Author Topic: KAT Extended APL - ON HOLD  (Read 6236 times)

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Offline Fredington

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KAT Extended APL - ON HOLD
« on: Sun, 21 June 2020, 22:52:25 »
Hi all,

I've decided to place development of this set on hold for the time being. There seems to be a lack of interest at the moment for more APL sets, and I find myself more excited about doing something with the italic Latin font I developed for this. Thank you to everyone who has expressed interest so far in this. Extended APL will return at a later date, possibly with text mods and COLOR.

-Fredington

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Hi everyone! I'd like to check interest for a set celebrating APL's earliest history with keyboard integration, KAT Extended APL. The primary inspiration behind the set is the IBM 2741 terminal, with the IBM 5100, IBM 3722, and Tektronic 4014 helping to fill in some of the necessary keys for modern keyboards:



Colors

We will be matching to stock SP colors:



If you are interested, please fill out the IC Form, and if you'd like, you can follow me on IG @Fredington.

*NOTE: Regarding the current QC issues with KAT, I don't intend to run this until they have been confirmed to be resolved with satisfactory delivery of a reverse dyesub set, whenever that may be.

Core Kits















International Kits

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*NOTE: Due to the wrong punctuation legend placement in relation to modern keyboards and the complex nature of dual legends in general, correct punctuation has been omitted from the below kits. I did however, make it a priority to include the letters of the various alphabets, so you'll at least have those. I also included replacements for the $ key as it just felt weird to me to potentially have that on a European layout without or .







Alternate Layout Kits

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Extra Kits

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Renders by Oblotzky

Modern M0110



TGR 910





Keycult No. 2





If you'd like to support this project, please use the banner below:

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[url=https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=107075.0][img]https://i.imgur.com/atWtAAH.jpg[/img][/url]
« Last Edit: Sun, 05 July 2020, 19:45:51 by Fredington »

Offline Fredington

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Re: KAT Extended APL
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 21 June 2020, 22:52:51 »
6.25.20

- Removed Latin Alphas and their derivatives from the set

6.23.20

- Moved 6.25u and 7u spacebars from Spacebars kit to APL/Latin Aphas
- Added new Typewriter Blanks kit for 60% boards to emulate that vintage typewriter look, compatible with both ANSI and ISO layouts
- Added spacebars back into 40s kit

6.22.20

- Moved 6.25u and 7u spacebars from Modifiers to Spacebars
- Added (German) and , , , and (Italian) to the International kit
- Removed R2 {} from UK ISO kit
- Removed spacebars from 40s kit
« Last Edit: Thu, 25 June 2020, 14:59:10 by Fredington »

Offline Agilr

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Re: KAT Extended APL
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 21 June 2020, 22:59:57 »
Nice.

Offline pears

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Re: KAT Extended APL
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 21 June 2020, 23:05:35 »
Cool

Offline pixelpusher

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Re: KAT Extended APL
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 21 June 2020, 23:21:12 »
I like the idea a lot.  Anything retro is a go for me.  I did notice that the original dual legends have the secondary symbols in a slightly thinner font than the primary alphas.  Have you thought about trying to achieve the same look?

Offline valniro

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Re: KAT Extended APL
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 22 June 2020, 01:12:09 »
I like the idea. Just a note for the South kit, it is missing all the accented vowels of the italian layout which are primary legends on the keys. In detail I'm referring to "", "", "", "" and "".
Keep up with the good work!

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Offline equalunique

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Re: KAT Extended APL
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 22 June 2020, 02:09:44 »
>APL
>dvorak
>ergo

Ok I'm buying at least two sets

Offline harlekein

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Re: KAT Extended APL
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 22 June 2020, 03:18:50 »
I love the idea and inspiration and I love the Colemak offerings, but just grey doesn't do it for me.

Offline konstantin

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Re: KAT Extended APL
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 22 June 2020, 03:40:43 »
Interested. In keeping with the electric typewriter tradition, would you consider adding blank Shift keys as an option? I think the set could look elegant with blank Shifts, which would complement the otherwise busy nature of the keycaps nicely.
« Last Edit: Mon, 22 June 2020, 07:49:39 by konstantin »

Offline Howgii

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Re: KAT Extended APL
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 22 June 2020, 05:36:18 »
Great set as always. I would absolutely join the GB

Offline KingOfMemes

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Re: KAT Extended APL
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 22 June 2020, 09:46:51 »
I'm in

Online Rob27shred

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Re: KAT Extended APL
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 22 June 2020, 11:12:26 »
Oof, awesome looking set! Although I won't go in on any KAT sets till Keyrative prove they can push out a set with minimal QC issues.

Offline Fredington

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Re: KAT Extended APL
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 22 June 2020, 11:37:52 »
I like the idea a lot.  Anything retro is a go for me.  I did notice that the original dual legends have the secondary symbols in a slightly thinner font than the primary alphas.  Have you thought about trying to achieve the same look?

If you look closely at the renders, they actually are thinner than the bottom letters, just not by as much as the inspiration. I kind of prefer the slightly thicker look, but I suppose I could be convinced the otherwise.

I like the idea. Just a note for the South kit, it is missing all the accented vowels of the italian layout which are primary legends on the keys. In detail I'm referring to "", "", "", "" and "".
Keep up with the good work!

These will be added but they'll probably be capital letters.

Interested. In keeping with the electric typewriter tradition, would you consider adding blank Shift keys as an option? I think the set could look elegant with blank Shifts, which would complement the otherwise busy nature of the keycaps nicely.

I'm not sure I like how that looks. I think the keys below SHIFT would need to be blank as well:







Oof, awesome looking set! Although I won't go in on any KAT sets till Keyrative prove they can push out a set with minimal QC issues.

Yes, I will wait until those are resolved, as stated in the OP.

Offline Madrai

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Re: KAT Extended APL
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 22 June 2020, 11:46:58 »
Think the set looks pretty nice. Keeping up with this for sure.

Online Rob27shred

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Re: KAT Extended APL
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 22 June 2020, 11:59:18 »
Oof, awesome looking set! Although I won't go in on any KAT sets till Keyrative prove they can push out a set with minimal QC issues.

Yes, I will wait until those are resolved, as stated in the OP.

Color me interested then! I'm gonna be honest, I did only skim over the OP because of the issues KAT sets have been having. Although if you're planning on waiting to run this till they have the kinks worked out I would most likely be in for a set.

Offline ddrfraser1

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Re: KAT Extended APL
« Reply #15 on: Mon, 22 June 2020, 12:32:17 »
Damn. Im in. This will be my first KAT set.

Offline DrHigsby

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Re: KAT Extended APL
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 22 June 2020, 13:40:34 »
I really like this. I love the inspecific legends, the font choice, and the color.

Would you be open for including a 7u spacebar into the spacebars kit?

Offline jimboytacos

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Re: KAT Extended APL
« Reply #17 on: Mon, 22 June 2020, 13:47:42 »
I love the retro font on this. I'm in.

Offline konstantin

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Re: KAT Extended APL
« Reply #18 on: Mon, 22 June 2020, 15:04:17 »
Would you be open for including a 7u spacebar into the spacebars kit?

There's already a 7u spacebar in the mods kit.

Offline Fredington

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Re: KAT Extended APL
« Reply #19 on: Mon, 22 June 2020, 19:53:05 »
Just a few quick and dirty updates:

- Moved 6.25u and 7u spacebars from Modifiers to Spacebars
- Added (German) and , , , and (Italian) to the International kit
- Removed R2 {} from UK ISO kit

Offline konstantin

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Re: KAT Extended APL
« Reply #20 on: Mon, 22 June 2020, 20:04:15 »
- Moved 6.25u and 7u spacebars from Modifiers to Spacebars

Hmm wait, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you forcing all non-40%, non-ergo users to buy the spacebars kit now? That doesn't make much sense.

Usually a 6.25u space is included in the alphas, as it's the most common spacebar size and is used not only by ≥60% but also by 40% users. And then 7u is usually included in the mods kit, since it's the second most common size; and in the vast majority of cases, if you're using a 7u spacebar, you also need those mods. The spacebars kit is usually left for the oddball sizes. This is how most (all?) KAT ICs/GBs we've seen so far have been set up, more or less.

If this change is not, in fact, a mistake, I'd like to hear the reasoning behind it.

Offline Fredington

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Re: KAT Extended APL
« Reply #21 on: Mon, 22 June 2020, 20:13:30 »
- Moved 6.25u and 7u spacebars from Modifiers to Spacebars

Hmm wait, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you forcing all non-40%, non-ergo users to buy the spacebars kit now? That doesn't make much sense.

Usually a 6.25u space is included in the alphas, as it's the most common spacebar size and is used not only by ≥60% but also by 40% users. And then 7u is usually included in the mods kit, since it's the second most common size; and in the vast majority of cases, if you're using a 7u spacebar, you also need those mods. The spacebars kit is usually left for the oddball sizes. This is how most (all?) KAT ICs/GBs we've seen so far have been set up, more or less.

If this change is not, in fact, a mistake, I'd like to hear the reasoning behind it.

Well, I often find myself regretting not getting the spacebar kit. I figure that KAT kits are relatively affordable and the MOQ system friendly enough to try something like this. It's not set in stone either way. Your objection is noted.

Offline konstantin

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Re: KAT Extended APL
« Reply #22 on: Mon, 22 June 2020, 20:44:17 »
Well, I often find myself regretting not getting the spacebar kit. I figure that KAT kits are relatively affordable and the MOQ system friendly enough to try something like this. It's not set in stone either way. Your objection is noted.

Yeah, I see where you're coming from. I'd like to hear what other users think about this approach.

By the way, regarding those blank Shifts, I dig how they look on the 60% you rendered; on the TKL too, sort of; but I'm definitely not a fan of how they look on the 65% board with ISO keys. I think that sort of setup is best suited for 60% ANSI boards, since they're the most reminiscent of typewriter layouts. It'd be a nice option to have, but I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't make the cut. Anyway, thanks for taking the time to make those renders for my silly little idea, I appreciate it :thumb:

Offline Fredington

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Re: KAT Extended APL
« Reply #23 on: Tue, 23 June 2020, 09:05:12 »
Well, I often find myself regretting not getting the spacebar kit. I figure that KAT kits are relatively affordable and the MOQ system friendly enough to try something like this. It's not set in stone either way. Your objection is noted.

Yeah, I see where you're coming from. I'd like to hear what other users think about this approach.

By the way, regarding those blank Shifts, I dig how they look on the 60% you rendered; on the TKL too, sort of; but I'm definitely not a fan of how they look on the 65% board with ISO keys. I think that sort of setup is best suited for 60% ANSI boards, since they're the most reminiscent of typewriter layouts. It'd be a nice option to have, but I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't make the cut. Anyway, thanks for taking the time to make those renders for my silly little idea, I appreciate it :thumb:

After sleeping on it, I've decided to move the 6.25u and 7u spacebars into the APL/Latin Alphas. I also added a new Typewriter Blanks kit under the Extra Kits section. I think it was a nice idea that would work well for 60% boards as you said.

Offline Puddsy

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Re: KAT Extended APL - Small kit updates, new Typewriter Blanks kit
« Reply #24 on: Tue, 23 June 2020, 22:32:03 »
my one gripe is spacebars in alphas instead of mods, but otherwise excellent

also i would like a render with full latin alphas please thank you
« Last Edit: Tue, 23 June 2020, 22:35:20 by Puddsy »
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Offline kajahtaa

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Re: KAT Extended APL - Small kit updates, new Typewriter Blanks kit
« Reply #25 on: Wed, 24 June 2020, 01:06:10 »
Love the cute little ortho kit. Will join.

Offline megabacon

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Re: KAT Extended APL - Small kit updates, new Typewriter Blanks kit
« Reply #26 on: Thu, 25 June 2020, 07:32:29 »
It would be nice to have a set that just has the APL symbols, and no latin characters.

Offline Fredington

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Re: KAT Extended APL - Small kit updates, new Typewriter Blanks kit
« Reply #27 on: Thu, 25 June 2020, 14:57:53 »
It would be nice to have a set that just has the APL symbols, and no latin characters.

Sorry, I am not a fan of how that looks.

i would like a render with full latin alphas please thank you

Yeah, about those...I've decided to remove the Latin Alphas and their derivatives from this set for a couple reasons:

1. I felt they looked weird with the APL-style punctation
2. I felt they detracted from the theme/focus of the set

I understand that a number of you were very interested in the Latin Alphas and their italic font. The current plan is to bring them back in a different form that will be better focused around them as the stars of the set rather than an afterthought. What I mean by this is that they will be accompanied by proper, modern punctuation and fully supported with all child kits you've come to expect from the KAT profile (i.e. UK ISO, North, South, AZERTY, and Colevrak with complete punctuation). Here is a tease of what it could look like, with Selectric-inspired icon mods and colorway:

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Offline eskimojo

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Re: KAT Extended APL - Small kit updates, new Typewriter Blanks kit
« Reply #28 on: Thu, 25 June 2020, 16:48:31 »
i would like a render with full latin alphas please thank you

Yeah, about those...I've decided to remove the Latin Alphas and their derivatives from this set for a couple reasons:

1. I felt they looked weird with the APL-style punctation
2. I felt they detracted from the theme/focus of the set

I understand that a number of you were very interested in the Latin Alphas and their italic font. The current plan is to bring them back in a different form that will be better focused around them as the stars of the set rather than an afterthought. What I mean by this is that they will be accompanied by proper, modern punctuation and fully supported with all child kits you've come to expect from the KAT profile (i.e. UK ISO, North, South, AZERTY, and Colevrak with complete punctuation). Here is a tease of what it could look like, with Selectric-inspired icon mods and colorway:

More
Show Image

Very interested in this ;)

Offline trashpanda

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likewise! that reddish color is beautiful, and red keys seem to be a rarity these days.

Offline T.C.

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I see that you have 1 configuration somewhere in the thread that shows the compound APL glyphs on the vertical faces of the keys (over struck '  andd quad for quote quad on a vertical face,  over jot with encode and decode to form execute and format "thorns" on the vertical face, etcetera) ... That's the kind of keycaps that I would want, and I might suggest that you go to dyalog.com to see all of the new compound glyphs that they have introduced into the APL interpreter (dyalog is one of two companies that are left actively developing APL interpreters)

Have Lexapro buckling APL keyboard, got it 10 years ago, the lettering started to fade after about eight or nine months. Would love to get keycaps for a modern keyboard. ... Hell, I'd love to get an original IBM APL keyboard with a thinkpad stick in the middle and a trackball off to the right

Offline Fredington

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I see that you have 1 configuration somewhere in the thread that shows the compound APL glyphs on the vertical faces of the keys (over struck '  andd quad for quote quad on a vertical face,  over jot with encode and decode to form execute and format "thorns" on the vertical face, etcetera) ... That's the kind of keycaps that I would want, and I might suggest that you go to dyalog.com to see all of the new compound glyphs that they have introduced into the APL interpreter (dyalog is one of two companies that are left actively developing APL interpreters)

Have Lexapro buckling APL keyboard, got it 10 years ago, the lettering started to fade after about eight or nine months. Would love to get keycaps for a modern keyboard. ... Hell, I'd love to get an original IBM APL keyboard with a thinkpad stick in the middle and a trackball off to the right

Can you draw that out lol? Also would be interested in seeing your Lexapro keyboard.

I also wanna see the Lexapro board

Fredington, the red kit in the teaser pic is amazing and I hope it comes through. APL is something different in my field but I'm glad to see this coming along

Offline vegs

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Offline ILikeShorts

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Re: KAT Extended APL - Small kit updates, new Typewriter Blanks kit
« Reply #34 on: Mon, 29 June 2020, 14:07:49 »
It would be nice to have a set that just has the APL symbols, and no latin characters.

Sorry, I am not a fan of how that looks.

i would like a render with full latin alphas please thank you

Yeah, about those...I've decided to remove the Latin Alphas and their derivatives from this set for a couple reasons:

1. I felt they looked weird with the APL-style punctation
2. I felt they detracted from the theme/focus of the set

I understand that a number of you were very interested in the Latin Alphas and their italic font. The current plan is to bring them back in a different form that will be better focused around them as the stars of the set rather than an afterthought. What I mean by this is that they will be accompanied by proper, modern punctuation and fully supported with all child kits you've come to expect from the KAT profile (i.e. UK ISO, North, South, AZERTY, and Colevrak with complete punctuation). Here is a tease of what it could look like, with Selectric-inspired icon mods and colorway:

More
Show Image

For the latin only set, would you consider doing them as mono legends? I feel like the numbers and punctuation would balance with the latin alphas better and give it a very distinct look.

Offline Fredington

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Re: KAT Extended APL - ON HOLD
« Reply #35 on: Sun, 05 July 2020, 19:50:24 »
Hi all,

I've decided to place development of this set on hold for the time being. There seems to be a lack of interest at the moment for more APL sets, and I find myself more excited about doing something with the italic Latin font I developed for this. Thank you to everyone who has expressed interest so far in this. Extended APL will return at a later date, possibly with text mods and COLOR.

-Fredington

Re: KAT Extended APL - ON HOLD
« Reply #36 on: Sun, 05 July 2020, 22:16:59 »
Ready for red devils, APL, and Latin font. You shoot your shot.

Offline kidpid

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Re: KAT Extended APL - ON HOLD
« Reply #37 on: Mon, 06 July 2020, 12:55:12 »
That's a shame. I definitely prefer the APL legends to the Latin legeds. Looking forward to this set's return!