Author Topic: [GB] HEAVY METAL KEYBOARDS [CLOSED]  (Read 88838 times)

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Offline akimbra

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Re: [GB] HEAVY METAL KEYBOARDS [CLOSED]
« Reply #350 on: Fri, 20 November 2020, 15:22:52 »
Nice video!
oh it's my video

Offline PlastikSchnittstelle

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Re: [GB] HEAVY METAL KEYBOARDS [CLOSED]
« Reply #351 on: Fri, 20 November 2020, 15:36:29 »
nice video!

this response is not a good look. shows more about you than the people asking for constant updates, honestly.

there's a reason people are not happy with how things are turning out, and the nonchalant, standoffish responses to paying customers are just fanning the flames. more transparency and less radio silence is needed, and stop guaranteeing deadlines you can't meet.

I have taken plenty of time over the last days to give more insight regarding the delay. I have engaged some of those who are unhappy directly in order to resolve the issue. again I'm sorry for the delays.

Offline akimbra

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Re: [GB] HEAVY METAL KEYBOARDS [CLOSED]
« Reply #352 on: Fri, 20 November 2020, 16:51:31 »
Hey friend, thanks for liking my video, it's always good to see the positive feedback from this community!






I'm sorry but why lie to people? Is there a double standard in providing refunds for the people that ask? Manufacturing hasn't even started and you have yet to figure out how you will be able to do the logistics.

Although, yes, there is a clause in the GB about delays, I have yet to see any concrete update about your GB. I wasn't at all trying to be mean, I only asked that you will show some proof for the things you have stated and the objectives you have accomplished in the past 6 months of this GB.

Edit: I will acknowledge that zujo got his refund as plastik states but that is no reason to lie to people about a double standard.

I have yet to cancel my order and still believe that you can pull through but not by being silent or answering criticism with sarcasm. Please be transparent as it is not too late for this group buy to turn into a successful one!

« Last Edit: Fri, 20 November 2020, 18:18:10 by akimbra »

Offline PlastikSchnittstelle

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Re: [GB] HEAVY METAL KEYBOARDS [CLOSED]
« Reply #353 on: Fri, 20 November 2020, 18:08:59 »
as I have explained in the discord already, there are a few people being very rude and even harassing. I hope it is understandable that I would like to move forward without them being part of the group buy. that is why I gave a refund to those and the ones I assumed were affiliated.

you specifically are very toxic. i would really welcome to be able to refund you but so far you refused to provide me with your order number.

oh and btw, zujo is refunded, that screenshot does not show the whole discussion.
« Last Edit: Fri, 20 November 2020, 18:10:39 by PlastikSchnittstelle »

Offline D-EJ915

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Re: [GB] HEAVY METAL KEYBOARDS [CLOSED]
« Reply #354 on: Fri, 20 November 2020, 18:35:16 »
In the discord I saw "PCB and some parts" are in production? Is there an actual list of what has been produced and is in possession, what is in production currently and what is waiting to be produced? (presumably waiting on the storage area).  I think it would help a bit, thanks!

Offline PlastikSchnittstelle

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Re: [GB] HEAVY METAL KEYBOARDS [CLOSED]
« Reply #355 on: Fri, 20 November 2020, 18:41:47 »
exactly, had told this a few times on the discord already but it keeps drowning in the noise which is caused by a handfull of people. PCBs are in production. the "some parts" is just plates at surface treatment which will go to builders/streamers.

Offline prizeS

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Re: [GB] HEAVY METAL KEYBOARDS [CLOSED]
« Reply #356 on: Fri, 20 November 2020, 20:31:38 »
nice video!

this response is not a good look. shows more about you than the people asking for constant updates, honestly.

there's a reason people are not happy with how things are turning out, and the nonchalant, standoffish responses to paying customers are just fanning the flames. more transparency and less radio silence is needed, and stop guaranteeing deadlines you can't meet.

I have taken plenty of time over the last days to give more insight regarding the delay. I have engaged some of those who are unhappy directly in order to resolve the issue. again I'm sorry for the delays.

yes, i have seen those. but just keep in mind that you are often radio silent for months on end, and pop up a once in a blue moon to state that some other problem has popped up. if you were more consistently providing updates, maybe people wouldn't be as nagging. it's the fact that we don't know when updates will come, whether there's progress, what stage the project is in, etc. add to the fact that when you do respond, you're sarcastic and curt rather than helpful most times. i'm not one to judge, but it doesn't make much sense to respond sarcastically when paying customers have legitimate concerns.

there comes to a point where just apologizing doesn't work anymore, too. you can be sorry for the delay, but that doesn't change the fact that we are once again going to miss your deadline. the reason people are concerned is because every time an update comes, it seems like a new problem arises that should've been dealt with before. and people were kept in the dark regarding what stage the project was in, so to know that production on cases haven't started at all when the projected deadline of Q4 is coming up (which already has been delayed), is pretty surprising to most.

again, i'm just trying to offer constructive criticism from my perspective. i have just been lurking in the discord, and understand that delays are part of GBs. i get that no one is trying to have delays, but when the only updates that come out are just more delays, it's frustrating. i would suggest this, for example: the last update you mentioned the Q4 target, which we are most likely missing. there is no way that the you couldn't have foreseen this storage issue 2 months prior, especially since production has not started all along. you should have mentioned that there could be warehousing/storage issues that could arise, to which might contribute to further delays. also mention that the cases have not been started yet, just the pcbs. - this way people can have a better idea of what's going on, instead of being dropped a bomb 1 month before deadline every update.

i hope this makes sense. the toxic chats are not helpful either, that's for sure.

Offline nathanchere

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Re: [GB] HEAVY METAL KEYBOARDS [CLOSED]
« Reply #357 on: Sat, 21 November 2020, 02:15:16 »
If being "toxic" is prerequisite for getting a refund and getting out of this toxic group buy I can dial it up? The delays are one thing. Lying about progress and the bull**** shaming people for wanting an update (which proved to be well placed concern) is the main bit I'm not ok with. Also those mentioning the runner takes a 3% PayPal refund hit - they have had at best estimate around 200,000€ for over 6 months now and not produced anything. Most loans run at well over 10% if not closet to 20% interest per year, so even if they refunded everything it's still a pretty sweet deal for them. I wish I thought of it first.

Online ddnomad

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Re: [GB] HEAVY METAL KEYBOARDS [CLOSED]
« Reply #358 on: Sat, 21 November 2020, 02:17:50 »
Q2 2021 that is I guess

Offline sagarsiddhpura

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Re: [GB] HEAVY METAL KEYBOARDS [CLOSED]
« Reply #359 on: Sat, 21 November 2020, 05:05:08 »
I am also not happy with how plastic is handling the GB. No concrete updates on what is happening, progress, parts completed, update photos.. nothing... Just some vague reasons on the delay. Saying "Delays are common in GB" thousand times will not solve anything. People will accept delays if you are transparent. Being shady and cryptic and completely silent on details will lead to unhappy people... I hope plastic learns from how others are handling their GB's. All the best

Offline beekey

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Re: [GB] HEAVY METAL KEYBOARDS [CLOSED]
« Reply #360 on: Sat, 21 November 2020, 05:48:24 »
At the core this is about trust. People trust GB runners with their money and faith that something nice will be produced. When GB runners are not showing people some respect with information sharing and updating them, the relationship is on a downhill trajectory.
If then nothing improves over such a long time, people will loose trust and questioning everything. Sorry to say so, but PlastikSchnittstelle GB handling is a complete failure IMHO.
If he wants to gain any trust again, he needs to up his game. If this GB is too much for him to handle, he should refund and call it a day. Start smaller and build up skills in running big logistic projects. Maybe get some people to help and share the burden and fun.

As with all relationships there are two sides and this should not be an excuse for any of the two sides being rude.

To give a complete counter example is the Pandora GB. Koobaczech is fantastic. Super positive guy and he shares a stream of small little updates. This builds something very positive around the GB. People are looking forward to see more pieces come together.

Offline sprigun

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Re: [GB] HEAVY METAL KEYBOARDS [CLOSED]
« Reply #361 on: Sat, 21 November 2020, 06:59:17 »
Most loans run at well over 10% if not closet to 20% interest per year, so even if they refunded everything it's still a pretty sweet deal for them. I wish I thought of it first.
I would like to bank where you bank. 20% interest per year!

Offline nathanchere

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Re: [GB] HEAVY METAL KEYBOARDS [CLOSED]
« Reply #362 on: Sat, 21 November 2020, 07:05:58 »
You understand the difference between interest rates on loans, credit cards etc versus savings, term deposits etc right?

Offline PlastikSchnittstelle

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Re: [GB] HEAVY METAL KEYBOARDS [CLOSED]
« Reply #363 on: Sat, 21 November 2020, 07:32:29 »
the alarming and negative picture that some try to paint of this group buy is really unsettling to me. I had explained in the update section what has been taking time so far and had furthermore mentioned the simple reasons that block the further progress. the pcbs require less space, no further handling and don't need to be checked before being passed on for surface treatment, that's why they are already in production. in hindsight the very optimistic Q3 timeframe wasn't a good idea, still we are within an absolutely usual timeframe compared to other group buys.

what some have been letting out here has nothing to do with valid criticism, it is simply harassment. atm I don't know how to deal with those individuals, sorry that the discord server has become an unfriendly environment.

I hope it is understandable that I would like certain individuals not to be part of this group by anymore, which is the reason I made refunds. delays itself are no reason for a refund, this policy is the same with most other group buys.

Offline nathanchere

  • Posts: 524
Re: [GB] HEAVY METAL KEYBOARDS [CLOSED]
« Reply #364 on: Sat, 21 November 2020, 08:21:40 »
So still confidently on track for Q4 then as last update?

"harassment"

People wanting to know wtf is going on with something they bought when presented with confident timelines is not "harassment". There's an unavoidable loss of trust when you say things like "no updates is good news", citing the amount of time spent on communication as a reason for delays and then not communicating at all for months, people take you at face value and then you abuse that trust. This is not just people being impatient for no reason or "harassing". Viable suggestions have been proposed, e. g. if volume of orders is the issues, nothing stops you from processing them in batches of 200 as per your expected initial volume. If people have to wait for later batches because of that I'm sure some would still complain but most would be understanding and it wouldn't leave a bad taste in the mouth.

Offline ggggggg

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Re: [GB] HEAVY METAL KEYBOARDS [CLOSED]
« Reply #365 on: Sat, 21 November 2020, 10:11:11 »
So still confidently on track for Q4 then as last update?

"harassment"

People wanting to know wtf is going on with something they bought when presented with confident timelines is not "harassment". There's an unavoidable loss of trust when you say things like "no updates is good news", citing the amount of time spent on communication as a reason for delays and then not communicating at all for months, people take you at face value and then you abuse that trust. This is not just people being impatient for no reason or "harassing". Viable suggestions have been proposed, e. g. if volume of orders is the issues, nothing stops you from processing them in batches of 200 as per your expected initial volume. If people have to wait for later batches because of that I'm sure some would still complain but most would be understanding and it wouldn't leave a bad taste in the mouth.

What you're describing is not harassment. But if you're following the direction the Discord server is taking you've seen him being subject to hate and vitriol. There's really no point to the Discord server anymore, if I could I'd lock it down. There are a lot of valid complaints and suggestions being voiced which drown in an endless sea of "wow I haven't been here for a while what happenend omg Plastik you shouldve seen this coming months ago lol what a ****show", ad nauseam. If all that were contained to this thread at least people wouldn't repeat the same rants every 30 minutes.
That being said, the group buy is being handled very badly and I really hope Plastikschnittstelle can filter out the noise and – instead of engaging those in it for the chaos – consider actually replying to some of the suggestions kicking around, such as the above quoted.

*Why not process in batches? If this isn't practical, tell us why please.
*You said sorting all the hardware is a daunting task all by yourself. Have you found someone to help you with that?
*You say you're waiting on two locations where you can sort and store cases. Lots of people have suggested renting out self-storage, have you looked into this? Germany is under a soft lockdown for at least a few more weeks, maybe you can strike a deal with an otherwise closed local business to rent out their space?

Also please for the love of god stop repeating still we are within an absolutely usual timeframe compared to other group buys, that is not the issue.

[...] Saying "Delays are common in GB" thousand times will not solve anything. People will accept delays if you are transparent. [...]


Offline bliss

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Re: [GB] HEAVY METAL KEYBOARDS [CLOSED]
« Reply #366 on: Sat, 21 November 2020, 10:45:07 »
IMO much of the discontent stems from the aggressive timeframe set by Plastik, which resulted in unrealistic expectations. I came to this conclusion after having a look at the round 1 gb, https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=95113.0:
GB start: 2018/04
Shipping: 2019/08
(I triple checked). Let that sink in for a minute. Caveat emptor, indeed.

No bad blood at all, looking forward to my 80 :-*

And I won't bother Plastik on discord so he can concentrate on the process...

Offline prizeS

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Re: [GB] HEAVY METAL KEYBOARDS [CLOSED]
« Reply #367 on: Sat, 21 November 2020, 14:51:55 »
in hindsight the very optimistic Q3 timeframe wasn't a good idea, still we are within an absolutely usual timeframe compared to other group buys.



don't compare yourself to other GBs, compare it to your own timeframe. you set the targets, not the other vendors. what people need and want is more accountability, not more apologies and justifications for failure.

Offline yhs

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Re: [GB] HEAVY METAL KEYBOARDS [CLOSED]
« Reply #368 on: Sat, 21 November 2020, 15:52:38 »
I'll be fully transparent - I have not followed this GB after joining at all. However, I read several unsettling posts lately and now read that GB runner has in fact refunded some of the GB participants, despite it not being GB policy (or standard in other GBs for that matter). Question: are you willing to refund my spot if I were to ask you to do so? I am sure someone else will want the extra board at some point. If not, will acting like a jerk make me eligible for a refund?

This is not a jab at GB runner at all, I am just trying to understand the mechanic here.
« Last Edit: Sat, 21 November 2020, 16:45:08 by yhs »

Offline kajahtaa

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Re: [GB] HEAVY METAL KEYBOARDS [CLOSED]
« Reply #369 on: Sat, 21 November 2020, 17:21:14 »
People make mistakes.

There's nothing 'shady' about Plastik.

I don't care if my board takes another year.

Offline lush_bunny

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Re: [GB] HEAVY METAL KEYBOARDS [CLOSED]
« Reply #370 on: Sat, 21 November 2020, 19:02:35 »
People make mistakes.

There's nothing 'shady' about Plastik.

I don't care if my board takes another year.

I think people have gone way overboard, especially on discord... but I think there's a lot of valid concerns raised. I just don't think badgering Plastik will help, especially when he's trying to find space for the keebs.

Offline prizeS

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Re: [GB] HEAVY METAL KEYBOARDS [CLOSED]
« Reply #371 on: Sat, 21 November 2020, 23:17:58 »
People make mistakes.

There's nothing 'shady' about Plastik.

I don't care if my board takes another year.

nothing wrong with Plastik. no one said he was shady or anything. it's just the way he handled things.

you also can't speak for everyone. not everyone is okay with another year. if everyone just ends up enabling mistakes after mistakes, then the hobby will never progress.

at the end of the day Plastik has had prior GB experience, so we all know he's not shady.

Offline leetuser

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Re: [GB] HEAVY METAL KEYBOARDS [CLOSED]
« Reply #372 on: Sun, 22 November 2020, 00:59:56 »
Honestly this board looks great. Was sad I missed the GB, but reading up to this point I'm happy to just watch this play out. I would love to purchase a board at some point. Does anyone know if there's any plans to sell these ever again after the GB is complete?

Offline parablol

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Re: [GB] HEAVY METAL KEYBOARDS [CLOSED]
« Reply #373 on: Sun, 22 November 2020, 01:09:09 »
I missed the GB and if anyone who got a Planck-compatible case wants to give up your spot, I'll buy it from you.

Offline norb

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Re: [GB] HEAVY METAL KEYBOARDS [CLOSED]
« Reply #374 on: Sun, 22 November 2020, 05:38:20 »
Honestly this board looks great. Was sad I missed the GB, but reading up to this point I'm happy to just watch this play out. I would love to purchase a board at some point. Does anyone know if there's any plans to sell these ever again after the GB is complete?

there will be extras available, you could try to grab one of them.

Offline radam

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Re: [GB] HEAVY METAL KEYBOARDS [CLOSED]
« Reply #375 on: Sun, 22 November 2020, 08:55:05 »
I just want to mention that comparing yourself to other delayed group buys should not be used as positive measurement, or what is to be considered normal. I have noticed a bit of a standoffish attitude from providing updates before it got to this point. If you give yourself a goal, miss it, and tell yourself it's fine because you are still within a normal time frame, you will miss your next goal because pushing dates becomes acceptable. I believe that giving updates, weekly, bi-weekly, or monthly, keeps you feeling accountable and keeps the work in the forefront of your mind. I consider myself a procrastinator and this is how it works. It also gives participants confidence that you are always working on a solution for the current problems. Yes it's work, and you're just one person, but I believe that makes it a little more important.

Offline Vigrith

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Re: [GB] HEAVY METAL KEYBOARDS [CLOSED]
« Reply #376 on: Sun, 22 November 2020, 12:00:07 »
So still confidently on track for Q4 then as last update?

"harassment"

People wanting to know wtf is going on with something they bought when presented with confident timelines is not "harassment". There's an unavoidable loss of trust when you say things like "no updates is good news", citing the amount of time spent on communication as a reason for delays and then not communicating at all for months, people take you at face value and then you abuse that trust. This is not just people being impatient for no reason or "harassing". Viable suggestions have been proposed, e. g. if volume of orders is the issues, nothing stops you from processing them in batches of 200 as per your expected initial volume. If people have to wait for later batches because of that I'm sure some would still complain but most would be understanding and it wouldn't leave a bad taste in the mouth.

What you're describing is not harassment. But if you're following the direction the Discord server is taking you've seen him being subject to hate and vitriol. There's really no point to the Discord server anymore, if I could I'd lock it down. There are a lot of valid complaints and suggestions being voiced which drown in an endless sea of "wow I haven't been here for a while what happenend omg Plastik you shouldve seen this coming months ago lol what a ****show", ad nauseam. If all that were contained to this thread at least people wouldn't repeat the same rants every 30 minutes.
That being said, the group buy is being handled very badly and I really hope Plastikschnittstelle can filter out the noise and – instead of engaging those in it for the chaos – consider actually replying to some of the suggestions kicking around, such as the above quoted.

*Why not process in batches? If this isn't practical, tell us why please.
*You said sorting all the hardware is a daunting task all by yourself. Have you found someone to help you with that?
*You say you're waiting on two locations where you can sort and store cases. Lots of people have suggested renting out self-storage, have you looked into this? Germany is under a soft lockdown for at least a few more weeks, maybe you can strike a deal with an otherwise closed local business to rent out their space?

Also please for the love of god stop repeating still we are within an absolutely usual timeframe compared to other group buys, that is not the issue.

[...] Saying "Delays are common in GB" thousand times will not solve anything. People will accept delays if you are transparent. [...]

Excellent reply. After not reading about this for like 6 months and not even remembering I'd gotten an early bird in the "pre-GB" stage I've just recently looked at a couple things because this thread kept getting bumped and the incessant trolling and just general ridiculous badgering is actually insane, never seen this in any other GB even when Ivan scammed like 80% of GH - not to say people being pissed off isn't warranted because it absolutely is, but good lord.

People may think it's crazy talk but this is why having literally anything be done via discord is an insane detriment to the sanity of anyone involved in any group buy. I swear if this had been done exclusively via Geekhack not even 5% of the toxicity would've been present (as is obviated by the fact the person that seemingly made the "meme" video has 5 posts with a 2020 account, among other things) - discord is a cesspool and the bane of anyone's mental state if they value it, save very specific cases where the servers are heavily gated and properly maintained. I would strongly suggest anyone looking to do anything relating to keyboards take that to heart.
« Last Edit: Sun, 22 November 2020, 12:02:37 by Vigrith »

Online ddnomad

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[GB] HEAVY METAL KEYBOARDS [CLOSED]
« Reply #377 on: Sun, 22 November 2020, 12:56:40 »
So still confidently on track for Q4 then as last update?

"harassment"

People wanting to know wtf is going on with something they bought when presented with confident timelines is not "harassment". There's an unavoidable loss of trust when you say things like "no updates is good news", citing the amount of time spent on communication as a reason for delays and then not communicating at all for months, people take you at face value and then you abuse that trust. This is not just people being impatient for no reason or "harassing". Viable suggestions have been proposed, e. g. if volume of orders is the issues, nothing stops you from processing them in batches of 200 as per your expected initial volume. If people have to wait for later batches because of that I'm sure some would still complain but most would be understanding and it wouldn't leave a bad taste in the mouth.

What you're describing is not harassment. But if you're following the direction the Discord server is taking you've seen him being subject to hate and vitriol. There's really no point to the Discord server anymore, if I could I'd lock it down. There are a lot of valid complaints and suggestions being voiced which drown in an endless sea of "wow I haven't been here for a while what happenend omg Plastik you shouldve seen this coming months ago lol what a ****show", ad nauseam. If all that were contained to this thread at least people wouldn't repeat the same rants every 30 minutes.
That being said, the group buy is being handled very badly and I really hope Plastikschnittstelle can filter out the noise and – instead of engaging those in it for the chaos – consider actually replying to some of the suggestions kicking around, such as the above quoted.

*Why not process in batches? If this isn't practical, tell us why please.
*You said sorting all the hardware is a daunting task all by yourself. Have you found someone to help you with that?
*You say you're waiting on two locations where you can sort and store cases. Lots of people have suggested renting out self-storage, have you looked into this? Germany is under a soft lockdown for at least a few more weeks, maybe you can strike a deal with an otherwise closed local business to rent out their space?

Also please for the love of god stop repeating still we are within an absolutely usual timeframe compared to other group buys, that is not the issue.

[...] Saying "Delays are common in GB" thousand times will not solve anything. People will accept delays if you are transparent. [...]

Excellent reply. After not reading about this for like 6 months and not even remembering I'd gotten an early bird in the "pre-GB" stage I've just recently looked at a couple things because this thread kept getting bumped and the incessant trolling and just general ridiculous badgering is actually insane, never seen this in any other GB even when Ivan scammed like 80% of GH - not to say people being pissed off isn't warranted because it absolutely is, but good lord.

People may think it's crazy talk but this is why having literally anything be done via discord is an insane detriment to the sanity of anyone involved in any group buy. I swear if this had been done exclusively via Geekhack not even 5% of the toxicity would've been present (as is obviated by the fact the person that seemingly made the "meme" video has 5 posts with a 2020 account, among other things) - discord is a cesspool and the bane of anyone's mental state if they value it, save very specific cases where the servers are heavily gated and properly maintained. I would strongly suggest anyone looking to do anything relating to keyboards take that to heart.
“Join my discord server here”

It seems like having a separate Discord server nowadays is the ****. I’ve personally joined like at least 20 Discord servers and 99% of a time they serve 0 purpose. That is, after you disable all notifications cause otherwise you’ll go insane in a matter of days.

It seems like the whole concept of IM got misjudged and misapplied all over the place while insisting that “community engagement” is the way to go.

I have to disagree. In our age of information the quality and cohesiveness of thought is far superior to a sheer quantity.

Addressing the GB. Mistakes were made and that’s fine. Mistakes are the best way to learn and improve. The GB runner just need to address the suggestions on this thread and finally start to provide meaningful updates.

Update saying there are no updates is better that no update at all. A paragraph or two will suffice. It will take literally 15 minutes weekly to draft it and send here.

* Updates: Geekhack thread + mailing list (something like a trello board for currently worked on items will do wonders as well)
* Support: mail (maybe zendesk if GB runner is feeling fancy)
* Chatter: Discord server which is 100% ignored by the GB runner. Just make it clear that Discord is for customers to discuss and share. Not for updates. Not for support.

I get that managing things may be challenging especially when you get overwhelmed with a large order quantity etc. But above would take a day to setup at most while addressing the majority of constructive criticism at this point.

“it is still better the other group buys” -> “my original estimate was indeed overly optimistic and I apologize for this. The current rough ETA is X because of A,B and C”

“currently I’m communicating with multiple vendors regarding X. I should have a reply from them by Y. That will unblock A,B,C but D is still blocked on Z.”
« Last Edit: Sun, 22 November 2020, 12:58:22 by ddnomad »

Offline perry4761

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Re: [GB] HEAVY METAL KEYBOARDS [CLOSED]
« Reply #378 on: Sun, 22 November 2020, 16:13:25 »

Addressing the GB. Mistakes were made and that’s fine. Mistakes are the best way to learn and improve. The GB runner just need to address the suggestions on this thread and finally start to provide meaningful updates.

Update saying there are no updates is better that no update at all. A paragraph or two will suffice. It will take literally 15 minutes weekly to draft it and send here.

* Updates: Geekhack thread + mailing list (something like a trello board for currently worked on items will do wonders as well)
* Support: mail (maybe zendesk if GB runner is feeling fancy)
* Chatter: Discord server which is 100% ignored by the GB runner. Just make it clear that Discord is for customers to discuss and share. Not for updates. Not for support.

I get that managing things may be challenging especially when you get overwhelmed with a large order quantity etc. But above would take a day to setup at most while addressing the majority of constructive criticism at this point.

“it is still better the other group buys” -> “my original estimate was indeed overly optimistic and I apologize for this. The current rough ETA is X because of A,B and C”

“currently I’m communicating with multiple vendors regarding X. I should have a reply from them by Y. That will unblock A,B,C but D is still blocked on Z.”

We've been asking for that since October, and the answer we've had is "what I'm doing is in line with other GB's, I don't understand why everyone is so mad, I'm not going to do updates every two weeks that's crazy".

Plastik needs to acknowledge that we aren't mad because we think he's running away with our money, or because of delays. We are mad because there is a lack of MEANINGFUL communication, and because the apparent cause of delays seems to be procrastination. Maybe it's not, but we don't have any updates to tell us it's not, all we know is that it isn't covid and that renting a space is a problem, and some solutions offered by the community (doing it in batches) have been ignored. There might be a very good reason why that's not a viable option, but please tell us! You don't have to address every question from everyone, and certainly not as a direct reply to each question, but addressing the most commonly asked questions is not unreasonable and can be done in a single post that would take as little as 20 minutes to write.

We're halfway into the Q4 estimate, and we haven't been told yet that the Q4 estimate, which was meant to be a "sure thing" is no longer feasible, but with the info we currently have it is obvious that this board will be delayed to 2021, and at this point Q2 2021 seems more likely than Q1.

Answering the following questions would help a ton with the vitriol from the community that this GB has been experiencing in the last few days:

What steps are being taken to resolve the issues that are stopping this group buy from going forward? Any news on the two places you were looking to rent? Were you able to find a manufacturer that will pack the screws and small components for you? If it took you 7 months to rent a space and find a screw manufacturer, how are you expecting to QC 1100+ boards and even more PCBs on your own before summer? Has production started (besides the PCBs)? If not, when and how long do you think it will take? Do you need help from the members of the community for anything?

I don't understand how this group buy became so secretive after such an open IC.

For what it's worth, I think that some of what happened in the Discord server was extremely rude and mean-spirited. It is best to ignore those who spend half of their day spewing hate at the project without contributing to a meaningful conversation, but to do so without addressing the constructive criticism and the solutions proposed by the more reasonable participants comes off as tone-deaf and is why the anger has carried on over here as well.

As one of those who has participated in the early bird funding of this project back in January, I still have faith in the runner and the project, but I wish there was more transparency, even in the "no updates" updates (ex: "still waiting on a place before manufacturing starts, the price of the places I was waiting was too high" or "still negotiating for the rental" or "made an offer, still waiting for answer" or "started manufacturing the first 200 boards" etc).

Good luck with everything Plastik, I can't wait to get my hands on my HMKB-80!
Mechs are not a hobby, they're a god damn addiction.

Offline Liub

  • Posts: 34
Re: [GB] HEAVY METAL KEYBOARDS [CLOSED]
« Reply #379 on: Mon, 23 November 2020, 01:11:13 »
For what it's worth, I think that some of what happened in the Discord server was extremely rude and mean-spirited. It is best to ignore those who spend half of their day spewing hate at the project without contributing to a meaningful conversation, but to do so without addressing the constructive criticism and the solutions proposed by the more reasonable participants comes off as tone-deaf and is why the anger has carried on over here as well.

As one of those who has participated in the early bird funding of this project back in January, I still have faith in the runner and the project, but I wish there was more transparency, even in the "no updates" updates (ex: "still waiting on a place before manufacturing starts, the price of the places I was waiting was too high" or "still negotiating for the rental" or "made an offer, still waiting for answer" or "started manufacturing the first 200 boards" etc).

Exact same position as a participant in the early funding, exactly my same thought. :thumb:

Offline Emir

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Re: [GB] HEAVY METAL KEYBOARDS [CLOSED]
« Reply #380 on: Mon, 23 November 2020, 09:12:18 »
lumina vibes

Offline nathanchere

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Re: [GB] HEAVY METAL KEYBOARDS [CLOSED]
« Reply #381 on: Mon, 23 November 2020, 09:27:59 »
lumina vibes
Exactly. On so many levels.

Offline sprigun

  • Posts: 19
Re: [GB] HEAVY METAL KEYBOARDS [CLOSED]
« Reply #382 on: Mon, 23 November 2020, 15:12:39 »
You understand the difference between interest rates on loans, credit cards etc versus savings, term deposits etc right?

Show me a savings or term deposit loan with 10-20% interest
This is not a credit card loan
You understand realities vs drama?

Offline tectonicplate

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Re: [GB] HEAVY METAL KEYBOARDS [CLOSED]
« Reply #383 on: Mon, 23 November 2020, 18:29:42 »
I joined the Plastik's original SKB GB… and it took forever with far fewer boards to deal with. Eventually I got my board and it was great, ultimately worth the long wait. I decided to also join this GB knowing full well, regardless of what the GB runner claimed, this would most likely be a longer wait. I'm OK with waiting, and I've been fine with the communications, but these were my expectations going into this. Excited to get this board, whenever it shows up.

Offline ponchofreedo

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Re: [GB] HEAVY METAL KEYBOARDS [CLOSED]
« Reply #384 on: Mon, 23 November 2020, 19:37:31 »
I think people have gone way overboard, especially on discord... but I think there's a lot of valid concerns raised. I just don't think badgering Plastik will help, especially when he's trying to find space for the keebs.

its been beyond badgering at times. my take on it right now: we're coming up on the holidays, so things will probably be slowed down anyways. would be great to have some more meaningful transparency, as has been pointed out, but this is far from the worst groupbuy (as some people have been claiming) that ive been in or seen. some people just gotta chill and let the man do his thing, but it would be nice to get more meaningful transparency. its kind of like the capsunlocked scenario, but at least compared to that one, we haven't been gaslit every week.

Offline lush_bunny

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Re: [GB] HEAVY METAL KEYBOARDS [CLOSED]
« Reply #385 on: Tue, 24 November 2020, 15:07:34 »
lumina vibes
Exactly. On so many levels.

I joined the hobby relatively recently (2019), what's up with lumina?

I think people have gone way overboard, especially on discord... but I think there's a lot of valid concerns raised. I just don't think badgering Plastik will help, especially when he's trying to find space for the keebs.

its been beyond badgering at times. my take on it right now: we're coming up on the holidays, so things will probably be slowed down anyways. would be great to have some more meaningful transparency, as has been pointed out, but this is far from the worst groupbuy (as some people have been claiming) that ive been in or seen. some people just gotta chill and let the man do his thing, but it would be nice to get more meaningful transparency. its kind of like the capsunlocked scenario, but at least compared to that one, we haven't been gaslit every week.

I have the same expectations mainly due to my experiences with my GBs. I'm not sure how much of the fears and concerns are driven by people even newer than me to the hobby.

Offline Topweasel

  • Posts: 4
Re: [GB] HEAVY METAL KEYBOARDS [CLOSED]
« Reply #386 on: Tue, 24 November 2020, 21:01:36 »
I think people have gone way overboard, especially on discord... but I think there's a lot of valid concerns raised. I just don't think badgering Plastik will help, especially when he's trying to find space for the keebs.

its been beyond badgering at times. my take on it right now: we're coming up on the holidays, so things will probably be slowed down anyways. would be great to have some more meaningful transparency, as has been pointed out, but this is far from the worst groupbuy (as some people have been claiming) that ive been in or seen. some people just gotta chill and let the man do his thing, but it would be nice to get more meaningful transparency. its kind of like the capsunlocked scenario, but at least compared to that one, we haven't been gaslit every week.

It is beyond badgering. I think its about to self destruct. I also think its where Group buys are going. This isn't 50-100 people glad that someone has the same vision as them, 10-50 people just glad they were able to order. This isn't specialty molded and colored plastic that's allowed to run late on everything even though they have manufactured hundreds of Group buys. This is 2000 people that found a semi interesting, semi affordable, stylized option, just as the mech market exploded. It's going to run into the same issue that Kickstarter saw years ago and the pressure of it is going to have a lose some creators and some group buys dying with no refunds, may taking a vendor down with it. Kickstarter had a hard time convincing people that it wasn't a store front, that any delivery times relied on the fact that the kickstarted product was successful and could hit projections, that nothing on the pledge was even guaranteed. You had kickstarters where to make sure it was successful and was able to provide the pledges to people who paid, had to ship to retailers first. But no, that isn't allowed, people would rather the business they funded folded as long as they got their product and got it first. We still see this now with Epomaker and Durgod getting trashed for shipping their crowdfunded returns with retail and storefront sales (where in a way both used Kickstarter, indegogo and so on as pre-order systems then crowdfunding).

Sorry getting a little ranty there and can go on and on. But the point being that the more people involved the more likely you have someone who think a projection is written in stone and they will have said part by the time some event rolls around. Or someone that thinks that any deviation from projections is affront to them. Or someone that thinks that because they input money they get to choose how a business is run. What happened here will happen again, and eventually a really big one will crash and burn, because they would rather be right then get their product. Here Plastik is doing what he can. Maybe he was shortsighted. Maybe isn't moving as fast as he can. But all it takes is one or two people travesty this, and omg why isn't your mind only on getting me my hardware that, and so on, to get some people talk like well maybe he didn't need to say it this way but maybe. I hate to say it but its the same stuff that the hate groups get so many people involve. They can be as loud and brash as they want to be but as long as they can get enough people to pick out something they can hold onto it escalates.

The truth of the matter is that this isn't a free market purchase and as much as anyone would have done it differently than Plastik, we got an est not a delivery date, we got no promises of updates. In fact the exact opposite we were told updates would be minimal. We didn't order a finished and stocked item. It will come in Plastik has had them produced, QC, packaged, and shipped through whatever logistics process he can come up with. It was always that way. All the lynching is going to do is cause Plastik to hermit up more, may cause us to lose a creator we didn't need to lose. All pushing for refunds does is create a self fulfilling prophecy (as each dollar returned is less to cover shipping costs and such depending on where in manufacturing it is. One guy mentions how I am sure the board will sell. Maybe, but only if it gets to that point. We don't know how much of the price is manufacturing, shipping, and margin. Its fine in the short term if it only affects the margins. But I am guessing that is relatively small for something like this. The questions is when does the house of cards fail, 10 returns, 20, 100. I wouldn't want to find out.

Next up will probably be Louis with the Primus. Much more expensive. Has already had some tension build on some of the side GB stuff and at least one he was full sponsoring. He updates more often. But its still 1 person QCing 1000 much more demanding GB. Cannon probs going to have fun if Sat75R2 sees any delays. Heck we have to keep in mind how toxic it gets when entitle brats don't get what they want. People were tearing into NK for selling out a $100 keyboard. This hobby is going to see a bubble burst soon maybe late 2021. Probably will look more like 2019 after that.

Offline KZzzz

  • Posts: 19
Re: [GB] HEAVY METAL KEYBOARDS [CLOSED]
« Reply #387 on: Tue, 24 November 2020, 22:46:30 »
I think people have gone way overboard, especially on discord... but I think there's a lot of valid concerns raised. I just don't think badgering Plastik will help, especially when he's trying to find space for the keebs.

its been beyond badgering at times. my take on it right now: we're coming up on the holidays, so things will probably be slowed down anyways. would be great to have some more meaningful transparency, as has been pointed out, but this is far from the worst groupbuy (as some people have been claiming) that ive been in or seen. some people just gotta chill and let the man do his thing, but it would be nice to get more meaningful transparency. its kind of like the capsunlocked scenario, but at least compared to that one, we haven't been gaslit every week.

It is beyond badgering. I think its about to self destruct. I also think its where Group buys are going. This isn't 50-100 people glad that someone has the same vision as them, 10-50 people just glad they were able to order. This isn't specialty molded and colored plastic that's allowed to run late on everything even though they have manufactured hundreds of Group buys. This is 2000 people that found a semi interesting, semi affordable, stylized option, just as the mech market exploded. It's going to run into the same issue that Kickstarter saw years ago and the pressure of it is going to have a lose some creators and some group buys dying with no refunds, may taking a vendor down with it. Kickstarter had a hard time convincing people that it wasn't a store front, that any delivery times relied on the fact that the kickstarted product was successful and could hit projections, that nothing on the pledge was even guaranteed. You had kickstarters where to make sure it was successful and was able to provide the pledges to people who paid, had to ship to retailers first. But no, that isn't allowed, people would rather the business they funded folded as long as they got their product and got it first. We still see this now with Epomaker and Durgod getting trashed for shipping their crowdfunded returns with retail and storefront sales (where in a way both used Kickstarter, indegogo and so on as pre-order systems then crowdfunding).

Sorry getting a little ranty there and can go on and on. But the point being that the more people involved the more likely you have someone who think a projection is written in stone and they will have said part by the time some event rolls around. Or someone that thinks that any deviation from projections is affront to them. Or someone that thinks that because they input money they get to choose how a business is run. What happened here will happen again, and eventually a really big one will crash and burn, because they would rather be right then get their product. Here Plastik is doing what he can. Maybe he was shortsighted. Maybe isn't moving as fast as he can. But all it takes is one or two people travesty this, and omg why isn't your mind only on getting me my hardware that, and so on, to get some people talk like well maybe he didn't need to say it this way but maybe. I hate to say it but its the same stuff that the hate groups get so many people involve. They can be as loud and brash as they want to be but as long as they can get enough people to pick out something they can hold onto it escalates.

The truth of the matter is that this isn't a free market purchase and as much as anyone would have done it differently than Plastik, we got an est not a delivery date, we got no promises of updates. In fact the exact opposite we were told updates would be minimal. We didn't order a finished and stocked item. It will come in Plastik has had them produced, QC, packaged, and shipped through whatever logistics process he can come up with. It was always that way. All the lynching is going to do is cause Plastik to hermit up more, may cause us to lose a creator we didn't need to lose. All pushing for refunds does is create a self fulfilling prophecy (as each dollar returned is less to cover shipping costs and such depending on where in manufacturing it is. One guy mentions how I am sure the board will sell. Maybe, but only if it gets to that point. We don't know how much of the price is manufacturing, shipping, and margin. Its fine in the short term if it only affects the margins. But I am guessing that is relatively small for something like this. The questions is when does the house of cards fail, 10 returns, 20, 100. I wouldn't want to find out.

Next up will probably be Louis with the Primus. Much more expensive. Has already had some tension build on some of the side GB stuff and at least one he was full sponsoring. He updates more often. But its still 1 person QCing 1000 much more demanding GB. Cannon probs going to have fun if Sat75R2 sees any delays. Heck we have to keep in mind how toxic it gets when entitle brats don't get what they want. People were tearing into NK for selling out a $100 keyboard. This hobby is going to see a bubble burst soon maybe late 2021. Probably will look more like 2019 after that.

People need to realize that whatever the creator does, it is by their virtue, not out of necessity. Nothing is out necessity, because this is a enthusiast operated ecosystem. Anyone can pitch their ideas and host some sort of sale, and that's a double edge sword. Especially for a group buy, you need to understand the risk at hand, that at any moment the creator can call it a fail and move on without any final product.

That being said, the inaction of veteran hobbyists and creators is just sad. The hobby is growing, but the ways things work aren't. The groupbuy framework isn't meant for the large amount of customers, and I doubt it will ever really adapt to the growing hobby. So yeah, I guess this hobby will "crash" eventually, but it doesn't seen like a concern to anyone, certainly not you. Because at the end of the day, the nature of cool, novelty products sold online is its exclusivity, and the less people knowing this hobby just mean an easier win at a raffle for the next one-of-a-kind quirky keyboard you want.

As a side note, you mentioned the Primus groupbuy. I am not familiar with the situation (cool looking board btw), but I don't thinking bring up another unrelated GB in this thread is responsible. You are projecting an unofficial status of an unrelated group buy here, which would just mislead people. I think your comments on the status of the Primus GB would interests people who actually joined Primus GB more than the people here.

Offline Liub

  • Posts: 34
Re: [GB] HEAVY METAL KEYBOARDS [CLOSED]
« Reply #388 on: Tue, 24 November 2020, 23:27:36 »
Don't want to quote the two posts above me, but absolutely on point.

Offline Topweasel

  • Posts: 4
Re: [GB] HEAVY METAL KEYBOARDS [CLOSED]
« Reply #389 on: Wed, 25 November 2020, 09:24:16 »

People need to realize that whatever the creator does, it is by their virtue, not out of necessity. Nothing is out necessity, because this is a enthusiast operated ecosystem. Anyone can pitch their ideas and host some sort of sale, and that's a double edge sword. Especially for a group buy, you need to understand the risk at hand, that at any moment the creator can call it a fail and move on without any final product.
Agreed.

That being said, the inaction of veteran hobbyists and creators is just sad. The hobby is growing, but the ways things work aren't. The groupbuy framework isn't meant for the large amount of customers, and I doubt it will ever really adapt to the growing hobby. So yeah, I guess this hobby will "crash" eventually, but it doesn't seen like a concern to anyone, certainly not you. Because at the end of the day, the nature of cool, novelty products sold online is its exclusivity, and the less people knowing this hobby just mean an easier win at a raffle for the next one-of-a-kind quirky keyboard you want.

Who said I wasn't worried. I wouldn't have made that long of a post if didn't care. But I also know that it is probably inevitable and as a consumer I can only affect this by voting by wallet. I am not worried about GB's. Ill take my chances on boards I want and if the options move in a more tenable way (like companies picking up the slack) and there are boards I want ill go that way. You have to remember that hobbies have collapsed and came back stronger. Would the Nintendo have had the success that they had if the game market didn't implode, would there have been a push for gaming on PC's? The Dotcom bubble burst needed to happen to get the web experience we have today. If I had to predict the change would be less community run group buys, and more business run ones like KBD. Or just new products with supply waves like Novelkeys, the more unique selections go back to sub 100 parts with brands everyone knows like Keycult. Not a whole lot different, just more enthusiast boards from companies we already associate with, and known low supply luxury options, but the GB a week by a business that doesn't actually stock anything, or a creator just going out on their own will be dead.

As a side note, you mentioned the Primus groupbuy. I am not familiar with the situation (cool looking board btw), but I don't thinking bring up another unrelated GB in this thread is responsible. You are projecting an unofficial status of an unrelated group buy here, which would just mislead people. I think your comments on the status of the Primus GB would interests people who actually joined Primus GB more than the people here.
I guess if the fear mentioning it get people to do the same thing. Sure. Your right. I am not going to change what I said at this point but I will keep it in mind going forward. I think my point is legit though, but lets talk on more general terms I am on several custom's discord and there are one or two that have the same side discussions that started a couple of months ago with HMKB. There more people you have involved in the Group buy the higher likelihood of dealing with people who are unable to understand what a group buy really is.