Author Topic: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps  (Read 18493 times)

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Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #100 on: Thu, 14 May 2020, 10:20:53 »

Also, why no arrow on the numpad and accent enter keys?

I don't think IBM or Lenovo ever put an arrow on their numpad enter keys.

For that matter, the numpad on IBM keyboards always had * and / (instead of Cherry's × and ÷ symbols).

Two humble requests: adding US-ISO to the ISO kit, and the more important one:

since you are trying to capture the old school feel, imo the old numpad icons ("/" and "*") would be better suited for this set.

I do prefer "/ *" on the numpad. As mentioned before, I'm not really a fan of "Code" as an OS key. Not fond of 1.5u Backspace either. Nit picky things.

I try to strike the right balance of OG and trendy. This is more of a Cherry/IBM hybrid. The symbols fit better with the icon mods.

Offline voodoo6k

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Offline konstantin

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #102 on: Thu, 14 May 2020, 10:24:46 »
I do prefer "/ *" on the numpad. As mentioned before, I'm not really a fan of "Code" as an OS key. Not fond of 1.5u Backspace either. Nit picky things.

I try to strike the right balance of OG and trendy. This is more of a Cherry/IBM hybrid. The symbols fit better with the icon mods.

Have you considered using System for the OS keys? “System” on 1.25u, 1.5u, and “Sys” on 1u.
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Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #103 on: Thu, 14 May 2020, 10:28:31 »
Quote
Code

Are you a cashier?  ;D

Offline enrique.aliaga

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #104 on: Thu, 14 May 2020, 11:56:31 »
The set not being a faithful representation of the OG board is the reason I’m not joining this GB.

Hopefully it gets run faithfully some day in the not-so-distant future.


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Offline depletedvespene

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #105 on: Thu, 14 May 2020, 13:33:56 »

I try to strike the right balance of OG and trendy. This is more of a Cherry/IBM hybrid. The symbols fit better with the icon mods.

Speaking of which, why haven't you gotten rid of the (rightly maligned) "Windows" icons/symbols yet? Generally speaking, we all agree that any logo is better. And specially on a set inspired by IBM(/Lenovo)'s keyboards.

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #106 on: Thu, 14 May 2020, 14:08:29 »

The set not being a faithful representation of the OG board is the reason I’m not joining this GB.

Hopefully it gets run faithfully some day in the not-so-distant future.


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I try to strike the right balance of OG and trendy. This is more of a Cherry/IBM hybrid. The symbols fit better with the icon mods.

Speaking of which, why haven't you gotten rid of the (rightly maligned) "Windows" icons/symbols yet? Generally speaking, we all agree that any logo is better. And specially on a set inspired by IBM(/Lenovo)'s keyboards.

I do appreciate the tough love we get around here! Some people like the Windows keys (myself included).

Did you want me to substitute them for Meta ◇ symbols? I actually thought I was doing everyone a favour by not including the Windows keys in the base set... Have you noticed that they are optional?

I feel like you're trying to checkmate me here... I'm waiting for this: "No, they are not! Because us international users are forced to buy the icon modifiers!" ;)


Here's what I wrote on DT, for anyone wondering about your ISO/vertical Enter concerns:

Quote
The main motivation behind combining the ISO and icon modifier kits was that offering both icon+text and icon-only ISO options would require 4 vertical Enter keys in total (2 blue + 2 grey) to retain compatibility with the RGB modifiers.

We decided on icon-only (for now...) because that's how IBM, Cherry and most other manufacturers did it, historically. Thus moving ISO to the icon modifier kit was logical (and helps meeting MOQ for both). In addition, moving it there allows us to include more keys such as Alt Gr, which I like seeing.

In hindsight, it does look like we're "forcing" the icon modifiers onto the international users. I'm trying to find another solution. Sorry about the bad wording, and thanks for the picture!

Offline depletedvespene

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #107 on: Thu, 14 May 2020, 14:54:08 »


I try to strike the right balance of OG and trendy. This is more of a Cherry/IBM hybrid. The symbols fit better with the icon mods.

Speaking of which, why haven't you gotten rid of the (rightly maligned) "Windows" icons/symbols yet? Generally speaking, we all agree that any logo is better. And specially on a set inspired by IBM(/Lenovo)'s keyboards.

I do appreciate the tough love we get around here! Some people like the Windows keys (myself included).

Everyone is entitled to its own modicum of bad taste. ;)

(but the Windows logo is still an abject, abominable sight)



Did you want me to substitute them for Meta ◇ symbols? I actually thought I was doing everyone a favour by not including the Windows keys in the base set... Have you noticed that they are optional?

They stain the set. Even if they remain unused and hidden away. This is, like, the objective & undeniable truth and stuff (YMMV).


Jokes aside, as per a proper replacement goes, I'm very strongly of the opinion of the opinion of "Anything but this!" so, indeed, most things are fine by me. As things go, I used to prefer "Meta" as the legend and ◇ as the icon version of meta, but lately I've taken a liking to konstantin's suggestion of "System"/"Sys" (just don't do that shebang thing - it tries to be cute but fails).


Also, I'm not sure if using the Windows logos STILL require a license payment to Microsoft. What if that is still the case?




I feel like you're trying to checkmate me here... I'm waiting for this: "No, they are not! Because us international users are forced to buy the icon modifiers!" ;)


Well, I like the icon modifiers (except the Windows logos!), so that's actually fine by me!  :cool:


I think the best compromise for a set is to go for the "English (US), terminal style" keys added to the base kit (1.25U left Shift, R4 <>, R3 \| and (at least) one vertical Enter key); this allows proper and complete support for one national layout (English (US), over an ISO, ANSI or ANSISO keyboard) and avoids the "backslash-pipe duplication" some people dislike.

Aditionally, an optional kit can add the necessary keys to support English (UK) over ISO, if there are indeed enough British users interested in the set (or, for that matter, do a Norde or a Norde UK kit, etc.).

The main thing is to not fall into the trap of supporting only English (US) over ANSI + English (UK) over ISO (or worse, only partial support for the latter).


Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #108 on: Thu, 14 May 2020, 15:11:41 »
[...]
Well, I like the icon modifiers (except the Windows logos!), so that's actually fine by me!  :cool:
[...]

So why are we arguing? :p

I hate to quote someone out of context, but the two biggest proponents (in this thread) for base set ISO are konstantin and yourself:

konstantin said it was "smart" to put ISO with icon mods, and you're actually fine with it?

Offline depletedvespene

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #109 on: Thu, 14 May 2020, 15:21:35 »
[...]
Well, I like the icon modifiers (except the Windows logos!), so that's actually fine by me!  :cool:
[...]

So why are we arguing? :p

This IS geekhack, is it not? ;)


I hate to quote someone out of context, but the two biggest proponents (in this thread) for base set ISO are konstantin and yourself:

konstantin said it was "smart" to put ISO with icon mods, and you're actually fine with it?

As compromises go, this is workable. I still think the "minimal ISO" subset (short left Shift, R4 <>, R3 \| and one vertical Enter) ought to always be in the base kit.



Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #110 on: Thu, 14 May 2020, 15:23:34 »
[...]
Well, I like the icon modifiers (except the Windows logos!), so that's actually fine by me!  :cool:
[...]

So why are we arguing? :p

This IS geekhack, is it not? ;)


I hate to quote someone out of context, but the two biggest proponents (in this thread) for base set ISO are konstantin and yourself:

konstantin said it was "smart" to put ISO with icon mods, and you're actually fine with it?

As compromises go, this is workable. I still think the "minimal ISO" subset (short left Shift, R4 <>, R3 \| and one vertical Enter) ought to always be in the base kit.

I will be getting a quote for a base kit that includes basic ISO-US compatibility (vertical Enter, 1.25u Shift and both R3/4 \|). That said, I'm also removing ISO-UK from the icon mods (leaving only the icon Enters).

Offline ideus

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #111 on: Thu, 14 May 2020, 15:41:57 »
I have posted on this previously and do not want to be repetitive, so this is the second and last time that I will bother you with this: You have to take care of preventing the irregular legends for icon modifiers to be produced. In particular, the long arrow in the enter key. GMK has stated that those legends being irregular is just normal, which is not the case with OG Cherry keys.

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #112 on: Thu, 14 May 2020, 15:46:35 »
I have posted on this previously and do not want to be repetitive, so this is the second and last time that I will bother you with this: You have to take care of preventing the irregular legends for icon modifiers to be produced. In particular, the long arrow in the enter key. GMK has stated that those legends being irregular is just normal, which is not the case with OG Cherry keys.

No problem. I think I replied to your comment. I am not really aware of the issue, do you have any pictures of the irregular Enter keys so I can better explain it to GMK?

« Last Edit: Fri, 15 May 2020, 11:45:41 by voodoo6k »

Offline Ensaum

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #113 on: Thu, 14 May 2020, 17:54:30 »
Any chance of adding some of the novelties to the add-on pack? Specifically the blue fn keys and media keys in WS1 on CR?

Offline Pejano

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #114 on: Thu, 14 May 2020, 18:56:27 »
As a ThinkPad/Minila fan from the UK, I'm totally part of this so long as the relevant kits are made. Thanks!

Are GMK actually making 3u keys now?

Offline equalunique

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #115 on: Thu, 14 May 2020, 19:02:52 »
Looks neat, I'm down for the rgb and accent kit but not really a fan of the black and gray together.

Just to be clear, as a general response, the black is the same as WoB (CR), and dark grey is the same as the GMK Dolch modifiers (N9), very common colours to maximize compatibility.

This is basically like inverted (Sky) MoDo with white legends.

Would be cool if you could have a kit with the same drilled keys as GMK Tex Yoda

Show Image


I should think the people who bought TEX yoda and shinobi would be interested, though not sure how many there are
Got the same idea, so +1

No promises, but we can look into this...
Got a Tex Yoda II & a Shinobi in the mail.

For the Shinobi, GMK keys would be amazing, but I think the main challenge is the 0.75u keys at the top.

For both, I wonder if it would make more sense to have a 3D-printable jig that can hold the center keys in place for DIY drilling. On the other hand, AFAIK those special Tex Yoda sets from GMK came with the keys drilled, so they are presumably capable of doing it again.

Shinobi is not possible.

As for the Yoda, if we can get our hands on the machined G H B keys, then adding the spaces should be a no brainer.

I assume 2 x 1.25u and 1 x 1u convex is preferred for the thumb buttons?
1.25u R4 convex wasn't available when that GMK Tex Yoda keyset premiered. Not sure, but could be the same case for 1u R4C too. Now that both are available, it seems to me they'd be the preferred combo.

Opened up a Shinobi box today. Yeah, it's definitely not going to work.
  • There are 0.75u keys used for the F-row and above, as well as for the arrow cluster below.
  • It also uses a very rare 4.5u size spacebar.
  • The G, H, and B keys are quite different from the ones produced for the Yoda - more material is removed from the bottoms and top.
  • The bottom mouse keys are also all 1.25u instead of the 1.25u+1u+1.25u arrangement found on the Yoda.
Too bad! GMK ABS double-shot keycaps would be a nice improvement over the Shinobi's stock Laser-foamed/ablated ones.

Offline godofdeath

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #116 on: Thu, 14 May 2020, 19:58:40 »
Can I get a F13 key?
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Offline konstantin

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #117 on: Fri, 15 May 2020, 08:05:12 »
I hate to quote someone out of context, but the two biggest proponents (in this thread) for base set ISO are konstantin and yourself:

konstantin said it was "smart" to put ISO with icon mods, and you're actually fine with it?

Indeed, that's taking what I said very much out of context :) While the idea is smart when considered in isolation, in this case it does a lot more harm than good to the set, in my opinion. It's good that you asked for a quote for a base kit with the 4 basic ISO keys; that will be a good indicator of what should be done with the ISO support moving forward.


By the way, I'm not sure what this reply was in regards to:
Quote
Code

Are you a cashier?  ;D
but lmk what you think about the System/Sys suggestion.


I think the best compromise for a set is to go for the "English (US), terminal style" keys added to the base kit (1.25U left Shift, R4 <>, R3 \| and (at least) one vertical Enter key); this allows proper and complete support for one national layout (English (US), over an ISO, ANSI or ANSISO keyboard) and avoids the "backslash-pipe duplication" some people dislike.

I agree. I wrote more about this issue here. I see voodoo seems to be fond of surveys; it includes an interpretation of data from an actual survey! ;)
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Offline kokugatsu

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #118 on: Fri, 15 May 2020, 11:45:52 »
I want more hack keys

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #119 on: Fri, 15 May 2020, 11:53:34 »
Any chance of adding some of the novelties to the add-on pack? Specifically the blue fn keys and media keys in WS1 on CR?

Hi Ensaum. There won't be any blue Fn keys in the accent kit. As a solution, I suggest just getting the novelties, as the difference in legend colour is quite small.

If we add anything to the accent kit, it will be an icon+text vertical Enter (ISO), then some blue on CR Fn keys (unlikely due to the average budget).

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #120 on: Fri, 15 May 2020, 11:54:40 »
Looks neat, I'm down for the rgb and accent kit but not really a fan of the black and gray together.

Just to be clear, as a general response, the black is the same as WoB (CR), and dark grey is the same as the GMK Dolch modifiers (N9), very common colours to maximize compatibility.

This is basically like inverted (Sky) MoDo with white legends.

Would be cool if you could have a kit with the same drilled keys as GMK Tex Yoda

Show Image


I should think the people who bought TEX yoda and shinobi would be interested, though not sure how many there are
Got the same idea, so +1

No promises, but we can look into this...
Got a Tex Yoda II & a Shinobi in the mail.

For the Shinobi, GMK keys would be amazing, but I think the main challenge is the 0.75u keys at the top.

For both, I wonder if it would make more sense to have a 3D-printable jig that can hold the center keys in place for DIY drilling. On the other hand, AFAIK those special Tex Yoda sets from GMK came with the keys drilled, so they are presumably capable of doing it again.

Shinobi is not possible.

As for the Yoda, if we can get our hands on the machined G H B keys, then adding the spaces should be a no brainer.

I assume 2 x 1.25u and 1 x 1u convex is preferred for the thumb buttons?
1.25u R4 convex wasn't available when that GMK Tex Yoda keyset premiered. Not sure, but could be the same case for 1u R4C too. Now that both are available, it seems to me they'd be the preferred combo.

Opened up a Shinobi box today. Yeah, it's definitely not going to work.
  • There are 0.75u keys used for the F-row and above, as well as for the arrow cluster below.
  • It also uses a very rare 4.5u size spacebar.
  • The G, H, and B keys are quite different from the ones produced for the Yoda - more material is removed from the bottoms and top.
  • The bottom mouse keys are also all 1.25u instead of the 1.25u+1u+1.25u arrangement found on the Yoda.
Too bad! GMK ABS double-shot keycaps would be a nice improvement over the Shinobi's stock Laser-foamed/ablated ones.

Thanks for the info!

Offline andr01d

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #121 on: Fri, 15 May 2020, 16:47:04 »
Imagine a set of these that fit a Model M13

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=102826.0

While this is a nice keyboard, its not exactly what I meant. The M13 has a trackpoint. I currently use a Unicomp with the trackpoint, and would love an IBM themed keyset to fit the buckling spring switches. Even if I had to dremmel a couple of the keycaps to fit the trackpoint.

Offline hineybush

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #122 on: Fri, 15 May 2020, 17:08:09 »
yooooo this is sick thanks

pls add Alt Gr to the RGB mods

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #123 on: Sat, 16 May 2020, 18:40:10 »
I put up a project page and poll on Drop:


Even though this is run independently, we'll need it for exposure. Especially if we want all these kits to be made.

yooooo this is sick thanks

pls add Alt Gr to the RGB mods

Hey hiney. You're an Alt Gr fan, aren't you...


Offline hineybush

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #124 on: Sat, 16 May 2020, 18:44:01 »
I put up a project page and poll on Drop:


Even though this is run independently, we'll need it for exposure. Especially if we want all these kits to be made.

yooooo this is sick thanks

pls add Alt Gr to the RGB mods

Hey hiney. You're an Alt Gr fan, aren't you...
i'm


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Offline ideus

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #125 on: Sun, 17 May 2020, 17:26:07 »
I have posted on this previously and do not want to be repetitive, so this is the second and last time that I will bother you with this: You have to take care of preventing the irregular legends for icon modifiers to be produced. In particular, the long arrow in the enter key. GMK has stated that those legends being irregular is just normal, which is not the case with OG Cherry keys.

No problem. I think I replied to your comment. I am not really aware of the issue, do you have any pictures of the irregular Enter keys so I can better explain it to GMK?


My bad: I did not catch your replay on the first post. There is an entire thread about the issues with icon legends in a recent GB for Icon Mods:


https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=101664.0




I copied here some examples of the pictures that show some of the issues. I hope that helps. The most concerning part of the problem is that GMK's did not acknowledge those issues as something that need to be fixed.










Online Hawksmoor

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #126 on: Sun, 17 May 2020, 19:15:54 »
I think the best compromise for a set is to go for the "English (US), terminal style" keys added to the base kit (1.25U left Shift, R4 <>, R3 \| and (at least) one vertical Enter key); this allows proper and complete support for one national layout (English (US), over an ISO, ANSI or ANSISO keyboard) and avoids the "backslash-pipe duplication" some people dislike.



I agree. I wrote more about this issue here. I see voodoo seems to be fond of surveys; it includes an interpretation of data from an actual survey! ;)

Those numbers in your post don't add up. In the Imgur link there is only 293 ISO users.  Yet somehow your numbers state "244 out of 503 surveyed ISO  ...etc etc"
Even taking your numbers at face value.
Majority, if not all ISO layouts you've stated does not use an R3 |\ .Yet, it is taking a key away from the UK ISO users which is " 173 out of 503 surveyed ISO users, or 34%." - your figures



« Last Edit: Mon, 18 May 2020, 00:09:14 by Hawksmoor »

Offline PlastikSchnittstelle

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #127 on: Mon, 18 May 2020, 05:51:31 »
VERY NICE!
This GB will definately hit MOQ!
Would you PLEASE add R5 and R0 to this GB?

Offline Pylon

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #128 on: Mon, 18 May 2020, 10:40:59 »
R0/R5 hurts compatibility unless you add more keys...

Offline konstantin

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #129 on: Mon, 18 May 2020, 13:51:20 »
Those numbers in your post don't add up. In the Imgur link there is only 293 ISO users.  Yet somehow your numbers state "244 out of 503 surveyed ISO  ...etc etc"
Even taking your numbers at face value.
Majority, if not all ISO layouts you've stated does not use an R3 |\ .Yet, it is taking a key away from the UK ISO users which is " 173 out of 503 surveyed ISO users, or 34%." - your figures

Thanks for checking the data yourself and taking the critical approach here — I appreciate it.

At the time of writing that post, the data I had to go off were the respondents' country numbers from the survey. Despite the fact that the total ended up being higher than the number of self-reported ISO users, I decided that this would be good enough, since it's not the exact numbers that matter, but rather the relative distribution between the different countries / national layouts. This is why at first I was reluctant to cite the precise numbers in the post and not just the percentages, but I decided to do so anyway exactly because I wanted others to be able to check my calculations.

In the meantime, I've tried to do my due diligence by reaching out to the author of the 2020 Megasurvey, /u/blockedbyte, to obtain the raw results of the survey. I wanted to do this so I could conduct a more precise analysis by taking into account just the countries/layouts of self-reported ISO users (the 293 you mentioned). However, I've yet to receive a response, and the other person who was involved in the survey, /u/dont_settle, said that they've also been unable to reach the author and get the raw data.

So I'm afraid that the best data we currently have is the country distribution, which is what I used in the post. I believe it to be representative nonetheless since, again, it's the ratios that matter. If I do get the more detailed data from the survey, I'll be sure to update my post accordingly. For the time being, I've edited out the potentially confusing wording about user numbers (thanks for pointing that out).

Majority, if not all ISO layouts you've stated does not use an R3 |\ .
If you check the layouts I mentioned in the first footnote in that post again, all of them do in fact use either a R3 \| key or a R4 <> key. This is in line with what I said about them being partially supported, so my original statement is not incorrect.
« Last Edit: Mon, 18 May 2020, 14:01:02 by konstantin »
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Online Hawksmoor

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #130 on: Mon, 18 May 2020, 16:35:21 »
Those numbers in your post don't add up. In the Imgur link there is only 293 ISO users.  Yet somehow your numbers state "244 out of 503 surveyed ISO  ...etc etc"
Even taking your numbers at face value.
Majority, if not all ISO layouts you've stated does not use an R3 |\ .Yet, it is taking a key away from the UK ISO users which is " 173 out of 503 surveyed ISO users, or 34%." - your figures

Thanks for checking the data yourself and taking the critical approach here — I appreciate it.

At the time of writing that post, the data I had to go off were the respondents' country numbers from the survey. Despite the fact that the total ended up being higher than the number of self-reported ISO users, I decided that this would be good enough, since it's not the exact numbers that matter, but rather the relative distribution between the different countries / national layouts. This is why at first I was reluctant to cite the precise numbers in the post and not just the percentages, but I decided to do so anyway exactly because I wanted others to be able to check my calculations.

In the meantime, I've tried to do my due diligence by reaching out to the author of the 2020 Megasurvey, /u/blockedbyte, to obtain the raw results of the survey. I wanted to do this so I could conduct a more precise analysis by taking into account just the countries/layouts of self-reported ISO users (the 293 you mentioned). However, I've yet to receive a response, and the other person who was involved in the survey, /u/dont_settle, said that they've also been unable to reach the author and get the raw data.

So I'm afraid that the best data we currently have is the country distribution, which is what I used in the post. I believe it to be representative nonetheless since, again, it's the ratios that matter. If I do get the more detailed data from the survey, I'll be sure to update my post accordingly. For the time being, I've edited out the potentially confusing wording about user numbers (thanks for pointing that out).

Majority, if not all ISO layouts you've stated does not use an R3 |\ .
If you check the layouts I mentioned in the first footnote in that post again, all of them do in fact use either a R3 \| key or a R4 <> key. This is in line with what I said about them being partially supported, so my original statement is not incorrect.

I took issue with the misrepresentation of the figures and stating them as facts. There weren't even 503 self identified ISO users.
Of the 293 self-identified users, for all is known in the data, 100% of them could be UK/ISO or 100% of them could be FR AZERTY users.

I also take issue with you (and DeplotedVespene) instead of proposing options to give ALL ISO some compatibility in this thread and others, (E.g. requesting an extra key or side printing like old kits like GMK Muted or having R3 ~# and R4 <> (where 83% of users will have partial compatibility - your numbers (49% + 34%)). you propose to take away compatibility from others

Really liked this kit but will not be getting it if the only option is an R3 |\.
Also going to drop this now, as this is not an ISO discussion thread and any more would be disrespectful to the Designer


Offline depletedvespene

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #131 on: Mon, 18 May 2020, 17:26:09 »

I also take issue with you (and DeplotedVespene) instead of proposing options to give ALL ISO some compatibility in this thread and others, (E.g. requesting an extra key or side printing like old kits like GMK Muted or having R3 ~# and R4 <> (where 83% of users will have partial compatibility - your numbers (49% + 34%)). you propose to take away compatibility from others

The problem is that "some" compatibility is actually worse. If the full set of alphas of a given keycap set is made to support the English (US) national layout, but there is one or two keys that are meant for a different national layout (say, English (UK) or German), it looks wrong and IS wrong.

There is no escaping the fact that (almost) all the custom keycap set start off with support for English (US), and perhaps a delta for (partial or complete) English (UK) support. Therefore, English (US) has to be fully supported first, or else you wind up with absurd situations where the 0xBF key is present for R2 and R1 as \| but as #~ for R3 on a keyboard that otherwise has no English (UK) presence at all. THEN, you can worry about other national layouts.

In an ideal world, we would buy sets choosing a subset of alpha-less modifiers plus a subset of mod-less alphas, and choose the latter from a list of language kits (instead of buying a English (US) alpha subset + a delta subset, as is done today), but we're not there yet, and the current state of affairs forces first to get one national layout (English (US)) right first, then worry about others through kits like, say, NordeUK or BRESLAPTIT. I hope we'll eventually get to the better position of having ten or twelve of the most common national languages offered independently of each other, and keep the few remaining ones on delta kits.


Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #132 on: Mon, 18 May 2020, 19:08:14 »
A deskmat with Thinkpad nubbies arranged in rows would be pretty sweet.

Offline Damage

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #133 on: Mon, 18 May 2020, 23:06:20 »
I would very much like to see an R0 Esc key in the accent kit. That is all.  :D

Offline shawkes

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #134 on: Tue, 19 May 2020, 11:57:33 »
Adding a vote for cut out G/H/B caps... even if it has to be a separate kit; that might make the most sense. Obviously, Kodachi and Shinobi support would be unreasonable, but my Yoda could sure use a fresh look.

Great looking set with great renders.

Offline IBMweMissU

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #135 on: Wed, 20 May 2020, 03:36:48 »
Instant buy

Offline ideus

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #136 on: Wed, 20 May 2020, 09:00:56 »
What is the reasoning that supports having the UK kit joined with the Icon Mods set?

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #137 on: Wed, 20 May 2020, 11:12:05 »
What is the reasoning that supports having the UK kit joined with the Icon Mods set?

The main reasons are:
  • Going with icon only follows the almost universal convention that ISO keyboards use icon mods
  • The icon mod kit would have to have the ISO Enters and 1.25u Shift anyway
  • Alt Gr keys would be omitted from the base set

Recent stats (see dvorcol's posts) show that ISO/international kits sell at around 5% of total base sets.

Do you think it is preferable to impose ISO on all buyers, or to impose icon mods on all ISO users?

Offline konstantin

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #138 on: Wed, 20 May 2020, 17:52:09 »
The main reasons are:
  • Going with icon only follows the almost universal convention that ISO keyboards use icon mods
  • The icon mod kit would have to have the ISO Enters and 1.25u Shift anyway
  • Alt Gr keys would be omitted from the base set

Recent stats (see dvorcol's posts) show that ISO/international kits sell at around 5% of total base sets.

Do you think it is preferable to impose ISO on all buyers, or to impose icon mods on all ISO users?

As I said before, international kit sales are not indicative of the number of ISO users, by any stretch:
Namely, most ISO users are happy with basic support and don't want to spend a lot of money to buy an intl compatibility kit. This is why you always see these kits sell poorly. Rest assured that there are many more ISO users than sales of these kits would suggest.
I may be wrong, but I think Dvorcol's posts only cover international kit sales.

Besides, you said yourself that you aren't happy with the current placement of the ISO keys. I hope you'll be able to find a better solution for them by the time this goes into GB.
« Last Edit: Wed, 20 May 2020, 18:38:43 by konstantin »
thank you for coming to my ted talk


Offline psxndc

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[IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #139 on: Wed, 20 May 2020, 19:18:37 »
I copied here some examples of the pictures that show some of the issues. I hope that helps. The most concerning part of the problem is that GMK's did not acknowledge those issues as something that need to be fixed.
Sorry to be a dumbass, but what's the issue in these photos? The keys in each look the same to me.
« Last Edit: Wed, 20 May 2020, 19:20:13 by psxndc »

Offline Tom_Kazansky

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #140 on: Wed, 20 May 2020, 23:03:22 »
I copied here some examples of the pictures that show some of the issues. I hope that helps. The most concerning part of the problem is that GMK's did not acknowledge those issues as something that need to be fixed.
Sorry to be a dumbass, but what's the issue in these photos? The keys in each look the same to me.

look closely at the pic of the enter keys, the symbol in enter key below is deformed
243127-0
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" - Arthur C. Clarke


Offline psxndc

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #141 on: Wed, 20 May 2020, 23:19:53 »
Got it. Thanks for pointing it out. I guess getting old and having worsening eyesight has its benefits.

Offline dallman5

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #142 on: Thu, 21 May 2020, 00:42:15 »
This might be a long shot, but is there any chance R5 could be added to the RGB mods to make it compatible with LightningXI’s upcoming R5 Dolch?

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=106504.0
Current collection:
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HHKB Pro 1 (KB300BN) | Realforce 86U (White) | Realforce R2 PFU Edition (Ivory) | Realforce 87U (Blank Black) | Leopold FC660C (Blank Black)

GSKT-00 (Silver, Poker) | TGR x Singa Unikorn (Purple) | TGR 910 SE (Pink on Blue) | TGR 910 RE (Polycarbonate) | OTD Koala (Silver, WKL) | TGR Jane v2 (Blue-grey, WKL) | LZ-MP (Shine Grey, WKL) | TGR Alice (Grey on Pink) | TGR Tris (Blue) | Lynn Montage (Light Blue, WKL) | LZ-GH v1 (Black, WKL) | Duck Viper v3 (Grey on Black) | GSKT-00 R2 (Grey, HHKB)

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Offline AaronR

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #143 on: Thu, 21 May 2020, 01:29:02 »
f13 key please.

Offline hineybush

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #144 on: Thu, 21 May 2020, 01:38:52 »
This might be a long shot, but is there any chance R5 could be added to the RGB mods to make it compatible with LightningXI’s upcoming R5 Dolch?

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=106504.0

my recent RGBYK set had R5 as well:


i love r5 baby

Offline konstantin

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #145 on: Thu, 21 May 2020, 03:43:06 »
Those numbers in your post don't add up. In the Imgur link there is only 293 ISO users.  Yet somehow your numbers state "244 out of 503 surveyed ISO  ...etc etc"
Even taking your numbers at face value.
Majority, if not all ISO layouts you've stated does not use an R3 |\ .Yet, it is taking a key away from the UK ISO users which is " 173 out of 503 surveyed ISO users, or 34%." - your figures

Thanks for checking the data yourself and taking the critical approach here — I appreciate it.

At the time of writing that post, the data I had to go off were the respondents' country numbers from the survey. Despite the fact that the total ended up being higher than the number of self-reported ISO users, I decided that this would be good enough, since it's not the exact numbers that matter, but rather the relative distribution between the different countries / national layouts. This is why at first I was reluctant to cite the precise numbers in the post and not just the percentages, but I decided to do so anyway exactly because I wanted others to be able to check my calculations.

In the meantime, I've tried to do my due diligence by reaching out to the author of the 2020 Megasurvey, /u/blockedbyte, to obtain the raw results of the survey. I wanted to do this so I could conduct a more precise analysis by taking into account just the countries/layouts of self-reported ISO users (the 293 you mentioned). However, I've yet to receive a response, and the other person who was involved in the survey, /u/dont_settle, said that they've also been unable to reach the author and get the raw data.

So I'm afraid that the best data we currently have is the country distribution, which is what I used in the post. I believe it to be representative nonetheless since, again, it's the ratios that matter. If I do get the more detailed data from the survey, I'll be sure to update my post accordingly. For the time being, I've edited out the potentially confusing wording about user numbers (thanks for pointing that out).

Majority, if not all ISO layouts you've stated does not use an R3 |\ .
If you check the layouts I mentioned in the first footnote in that post again, all of them do in fact use either a R3 \| key or a R4 <> key. This is in line with what I said about them being partially supported, so my original statement is not incorrect.

I took issue with the misrepresentation of the figures and stating them as facts. There weren't even 503 self identified ISO users.
Of the 293 self-identified users, for all is known in the data, 100% of them could be UK/ISO or 100% of them could be FR AZERTY users.

I also take issue with you (and DeplotedVespene) instead of proposing options to give ALL ISO some compatibility in this thread and others, (E.g. requesting an extra key or side printing like old kits like GMK Muted or having R3 ~# and R4 <> (where 83% of users will have partial compatibility - your numbers (49% + 34%)). you propose to take away compatibility from others

Really liked this kit but will not be getting it if the only option is an R3 |\.
Also going to drop this now, as this is not an ISO discussion thread and any more would be disrespectful to the Designer

I apologize for diverting the thread again, but I felt that it would be worthwhile to close out this discussion on a meaningful note.

You'll be happy to hear that I've managed to obtained the raw data from the r/MK Megasurvey 2020 (thanks to the authors, u/blockedbyte and u/Stopped_Lurker). You can find the relevant figures, as well as a detailed analysis of the ISO user distribution, at the following link. I invite you to check the data for correctness.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vyY5EjTfzo6YXp_xwQYN_ffcoB0fXdNl8nc0WDteobs/edit?usp=sharing

As you can see, the data corroborates all of my original statements and assumptions from the post. Not only that, but the number of actual, self-identified ISO users covered by R3 \|, R4 <> is even higher than was at first apparent: 56% (70% with US ISO) instead of 49%. Meanwhile, the number of ISO users covered by R3 #~, R4 \| actually went down from 34% to 19.5%.

On another note, I was surprised to see how many US ISO users there actually are out in the wild. It's a lot more than I thought. In fact, they're pretty much as common as German and UK users.

« Last Edit: Thu, 21 May 2020, 05:40:19 by konstantin »
thank you for coming to my ted talk


Offline guzzi

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #146 on: Thu, 21 May 2020, 04:00:29 »
I copied here some examples of the pictures that show some of the issues. I hope that helps. The most concerning part of the problem is that GMK's did not acknowledge those issues as something that need to be fixed.
Sorry to be a dumbass, but what's the issue in these photos? The keys in each look the same to me.

look closely at the pic of the enter keys, the symbol in enter key below is deformed
(Attachment Link)

GMK seems to have fixed issues regarding the icon mods. I got my GMK Missing Keys yesterday and the legends are fine again. Other people in the thread are happy as well

I have received information that GMK has shipped out the set and it has arrived at our European vendor. The set is looking good and does not seem to have the issues that GMK WOB/BOW icond mods had for example.
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #147 on: Thu, 21 May 2020, 08:39:00 »
This might be a long shot, but is there any chance R5 could be added to the RGB mods to make it compatible with LightningXI’s upcoming R5 Dolch?

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=106504.0

It's something to consider, although... while the kit is designed for many sets, I don't want to deter buyers from this GB with a pricey add-on.

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #148 on: Thu, 21 May 2020, 09:02:11 »
Those numbers in your post don't add up. In the Imgur link there is only 293 ISO users.  Yet somehow your numbers state "244 out of 503 surveyed ISO  ...etc etc"
Even taking your numbers at face value.
Majority, if not all ISO layouts you've stated does not use an R3 |\ .Yet, it is taking a key away from the UK ISO users which is " 173 out of 503 surveyed ISO users, or 34%." - your figures

Thanks for checking the data yourself and taking the critical approach here — I appreciate it.

At the time of writing that post, the data I had to go off were the respondents' country numbers from the survey. Despite the fact that the total ended up being higher than the number of self-reported ISO users, I decided that this would be good enough, since it's not the exact numbers that matter, but rather the relative distribution between the different countries / national layouts. This is why at first I was reluctant to cite the precise numbers in the post and not just the percentages, but I decided to do so anyway exactly because I wanted others to be able to check my calculations.

In the meantime, I've tried to do my due diligence by reaching out to the author of the 2020 Megasurvey, /u/blockedbyte, to obtain the raw results of the survey. I wanted to do this so I could conduct a more precise analysis by taking into account just the countries/layouts of self-reported ISO users (the 293 you mentioned). However, I've yet to receive a response, and the other person who was involved in the survey, /u/dont_settle, said that they've also been unable to reach the author and get the raw data.

So I'm afraid that the best data we currently have is the country distribution, which is what I used in the post. I believe it to be representative nonetheless since, again, it's the ratios that matter. If I do get the more detailed data from the survey, I'll be sure to update my post accordingly. For the time being, I've edited out the potentially confusing wording about user numbers (thanks for pointing that out).

Majority, if not all ISO layouts you've stated does not use an R3 |\ .
If you check the layouts I mentioned in the first footnote in that post again, all of them do in fact use either a R3 \| key or a R4 <> key. This is in line with what I said about them being partially supported, so my original statement is not incorrect.

I took issue with the misrepresentation of the figures and stating them as facts. There weren't even 503 self identified ISO users.
Of the 293 self-identified users, for all is known in the data, 100% of them could be UK/ISO or 100% of them could be FR AZERTY users.

I also take issue with you (and DeplotedVespene) instead of proposing options to give ALL ISO some compatibility in this thread and others, (E.g. requesting an extra key or side printing like old kits like GMK Muted or having R3 ~# and R4 <> (where 83% of users will have partial compatibility - your numbers (49% + 34%)). you propose to take away compatibility from others

Really liked this kit but will not be getting it if the only option is an R3 |\.
Also going to drop this now, as this is not an ISO discussion thread and any more would be disrespectful to the Designer

I apologize for diverting the thread again, but I felt that it would be worthwhile to close out this discussion on a meaningful note.

You'll be happy to hear that I've managed to obtained the raw data from the r/MK Megasurvey 2020 (thanks to the authors, u/blockedbyte and u/Stopped_Lurker). You can find the relevant figures, as well as a detailed analysis of the ISO user distribution, at the following link. I invite you to check the data for correctness.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vyY5EjTfzo6YXp_xwQYN_ffcoB0fXdNl8nc0WDteobs/edit?usp=sharing

As you can see, the data corroborates all of my original statements and assumptions from the post. Not only that, but the number of actual, self-identified ISO users covered by R3 \|, R4 <> is even higher than was at first apparent: 56% (70% with US ISO) instead of 49%. Meanwhile, the number of ISO users covered by R3 #~, R4 \| actually went down from 34% to 19.5%.

On another note, I was surprised to see how many US ISO users there actually are out in the wild. It's a lot more than I thought. In fact, they're pretty much as common as German and UK users.

Show Image


First, thank you for the info.

The main issue with how you presented the data is that a user's location does not indicate which layout they use.

For example, ISO users in Canada do not necessarily use a "Canadian" layout (they could be living abroad). Same goes for the US, obviously.


What I gather from this survey is that most ISO users (outside the US) are located in the UK, Germany, Sweden, the rest of the Scandinavian countries, and so on.

Besides, I rather go by recent group buy statistics than user location or layout. Because it's how many kits you think you will sell that dictates MOQ, not demographics directly.
« Last Edit: Thu, 21 May 2020, 10:59:11 by voodoo6k »

Offline ideus

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #149 on: Thu, 21 May 2020, 09:09:31 »
I copied here some examples of the pictures that show some of the issues. I hope that helps. The most concerning part of the problem is that GMK's did not acknowledge those issues as something that need to be fixed.
Sorry to be a dumbass, but what's the issue in these photos? The keys in each look the same to me.

look closely at the pic of the enter keys, the symbol in enter key below is deformed
(Attachment Link)

GMK seems to have fixed issues regarding the icon mods. I got my GMK Missing Keys yesterday and the legends are fine again. Other people in the thread are happy as well

I have received information that GMK has shipped out the set and it has arrived at our European vendor. The set is looking good and does not seem to have the issues that GMK WOB/BOW icond mods had for example.
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)




Right molds make good caps.