inherent to them. Plus they are nothing but Children's toys, not meant for typists. From 65% to CNC to media controls. Topre never fails and has only what you need for typing. You can even put them in the Dishwasher! Try that with a MX board. Not a single MX switch feels any good(IMO). Besides that they are simply bound to fail beyond repair sooner or later. don't trust me, no. just look at the thousands of posts here. I personally have had it with these things. why now you ask? Well, the final straw. My Rama, that I paid 3.5x it's worth failed beyond repair last night. It was less than 90 days old. I have absolutely no recourse. It was purchased "as is" in Korea. My bad, I suppose. I have been here what 20 years? Messing with these things? Yes, I had some fun no doubt. Pulled hairs as well. Truth be told I had my grail 40 years ago. In fact I have about 30 of them. Seeing as not one of them will likely ever fail I would say I am already all set. I probably have a few hundred MX based boards. I am bringing them all to Good Will. To do a good deed. Well, perhaps not. Not sure on that. I will keep any working IBM's and such of course. those are collectors items but I do not care to type on them. They are loud and clunky. I do not see the allure of those either but at least they too are very robust. The funny thing this guy bought a Drop ALT on my opinion. It too has a "special" fatal flaw. Happy bricking your board Bro! Okay, come on in walie and sup. I have been expecting you.

I do not find this inflammatory in any way but I am sure it will degrade and manage to be locked nonetheless. I do not deserve to be warned. I have said nothing derogatory. solely my opinion. everyone is entitled to theirs and I am sure they shall state it. however if they do not do so in the manner in which I have, which they shall probably not adhere to this is obviously going to be locked. Can you believe I am now putting a $3250.00USD keyboard in the trash that is less than 3 months old? Gee Whiz. That was the final straw for me. Peace, Out......

Offline Coreda

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 00:57:03 »
I mean, I have clicklet and membrane keyboards that have lasted 20 years but I wouldn't say their longevity/lack of failures makes them necessarily better quality than other boards. A cheap MX board I own hasn't had any issues since I bought it years ago so price isn't necessarily a factor either.

Sucks to spend to much on a keyboard and have it fail so soon after purchase though, ouch  :'(

Offline mode

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 01:31:12 »
Itís ok to like rubber domes, just maybe chill put about it?

Offline rxc92

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 01:44:43 »
Okay idiot.

Offline chyros

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #4 on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 03:42:44 »
Looking at the topic title I KNEW this was going to be about Topre :p .
Check my keyboard video reviews:


Online yui

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 04:07:45 »
i was wondering if typo found himself a new love for vintage boards like the M and F that are practically indestructible but yeah i guess that it is fair to say that topre might be superior to MX, i do not have the money to buy one to test that theory for myself though and i guess that is the main reason why MX and compatible are so popular, the difference in quality does not match the ~7x price tag and the lack of community support, and mode is right you may want to water it down a bit typo not to attract the trolls again.
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Offline el_murdoque

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 06:31:24 »
how does a custom board fail beyond repair?

Offline -Jerry-

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 06:32:50 »
how does a custom board fail beyond repair?
I was wondering that too.

The PCB could theoretically be completely FUBAR, but the substantial cost of a custom board is the case and for something like a RAMA, itís not impossible to replace the PCB.
     
     Hub16           HS60 + Tofu                  Melody96

Offline mode

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 07:27:37 »
Looking at the topic title I KNEW this was going to be about Topre :p .

Funny how most other enthusiasts are content to like what they like and not be so unhinged about it.

Offline ddrfraser1

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 07:39:59 »
His tone aside, I canít say I completely disagree. MX is not the best and I think most of us agree. However, the fun for me is seeing all the wonderful innovation that flourishes in the MX style world. There are tons of beautiful caps, switches and keyboards. Are they as good as a beam spring or blue alps or lubed topre? No. But itís too much fun to experiment and see how great we can get our MX style boards to just abandon them. Besides, each one of us is in constant pursuit of nirvana, and thatís the thrill.

I do hope that the near universal focus on MX style doesnít limit innovation elsewhere.

Online Rob27shred

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #10 on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 07:40:48 »
Hey Typo, we get it you like Topre & let yourself get ripped off with every board you purchased to brag about how much you've spent. How about you quit spamming about it? Also this is not an opinion piece, this a passive aggressive post directly made to cause conflict with other users & it's quite obvious. So keep wondering why nobody believes a word you say & why people keep calling you out on it........
« Last Edit: Fri, 17 April 2020, 09:58:40 by Rob27shred »

Offline walie

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #11 on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 08:23:36 »
I love Topre, after trying out the "high end" tactile mx switches like Zealios and Holy Pandas, I keep going back to my 55g Norbaforce as my tactile board of choice.

Not sure why you had to buy your Rama board at a ridiculous price from Korea though, that's a bit silly.
« Last Edit: Fri, 17 April 2020, 08:25:59 by walie »

Offline Findecanor

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #12 on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 08:39:21 »
You can even put them in the Dishwasher!
Don't troll people into doing that!

Be a good person and edit your post.
Man must shape his tools lest they shape him
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Offline Maledicted

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #13 on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 09:25:53 »
What went wrong with the Rama? Every single retro board I own, which I can even interface with a modern computer to test ... besides membrane buckling springs (ironically) works perfectly. Based on how half of the diodes in one of my Unitek K151Ls basically had their legs crumble from rust, you would guess the thing had sat out in the rain for some time. Since I was putting box jades in it anyway, after replacing the diodes, the thing worked perfectly. And those are some of the most poorly-made pcbs I have ever seen, in a keyboard that's over 30 years old. I have stacks of more modern MX boards, some as cheap as you can find, and those all work too.

People have put all sorts of boards in dishwashers. The important thing with any of them is making sure that they're 100% dry before plugging them back in. Personally, I would never put any keyboard in there unless it were one I didn't care at all about and/or it looked like a hobo was using it as a pillow under a freeway bridge for a decade.

Topre is what, capacitive? So, at best, it should be comparable to capacitive buckling spring in reliability? That's nothing to scoff at, to be sure, but this seems like an overreaction.

The Drop ALT you're referring to is the one where somebody managed to bend the pin of a switch and possibly damage the contact? That sounds like user error to me, but again, hotswap is not nearly as reliable as a soldered connection, even when making 0 mistakes, and that's certainly not comparable to a board that has no finicky hotswap sockets.

P.S. If you have any cool boards you no longer want, I'll take them off of your hands. My brother worked at Goodwill a few years. I would never trust anything of significance to them unless it had ... conventional historical value. They recycle brand new Intel processors, in the freaking packaging. They throw keyboards with snipped/missing cables into compactors. Be careful what you donate to places like that.
« Last Edit: Fri, 17 April 2020, 13:18:44 by Maledicted »

Offline Nonnegaard

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #14 on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 13:13:53 »
Yeah, me too! I bought a Ducky One 2 Mini for 2 million and it broke 47 seconds after I got it! It's not me who's the idiot buying a keyboard way over price from someone in Korea, no, it's the fact that it's a mechanical keyboard. Mechanical keyboards suck. I don't like having a highly customizable board that I can fine-tune the feel of, and I certainly don't want any sounds other than thump when I press a key. I only have 67 mechanical keyboards and they are only for show. When I type I use one of my 44 Norbaforces. No, I don't post this to flex or start drama, why would anyone think that?

Offline mode

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #15 on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 13:16:12 »
Yeah, me too! I bought a Ducky One 2 Mini for 2 million and it broke 47 seconds after I got it! It's not me who's the idiot buying a keyboard way over price from someone in Korea, no, it's the fact that it's a mechanical keyboard. Mechanical keyboards suck. I don't like having a highly customizable board that I can fine-tune the feel of, and I certainly don't want any sounds other than thump when I press a key. I only have 67 mechanical keyboards and they are only for show. When I type I use one of my 44 Norbaforces. No, I don't post this to flex or start drama, why would anyone think that?


Bwahahah, perfect. Tremendous even.

Offline ddrfraser1

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #16 on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 13:45:02 »
Yeah, me too! I bought a Ducky One 2 Mini for 2 million and it broke 47 seconds after I got it! It's not me who's the idiot buying a keyboard way over price from someone in Korea, no, it's the fact that it's a mechanical keyboard. Mechanical keyboards suck. I don't like having a highly customizable board that I can fine-tune the feel of, and I certainly don't want any sounds other than thump when I press a key. I only have 67 mechanical keyboards and they are only for show. When I type I use one of my 44 Norbaforces. No, I don't post this to flex or start drama, why would anyone think that?


Bwahahah, perfect. Tremendous even.

 ;D  ;D  :):thumb:

Online Rob27shred

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #17 on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 14:19:06 »
Yeah, me too! I bought a Ducky One 2 Mini for 2 million and it broke 47 seconds after I got it! It's not me who's the idiot buying a keyboard way over price from someone in Korea, no, it's the fact that it's a mechanical keyboard. Mechanical keyboards suck. I don't like having a highly customizable board that I can fine-tune the feel of, and I certainly don't want any sounds other than thump when I press a key. I only have 67 mechanical keyboards and they are only for show. When I type I use one of my 44 Norbaforces. No, I don't post this to flex or start drama, why would anyone think that?

Touche, good sir, touche!

Offline Leslieann

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #18 on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 20:26:28 »
My Rama, that I paid 3.5x it's worth failed beyond repair last night. It was less than 90 days old. I have absolutely no recourse. It was purchased "as is" in Korea.

It's not unfixable.
It can almost certainly be repaired by someone qualified or you can make a new pcb or simply hardwire it (good luck doing that with a Topre). Regardless, as -Jerry- said, the case is where the value is. There's plenty of people on here that I'm sure can get it working again.

This is precisely the reason I try to keep people from buying so many rare "customs", were this something common it would be quite easy and cheap for you to fix yourself.
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Offline typo

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #19 on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 21:13:57 »
You know what? I fully agree with all of you! I know i overreacted and spewed trash out of my mouth in public. I apologize. I was very bummed. I know electronics pretty well. The controller bit it. I cannot seem to find that IC anywhere. Not Mouser ETC. TBH, I did not really like 65% anyways. Yes, I am an idiot. this is true. Walie thank you very much for good input here! I prefer uniform 45G though. not messing with you, just stating my preference.

Okay, so you are not going to believe this. As you well know I enjoy backlit boards. As you are also aware the topre RGB(Even mine) lacks a lot compared to a regular R2. Today of all things I discovered Cherry Speed. I feel it is a dead ringer for 45G Topre switches. Many may disagree. So I needed to find a good board with them then. Enter the Corsair K70 MKII SE. To me it is a dead ringer for the R2SA-US4-IV, with somewhat better build quality to boot! It has nice "discreet" media keys and does not appear to be a Childs toy. Seeing as I know a district manager at Best Buy I picked it much earlier today for about half of retail. I cannot complain thus far. I realize i just did a 360 here. for the "price" however I am not complaining. it even sounds like the Topre. Thwack. I will still do my best to repair the Rama of course. I have enough keyboards anyhow. I actually like this strangely enough. I just typed this on it. I used a wood wrist rest in lieu of the plastic one supplied. For the money, i am now feeling something better. notice the change in my tone? Yes, I know it is junk. Okay. It seems viable as of now to me. The thing over topre is it is backlit very well and not the topre RGB. I think some of you might be surprised. Plus I have not checked my WPM yet but it seems like I am flying on this thing. I am happier now.

I really appreciate that you folks did not go nuts on me(I deserved it quite frankly). I apologize for my original post starting this thread. I got off on the wrong foor due to sadness/anger getting the best of me. If you look at all of my history here you will see sometimes I do bait people but i have never done something like this. I am not asking anyone to forgive me. It is unforgivable quite frankly. This is a public forum and i should know better regardless of how i am feeling. my sincere apologies to all of this community for having read the garbage which had spewed forth from my fingers.


I am content now. I am just going to forget this thread and put it behind me. Feel free to continue to discuss it without me if you all wish. Even if you wish to defame me I deserve it.

Edit: I just took calipers to the Corsair PBT Doubleshot keycaps. They are all about 2.15 +/-MM thick! That is not really bad at all IMO.
« Last Edit: Fri, 17 April 2020, 23:03:01 by typo »

Offline cari66ean

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #20 on: Sun, 19 April 2020, 06:21:43 »
When it comes to tactile... yeah I'd say Topre > MX. Too bad I kinda prefer linear so MX it is. I should probably sell my HHKB at some point before it's turning into dust.

Offline typo

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #21 on: Thu, 23 April 2020, 06:53:20 »
That seems like a very poor trade off to me but to each there own. I would actually say Topre is pretty linear. Unfortunately I just made a key Topre of mine extremely Tactile. I just think any MX period is horrible. wobble and all.

Offline cari66ean

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #22 on: Thu, 23 April 2020, 13:42:45 »
Topre almost linear? How?? Compared to the MX tactiles which usually start out linear, then have a shorter tactile bump in them, the tactile "bump" of the Topre switches starts right from the beginning of the actuation from zero force up to its peak and then falls down very much like sine wave.

Numbers:

MX Blue:
- starting up at around 30-35g
- rising linearly up to 40g at around 1mm
- then a "bump" which is basically still linear but steeper up to a peak of 60g at 1.75mm
- then falls back down to 50g and is back to linear from around 2.25mm until the end
- Summary: linear with a short bump from effectively 40-60g and then back to linear

Topre 55g:
- sine like rise from 0g up to a peak of 70g at around 1,2mm
- slow sine like drop down to 55g at around 3,3mm
- Summary: hooooge but long drawn bump... smooth but very very hard not to bottom out due to the sharp rise in force that is needed to overcome the bump and the "free fall" effect that comes afterwards.

So that part from 1,2mm till the end might be what you're referring to as linear - but that is not "the bump". The tactility comes before that from 0-1,2mm and that thing is quite the bump.

For me personally though that "free fall" making not-bottoming out close to impossible is what I don't like about Topre. I have a 20 MX tactiles switch-tester right next to me and in terms of feeling and the smoothness of the bump none of them reach Topre. Most of them feel like there's some kind of sand corn trapped within the switch. But I simply hate that free fall and bottoming out. Therefore it's MX linear for me: just as smooth as Topre and nothing forcing me to do a harsh bottoming out.
« Last Edit: Thu, 23 April 2020, 13:51:59 by cari66ean »

Offline Maledicted

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #23 on: Thu, 23 April 2020, 13:47:38 »
Topre almost linear? How?? Compared to the MX tactiles which usually start out linear, then have a shorter tactile bump in them, the tactile "bump" of the Topre switches starts right from the beginning of the actuation from zero force up to its peak and then falls down very much like sine wave.

Numbers:

MX Blue:
- starting up at around 30-35g
- rising linearly up to 40g at around 1mm
- then a "bump" which is basically still linear but steeper up to a peak of 60g at 1.75mm
- then falls back down to 50g and is back to linear from around 2.25mm until the end
- Summary: linear with a short bump from effectively 40-60g and then back to linear

Topre 55g:
- sine like rise from 0g up to a peak of 70g at around 1,2mm
- slow sine like drop to 55g at around 3,3mm
- Summary: hooooge but long drawn bump... smooth but very very hard not to bottom out due to the sharp rise in force that is needed to overcome the bump and the "free fall" effect that comes afterwards.

That "free fall" making not-bottoming out close to impossible is what I personally don't like about Topre. I have a 20 MX tactiles switch-tester right next to me and in terms of feeling and the smoothness of the bump none of them reach to Topre. Most of them feel like there's some kind of sand corn trapped within the switch. But I simply hate that free fall and bottoming out. Therefore it's MX linear for me: just as smooth as Topre and nothing forcing me to do a harsh bottoming out.

Which tactiles have you got in that tester? I should really explore more of those, and linears, even though I'll likely never use either more than clickies. I didn't mind the box tactiles in terms of feel, sure beats out Cherry MX sand by a mile.

Offline cari66ean

  • Posts: 26
Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #24 on: Thu, 23 April 2020, 16:42:08 »
Topre almost linear? How?? Compared to the MX tactiles which usually start out linear, then have a shorter tactile bump in them, the tactile "bump" of the Topre switches starts right from the beginning of the actuation from zero force up to its peak and then falls down very much like sine wave.

Numbers:

MX Blue:
- starting up at around 30-35g
- rising linearly up to 40g at around 1mm
- then a "bump" which is basically still linear but steeper up to a peak of 60g at 1.75mm
- then falls back down to 50g and is back to linear from around 2.25mm until the end
- Summary: linear with a short bump from effectively 40-60g and then back to linear

Topre 55g:
- sine like rise from 0g up to a peak of 70g at around 1,2mm
- slow sine like drop to 55g at around 3,3mm
- Summary: hooooge but long drawn bump... smooth but very very hard not to bottom out due to the sharp rise in force that is needed to overcome the bump and the "free fall" effect that comes afterwards.

That "free fall" making not-bottoming out close to impossible is what I personally don't like about Topre. I have a 20 MX tactiles switch-tester right next to me and in terms of feeling and the smoothness of the bump none of them reach to Topre. Most of them feel like there's some kind of sand corn trapped within the switch. But I simply hate that free fall and bottoming out. Therefore it's MX linear for me: just as smooth as Topre and nothing forcing me to do a harsh bottoming out.

Which tactiles have you got in that tester? I should really explore more of those, and linears, even though I'll likely never use either more than clickies. I didn't mind the box tactiles in terms of feel, sure beats out Cherry MX sand by a mile.

Phew... all kinds of standard tactiles really. Cherry Brown, White, Grey, Gaterons, Aliaz, Zealios, seveal Box and non-Box Kailhs off the top of my head but nothing that came out within the last year.

But from all those my favorites would probably be the Aliaz ones. The tactility is pretty low with those but at the same time clean and short... it feels like a small pulse going through your fingers though it's not as low as Browns for instance. Also due to the bump being relatively short and early it slows you down quite early and you also get a lot of remaining space until hitting the bottom so they are really good at keeping you from bottoming out. Also the bump is not too excessive which with some other tactile switches almost makes you feel "stuck" if you're not pressing hard enough or not fully releasing the switch. Zealios kinda feel that way, though they are probably some of the better ones. But still all in all they have this slight "getting stuck" feel as well as making you bottom out easier than the Aliaz.

Cherry MX Clears and Greys have a slightly more drawn out curvier bump a bit similar to the Topres. Though that's really just "a bit" and only when in direct comparison to the many "short pulse" tactiles. I would not call them exactly smooth or a pleasure to type on, but I do like that they are also preventing you from bottoming out quite well, especially compared to the Topres of course.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #25 on: Thu, 23 April 2020, 16:44:48 »
Phew... all kinds of standard tactiles really. Cherry Brown, White, Grey, Gaterons, Aliaz, Zealios, seveal Box and non-Box Kailhs off the top of my head but nothing that came out within the last year.

But from all those my favorites would probably be the Aliaz ones. The tactility is pretty low with those but at the same time clean and short... it feels like a small pulse going through your fingers though it's not as low as Browns for instance. Also due to the bump being relatively short and early it slows you down quite early and you also get a lot of remaining space until hitting the bottom so they are really good at keeping you from bottoming out. Also the bump is not too excessive which with some other tactile switches almost makes you feel "stuck" if you're not pressing hard enough or not fully releasing the switch. Zealios kinda feel that way, though they are probably some of the better ones. But still all in all they have this slight "getting stuck" feel as well as making you bottom out easier than the Aliaz.

Cherry MX Clears and Greys have a slightly more drawn out curvier bump a bit similar to the Topres. Though that's really just "a bit" and only when in direct comparison to the many "short pulse" tactiles. I would not call them exactly smooth or a pleasure to type on, but I do like that they are also preventing you from bottoming out quite well, especially compared to the Topres of course.

I bottom out with everything, intentionally, so I imagine that my experience would be different as a clicky guy. lol Interesting insights. Thank you.

Offline cari66ean

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #26 on: Thu, 23 April 2020, 17:11:59 »
I'm not an anti-bottom-out guy by any means. I just like it when I can focus on lightly touching the keys from time to time which gives off less of a harsh to no bottom-out. Kinda like "cruising mode".

Now this is very easy and straight foward with linears - you only need to get used to not getting any kind of tactile feedback at the actuation point and thus try not to miss keys.

With tactiles I think it highly depends. Some like the Aliaz, MX Clears and Greys kind of automatically stop you from bottoming out. The ratio between the spring weights (and their force curves) and the bumps is kind of balanced... you don't need a boatload of force to overcome the bump and there's no "free fall" afterwards but more like a cushion to catch you.

Topre is the exact opposite... you need a lot of force (relatively speaking) to overcome the bump and then you kinda crash into the bottom. Now matter how much you try to adapt your typing the stroke always ends up being the same. I do imagine them being quite amazing though when spring swapped to heavier springs that prevent you from bottoming out (though admittedly I've never looked into that option).

Offline typo

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #27 on: Thu, 23 April 2020, 22:12:26 »
I would swap the spring but I really want like 20G! I hate bottoming out as well. That too is my only caveat with Topre. It is unavoidable. Although a silent board, then O-ringed and lubed, you barely realize it is bottoming out anymore. I went so far to have made a titanium custom case for Topre full size boards. there are tiny tolerances from board to board so tiny gaps but not worth $$$$ to have a case made for each board. the case costs 10x the price of a board. It is because it was ordered on the "premonition" of a sample of a huge order.  these fabs do not do one off's.  I should have worded the title of this thread differently in retrospect because it was kind of inflammatory. I mean I enjoy the typing experience of Topre. i still have many MX boards because there are simply much better built boards. The "quality" of a topre 104UB LE for $315 is a "joke" IMHO. YMMV.

Maybe someone can help me? I did not want to start another thread and be a serial thread starter. I do not know how to tell what actuation point the board it on. I keep getting mistypes. It seems to me every time I press the button the actuation reverts to the same? Odd enough... Yes, I have read the very short translated manual. Thank you all.

Offline cari66ean

  • Posts: 26
Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #28 on: Fri, 24 April 2020, 07:21:28 »
Actually I've looked around a bit... there are these replacement BKE rubber domes for Topre available. There's an ultra light (which should be a bit lighter than the Topre 45g). Maybe that coupled with a stiffer spring at I'd say 60-70g range - or perhaps even progressive springs that get significantly heavier towards the bottom would actually make for a tactile switch with a rather linear force curve after the bump as opposed to the falling curve.

I know it would be heavier than those "20g" but honestly the reason why I think Topre feels so heavy is not because of the dome/spring but because of the unavoidable acceleration towards the bottom and then bottoming out hard.

I just pressed individual linear as well as tactile MX switches against the 45g Topres and the results are really surprising me:
- NK Creams get depressed until about 3mm until the Topre switch gets over the bump and bottoms out
- Tealios almost compress entirely (it's a very even match) before the Topre gets over the bump and bottoms out
- Gateron Black Inks compress somewhere between the Creams and Tealios
- 78g Zealio barely budges
- 67g Zealio also barely budges (=the bump on the 67g takes noticeably more force than the 45g Topre)
- 65g Zealio gets over its tactile bump and compresses the Topre closer to it's bottom
- 62g Zealio bottoms out before it compresses the Topre

Now here's the funny thing: when compressing the Topre very very slowly (3 seconds or so) it indeed almost feels somewhat linear (that's mostly because of its smooth long drawn out bump) and roughly similar in weight to Tealios - so personally I think very light weight! The same goes when comparing them to the Zealios. Pressing slowly it feels indeed somewehre in the ballpark between the 62g-65g ones, so very light in my opinion. However, when tapping the switches like you normally do when typing and the bottoming out of the Topres come into play, they feel way way heavier than each of those.

That's why I really think that heavier springs in the Topre might actually make them feel lighter by slowing down the free fall after the bump and thus make you bottom-out softer or possibly even lets you control whether you bottom out or not.

Offline typo

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #29 on: Fri, 24 April 2020, 09:09:40 »
cari, So what exactly combination would you recommend I use? Dome mat and springs? With the O-rings lubed on a silent board 85% of the time I do not bottom out anymore. I have been touch typing over 55 years. I just barely "flick" them at over 170WPM. I am moving to fast to press them very long at all. Not long enough to bottom out. In my case, I think lighter would help me. If they are selling 55G, people are typing improperly IMO.  Blacks is really typing improperly IMO. True, one shall not bottom out but if you barely "flick" the keys lighter would be less fatiguing at the least. Do you still recommend your setup for me now that you know this about me?

I got the actuation where I want it. It is dumb though. There is no way of knowing where you put it. All the lock LED's blink but they do so the same number of times on each setting so I do not see any point in that.

Offline cari66ean

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #30 on: Fri, 24 April 2020, 10:04:49 »
I can't really tell to be honest. I've used my HHKB for many years before switching over to linear MX about 2 years ago. I feel that as you say I can just lightly flick the keys here without bottoming out (or at least not hard) with reasonably light and smooth linears.

To be fair I haven't tried o-rings on the Topre though I'm certain that it would improve bottoming out (while at the same time reducing travel). So would probably replacing the domes and springs.

But at the same time there's probably just no going back for me to traditional layout keybords with a row stagger. I prefer split ergos like the Corne too much as to go back. So buttery smooth, lubed MX linears it is for me.
« Last Edit: Fri, 24 April 2020, 10:06:30 by cari66ean »

Offline typo

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #31 on: Fri, 24 April 2020, 15:42:57 »
Oh, Split ergo. gotcha. Yeah, no going back from that. the best. Problem is needs to be nickel spring for capacitive. Most springs are steel or gold plated. Plus concave spring. where to get even? I have Japanese layout. so it is a bit novel at least.

Offline cari66ean

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #32 on: Mon, 27 April 2020, 05:17:25 »
Oh, Split ergo. gotcha. Yeah, no going back from that. the best.

Why do I sense sarkasm here? Hmm...

Problem is needs to be nickel spring for capacitive. Most springs are steel or gold plated. Plus concave spring. where to get even? I have Japanese layout. so it is a bit novel at least.

There are Topre replacement springs as well as the BKE replacement rubber domes available actually.

Offline typo

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #33 on: Mon, 27 April 2020, 19:18:24 »
No, i meant split ergo is really great! I was completely serious! If I could get the hang of Ergodox I would be using it right now!

Offline Polymer

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #34 on: Mon, 27 April 2020, 19:35:37 »
Either you're both trolling or both don't understand how Topre works..

Offline treeleaf64

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #35 on: Mon, 27 April 2020, 20:51:06 »
So...
Did you end up throwing away your hundreds of boards, or not? Lol.

Offline cari66ean

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #36 on: Tue, 28 April 2020, 03:41:15 »
Either you're both trolling or both don't understand how Topre works..

Oh do enlighten us.

Offline walie

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #37 on: Tue, 28 April 2020, 07:57:57 »
Either you're both trolling or both don't understand how Topre works..

no kidding.

Offline Polymer

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #38 on: Tue, 28 April 2020, 13:03:42 »
Either you're both trolling or both don't understand how Topre works..

Oh do enlighten us.

*HOOK*  Ok. 

So the internal spring on a Topre switch isn't there to provide resistance, it is there for actuation, so you'd be pretty stupid to try to mess with that mechanism.  You can probably try but more than likely, you'll fail.  If you can find the right spring that coveys the right level of signal while changing how stiff/resistant it is, great....but probably a big fail as far as how much work to put in vs. gain. 

The smart way to do what you're describing is simply use a spring like they do for the space bar...or the springs that come with NIZ/Plum which fit around the Topre slider under the keycap.  This adds resistance and makes the switch feel more linear and obviously with a strong enough spring you can probably get an effect where you minimize the collapse....and you're not compromising how the switch actually actuates. 

The Topre feel is because of the DOME.  The collapse is 100% as a result of the dome.  The spring for the switch itself plays no part in the resistance level of the switch. 

And how you're internalizing why the switch is heavy is wrong.  All of the weight of Topre is basically "popping" the bubble you sit on.  In otherwords, it requires a certain amount of force for the dome to collapse..once it does, the rest is a free fall.    Have you ever seen a Topre Force Curve?  If you actually use static weights you will see, the switch is not heavier than the ones you've described, you just don't understand how the mechanism works.  For 45g Topre, 45g (Plus or minus a bit) is all you need for the dome to completely collapse and for you to bottom out. 

What is really happening is with other switches your start up force is lower...so you have momentum.  And depending on how you're measuring a switch weight, you might be looking at the weight at BOTTOM out.  So lets say in a linear force graph you start off lower and get higher as the switch gets pressed further.  So you combine those factors and  you have a switch that might feel lighter even those it has higher peaks in actual force needed to move the switch.   

Offline cari66ean

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #39 on: Wed, 29 April 2020, 08:11:38 »
*HOOK*  Ok. 

So the internal spring on a Topre switch isn't there to provide resistance, it is there for actuation, so you'd be pretty stupid to try to mess with that mechanism.  You can probably try but more than likely, you'll fail.  If you can find the right spring that coveys the right level of signal while changing how stiff/resistant it is, great....but probably a big fail as far as how much work to put in vs. gain. 

The smart way to do what you're describing is simply use a spring like they do for the space bar...or the springs that come with NIZ/Plum which fit around the Topre slider under the keycap.  This adds resistance and makes the switch feel more linear and obviously with a strong enough spring you can probably get an effect where you minimize the collapse....and you're not compromising how the switch actually actuates. 

The Topre feel is because of the DOME.  The collapse is 100% as a result of the dome.  The spring for the switch itself plays no part in the resistance level of the switch. 

I was imprecisely referring to the extra slider springs.

And how you're internalizing why the switch is heavy is wrong.  All of the weight of Topre is basically "popping" the bubble you sit on.  In otherwords, it requires a certain amount of force for the dome to collapse..once it does, the rest is a free fall.    Have you ever seen a Topre Force Curve?  If you actually use static weights you will see, the switch is not heavier than the ones you've described, you just don't understand how the mechanism works.  For 45g Topre, 45g (Plus or minus a bit) is all you need for the dome to completely collapse and for you to bottom out. 

What is really happening is with other switches your start up force is lower...so you have momentum.  And depending on how you're measuring a switch weight, you might be looking at the weight at BOTTOM out.  So lets say in a linear force graph you start off lower and get higher as the switch gets pressed further.  So you combine those factors and  you have a switch that might feel lighter even those it has higher peaks in actual force needed to move the switch.   

There's essentially nothing contradicting to what I said. In case it was confusing I only mentioned the spring weights of some switches so you know what switch I am talking about and not that it bares any comparison between e.g. a 65g bottom out MX spring and the 45g Topre dome.

I also explained further up that the tactile event of a Topre begins pretty much from the start in a sine like wave and afterwards has a free fall essentially. For reference again:

Topre 55g:
- sine like rise from 0g up to a peak of 70g at around 1,2mm
- slow sine like drop to 55g at around 3,3mm
- Summary: hooooge but long drawn bump... smooth but very very hard not to bottom out due to the sharp rise in force that is needed to overcome the bump and the "free fall" effect that comes afterwards.

Based off of one of the Topre 55g graphs available such as:



I also know that the 62g Zealio has a much lighter initial spring force. And it doesn't change the fact that when pressed against each other slowly the the 62g Zealio pretty much bottoms out entirely before the Topre 45g compresses over its tactile bump. And it makes completely sense when looking at the force chart. The bump of the Zealio is at around 40g, while around 45g at the bottom. Just as a note: I've always felt Zeal switches to be on the lighter side just as I mentioned earlier that for me 62g and 65g Zealios are very light switches.



The 67g Zealio compresses just a little (=still lower initial spring force) but the force required for the tactile bump is now higher than that of the Topre (50g vs. 45g) and that makes the Topre bottom-out without overcoming the bump on the Zealio. Makes perfectly sense too:



With the 78g Zealio the initial spring force however is already so high that it doesn't even budge when pressed against the Topre 45g.

So tell me where there is anything wrong with my comparison on the switch weights? Where exactly have I said that the Topre is "heavier" than the ones I've described? Except maybe for the 62 and 65g Zealios which are indeed a close call and as I've already mentioned _are_ light switches?

In essence all that I was trying to say is on the contrary, that the Topre 45g is actually a "very light switch". And when pressed slowly you do indeed notice that. The force required to overcome the tactile bump is not very high. However, it's that free fall after the bump when typing quickly that leads to a hard bottoming-out that makes the typing feel heavy. The key words here are "feel" and "hard bottoming-out" when referring to Topre being "heavy".

And that's exactly what I've described earlier. To remedy this (if you don't like it - like me) I suggested the BKE ultra-light domes to reduce the tactile bump a little more if needed and paradoxically adding heavier springs to increase the force curve after the bump so in essence reducing/eliminating the "free fall". So while actually adding force (from the spring), the Topres might actually "feel" lighter to type on due to the reduction of the impact when bottoming-out.
« Last Edit: Wed, 29 April 2020, 09:04:34 by cari66ean »

Offline Polymer

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #40 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 03:37:45 »

I was imprecisely referring to the extra slider springs.

The slider spring is only on the spacebar...the rest of the keyboard doesn't have that.  NO idea why anyone would assume that's what you're referring to because they don't come with that. 
 
There's essentially nothing contradicting to what I said. In case it was confusing I only mentioned the spring weights of some switches so you know what switch I am talking about and not that it bares any comparison between e.g. a 65g bottom out MX spring and the 45g Topre dome.

You said a heavier spring might make it feel lighter..that is not true..
this is what you said
"That's why I really think that heavier springs in the Topre might actually make them feel lighter by slowing down the free fall after the bump and thus make you bottom-out softer or possibly even lets you control whether you bottom out or not."

NOT true.  You've just worded it incorrectly..you've somehow associated the weight with lessening the bottom out feel because to you bottoming out makes it feel heavy...

In essence all that I was trying to say is on the contrary, that the Topre 45g is actually a "very light switch". And when pressed slowly you do indeed notice that. The force required to overcome the tactile bump is not very high. However, it's that free fall after the bump when typing quickly that leads to a hard bottoming-out that makes the typing feel heavy. The key words here are "feel" and "hard bottoming-out" when referring to Topre being "heavy".

And that's exactly what I've described earlier. To remedy this (if you don't like it - like me) I suggested the BKE ultra-light domes to reduce the tactile bump a little more if needed and paradoxically adding heavier springs to increase the force curve after the bump so in essence reducing/eliminating the "free fall". So while actually adding force (from the spring), the Topres might actually "feel" lighter to type on due to the reduction of the impact when bottoming-out.

Ok..well if bottoming out makes them feel heavy to you that's really just you...

I don't know why you keep referring to these springs...They don't come with Topre so there would be no reason to assume you mean these NiZ/Plum springs...

But let me ask you this...

Why would anyone want to turn their Topre into a linear switch?  Wouldn't you be better off buying a linear switch for that purpose?  I mean, MX silents or any linear silent for that matter, can feel/sound a bit like Topre but without the tactile part and with less thock..but an ultra light Topre with an add on spring will feel very much the same..

Offline typo

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #41 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 04:21:47 »
Amen Polymer! everyone knows this. too many idiots on the internet.

Offline cari66ean

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #42 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 04:29:58 »

I was imprecisely referring to the extra slider springs.

The slider spring is only on the spacebar...the rest of the keyboard doesn't have that.  NO idea why anyone would assume that's what you're referring to because they don't come with that. 

I don't know why you keep referring to these springs...They don't come with Topre so there would be no reason to assume you mean these NiZ/Plum springs...

Why are you so hung up on the springs? I know they don't come with Topre (other than the space bar) but you can get them. So what's your point?


You said a heavier spring might make it feel lighter..that is not true..
this is what you said
"That's why I really think that heavier springs in the Topre might actually make them feel lighter by slowing down the free fall after the bump and thus make you bottom-out softer or possibly even lets you control whether you bottom out or not."

NOT true.  You've just worded it incorrectly..you've somehow associated the weight with lessening the bottom out feel because to you bottoming out makes it feel heavy...

Why are you so hung up on "weight" now? Are you just trying to make a point? Are you simply ignoring the parts with the force curves and the comparison in force required to slowly press all the switches, but still pointing out that I'm somehow missing the fact about weight not being the same as the harder bottoming-out feel?

I specifically said it "feels heavier" to type on due to the >>harder bottom-out<< and not the >>spring/dome weight<<, and you're somehow trying to make it appear as I didn't say that or I'm not aware of that, wtf?!

And yes adding a spring that reduces the free-fall might make typing "feel lighter" because of the lighter bottom-out, yes. I know that when you measure it, the force is obviously higher but that's not what I was referring to when I said it >>feels<< lighter or heavier to type on. Don't try being a smart-ass by getting hung-up on semantics.

But let me ask you this...

Why would anyone want to turn their Topre into a linear switch?  Wouldn't you be better off buying a linear switch for that purpose?  I mean, MX silents or any linear silent for that matter, can feel/sound a bit like Topre but without the tactile part and with less thock..but an ultra light Topre with an add on spring will feel very much the same..

First off why ultra light BKE domes? Well technically they're only a little lighter at 40g and OP said they'd prefer it if they were generally lighter, so I mentioned them to him (plus I also prefer lighter switches).

And, man... I've also mentioned above that I use linear MX switches for exactly that reason. But, still... no, by reducing the free-fall after the bump by adding springs, they would not automatically turn into a linear switch. The bump at the beginning would still be there, which still makes it tactile and obviously different to a linear switch.
« Last Edit: Thu, 30 April 2020, 04:48:40 by cari66ean »

Offline Polymer

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #43 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 04:45:06 »

First off why ultra light BKE domes? Well technically they're only a little lighter at 40g and OP said they'd prefer it if they were generally lighter, so I mentioned them to him.

And, man... I've also mentioned above that I use linear MX switches for exactly that reason. But, still... no, by reducing the free-fall after the bump by adding springs, they would not automatically turn into a linear switch. The bump at the beginning would still be there, which still makes it tactile and obviously different to a linear switch.

You mentioned the ultra lights or lighter domes...I don't know if you've used light domes but they lose a lot of tactility.
Obviously with a heavier dome a heavier external spring would be required to make it feel more linear.

Why am I caught up on springs?  Because I don't know if you're just correcting yourself after the fact but it certainly didn't sound like it...and typo was talking about the internal spring as well and you didn't seem to clarify what you meant..

Simply:
Lighter the dome, the less tactile it'll be.  And with springs, you'll completely lose any tactility. 
Heavier the dome, the more external spring "weight" it'll take to make it feel more linear or lessen the bottom out.

Let me ask you this...Have you actually tried the external springs before?  I have...it doesn't take much for it to completely change the feel...That's why even though I think NiZ/Plum at 35g is way too light, adding the springs to make it "45g" completely kills the feel for it....Admittedly, I have never put the NiZ springs onto my 45g Topre but knowing it'll change the tactility, it isn't something I want....plus why would I want to add weight to it? 

Offline cari66ean

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #44 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 05:06:54 »

First off why ultra light BKE domes? Well technically they're only a little lighter at 40g and OP said they'd prefer it if they were generally lighter, so I mentioned them to him.

And, man... I've also mentioned above that I use linear MX switches for exactly that reason. But, still... no, by reducing the free-fall after the bump by adding springs, they would not automatically turn into a linear switch. The bump at the beginning would still be there, which still makes it tactile and obviously different to a linear switch.

You mentioned the ultra lights or lighter domes...I don't know if you've used light domes but they lose a lot of tactility.
Obviously with a heavier dome a heavier external spring would be required to make it feel more linear.

Why am I caught up on springs?  Because I don't know if you're just correcting yourself after the fact but it certainly didn't sound like it...and typo was talking about the internal spring as well and you didn't seem to clarify what you meant..

Simply:
Lighter the dome, the less tactile it'll be.  And with springs, you'll completely lose any tactility. 
Heavier the dome, the more external spring "weight" it'll take to make it feel more linear or lessen the bottom out.

Let me ask you this...Have you actually tried the external springs before?  I have...it doesn't take much for it to completely change the feel...That's why even though I think NiZ/Plum at 35g is way too light, adding the springs to make it "45g" completely kills the feel for it....Admittedly, I have never put the NiZ springs onto my 45g Topre but knowing it'll change the tactility, it isn't something I want....plus why would I want to add weight to it? 

Actually with the lighter domes you still are going to have the same sine like bump/wave shape at the beginning, just that the peak is going to be lower. Obviously that translates to being "less tactile" of course but essentially it just means it needs less force to overcome the bump. Since I like lighter switches anyway I'd be ok with that.

I've only tried the springs from the space bar on regular keys on 45g Topre and yes I prefer that the free-fall is lessened. They still could be a little heavier to reduce the free-fall a bit more or more preferably: those same springs in combination with lighter domes would indeed be perfect for me (so: lighter actuation and heavier spring force towards the bottom to cushion the bottom-out).
« Last Edit: Thu, 30 April 2020, 05:08:48 by cari66ean »

Offline Polymer

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #45 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 10:17:59 »

First off why ultra light BKE domes? Well technically they're only a little lighter at 40g and OP said they'd prefer it if they were generally lighter, so I mentioned them to him.

And, man... I've also mentioned above that I use linear MX switches for exactly that reason. But, still... no, by reducing the free-fall after the bump by adding springs, they would not automatically turn into a linear switch. The bump at the beginning would still be there, which still makes it tactile and obviously different to a linear switch.

You mentioned the ultra lights or lighter domes...I don't know if you've used light domes but they lose a lot of tactility.
Obviously with a heavier dome a heavier external spring would be required to make it feel more linear.

Why am I caught up on springs?  Because I don't know if you're just correcting yourself after the fact but it certainly didn't sound like it...and typo was talking about the internal spring as well and you didn't seem to clarify what you meant..

Simply:
Lighter the dome, the less tactile it'll be.  And with springs, you'll completely lose any tactility. 
Heavier the dome, the more external spring "weight" it'll take to make it feel more linear or lessen the bottom out.

Let me ask you this...Have you actually tried the external springs before?  I have...it doesn't take much for it to completely change the feel...That's why even though I think NiZ/Plum at 35g is way too light, adding the springs to make it "45g" completely kills the feel for it....Admittedly, I have never put the NiZ springs onto my 45g Topre but knowing it'll change the tactility, it isn't something I want....plus why would I want to add weight to it? 

Actually with the lighter domes you still are going to have the same sine like bump/wave shape at the beginning, just that the peak is going to be lower. Obviously that translates to being "less tactile" of course but essentially it just means it needs less force to overcome the bump. Since I like lighter switches anyway I'd be ok with that.

I've only tried the springs from the space bar on regular keys on 45g Topre and yes I prefer that the free-fall is lessened. They still could be a little heavier to reduce the free-fall a bit more or more preferably: those same springs in combination with lighter domes would indeed be perfect for me (so: lighter actuation and heavier spring force towards the bottom to cushion the bottom-out).

Have you actually tried lighter domes?  If you look at the bump it is practically non-existent.  A common complaint for the variable Topre is the light keys take a bit of getting used to because people actuate the keys without intending to...this is while your fingers are AT REST.  So if simply resting your fingers on the keys is pressing them without intending to, you lose that bump...
Now combine that with a heavy external spring..you won't have the bump because the spring will prevent the drop off..again, depends on the spring, weight, etc...You could easily make the force graph look linear with this type of setup. 

Offline armani

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #46 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 15:00:00 »
I was thinking about getting a topre, but I do not like the feel of rubber domes. I know they're good and all, but still...

Offline Polymer

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #47 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 15:34:29 »
I was thinking about getting a topre, but I do not like the feel of rubber domes. I know they're good and all, but still...

Which part of Rubber Domes don't you like? 

Generally what people dislike is:  Instability.  The squishy uneven bottom out feeling.  The fact that you have to hit bottom for actuation.  Plus generally they're cheaply made in general so they feel meh...

So if you remove all of those, which part do you hate?

Do you like smooth MX switches?  What if you had one smoother than MX?  More stability?  More reliability?  Doesn't require bottoming out so responsiveness is quick.  No chance of chatter either. 

I'm not saying Topre is for everyone....MX switches are also very nice..but what people dislike about Rubber Domes tends to be what they're used to which is just a cheap iffy keyboard.

Offline armani

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #48 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 15:36:52 »
First part applies to me. I have used some good rubber domes, but I heavily prefer ALPS switches.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #49 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 15:58:24 »
I was thinking about getting a topre, but I do not like the feel of rubber domes. I know they're good and all, but still...

Which part of Rubber Domes don't you like? 

Generally what people dislike is:  Instability.  The squishy uneven bottom out feeling.  The fact that you have to hit bottom for actuation.  Plus generally they're cheaply made in general so they feel meh...

So if you remove all of those, which part do you hate?

Do you like smooth MX switches?  What if you had one smoother than MX?  More stability?  More reliability?  Doesn't require bottoming out so responsiveness is quick.  No chance of chatter either. 

I'm not saying Topre is for everyone....MX switches are also very nice..but what people dislike about Rubber Domes tends to be what they're used to which is just a cheap iffy keyboard.

I haven't felt any MX switches that I would describe as particularly smooth. The linears are solidy mediocre though, in that regard.

Offline Polymer

  • Posts: 1472
Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #50 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 16:02:07 »
I was thinking about getting a topre, but I do not like the feel of rubber domes. I know they're good and all, but still...

Which part of Rubber Domes don't you like? 

Generally what people dislike is:  Instability.  The squishy uneven bottom out feeling.  The fact that you have to hit bottom for actuation.  Plus generally they're cheaply made in general so they feel meh...

So if you remove all of those, which part do you hate?

Do you like smooth MX switches?  What if you had one smoother than MX?  More stability?  More reliability?  Doesn't require bottoming out so responsiveness is quick.  No chance of chatter either. 

I'm not saying Topre is for everyone....MX switches are also very nice..but what people dislike about Rubber Domes tends to be what they're used to which is just a cheap iffy keyboard.

I haven't felt any MX switches that I would describe as particularly smooth. The linears are solidy mediocre though, in that regard.

You can get some pretty smooth feeling MX switches...Ones that have been used a lot or with lube (or both).  They're not as smooth as Topre but they're still pretty nice...

Offline Maledicted

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #51 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 16:08:41 »
You can get some pretty smooth feeling MX switches...Ones that have been used a lot or with lube (or both).  They're not as smooth as Topre but they're still pretty nice...

I have a Cherry MX red K70 I have used with my gaming rig for 6 or 7 years now. The switches still don't feel as nice as brand new Kailh box reds, and I haven't even tried the fancy modern boutique linears. I also don't bother with lubing anything either though. I see MX as the Honda Civic of switches. They do their jobs, and they do them well, there's just no polish or flair. The tactiles have a ... feeling, the linears are linear, and the clickies certainly click.

Offline cari66ean

  • Posts: 26
Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #52 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 17:59:41 »
I was thinking about getting a topre, but I do not like the feel of rubber domes. I know they're good and all, but still...

Which part of Rubber Domes don't you like? 

Generally what people dislike is:  Instability.  The squishy uneven bottom out feeling.  The fact that you have to hit bottom for actuation.  Plus generally they're cheaply made in general so they feel meh...

So if you remove all of those, which part do you hate?

Do you like smooth MX switches?  What if you had one smoother than MX?  More stability?  More reliability?  Doesn't require bottoming out so responsiveness is quick.  No chance of chatter either. 

I'm not saying Topre is for everyone....MX switches are also very nice..but what people dislike about Rubber Domes tends to be what they're used to which is just a cheap iffy keyboard.

If only one could type on Topre without bottoming-out :D.

Jokes aside: if pressed slowly the stroke on the Topre definitely feels more consistent and stable than even 'boutique' lubed linear MX switches. Those do come very close in terms of smoothness, though there's still a difference when compared in slow-mo.

The simple design on those big round Topre stems/sliders simply provides more stability and consistency even when pressed in odd directions. The rectangular stem on the MX switches simply can't compete with that (though there is progress been made with the round stem Box switches). Then of course you have the stems sliding against the leafs to make the switch actuate and that will always provide a bit of inconsistency and at least a minimum amount of friction. But I'm fairly happy with the smooth MX linears that have popped up in recent times.

Offline Nuclear Nachos

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #53 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 18:10:49 »
I agree with some parts, and disagree with others but thats okay. Its your opinion, and i cant force you to change that. But one thing topre boards cant compete with for mx is variety. You can get mechanical keyboards for under $50 new sometimes, which is far cheaper than topre. They might not be the greatest yes, but look at topre offerings for under $75. You also have such a wide variety of keycaps (ik topre to mx sliders exist, but thats another part to increase the price of topre and you have to buy seperately), and the dozens upon dozen different switches, mx is just more universal. At the end of the day, its just opinion, some like mx reds over everything, its personal opinions.

Offline Polymer

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #54 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 18:18:28 »
You can get some pretty smooth feeling MX switches...Ones that have been used a lot or with lube (or both).  They're not as smooth as Topre but they're still pretty nice...

I have a Cherry MX red K70 I have used with my gaming rig for 6 or 7 years now. The switches still don't feel as nice as brand new Kailh box reds, and I haven't even tried the fancy modern boutique linears. I also don't bother with lubing anything either though. I see MX as the Honda Civic of switches. They do their jobs, and they do them well, there's just no polish or flair. The tactiles have a ... feeling, the linears are linear, and the clickies certainly click.

MX to me is any of the Cherry and the clones..they're all the same thing just slight variations of the same switch...

Offline Maledicted

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #55 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 19:04:30 »
You can get some pretty smooth feeling MX switches...Ones that have been used a lot or with lube (or both).  They're not as smooth as Topre but they're still pretty nice...

I have a Cherry MX red K70 I have used with my gaming rig for 6 or 7 years now. The switches still don't feel as nice as brand new Kailh box reds, and I haven't even tried the fancy modern boutique linears. I also don't bother with lubing anything either though. I see MX as the Honda Civic of switches. They do their jobs, and they do them well, there's just no polish or flair. The tactiles have a ... feeling, the linears are linear, and the clickies certainly click.

MX to me is any of the Cherry and the clones..they're all the same thing just slight variations of the same switch...

Box switches aren't Cherry clones. You're of the opinion that Topre is smoother than the smoothest of the smooth boutique switches then? Just curious, haven't gotten to try Topre.

Offline treeleaf64

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #56 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 20:25:41 »
Topre's pretty darn smooth. Lubed Topre is even better.

Offline Polymer

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #57 on: Fri, 01 May 2020, 09:00:17 »
I was thinking about getting a topre, but I do not like the feel of rubber domes. I know they're good and all, but still...

Which part of Rubber Domes don't you like? 

Generally what people dislike is:  Instability.  The squishy uneven bottom out feeling.  The fact that you have to hit bottom for actuation.  Plus generally they're cheaply made in general so they feel meh...

So if you remove all of those, which part do you hate?

Do you like smooth MX switches?  What if you had one smoother than MX?  More stability?  More reliability?  Doesn't require bottoming out so responsiveness is quick.  No chance of chatter either. 

I'm not saying Topre is for everyone....MX switches are also very nice..but what people dislike about Rubber Domes tends to be what they're used to which is just a cheap iffy keyboard.

If only one could type on Topre without bottoming-out :D.

Jokes aside: if pressed slowly the stroke on the Topre definitely feels more consistent and stable than even 'boutique' lubed linear MX switches. Those do come very close in terms of smoothness, though there's still a difference when compared in slow-mo.

The simple design on those big round Topre stems/sliders simply provides more stability and consistency even when pressed in odd directions. The rectangular stem on the MX switches simply can't compete with that (though there is progress been made with the round stem Box switches). Then of course you have the stems sliding against the leafs to make the switch actuate and that will always provide a bit of inconsistency and at least a minimum amount of friction. But I'm fairly happy with the smooth MX linears that have popped up in recent times.

Who cares what it feels like in slo mo?  I mean, I get it...people nit pick on every detail but how often are you using a keyboard where you press it down slowly and that feel actually matters?  People have this same complaint about MX Browns..they just can't get that slow press feeling out of their head even though that's not how it feels during use.

I don't get the Topre joke..you'd never NOT want to bottom out with Topre...Its all about the thock.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #58 on: Fri, 01 May 2020, 09:20:14 »
I was thinking about getting a topre, but I do not like the feel of rubber domes. I know they're good and all, but still...

Which part of Rubber Domes don't you like? 

Generally what people dislike is:  Instability.  The squishy uneven bottom out feeling.  The fact that you have to hit bottom for actuation.  Plus generally they're cheaply made in general so they feel meh...

So if you remove all of those, which part do you hate?

Do you like smooth MX switches?  What if you had one smoother than MX?  More stability?  More reliability?  Doesn't require bottoming out so responsiveness is quick.  No chance of chatter either. 

I'm not saying Topre is for everyone....MX switches are also very nice..but what people dislike about Rubber Domes tends to be what they're used to which is just a cheap iffy keyboard.

If only one could type on Topre without bottoming-out :D.

Jokes aside: if pressed slowly the stroke on the Topre definitely feels more consistent and stable than even 'boutique' lubed linear MX switches. Those do come very close in terms of smoothness, though there's still a difference when compared in slow-mo.

The simple design on those big round Topre stems/sliders simply provides more stability and consistency even when pressed in odd directions. The rectangular stem on the MX switches simply can't compete with that (though there is progress been made with the round stem Box switches). Then of course you have the stems sliding against the leafs to make the switch actuate and that will always provide a bit of inconsistency and at least a minimum amount of friction. But I'm fairly happy with the smooth MX linears that have popped up in recent times.

Who cares what it feels like in slo mo?  I mean, I get it...people nit pick on every detail but how often are you using a keyboard where you press it down slowly and that feel actually matters?  People have this same complaint about MX Browns..they just can't get that slow press feeling out of their head even though that's not how it feels during use.

I don't get the Topre joke..you'd never NOT want to bottom out with Topre...Its all about the thock.

I agree in theory. I do think a lot of people probably do ignore how an actual real-world press feels vs their negative impression of a very slow/careful press. I still say browns feel terrible either way, they just feel a lot less terrible with actual presses than slow and careful nitpicking. Personal opinion.

Offline cari66ean

  • Posts: 26
Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #59 on: Fri, 01 May 2020, 10:52:17 »
I was thinking about getting a topre, but I do not like the feel of rubber domes. I know they're good and all, but still...

Which part of Rubber Domes don't you like? 

Generally what people dislike is:  Instability.  The squishy uneven bottom out feeling.  The fact that you have to hit bottom for actuation.  Plus generally they're cheaply made in general so they feel meh...

So if you remove all of those, which part do you hate?

Do you like smooth MX switches?  What if you had one smoother than MX?  More stability?  More reliability?  Doesn't require bottoming out so responsiveness is quick.  No chance of chatter either. 

I'm not saying Topre is for everyone....MX switches are also very nice..but what people dislike about Rubber Domes tends to be what they're used to which is just a cheap iffy keyboard.

If only one could type on Topre without bottoming-out :D.

Jokes aside: if pressed slowly the stroke on the Topre definitely feels more consistent and stable than even 'boutique' lubed linear MX switches. Those do come very close in terms of smoothness, though there's still a difference when compared in slow-mo.

The simple design on those big round Topre stems/sliders simply provides more stability and consistency even when pressed in odd directions. The rectangular stem on the MX switches simply can't compete with that (though there is progress been made with the round stem Box switches). Then of course you have the stems sliding against the leafs to make the switch actuate and that will always provide a bit of inconsistency and at least a minimum amount of friction. But I'm fairly happy with the smooth MX linears that have popped up in recent times.

Who cares what it feels like in slo mo?  I mean, I get it...people nit pick on every detail but how often are you using a keyboard where you press it down slowly and that feel actually matters?  People have this same complaint about MX Browns..they just can't get that slow press feeling out of their head even though that's not how it feels during use.

I don't get the Topre joke..you'd never NOT want to bottom out with Topre...Its all about the thock.

Man you're surely a nice guy, you just gotta stop these strawman arguments, reading bs on purpose into what others said and then getting all smart-a$$ over it.

I didn't nit pick. As I mentioned like a hundred times already I personally even prefer smooth MX linears, I just gave credit where credit is due. In practice the boutique MX switches do come very close and I did mention that.

Regarding that "Topre joke"... you mentioned it as one of the pros that you don't have to bottom-out to actuate the switch. I joked about that because you can't actually _not_ bottom them out. And yes, personally: I don't like the feeling of a hard bottoming-out like on Topre, despite it sounding nice. Also I can barely hear the thock on my HHKB over the key rattle lol.


I was thinking about getting a topre, but I do not like the feel of rubber domes. I know they're good and all, but still...

Which part of Rubber Domes don't you like? 

Generally what people dislike is:  Instability.  The squishy uneven bottom out feeling.  The fact that you have to hit bottom for actuation.  Plus generally they're cheaply made in general so they feel meh...

So if you remove all of those, which part do you hate?

Do you like smooth MX switches?  What if you had one smoother than MX?  More stability?  More reliability?  Doesn't require bottoming out so responsiveness is quick.  No chance of chatter either. 

I'm not saying Topre is for everyone....MX switches are also very nice..but what people dislike about Rubber Domes tends to be what they're used to which is just a cheap iffy keyboard.

If only one could type on Topre without bottoming-out :D.

Jokes aside: if pressed slowly the stroke on the Topre definitely feels more consistent and stable than even 'boutique' lubed linear MX switches. Those do come very close in terms of smoothness, though there's still a difference when compared in slow-mo.

The simple design on those big round Topre stems/sliders simply provides more stability and consistency even when pressed in odd directions. The rectangular stem on the MX switches simply can't compete with that (though there is progress been made with the round stem Box switches). Then of course you have the stems sliding against the leafs to make the switch actuate and that will always provide a bit of inconsistency and at least a minimum amount of friction. But I'm fairly happy with the smooth MX linears that have popped up in recent times.

Who cares what it feels like in slo mo?  I mean, I get it...people nit pick on every detail but how often are you using a keyboard where you press it down slowly and that feel actually matters?  People have this same complaint about MX Browns..they just can't get that slow press feeling out of their head even though that's not how it feels during use.

I don't get the Topre joke..you'd never NOT want to bottom out with Topre...Its all about the thock.

I agree in theory. I do think a lot of people probably do ignore how an actual real-world press feels vs their negative impression of a very slow/careful press. I still say browns feel terrible either way, they just feel a lot less terrible with actual presses than slow and careful nitpicking. Personal opinion.

Yeah... I'd say they are a tad smoother and consistent, especially when pressed in odd angles. It's probably due to that big round stem/slider compared to the rectangular MX stem and the lack of the stem having to slide on the leaf for actuation. Though that's compared to lubed Tealios, I don't have the H1 and Tangerines yet.

Still in practice when typing the difference is negligible and the the overall feel of the stroke is just so very very different to MX. The tactile bump is starting from 0 and rising in a sine like wave. Once you reach your peak it's getting into a free fall that makes you bottom out hard - if you want to or not. I personally don't like it despite having used my HHKB for around 10 years between 2007 and 2017.  Though from the force curves of the lighter 30g Topres I'd probably really enjoy those, especially combined with a spring to increase the force towards the bottom as discussed earlier in this thread.
« Last Edit: Fri, 01 May 2020, 11:06:26 by cari66ean »

Offline Polymer

  • Posts: 1472
Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #60 on: Fri, 01 May 2020, 17:17:30 »

Man you're surely a nice guy, you just gotta stop these strawman arguments, reading bs on purpose into what others said and then getting all smart-a$$ over it.

I didn't nit pick. As I mentioned like a hundred times already I personally even prefer smooth MX linears, I just gave credit where credit is due. In practice the boutique MX switches do come very close and I did mention that.

I'm not making a strawman argument...You made some comments and I corrected them.  Read your post as if you didn't write it.  What does it sound like?  And btw, the nitpicking is not just you, it is tons of other people that have done the same thing. 

Point is, you and many others, have made this observation about slowly pressing a key..but it serves no purpose because that isn't how they're used.  Granted, you can still completely dislike a switch as a result and that's fine but I'd rather measure something useful, such as when I'm using it.  If a switch in slo mo was the worst feeling switch ever, but the best when using it, would you like it?  I don't think that's possible but lets say it is.  The answer to me would be yes.  For some the answer would be no - They could never get over the feel of the switch in slo mo even though they love it in usage...Not saying that's you, saying that some people. 


Regarding that "Topre joke"... you mentioned it as one of the pros that you don't have to bottom-out to actuate the switch. I joked about that because you can't actually _not_ bottom them out. And yes, personally: I don't like the feeling of a hard bottoming-out like on Topre, despite it sounding nice. Also I can barely hear the thock on my HHKB over the key rattle lol.

Not bottoming out on them to actuate IS an advantage but you don't seem to understand why.  First off, because it is more responsive.  If you change the actuation to bottom out or with APC try a lower actuation level (deeper) then you'll see, it feels sluggish.  You'll eventually get used to it but that responsiveness is a bonus to many mech switches and one reason I like Topre.  The other is, that responsiveness is because it is electro capacitive which also means it will be reliable.  It also means reset and actuation are at the same point which may not mean anything to some but will for others.  And yes, very aware you can't stop yourself from bottoming out..I was one of the first people to call out people's BS when they claim they can.  30/35g Topre, sure, that's possible although hardly worth it.  45g is just not possible without typing at such a stupidly slow rate it isn't worth it. 

If you can't hear the thock on a HHKB that would be weird....it has the loudest thock out of all Topre keyboards..and one of the reasons people love it.  Other than the spacebar stabilizer rattling, there isn't too much rattling going on..there are little raindrop noises but honestly, that's one of the best parts of that keyboard for a lot of people.  It is also one reason why a good number of people prefer the standard HHKB to the Type-S..specifically because they love the sound. 


Though from the force curves of the lighter 30g Topres I'd probably really enjoy those, especially combined with a spring to increase the force towards the bottom as discussed earlier in this thread.

Try it out then..or get a NIZ..those are like 35g..you can put a heavy spring on there or put two of the springs they've included in there.  They make the switch feel linear (as I've already told you) and harder to bottom out because of all the resistance. 

Offline Leslieann

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #61 on: Fri, 01 May 2020, 21:53:10 »
Who cares what it feels like in slo mo?  I mean, I get it...people nit pick on every detail but how often are you using a keyboard where you press it down slowly and that feel actually matters?

It does matter.

You are correct in that it needs to feel good while fast and what can feel good slow may not feel good fast, but the switch that feels good doing both is going to be the one you prefer. You may not feel it consciously but you might subconsciously, fingers are extremely sensitive, there's a reason craftsmen use their fingers to check the surface of things and not just their eyes or even tools.

Are we reaching a point of diminishing returns, absolutely, but at the same time that should be celebrated. It wasn't long ago we only had a handful of switch options, now we have so many we can debate the finer points of them.
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/hand milled Vortex case, custom feet/paint/winkey blockoff plate, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, Type C, sound dampened,  Thick PBT caps (o-ringed), Cherry Jailhouse Blues w/lubed/clipped Cherry light springs | GMMK TKL | Magicforce 68 | YMDK75 | KBT Race S L.E. | Das Pro (Costar model) | GH60 | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline Polymer

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #62 on: Sat, 02 May 2020, 00:25:09 »
Who cares what it feels like in slo mo?  I mean, I get it...people nit pick on every detail but how often are you using a keyboard where you press it down slowly and that feel actually matters?

It does matter.

You are correct in that it needs to feel good while fast and what can feel good slow may not feel good fast, but the switch that feels good doing both is going to be the one you prefer. You may not feel it consciously but you might subconsciously, fingers are extremely sensitive, there's a reason craftsmen use their fingers to check the surface of things and not just their eyes or even tools.

Are we reaching a point of diminishing returns, absolutely, but at the same time that should be celebrated. It wasn't long ago we only had a handful of switch options, now we have so many we can debate the finer points of them.

Sensitive fingers have nothing to do whether it feels bad to you subconsciously...  It either feels good typing normally or it doesn't.  Just because it feels bad in slo mo doesn't mean it'll feel bad typing normally.   It could be because it feels bad in slo mo subconsciously you dislike the switch..That's perfectly OK. 

If you're saying your sensitive fingers are feeling something is off under normal conditions (which is very valid) then yes, of course, that's not the right switch for you.  But it is hardly the case that a switch feels good but at the same time does not.    It might feel decent but you feel that something is off..that is still off.  You know how you test this?  Blind.  Reason why people don't do blind tests?  Because they start realizing that they're wrong about what they prefer. 

When I say it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter to someone that is looking at the usage of the device.  You don't subconsciously hate it because you can actually feel anything wrong (as your example), you subconsciously hate it because you can't get it out of your head you dislike how it feels in slo mo.

It is 100% the same as saying, the keyboard doesn't feel right because there is a small ink mark on the side of the keyboard.  You might be bothered by that mark, you might dislike the keyboard as a result...but it isn't impacting your normal typing. 

Again, if you dislike how the switch feels in slo mo...you don't have to like it.  But if you're never using it like that what does it matter?  Would you give up a switch you love in normal usage because you hate it in slo mo?  Or would you rather go with a switch you like a bit less in regular usage because you enjoy how it feels in slo mo?  For me, it is the former 100% of the time..for others it isn't but I think people need to just be honest with themselves about it.  What you wrote was some sort of justification as if they can really feel it is bad in normal conditions subconsciously but they love it consciously and that's just not the case. 

Offline Maledicted

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #63 on: Sat, 02 May 2020, 00:36:12 »
Who cares what it feels like in slo mo?  I mean, I get it...people nit pick on every detail but how often are you using a keyboard where you press it down slowly and that feel actually matters?

It does matter.

You are correct in that it needs to feel good while fast and what can feel good slow may not feel good fast, but the switch that feels good doing both is going to be the one you prefer. You may not feel it consciously but you might subconsciously, fingers are extremely sensitive, there's a reason craftsmen use their fingers to check the surface of things and not just their eyes or even tools.

Are we reaching a point of diminishing returns, absolutely, but at the same time that should be celebrated. It wasn't long ago we only had a handful of switch options, now we have so many we can debate the finer points of them.

Sensitive fingers have nothing to do whether it feels bad to you subconsciously...  It either feels good typing normally or it doesn't.  Just because it feels bad in slo mo doesn't mean it'll feel bad typing normally.   It could be because it feels bad in slo mo subconsciously you dislike the switch..That's perfectly OK. 

If you're saying your sensitive fingers are feeling something is off under normal conditions (which is very valid) then yes, of course, that's not the right switch for you.  But it is hardly the case that a switch feels good but at the same time does not.    It might feel decent but you feel that something is off..that is still off.  You know how you test this?  Blind.  Reason why people don't do blind tests?  Because they start realizing that they're wrong about what they prefer. 

When I say it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter to someone that is looking at the usage of the device.  You don't subconsciously hate it because you can actually feel anything wrong (as your example), you subconsciously hate it because you can't get it out of your head you dislike how it feels in slo mo.

It is 100% the same as saying, the keyboard doesn't feel right because there is a small ink mark on the side of the keyboard.  You might be bothered by that mark, you might dislike the keyboard as a result...but it isn't impacting your normal typing. 

Again, if you dislike how the switch feels in slo mo...you don't have to like it.  But if you're never using it like that what does it matter?  Would you give up a switch you love in normal usage because you hate it in slo mo?  Or would you rather go with a switch you like a bit less in regular usage because you enjoy how it feels in slo mo?  For me, it is the former 100% of the time..for others it isn't but I think people need to just be honest with themselves about it.  What you wrote was some sort of justification as if they can really feel it is bad in normal conditions subconsciously but they love it consciously and that's just not the case.

I think what she's saying there is actually kind of the reverse of how you're interpreting it. I think the point being made is that if you type normally on a switch and don't like it, but can't put your finger on exactly why, then actuating the switch very slowly to try to feel it out in more detail may help to further define the characteristics that you dislike.

Going back to this, for the sake of it, I happened to have my only MX brown board within arm's reach, and I actually noticed once more that MX brown actually seems to have a perceptible tactile bump when I press the switch down very slowly. When I type normally on it, it just feels like varying degrees of grit ... just less gritty than when I press it slowly, so ... pros and cons for both? Maybe if I just typed on it at 5 wpm, like I'm stuck in a perpetual explosion scene in a Michael Bay movie, I would be able to consider them tactile.

Offline typo

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #64 on: Sat, 02 May 2020, 01:06:41 »
I never understand why people take things personally. On the internet yet.

Topre is supposed to be the definitive typists keyboard. You are forced to bottom out. Bottoming out can cause severe injury. You think that does not hurt? Just wait...
I still love Topre. I do not have long to live. Putting things into perspective. For myself at least. To me "MX" means "any" cherry-alike switch as well.
Honestly these boutique switches have outdone a niche market than cherry themselves. Cherry never intended too. I bet if Cherry did so, they might just win this game.
Honestly, I like plain old lubed O-ringed blues! Those are their "typing" switches after all. Why type on for instance, Reds a gaming switch? To each their own.
Downside Blues are not office friendly unless you are the CEO.
There are no rights or wrongs. No need to argue. Just enjoy whatever you do.
Stop writing in forums and do something constructive with your Keeb.
Unfortunately I just physically cracked a Topre R2 case manhandling it. There goes $350. Oh well. I just take things lightly seeing as I am going to die. that is actually more serious in the scheme of things.
I do not request pity. I am just stating a fact.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #65 on: Sat, 02 May 2020, 01:40:25 »
I never understand why people take things personally. On the internet yet.

Topre is supposed to be the definitive typists keyboard. You are forced to bottom out. Bottoming out can cause severe injury. You think that does not hurt? Just wait...
I still love Topre. I do not have long to live. Putting things into perspective. For myself at least. To me "MX" means "any" cherry-alike switch as well.
Honestly these boutique switches have outdone a niche market than cherry themselves. Cherry never intended too. I bet if Cherry did so, they might just win this game.
Honestly, I like plain old lubed O-ringed blues! Those are their "typing" switches after all. Why type on for instance, Reds a gaming switch? To each their own.
Downside Blues are not office friendly unless you are the CEO.
There are no rights or wrongs. No need to argue. Just enjoy whatever you do.
Stop writing in forums and do something constructive with your Keeb.
Unfortunately I just physically cracked a Topre R2 case manhandling it. There goes $350. Oh well. I just take things lightly seeing as I am going to die. that is actually more serious in the scheme of things.
I do not request pity. I am just stating a fact.

I am in agreement on not taking things personally.

I don't think there's a definitive anything keyboard, myself.

I love bottoming out, on thick steel and aluminum plates with undampened switches no less.

For me, MX means MX, the clones are MX clones, and there are newer switches that are neither even though they're compatible with the same plates, boards, and caps.

I don't think Cherry even cares about playing that game, much less winning it. They don't need to.

I very slightly prefer MX blues to reds for typing these days, but only because blues are clicky, even if they're amongst the worst clicky switches I own, beating Futaba MA only because they don't decompose over time. They still don't feel, or sound, as nice as even those when they're working.

Blues are pretty quiet, nobody minds me using capacitive buckling spring in/near the libraries at work.

I don't think a keyboard should cost that much money if you can break the case with your bare hands, but to each their own.

You keep mentioning how you've got some terminal illness, if that's the case, shouldn't you be spending time with family, etc?

Offline Polymer

  • Posts: 1472
Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #66 on: Sat, 02 May 2020, 02:00:33 »
I think what she's saying there is actually kind of the reverse of how you're interpreting it. I think the point being made is that if you type normally on a switch and don't like it, but can't put your finger on exactly why, then actuating the switch very slowly to try to feel it out in more detail may help to further define the characteristics that you dislike.

But if you don't like it when typing on it normally then you don't like it.  You might investigate further why you think you don't like it but it doesn't change the fact that you don't like it.

The point I was making (since I made the point originally) was that if you type on it normally and you like it then pressing it in slo mo doesn't matter.  How it feels in slo mo doesn't change whether you like/dislike it in normal operations.  It might impact how you feel about the switch in general but that's psychological, not based on your normal usage.  Blind testing is pretty good for something like this. 

But look, if you dislike/like a switch for whatever reason that's your own personal preference which is why I said.

If there was a switch I loved during normal usage but hated in slo mo vs. a switch I liked during normal usage but loved in slow mo, which would I pick?  The former.  The latter might have "more points" it might be mentally easier to accept.  But ultimately I care about how a switch feels when I use it, not how it feels when I press it in a way I'll never use.

Offline cari66ean

  • Posts: 26
Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #67 on: Sat, 02 May 2020, 05:50:49 »

Man you're surely a nice guy, you just gotta stop these strawman arguments, reading bs on purpose into what others said and then getting all smart-a$$ over it.

I didn't nit pick. As I mentioned like a hundred times already I personally even prefer smooth MX linears, I just gave credit where credit is due. In practice the boutique MX switches do come very close and I did mention that.

I'm not making a strawman argument...You made some comments and I corrected them.  Read your post as if you didn't write it.  What does it sound like?  And btw, the nitpicking is not just you, it is tons of other people that have done the same thing. 

Point is, you and many others, have made this observation about slowly pressing a key..but it serves no purpose because that isn't how they're used.  Granted, you can still completely dislike a switch as a result and that's fine but I'd rather measure something useful, such as when I'm using it.  If a switch in slo mo was the worst feeling switch ever, but the best when using it, would you like it?  I don't think that's possible but lets say it is.  The answer to me would be yes.  For some the answer would be no - They could never get over the feel of the switch in slo mo even though they love it in usage...Not saying that's you, saying that some people. 

Yes you are arguing against something I haven't said and that wasn't my point. My point was exactly that: when comparing them at typing speeds lubed boutique MX feel pretty much as smooth as Topre. It's just my observation that if you press them very slowly you are able to realize that MX is not quite as consistent and smooth especially when pressed in odd angles and that the stem is touching the leaf.

That's just an observation anybody is allowed to make, even if it bears no significance on actual usage, as mentioned just before that.

So don't quote me as if I said Topre > MX in real usage because when you press slowly bla bla. I didn't.

Regarding that "Topre joke"... you mentioned it as one of the pros that you don't have to bottom-out to actuate the switch. I joked about that because you can't actually _not_ bottom them out. And yes, personally: I don't like the feeling of a hard bottoming-out like on Topre, despite it sounding nice. Also I can barely hear the thock on my HHKB over the key rattle lol.

Not bottoming out on them to actuate IS an advantage but you don't seem to understand why.  First off, because it is more responsive.  If you change the actuation to bottom out or with APC try a lower actuation level (deeper) then you'll see, it feels sluggish.  You'll eventually get used to it but that responsiveness is a bonus to many mech switches and one reason I like Topre.  The other is, that responsiveness is because it is electro capacitive which also means it will be reliable.  It also means reset and actuation are at the same point which may not mean anything to some but will for others.  And yes, very aware you can't stop yourself from bottoming out..I was one of the first people to call out people's BS when they claim they can.  30/35g Topre, sure, that's possible although hardly worth it.  45g is just not possible without typing at such a stupidly slow rate it isn't worth it. 

You see... you are again arguing and insinuating I don't understand something, even though that wasn't the point I was making. Classic strawman again, and I'm not arguing against the responsiveness. It was simply a f*cking JOKE which fit the moment, that you cannot not bottom-out Topre anyway.

If you can't hear the thock on a HHKB that would be weird....it has the loudest thock out of all Topre keyboards..and one of the reasons people love it.  Other than the spacebar stabilizer rattling, there isn't too much rattling going on..there are little raindrop noises but honestly, that's one of the best parts of that keyboard for a lot of people.  It is also one reason why a good number of people prefer the standard HHKB to the Type-S..specifically because they love the sound. 


Though from the force curves of the lighter 30g Topres I'd probably really enjoy those, especially combined with a spring to increase the force towards the bottom as discussed earlier in this thread.

Try it out then..or get a NIZ..those are like 35g..you can put a heavy spring on there or put two of the springs they've included in there.  They make the switch feel linear (as I've already told you) and harder to bottom out because of all the resistance.

That was also not to be taken so literally. You did notice the "lol" in the "Also I can barely hear the thock on my HHKB over the key rattle lol". I exaggerated it but yes the key rattle on the now 12yr old HHBK2 Pro is very noticeable. Of course it's not louder than the "thock" itself, which is also very low pitched while the key rattle is high pitched. Nonetheless the HHKB2 key rattle when typing normally is way louder than bottoming-out my glass-fiber plate (PCB) mounted lubed Tealios.

As much as I'm sure I'd enjoy the 35g NIZ Topres, especially with the springs as we already discussed, I don't think I'll go down that road for now. Lubed high-quality MX linears are smooth and nice enough for me and I vastly prefer split ergo keyboards over traditional ones and there's just no going back for me.

Offline SenhorHoshino

  • Posts: 7
  • Location: Portugal
Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #68 on: Sat, 02 May 2020, 11:58:39 »
This thread goes like a complete 180 pahahah

Offline Polymer

  • Posts: 1472
Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #69 on: Sat, 02 May 2020, 14:47:54 »
Yes you are arguing against something I haven't said and that wasn't my point. My point was exactly that: when comparing them at typing speeds lubed boutique MX feel pretty much as smooth as Topre. It's just my observation that if you press them very slowly you are able to realize that MX is not quite as consistent and smooth especially when pressed in odd angles and that the stem is touching the leaf.

That's just an observation anybody is allowed to make, even if it bears no significance on actual usage, as mentioned just before that.

OK.  So I misunderstood what you were trying to say.  So what you were talking about had no significance on the conversation, you just added some extra observation just because...Fair enough.  It doesn't read like that but if that is your point, my apologies, you weren't making that comparison. 

You see... you are again arguing and insinuating I don't understand something, even though that wasn't the point I was making. Classic strawman again, and I'm not arguing against the responsiveness. It was simply a f*cking JOKE which fit the moment, that you cannot not bottom-out Topre anyway.

You say these are a strawman but you said it...I didn't. 

Quote from: cari66ean
if pressed slowly the stroke on the Topre definitely feels more consistent and stable than even 'boutique' lubed linear MX switches. Those do come very close in terms of smoothness, though there's still a difference when compared in slow-mo.

You mention nothing of normal usage...So either you think you're communicating an idea and aren't..or you're changing your mind.  It isn't a strawman, you wrote it.  Maybe what you meant to say is in your head and didn't come out.  Maybe you didn't type it out and thought you did.  But it isn't a strawman.  I'm not comparing anything you didn't actually say/write.  I could be comparing something you didn't intend to write or mean but I can't read your mind. 

Here's more fuel to the argument..

Quote from: cari66ean
I do imagine them being quite amazing though when spring swapped to heavier springs that prevent you from bottoming out
To which you said you were talking about an extra external spring..but based on this quote, you weren't.  You're changing your argument now that you've been taught something but just admit, you didn't know.  Or you just didn't write what you intended to write, but how would I know that?  I should just assume you're more knowledgeable?  And when typo talked about the internal spring you didn't correct him there either.  Seriously, you didn't know what you were talking about with the spring or with the weight or how it feels or with what adding another spring will do...You're not going to learn anything if you insist you know it all already and can't even admit when you were wrong.  Either you wrote it wrong or you were wrong.  Only you know what the answer to that is but don't act as if this is something I'm making up.   

Also I can barely hear the thock on my HHKB over the key rattle lol". I exaggerated it but yes the key rattle on the now 12yr old HHBK2 Pro is very noticeable. Of course it's not louder than the "thock" itself, which is also very low pitched while the key rattle is high pitched. Nonetheless the HHKB2 key rattle when typing normally is way louder than bottoming-out my glass-fiber plate (PCB) mounted lubed Tealios.

Oddly enough, I have a HHKB2 from 2007 and mine thocks fine...The rattle from the spacebar stabilizer can be fixed if you care to fix it....

« Last Edit: Sat, 02 May 2020, 14:52:31 by Polymer »

Offline Maledicted

  • Posts: 1399
  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #70 on: Sat, 02 May 2020, 18:04:50 »
I think what she's saying there is actually kind of the reverse of how you're interpreting it. I think the point being made is that if you type normally on a switch and don't like it, but can't put your finger on exactly why, then actuating the switch very slowly to try to feel it out in more detail may help to further define the characteristics that you dislike.

But if you don't like it when typing on it normally then you don't like it.  You might investigate further why you think you don't like it but it doesn't change the fact that you don't like it.

The point I was making (since I made the point originally) was that if you type on it normally and you like it then pressing it in slo mo doesn't matter.  How it feels in slo mo doesn't change whether you like/dislike it in normal operations.  It might impact how you feel about the switch in general but that's psychological, not based on your normal usage.  Blind testing is pretty good for something like this. 

But look, if you dislike/like a switch for whatever reason that's your own personal preference which is why I said.

If there was a switch I loved during normal usage but hated in slo mo vs. a switch I liked during normal usage but loved in slow mo, which would I pick?  The former.  The latter might have "more points" it might be mentally easier to accept.  But ultimately I care about how a switch feels when I use it, not how it feels when I press it in a way I'll never use.

I think we went over this, but I'm pretty sure that no relatively reasonable person would make a determination about a switch based primarily on how that switch feels when pressed very slowly. The only reason people do that to begin with is to try to get a more in-depth feel for a switch's characteristics after already having typed on it. Personally, even in a tester, I try my best to try to get the angle and momentum as close as possible to on an actual keyboard when trying something out, since I know that even then it is still going to feel a little different once it is mounted in a real board.

Have you ever felt a switch that you liked when pressed normally, but did not when pressed slowly, or vice versa? I haven't. Your hypothetical scenario, of course, makes sense. My problem with it is its feasibility, and actual application to an appreciable proportion of typists even if it were feasible.

Oddly enough, I have a HHKB2 from 2007 and mine thocks fine...The rattle from the spacebar stabilizer can be fixed if you care to fix it....

Rattle just adds character/personality if you ask me.
« Last Edit: Sun, 03 May 2020, 01:57:44 by Maledicted »

Offline Polymer

  • Posts: 1472
Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #71 on: Sat, 02 May 2020, 21:13:04 »

Have you ever felt a switch that you liked when pressed normally, but did not when pressed slowly, or vice versa? I haven't. Your hypothetical scenario, of course, makes sense. My problem with it is its feasibility, and actual application to an appreciable proportion of typists even if it were feasible.

Yes..I think Browns feel absolutely terrible when you press them slowly..but typing with them they feel great.  I actually think that's the most obvious example because not many people actually think browns feel very good when you press them slowly...but at least some of those people like them when using them.  This subject has been brought up before on this board which why I know it isn't just myself and for sure it isn't hypothetical so it is more than feasible...You haven't experienced it so you wouldn't think so.   It's application?  Seriously?  It is really simple.  The application is:  If you like the switch when typing with it normally, that's the part that matters.  If you like or dislike it when pressing it slowly, that part doesn't matter because that isn't how you use it. 

How is that not applicable to basically everyone? 

Now, not everyone will apply this because they can't get out of their own way.  It is the same reason why BLIND tests can be embarrassing for people because they might completely trash a switch only to realize they like it when not knowing what it is and just typing with it. 


Offline Maledicted

  • Posts: 1399
  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #72 on: Sat, 02 May 2020, 22:19:28 »

Have you ever felt a switch that you liked when pressed normally, but did not when pressed slowly, or vice versa? I haven't. Your hypothetical scenario, of course, makes sense. My problem with it is its feasibility, and actual application to an appreciable proportion of typists even if it were feasible.

Yes..I think Browns feel absolutely terrible when you press them slowly..but typing with them they feel great.  I actually think that's the most obvious example because not many people actually think browns feel very good when you press them slowly...but at least some of those people like them when using them.  This subject has been brought up before on this board which why I know it isn't just myself and for sure it isn't hypothetical so it is more than feasible...You haven't experienced it so you wouldn't think so.   It's application?  Seriously?  It is really simple.  The application is:  If you like the switch when typing with it normally, that's the part that matters.  If you like or dislike it when pressing it slowly, that part doesn't matter because that isn't how you use it. 

How is that not applicable to basically everyone? 

Now, not everyone will apply this because they can't get out of their own way.  It is the same reason why BLIND tests can be embarrassing for people because they might completely trash a switch only to realize they like it when not knowing what it is and just typing with it.

I think you may be misunderstanding what I mean by application. My only point is that I don't think that the vast majority of people care about whether or not a switch feels 100% perfect to them when pressed slowly, and only use it as a way of trying to glean more information on the inherent characteristics of the switch.

I find it hard to believe the assumption that you seem to be making that everybody that hates MX brown feels that way simply because some, many, or even most, feel that they only feel terrible when pressed slowly, but not at realistic real-world speed, and that in spite of this perceived disparity, some appreciable portion of this subgroup lack the capacity for rational thought to such a significant degree that they write the switch off entirely based primarily on that.

I find it hard to believe that this very specific scenario, which assumes an extreme lack of logic on their parts, could apply to an appreciable portion of any switch's detractors. It sounds to me though that either of us asserting that either is the case is mostly speculation.

In short, what you consider to be the application, is what I agreed with you on from the start, but consider the scenario in which it applies to be, at best, very unlikely to apply to many people, if any.

I'm not sure how blind tests would accomplish anything in this regard. I have seen videos done by channels like Linus Tech Tips, where it isn't even a keyboard channel, and on a whim they do a blind test and the individual being tested seems to have no difficulty determining between authentic MX blue and some knockoffs, etc. If someone were so blinded by their impressions of how a switch feels when pressed slowly, then maybe? Kind of?

We just disagree entirely on the premise.
« Last Edit: Sun, 03 May 2020, 01:47:19 by Maledicted »

Offline Polymer

  • Posts: 1472
Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #73 on: Sun, 03 May 2020, 01:36:49 »
I think you may be misunderstanding what I mean by application. My only point is that I don't think that the vast majority of people care about whether or not a switch feels 100% perfect to them when pressed slowly, and only use it as a way of trying to glean more information on the inherent characteristics of the switch.
I don't think a majority do either.  I'm saying some people allow themselves to get caught up with that when in reality, if you like how a switch feels, you shouldn't care how it feels when it is pressed slowly. 

I find it hard to believe the assumption that you seem to be making that everybody that hates MX brown feels that way simply because some, many, or even most, feel that they only feel terrible when pressed slowly, but not at realistic real-world speed, and that in spite of this perceived disparity, some appreciable portion of this subgroup lack the capacity for rational thought to such a significant degree that they write the switch off entirely based primarily on that.
I didn't say that everybody that hates browns hates it because of that.  I'm saying that is a common complaint.  Some people just hate browns because they don't like how they feel when they type with them.   They might think they're too light.  They might think the tactile bump is too small..they might not like the overall weight or feel...Tons of reasons why they might not like them.  Some people don't like them because of how they feel when you press them slowly. 

I'm not sure how blind tests would accomplish anything in this regard. I have seen videos done by channels like Linux Tech Tips, where it isn't even a keyboard channel, and on a whim they do a blind test and the individual being tested seems to have no difficulty determining between authentic MX blue and some knockoffs, etc. If someone were so blinded by their impressions of how a switch feels when pressed slowly, then maybe? Kind of?
I saw the video where they tested with like 8 different people...most of them didn't know what switches were which and more than half didn't even pick their favorite switches. 
By blind I mean the person types with them blind without knowing what they are. 

Offline Maledicted

  • Posts: 1399
  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #74 on: Sun, 03 May 2020, 02:55:53 »
I think you may be misunderstanding what I mean by application. My only point is that I don't think that the vast majority of people care about whether or not a switch feels 100% perfect to them when pressed slowly, and only use it as a way of trying to glean more information on the inherent characteristics of the switch.
I don't think a majority do either.  I'm saying some people allow themselves to get caught up with that when in reality, if you like how a switch feels, you shouldn't care how it feels when it is pressed slowly.

More specifically, what I mean to say is that the proportion of people who completely disregard real world use for something as trivial as any perceived negatives when feeling out a switch slowly to people who do not do so must be so inconsequential that this doesn't really matter much. In repeatedly emphasizing it as a problem, it makes it seem like you think that this is something at least relatively common. I can't imagine that that would be the case. If they're that dense, there's probably no changing it anyway.

I find it hard to believe the assumption that you seem to be making that everybody that hates MX brown feels that way simply because some, many, or even most, feel that they only feel terrible when pressed slowly, but not at realistic real-world speed, and that in spite of this perceived disparity, some appreciable portion of this subgroup lack the capacity for rational thought to such a significant degree that they write the switch off entirely based primarily on that.
I didn't say that everybody that hates browns hates it because of that.  I'm saying that is a common complaint.  Some people just hate browns because they don't like how they feel when they type with them.   They might think they're too light.  They might think the tactile bump is too small..they might not like the overall weight or feel...Tons of reasons why they might not like them.  Some people don't like them because of how they feel when you press them slowly. 

I think my response above pretty well covers my thoughts on this.

I'm not sure how blind tests would accomplish anything in this regard. I have seen videos done by channels like Linux Tech Tips, where it isn't even a keyboard channel, and on a whim they do a blind test and the individual being tested seems to have no difficulty determining between authentic MX blue and some knockoffs, etc. If someone were so blinded by their impressions of how a switch feels when pressed slowly, then maybe? Kind of?
I saw the video where they tested with like 8 different people...most of them didn't know what switches were which and more than half didn't even pick their favorite switches. 
By blind I mean the person types with them blind without knowing what they are.

I know what you mean, obviously. We must be talking about different videos. I saw it a long while back now, I believe it was a single person, and maybe also Linus after, taking a blind test. The first to go guessed most of them right, although I believe that most, if not all, were MX blues and clones, which I could imagine may be easier than something like tactiles of one specific type. I also imagine that most, if not all, clones of MX brown don't feel particularly great, but I haven't felt any straight clones myself. Even box browns were ... ok, I suppose?

What sort of blind test was this? Had they all used each of the switches for any appreciable period of time first? If not, that would obviously be a point of failure.

When you break it up into, say various MX variants, I imagine that almost anyone would still get relatively close to their preferred switch, since we're then talking about differences in type, weighting and dampening for the most part. Of the MX clones I have felt, within a given switch type, the differences have been too little to make even having a favorite really matter. I imagine that, personally, I could mix up MX blue with at least one or two of its clones, since Outemus feel better to me than the real deal and the others I have felt are close enough to MX to feasibly be mixed up. I know it would be close to impossible to mix up capacitive buckling spring with anything else, and nothing modern would feel like SKCM blues. I haven't felt all weird dead clickies, but I imagine SKCM whites would be the most likely, and possibly only, doppelganger.

I imagine that literally nobody could correctly identify every single switch they've felt before if there's a close analogue in the running, maybe not even every single switch they've typed on extensively, but it seems to me that we get back into the territory of bizarre what-if scenarios if we're talking about people writing a switch off entirely for XYZ and doing a 180 just because they couldn't see it the next time they felt it. That's my reason for thinking a blind test would be of dubious purpose in a case like that. It would still feel just as terrible, or great, unless you're also limiting it to normal presses only, which should (hopefully) realistically still affect the opinion of an insignificant number of people. It would more likely sway people who had an unshakable preconceived opinion of a switch before ever having felt it at all, and then disregarded their own senses entirely. I would still hope, in a community like this, that that would still be an extremely small number of people, but I could see it being significantly more than the group we've been talking about.

Offline Polymer

  • Posts: 1472
Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #75 on: Sun, 03 May 2020, 03:19:01 »
More specifically, what I mean to say is that the proportion of people who completely disregard real world use for something as trivial as any perceived negatives when feeling out a switch slowly to people who do not do so must be so inconsequential that this doesn't really matter much. In repeatedly emphasizing it as a problem, it makes it seem like you think that this is something at least relatively common. I can't imagine that that would be the case. If they're that dense, there's probably no changing it anyway.
I don't know if you've been on this board longer than your registration but it has come up on here more than a few times over the years..and again in this thread. 

There is also an unusual level of OCD associated with this hobby so yes, people do nitpick at this type of thing because it isn't perfect in their mind. 

Another variation with this is when someone comes on about how every Topre key isn't the same weight that some are slightly heavier...or lighter..and they explain how they don't notice it when typing but it really bothers them that they're not exactly the same....It is all in their head. 

What sort of blind test was this? Had they all used each of the switches for any appreciable period of time first? If not, that would obviously be a point of failure.
They did a head to head comparison across a range of different switches in a given category.  I think only one of them was familiar w/ all of the switches...the rest of them had tried maybe some of them.

I imagine that literally nobody could correctly identify every single switch they've felt before if there's a close analogue in the running, maybe not even every single switch they've typed on extensively, but it seems to me that we get back into the territory of bizarre what-if scenarios if we're talking about people writing a switch off entirely for XYZ and doing a 180 just because they couldn't see it the next time they felt it. That's my reason for thinking a blind test would be of dubious purpose in a case like that. It would still feel just as terrible, or great, unless you're also limiting it to normal presses only, which should (hopefully) realistically still affect the opinion of an insignificant number of people. It would more likely sway people who had an unshakable preconceived opinion of a switch before ever having felt it at all, and then disregarded their own senses entirely. I would still hope, in a community like this, that that would still be an extremely small number of people, but I could see it being significantly more than the group we've been talking about.
The point of a blind test is not to identify them correctly but frankly, if you can identify them all blind this doesn't serve any purpose because you will know what they are...And yes, at that level, that person has probably tried most things and is just going with what they really enjoy without the bias.  And yes, I'm talking just normal usage..if you want to eliminate the bias of "slo mo" then you eliminate that as a test..not saying you have to do it that way but to get at what I'm talking about you would. 

You seem to be pretty convinced people don't convince themselves they like something/dislike something...but that happens in every hobby.  If you're honest with yourself, you won't fall into this trap but a lot of people do. 

Now, people will notice the difference between linear, tactile and clicky...So obviously someone that dislikes linear isn't suddenly going to like a linear switch because they'll know it is linear....But the differences in tactile switches lets say?  Or linear switches?  Within each category you'll no doubt find people that disliked a particular switch but liked it when trying them blind.   That is a complete 180.  Is it most people?  No..what you're more likely to find is some people that picked their favorite switch as their favorite..some people would have picked a different switch as their favorite (even if they've tried them all before) and a smaller number that picks their least favorite as their favorite...
 
« Last Edit: Sun, 03 May 2020, 03:38:52 by Polymer »

Offline Maledicted

  • Posts: 1399
  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #76 on: Sun, 03 May 2020, 04:27:20 »
More specifically, what I mean to say is that the proportion of people who completely disregard real world use for something as trivial as any perceived negatives when feeling out a switch slowly to people who do not do so must be so inconsequential that this doesn't really matter much. In repeatedly emphasizing it as a problem, it makes it seem like you think that this is something at least relatively common. I can't imagine that that would be the case. If they're that dense, there's probably no changing it anyway.
I don't know if you've been on this board longer than your registration but it has come up on here more than a few times over the years..and again in this thread. 

There is also an unusual level of OCD associated with this hobby so yes, people do nitpick at this type of thing because it isn't perfect in their mind. 

Another variation with this is when someone comes on about how every Topre key isn't the same weight that some are slightly heavier...or lighter..and they explain how they don't notice it when typing but it really bothers them that they're not exactly the same....It is all in their head.

I did lurk for a few years first. I wouldn't say that anecdotal examples are indicative of any discernible trend, especially when the loudest voice draws the most attention. It is he same as what you do or do not see on the news. Accidental drownings, rampages, drunken brawls, plane crashes, someone being struck by lightning, all anecdotal events concentrated to the extreme that would make you think the world was coming to an end if you didn't know any better. Maybe I missed something, but I haven't seen it at all in this thread, unless you count just mentioning how smooth Topre feels when pressed slowly ... well, and you could probably count typo, but that's just typo. No offense, typo.

I have noticed the OCD, and I don't understand the levels to which it is sometimes applied, like how perfect the edges of legends on printed caps look when looking at them through a magnifying glass.

What sort of blind test was this? Had they all used each of the switches for any appreciable period of time first? If not, that would obviously be a point of failure.
They did a head to head comparison across a range of different switches in a given category.  I think only one of them was familiar w/ all of the switches...the rest of them had tried maybe some of them.

I imagine that literally nobody could correctly identify every single switch they've felt before if there's a close analogue in the running, maybe not even every single switch they've typed on extensively, but it seems to me that we get back into the territory of bizarre what-if scenarios if we're talking about people writing a switch off entirely for XYZ and doing a 180 just because they couldn't see it the next time they felt it. That's my reason for thinking a blind test would be of dubious purpose in a case like that. It would still feel just as terrible, or great, unless you're also limiting it to normal presses only, which should (hopefully) realistically still affect the opinion of an insignificant number of people. It would more likely sway people who had an unshakable preconceived opinion of a switch before ever having felt it at all, and then disregarded their own senses entirely. I would still hope, in a community like this, that that would still be an extremely small number of people, but I could see it being significantly more than the group we've been talking about.
The point of a blind test is not to identify them correctly but frankly, if you can identify them all blind this doesn't serve any purpose because you will know what they are...And yes, at that level, that person has probably tried most things and is just going with what they really enjoy without the bias.  And yes, I'm talking just normal usage..if you want to eliminate the bias of "slo mo" then you eliminate that as a test..not saying you have to do it that way but to get at what I'm talking about you would.

I was going to say something very similar to this effect if you had not. At the very least, if a particular mechanism was dismissed out of hand, and that is maintained in blind testing, that would also be a lack of bias, even if the individual switches that share that mechanism were not correctly guessed.

You seem to be pretty convinced people don't convince themselves they like something/dislike something...but that happens in every hobby.  If you're honest with yourself, you won't fall into this trap but a lot of people do. 

I mentioned the fact that it does happen, in multiple ways, just that I don't think that it is as common as you do.

Now, people will notice the difference between linear, tactile and clicky...So obviously someone that dislikes linear isn't suddenly going to like a linear switch because they'll know it is linear....But the differences in tactile switches lets say?  Or linear switches?  Within each category you'll no doubt find people that disliked a particular switch but liked it when trying them blind.   That is a complete 180.  Is it most people?  No..what you're more likely to find is some people that picked their favorite switch as their favorite..some people would have picked a different switch as their favorite (even if they've tried them all before) and a smaller number that picks their least favorite as their favorite...
 

Most of that is what I had already said, we only disagree on how common it would be for someone to suddenly like a switch they previously hated due to some kind of mental conditioning and/or irrational bias.

Offline Polymer

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #77 on: Sun, 03 May 2020, 16:22:02 »
I have noticed the OCD, and I don't understand the levels to which it is sometimes applied, like how perfect the edges of legends on printed caps look when looking at them through a magnifying glass.
So you've seen the levels of OCD...so you know it happens...I'm not saying it is a majority of people on this board..or even mech keyboard enthusiasts..but it isn't a rarity.   Far from it. 

Read Leslieann's post again...A reasonable number of people do care how switches feel when pressing them slowly..not because it has any functional benefit but because it bothers them to think it doesn't feel great under very condition, even conditions they don't use. 

But I'll say it again, IMO, people should be looking for a switch they like under normal conditions and the rest don't matter because that is just an irrational consideration.  Some people will disagree and that's fine but let's not try to justify it as anything but their OCD getting in the way.  I'm not saying they can't do that, it is their choice but let's just admit it is their OCD and not a rational argument.   It sounds like we agree, we just don't agree on the frequency.

So why do I mention it?  Same reason I mention how bottoming out is not a bad thing and you lose speed when you try not to bottom out.  The same reason I mention that we don't react to a tactile bump to tell us when to stop pressing.  These were all some weird thing people made up many years ago that still somehow makes its way through the hobby..you just see it talked about far less than you did a number of years ago..
« Last Edit: Sun, 03 May 2020, 16:24:05 by Polymer »

Offline Maledicted

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #78 on: Sun, 03 May 2020, 17:45:52 »
I have noticed the OCD, and I don't understand the levels to which it is sometimes applied, like how perfect the edges of legends on printed caps look when looking at them through a magnifying glass.
So you've seen the levels of OCD...so you know it happens...I'm not saying it is a majority of people on this board..or even mech keyboard enthusiasts..but it isn't a rarity.   Far from it. 

Read Leslieann's post again...A reasonable number of people do care how switches feel when pressing them slowly..not because it has any functional benefit but because it bothers them to think it doesn't feel great under very condition, even conditions they don't use. 

But I'll say it again, IMO, people should be looking for a switch they like under normal conditions and the rest don't matter because that is just an irrational consideration.  Some people will disagree and that's fine but let's not try to justify it as anything but their OCD getting in the way.  I'm not saying they can't do that, it is their choice but let's just admit it is their OCD and not a rational argument.   It sounds like we agree, we just don't agree on the frequency.

So why do I mention it?  Same reason I mention how bottoming out is not a bad thing and you lose speed when you try not to bottom out.  The same reason I mention that we don't react to a tactile bump to tell us when to stop pressing.  These were all some weird thing people made up many years ago that still somehow makes its way through the hobby..you just see it talked about far less than you did a number of years ago..

We do mostly agree, on most things other than how common it is for someone to be entirely blinded to real-world use of a switch based on how it feels when pressed slowly. I haven't seen anybody say as much, and we can't assume that even a large percentage of people who simply mention how a switch feels when pressed slowly fit into this theoretical group.

I don't think that acting OCD necessarily correlates at all to something like that.

I agree on bottoming out.

Offline Polymer

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #79 on: Sun, 03 May 2020, 18:13:44 »
I don't think that acting OCD necessarily correlates at all to something like that.

Of course it does...How can it not?

If you're particular about all the little things and obsess about each and every detail, even the ones that don't really matter, how do you mentally get over the fact that you don't like how the switch feels when pressed slowly?

Of course there are different levels of OCD but the one you quoted where people are concerned about how clean the lines are under a microscrope.  You don't think they care about every little detail?  More likely than not I'd say.

That isn't to say every individual with a bit of OCD cares about every single detail..but the people that do are the ones more likely to care about the little details that don't really matter..

And of course I'm not using OCD as in someone diagnosed with it..just in the more relaxed way of saying someone is a bit more obsessive about some of the details than they probably should be.    There is a bit of that in probably most keyboard people..




Offline funkmon

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #80 on: Sun, 03 May 2020, 18:39:41 »
OCD is a disorder that doesn't manifest in a logical way much of the time. We can't simply extrapolate a person's behaviour in one aspect of his or her life and assume the other aspects. This is getting quite off topic, isn't it?

Offline Maledicted

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #81 on: Sun, 03 May 2020, 18:44:08 »
OCD is a disorder that doesn't manifest in a logical way much of the time. We can't simply extrapolate a person's behaviour in one aspect of his or her life and assume the other aspects. This is getting quite off topic, isn't it?

Agreed.

Offline typo

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #82 on: Sun, 03 May 2020, 21:56:51 »
I can't believe you guy's are still arguing this. I would never started this. I hope mods lock it. You people really are not nice to each other. I thought it was something wrong with me to get insults, but no.
From Cherry I pick Blues. Blues suck. Cherry is old news. Today Boutique switches are just as nice as Topre. Just somewhat different feeling. Still every bit as good if you get used to them IMO.  My one good board has blues. not tried yet. Although "blue custom pandas". May be okay. Can't tell yet. Otherwise I swap. Please stop arguing.
There are more serious things. Such as Dying! Yes, Everyone down to all my great grand kids are here. Funny thing is I am not sad but my family is. I had a great life IMO. Even though many of you think I am just some low bit jerk. Why do you folk have such fervor? Need anger management. I figured you all "nerds" would be peaceful submissive crowd. Boy was I wrong. Maybe years of being misunderstood/ bullied? IDK. Please love thy neighbor. Peace.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #83 on: Sun, 03 May 2020, 23:23:00 »
I can't believe you guy's are still arguing this. I would never started this. I hope mods lock it. You people really are not nice to each other. I thought it was something wrong with me to get insults, but no.
From Cherry I pick Blues. Blues suck. Cherry is old news. Today Boutique switches are just as nice as Topre. Just somewhat different feeling. Still every bit as good if you get used to them IMO.  My one good board has blues. not tried yet. Although "blue custom pandas". May be okay. Can't tell yet. Otherwise I swap. Please stop arguing.
There are more serious things. Such as Dying! Yes, Everyone down to all my great grand kids are here. Funny thing is I am not sad but my family is. I had a great life IMO. Even though many of you think I am just some low bit jerk. Why do you folk have such fervor? Need anger management. I figured you all "nerds" would be peaceful submissive crowd. Boy was I wrong. Maybe years of being misunderstood/ bullied? IDK. Please love thy neighbor. Peace.

I think that this has been mostly a healthy, civil conversation. Has anybody insulted someone else? I haven't seen it in the conversations in which I've been involved. Blue custom pandas? What are those? I try to learn about all of the wild custom linears and tactiles when I can, even if it may be some time before I bother to try any of them, but you make that sound like that one may be clicky?

You've got very vocal detractors, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is even a large proportion of people who read the things you've said. People who disagree with, or disbelieve what you say have greater motivation to respond than people who take it at face value, or have no opinion. I think of myself as neutral in that regard, and actually kind of like to watch the fireworks that result.

There's your problem, you assume. Stereotypes rarely reflect reality.

Enjoy their company, you're all fortunate to have time to have it. Sometimes it isn't so. I didn't have it with my father, not consciously anyway. At this moment my cousin is on life support, with an indeterminate outcome. Her parents were not present when that crisis began. You, on the other hand, have got time to say goodbye. I wish you luck, whatever that may entail.

Offline walie

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #84 on: Mon, 04 May 2020, 08:52:00 »
Typo is just mad that the convo is no longer about him.

Offline treeleaf64

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #85 on: Mon, 04 May 2020, 09:32:50 »
Alright, just spent a good 10 minutes reading through the entire thread.

Here is what it's about, for anyone who does not want to read through:

  • Topre is good and everything else is bad.
  • Some boutique switches get pretty close to Topre.
  • "Good" and "bad" switches are based on personal preference, but people can still agree on which switches feel better than others, generally.
  • If good or bad switches should be judged by pressing slowly or quickly.
  • Everyone and their mother insulting Typo.


Offline Polymer

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #86 on: Mon, 04 May 2020, 09:50:45 »
Typo is just mad that the convo is no longer about him.

Winner Winner!

Offline typo

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #87 on: Mon, 04 May 2020, 10:48:02 »
Actually I am glad the heat is off of me.

The blues are not really pandas. They have a silent red spring, lubed and thin o-ring or so I am told. I will see how I like it. I guess it is coming today. Now I am going to get flamed again. It is Korean. I do not know whom. From the specs It "seems" nicer than Rama or OTD. I mean for instance they weighted it to like 13 pounds or something. The case is not anodized but electro plated. Of course fully milled by hand. The stainless plate is nearly 1/2" thick. .35" to be exact. The PBT DS caps are almost 3mm thick. You can believe me or not. Although I may very well think it stinks. Oh, I am sure they are clicky but I bet less noise than stock blues.

I am honestly just here trying to keep my mind off of what is going to happen to me. Yes, if you want to engage me great.

Offline tacomn

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #88 on: Fri, 15 May 2020, 17:33:37 »
So typo if you love topre so much, which boards are your favorite?

Offline IronCheeks

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #89 on: Fri, 15 May 2020, 19:53:21 »
As a newbie to this hobby, this thread is teaching me a lot about key switches, actuation force, design, and expectations about feel.
Regarding the opinion-driven comments, I mean hey, to each their own.
Maledicted could not have put it better for OP and for I.



Offline typo

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #90 on: Mon, 18 May 2020, 00:41:37 »
If no one noticed I have taken this back as of late. I have some unknown perhaps "blue" based MX switches I shall not look back! I can say this with confidence as I have about 100,000 words on them now. I love these. they are so lite and dainty. Like an angels dance. FYI, they are about as clicky as silent Red! I do not really know what they comprise but I love them!

Offline Maledicted

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #91 on: Mon, 18 May 2020, 10:02:40 »
As a newbie to this hobby, this thread is teaching me a lot about key switches, actuation force, design, and expectations about feel.
Regarding the opinion-driven comments, I mean hey, to each their own.
Maledicted could not have put it better for OP and for I.

It is good to hear that something constructive has come from it all. Even opinions are data, when compared against other opinions ... so long as those opinions aren't all too influenced by trends vs pure unadulterated experiences.

I'm somewhat surprised you named me specifically. I can have some pretty strong opinions myself, but I like to think that they're usually pretty well-reasoned, and they're subject to persuasion. For whatever it's worth, I'm glad insights you found here may have helped.

If no one noticed I have taken this back as of late. I have some unknown perhaps "blue" based MX switches I shall not look back! I can say this with confidence as I have about 100,000 words on them now. I love these. they are so lite and dainty. Like an angels dance. FYI, they are about as clicky as silent Red! I do not really know what they comprise but I love them!

So, they're linears? What the heck are those things?

Offline typo

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #92 on: Mon, 18 May 2020, 23:30:33 »
I have no clue how to describe these switches, let alone what they even are. I think they "said" based off blue. that could be lost in Korean translation though completely. I honestly have no idea what they are. bottom of the switch is white with a gold dot and top is a very milky blue. Then I do not even think it has the stock spring or slider for whatever that is plus O-ring and lube. I honestly have no clue what these are. As quiet as a silent Red so could not really be blue? Could not be tactile either. No bump, very smooth. just press straight down but force ever so slightly increases, barely. I would say maybe these are 15-20G. not even kidding. You can sneeze to actuate these. these are great for very fast typing if you have very low mistype. My WPM increased drastically.  I guess it does not really matter now but short of taking one apart I kind of would like to know what they are comprised of. They may not have a single cherry part in fact. They could be Tealio/Zealio based or Drop or who knows. I did mention you because I have grown to value your opinion here.

Offline walie

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #93 on: Tue, 19 May 2020, 08:15:10 »
I have no clue how to describe these switches, let alone what they even are. I think they "said" based off blue. that could be lost in Korean translation though completely. I honestly have no idea what they are. bottom of the switch is white with a gold dot and top is a very milky blue. Then I do not even think it has the stock spring or slider for whatever that is plus O-ring and lube. I honestly have no clue what these are. As quiet as a silent Red so could not really be blue? Could not be tactile either. No bump, very smooth. just press straight down but force ever so slightly increases, barely. I would say maybe these are 15-20G. not even kidding. You can sneeze to actuate these. these are great for very fast typing if you have very low mistype. My WPM increased drastically.  I guess it does not really matter now but short of taking one apart I kind of would like to know what they are comprised of. They may not have a single cherry part in fact. They could be Tealio/Zealio based or Drop or who knows. I did mention you because I have grown to value your opinion here.

you're kinda grasping at straws here

Offline typo

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #94 on: Wed, 20 May 2020, 08:42:18 »
Exactly. Hence, can't describe them. Duh! I never saw anything like them before. I can't say I have seen everything. I never felt anything like them either. I honestly guess these are 20g or less!

Offline DALExSNAIL

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #95 on: Wed, 20 May 2020, 09:09:29 »
Why does this ****ing thread exist tbh

Offline typo

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #96 on: Thu, 21 May 2020, 04:31:26 »
That is not very nice. What is wrong with it exactly? So you don't enjoy it. Obviously others did.

Offline walie

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #97 on: Thu, 21 May 2020, 11:01:14 »
Why does this ****ing thread exist tbh

attention seekers seeking attention