What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?

[sealcouch]

So, I kind of accidentally purchased a Model M, 1392595. Is there some sort of simple mod I can perform to make this work on my PC? Or if not, any tips on selling it?

First post, btw. fantastic forum.

[dfj]

So, I kind of accidentally purchased a Model M, 1392595. Is there some sort of simple mod I can perform to make this work on my PC? Or if not, any tips on selling it?

First post, btw. fantastic forum.

 
  OK - that is a 102 key M, so in all likelyhood it supports Mode 2 just fine. Hence, all it needs is to be plugged into a computer.
  If it has that strange jack (it looks like an RJ45, but is bigger and has two clips on the sides rather than one on the  top) on the back of the keyboard, any Model M cable will suffice, but the jack is soldered to the controller so it will be a pain to swap if you don't have one.
  If the end of the connector is a normal RJ45, you can make an RJ45->PS2 cable converter assuming you can scrounge a female RJ45 port and a spare PS2 cable from some-place (e.g. old mice).

  On most IBM keyboard connectors for RJ45 the colours are, from left to right, looking at the connector with it pointing up, and the clip away from yourself:
empty
empty
black:    5V (yes 5V on black - it's not my fault)
red:       data
yellow:   clock
white:    ground
silver: (ground/shield)
empty

The colours on other PS2 cables are totally different for each one, so you will need to probe the pins and ends of the wire to figure out which goes where before wiring up the cable. Some sort of meter or even a continuity tester will suffice  for this.

fer yer edification: (from http://www.computer-engineering.org/ps2protocol/ )

Male
                                 
          (Plug)                                                                                                                                                  

Female
                                 
          (Socket)

6-pin Mini-DIN (PS/2):  
          1 - Data
          2 - Not Implemented
          3 - Ground
          4 - Vcc (+5V)
           5 - Clock
          6 - Not Implemented

[unicomp]

You could beat someone to death with it and then keep typing on it, just as long as your sort out the issue of typing on it in the first place. A rather inconspicuous murder weapon, as long as you don't leave any key prints on the victim.

[dfj]

Ah, not to worry, I've converted a few of the terminal 122 ones with a RJ45 - they were mode 3 like yours, except running on a different cable.
 This is a 102, and while poorly documented it is clearly using the IBM serial rather than parallel protocol since it _cannot_ be using the parallel one with only 5 wires.
  The exciting question is not whether it will work electrically, it is whether it will boot to Mode 3 or to mode 2.
  If it boots to mode 3, but supports mode 2, then one should check the board for a jumper in case it can be changed at that point, else it is as much fun to support as your (Kishy's) terminal boards, i.e. the driver patch will be needed.
 
  I expect that it boots to mode 2, however, and not even a jumper change will be needed. After a cable swap it will likely just work. If not, and you (sealcouch) don' want to do the driver stunt, then please don't get rid of it! someone here will surely want it as it is less than common.

Yup,
dfj

[sealcouch]

Wow, thanks for all of the help. I wonder why they don't just sell a converter for this kind of thing. Having little to no experience with electronics, I may just list it for sale on the site. I'd rather someone perform the mod and have an awesome working keyboard, than me screw it up completely. Also, I noticed the guy I bought it from sent it with a broken key stem on the Ctrl button, so I'm going to have to order that before I can even sell it. *sigh*

[sealcouch]

I live in Kentucky, about an hour away from the Unicomp place. Haha.

[sealcouch]

I would try the swap if I had an extra board lying around. I really don't have the money to spend on buying one either. I'm going to email Unicomp for the hell of it.

[sealcouch]

Yeah, there are no LEDs on it. I will post a picture in a bit.

[sealcouch]

note the missing keycap. =[


It seems as if it would be a perfect fit for a 1391401 board.

[sealcouch]

No worries though, I just ordered a replacement key cap.

[dfj]

Bummer that you're missing F8...I have F7 and F9 as spares, but no F8.

I think I have an F8 - all that is needed now is either an old PS2-cable from somewhere, a 7/32" or 5.5 mm long, narrow socket, and a bit of luck.

Just get the thing working and the keycap is yers, I just need to figure out a way to get it under 2 cm in an envelope to save $0.50 in extra postage.

yup,
dfj

[sealcouch]

I'm afraid it's a bit more complicated. I took the keyboard apart and the wiring is entirely different from the PS/2 or AT style keyboards. Also most schematics I've seen with the Ethernet style adapter have 6 wires on the end, this one only has 5.
 I'm really just considering swapping the boards entirely and then switching the keys.

[dfj]

Yes - it has 5 - I could swear I described the signals on them above, though. -.-

the cable likely connects to a little black 6-pin thingy stuck into the side of the board - with only four wires connected. The other (fifth) is the ground and will be conected to a sturdy wire to the frame in some fashion, typically.

is this the case?
dfj

[sealcouch]

Yes'sir.

[dfj]

Yes'sir.

then yer almost done, you did the hard part which is getting the bloody thing open.

At this point you will want a PS2 cable from something that you will need to be willing to cut the base off of so you can connect it in place of the little black connector.

looking at the side of the board, the pins look like so:

o o o
o o o

we can number them like this:
1 2 3
4 5 6

then 1 and two are unconnected, 3 will be 5v, 4 clock, 5 ground, and 6 data.

you can look at my earlier post in this thread to see if IBM used the same colours for your RJ45 connector as mine - if so, then you can confirm what the wires do a little that way.

I have lots of scrap connectors so I don't bother cutting the ends off of the IBM cables, but quite frankly, I don' much like the RJ45 boards I have, so I would be totally willing to cut the original cable if I ran out of connectors otherwise.

once you have a PS2 cable and want to test it on a computer, things will get more fun, though.

looking forward,
dfj

[sealcouch]

I'm going to give it a whirl tomorrow, but chances are it will probably end up for sale. Haha.

[sealcouch]

It's for sale now. I just couldn't bring myself to do it.
http://geekhack.org/classifieds.php?do=showad&adid=484&title=ibm-model-m-terminal-1392595

[bettablue]

I have heard that the terminal models are not compatible for PC use, so I found this article interesting.  I got my model M by asking a lot of people at work if they had one they were willing to part with.  I was finally given a new in box model M by a co-worker, but for some reason it didn't look right.  It was manufactured in Oct of 1994, but had a bunch of extra keys.  Yep, it was a terminal model.  I ended up trading it with another co-worker the next day for another model M that was not nearly as clean and obviously had been used hard and put away wet.  But this one was what I was looking for.  After a good cleaning, it looks like new.  There are no sctratches or chips anywhere.  And, I got a better deal too...  The model M I got in exchenge was manufatured on Feb 10, 1989 and has the extra long coiled cord with a PS2 connector.  It was missing 3 of the key caps, but a quick order from clickykeyboards.com and my board is just like new.  Even the coils in the cable are still wound tight and doesn't appear to have been stretched out at all.  You may be able to find someone who wants a terminal board.  All you have to do is ask.  Like me, you just might be surprised.

[dfj]

The terminal Ms are AT-compatible, just a different plug and a couple software-interpretation bugs.

Otherwise known as compatible.

  So, with a cable swap it will work in your bios and likely bootloader and even DOS - on a PC.
 However, the PS/2 drivers are bugged against terminal boards in both windows (all since '95, I believe) and linux, though we've nearly managed to get a patch into the stream which will support it next linux kernel cycle.
  Driver patches are being maintained by for both linux and 'dose, at present, though not for hackintoshes. As fer BSD, no clue.
  There are also two teensy (and++) implementations, for converting directly to USB, as well as (I think) a hoary kbdbabel converter to normal PS/2.
  Both teensy implementations are not-quite released as open-source yet, but can be had from the folks on the IRC channel #geekhack if you can stand it there. the kbdbabel implementation (if it exists) is hampered by the current CVS security problem on SourceForge, and the fact that it would use an 8051 which is often a one-shot, burn-wise. You want to buy a few, since if you flash them wrong then they are permanently flashed wrong. They are also tiny and old, and only programmable in assembly, so you won't have use for them for other projects if you get bored of the keyboard conversion.
 
  So, compatible, sort of... different amounts of work to get going, depending on how much fun you want to have. That said, a number of us use the terminal IBM boards (F and M) as our main keyboards after the conversion - they are truly awesome, with extra special sound and feel.

  Be sure to ask us more if you decide to reacquire the beast as a conversion project. We are always delighted to help corrupt new folks.

yupyup,
dfj

[bombcar]

I have that keyboard on a purple cube adapter on my Mac, and it works, but all those extra keys don't seem to do much.

I'd pay good money for a replacement controller that would unlock the power of those keys.

[ch_123]

USB adapters drop the extra scancodes.

[JohnElliott]

USB adapters drop the extra scancodes.

What's needed is a PS/2 to USB converter that lets you use a custom set of scancode mappings. I don't suppose anyone's aware of one?

[ch_123]

If you make your own PS/2 to USB adapter, you can get around that problem. Didn't someone around here make one recently?

[theferenc]

What's needed is a PS/2 to USB converter that lets you use a custom set of scancode mappings. I don't suppose anyone's aware of one?

Actually, I'm currently hacking hasu's teensy project to add those scan codes back in, for the keyboard in ripster's post.

So yes, we are aware of one, but it's a sort of DIY type converter. It's in the mods section, and I'll be posting back any code changes I make, so people should be able to take advantage of it, so long as they have a teensy or a teensy++.

[dfj]

Actually, I'm currently hacking hasu's teensy project to add those scan codes back in, for the keyboard in ripster's post.

So yes, we are aware of one, but it's a sort of DIY type converter. It's in the mods section, and I'll be posting back any code changes I make, so people should be able to take advantage of it, so long as they have a teensy or a teensy++.

Ah, I should take a look at hasu's mod, then. Soarer and myself have also written teensy(++) based converters (we also both supported nkro  over USB, though this  doesn't matter for an M).
  With the 122 conversion it is a little trickier for the ones like you and ripster have, as they sometimes generate a sequence of scancodes representing ctrl or shifted standard keys instead of a normal press-release.
  On the unicomp, at least, there was a jumper found that reverted the keyboard to one-key : one scancode press and release.
  I don't have that particular one that rip and yourself have, so I am not certain what is mapped to what combinations, nor what it defaults to, nor whether it switches mode.
  On the current unicomps, though, there is even an eeprom to control the layout, so replacing it with a new one is an option as well.
  But, because of these issues, and possibly extra bytes at the initialization of the keyboard, cheap mass-produced USB converters are likely to continue to struggle for a long time at supporting the older and odder AT-like hardware.

g'luck
dfj

[ch_123]

On a not entirely related note, one of the most unusual AT-style terminal keyboard screwups I've seen was when I plugged my AT Model F into my SGI Indy workstation. The Indy (and many other early PS/2 SGI boxes) used Scancode set 3 like IBM's terminal keyboards do. So, Ctrl on the AT Model F (located where Caps Lock is on a modern keyboard) became Caps Lock, and the Alt and Caps Lock buttons became Controls. I'm pretty sure the F keys didn't work - probably due to them assuming the scan codes of the special purpose keys on the IBM 104/122 key terminal boards.

[bithead9]

I've used that keyboard before (Model M 1397000).  IBM used them on PCs that had 3270 terminal emulation installed. Those keys could be used in ISPF when accessing mainframe applications.  As far as I know, they are useless for normal PC application software.  I am sure you could hack something to utilize them but its not standard...

[bithead9]

I just refurbed a ModelM Part# 42H1292 nice clicky keys.  Mfg. for IBM by Lexmark. 1996.  Converted it to USB with a PS/2 USB dongle.  I unsoldered the original wires and soldered on a nice long USB cable and used the original ps/2 header wire - wrapped it all in heat shrink tubing.  Works great and is recongnized even on Windows 7 now.  My next project is the Model M - 1392595 Mfg. March 1988.  Missing a couple keys caps.(SEND and RESET I think)

[hasu]

I got a 1392595 same as OP's. It is my first buckling spring.
I made RJ45-MiniDIN adapter as dfj described and hooked it up with Soarer's converter. As a result it works fine. Thanks, guys.

As you know this board speaks in Scan Code Set 3 not 2 so that no luck with commercial PS2-USB converter and BIOS I have.

[gnopgnip]

Would an rj45 to PS/2 adapter like that work for a 1395660?

[dfj]

Yup, totally - a 1395660 is what I worked on originally, way back.
1395660 -> (rj45 - ps/2 cable) -> (mode 3 - usb converter (soarer's works great) ) -> computer.

g'lucks.

[gnopgnip]

Would it work without a usb converter just plugging into a PS/2 port?

[dfj]

Not really.
On certain (but not all) old bios it used to be possible to edit text for the first little bit as long as you didn't hit any extended keys, but that era is long gone and even if your mainboard supports PS/2, it won't be happy. Regardless, it will freak out windows later on unless you hack the windows i8042 and keyboard driver.
  Dealing with the old windows code was a pita, I gave up and wrote a fresh firmware instead, the rarely seen 'dfj-verter' just for mode 3. Soarer also wrote a converter - but his was originally targeted at providing nkro for the IBM F - type XT, AT and other PS/2 keyboards that support it. Adding mode-3 support was straightforward for him (well, me also - mode 3 is much simpler than the default for PS/2 which is mode '2'.)
  Hence - replace the cable with a PS/2 cable, and hook to a soarer converter. This is the fun option. It also gets you a handy converter for other keyboards you might collect over the next bit.
  If you really don't want to do extra cabling until needed you can wire the converter straight to the pin-header inside the IBM board, and let the IBM have a USB cable instead.
  If you are fine soldering electronics, this will be very easy as the soarer converter uses a teensy 2.0. If not, order one with pins and it can be setup with jumpers and/or a solderless breadboard.

Sadly, many of the images associated with posts on this forum got trashed this spring - if you ask particular individuals in question about the images in particular important posts, they might know where they saved their backups... worth a try, at least.

more lucks ; }
dfj

[mich]

Would it work without a usb converter just plugging into a PS/2 port?

Kinda.
Linux can be patched to support it. There are patched drivers available for some versions of Windows. Neither works out of the box.
My ASUS M5A78L-M/USB3 mobo's bios works with it (but behaves as if the keyboard had the old PC AT layout), my MSI 760GM-E51 bios doesn't.

I use this keyboard on my main machine (with this ASUS mobo) running Linux and it works fine, with all 122 keys being available.

[gnopgnip]

With a teensy usb converter like soarer's is it possible to map the winkey to one of the other keys? Is it possible to make other macros? I heave learned a lot about how these older keyboards work reading through documentation.

[dfj]

Individual keys can be remapped using soarer's mod, though I'm not as clear how the macros work.
  I gave him a nudge so he can elucidate, and remind us where it is and how to use it. (we are often on irc).

[Soarer]

Anything can be remapped with my converter, and you can make other macros

Grab the v1.0 download from the project page, it has fairly full documentation of the config stuff, although it could do with me adding more examples!

[GoodAsh03]

  If the end of the connector is a normal RJ45, you can make an RJ45->PS2 cable converter assuming you can scrounge a female RJ45 port and a spare PS2 cable from some-place (e.g. old mice).

  On most IBM keyboard connectors for RJ45 the colours are, from left to right, looking at the connector with it pointing up, and the clip away from yourself:
empty
empty
black:    5V (yes 5V on black - it's not my fault)
red:       data
yellow:   clock
white:    ground
silver: (ground/shield)
empty

The colours on other PS2 cables are totally different for each one, so you will need to probe the pins and ends of the wire to figure out which goes where before wiring up the cable. Some sort of meter or even a continuity tester will suffice  for this.

Male
                     

Show Image

             
          (Plug)                                                                                                                                                   

Hi all. Total n00b here. I came across this thread via Google. I got an old IBM model M 1395665 keyboard from work. It has an RJ45 connector as dfj described above. I put together an RJ45 > PS/2 adapter using his description. When I hooked it up it kind of worked. The J key works perfectly! But when I press other keys I get some random stuff. For example, when I press 1 I get "1234" on the screen. I can post more output if it would help.

The keyboard's connector:

1. empty
2. empty
3. black
4. red
5. yellow
6. light grey
7. black
8. empty

My adapter:

I used a continuity tester to make sure I was connecting everything as dfj described it in his reply.

What do you think? Thanks a lot for any advice.

Jeremy

[Soarer]

Since it's terminal keyboard you'll need to plug it into something that can understand it (scan code set 3) - like a modified linux, or my converter.

[mich]

Scancode set 3 keyboard interpreted as scancode set 2 behaves like the original "non-extended" AT keyboard:
- alphanumeric block works normally with few exceptions: CapsLock is left CTRL, left CTRL is left ALT and right ALT is CapsLock
- numpad works normally, but: NumLock is ESC, Enter is +, + is -, / is NumLock
- the keys on the left are F1-F10
- keys which didn't exist in AT produce garbage

Also, there is no repetition nor break codes.

IMO it shouldn't turn "1" into "1234", but maybe it's Windows going crazy I'd try it on Linux or Soarer's adapter.

[dfj]

I agree : a USB converter is likely desired, and Soarer's works very well.

Just to share some random details, however:
I'm  not certain what you mean by no repetition or break codes - but set 3 has a slightly different config setup,
http://www.seasip.info/VintagePC/ibm_1390876.html goes into some decent detail.
The default at startup is for some keys to have started in make/break - namely the metas, and for most of the rest to have started in repeat mode.
Unlike a 1390141, it doesn't let keys be in both make-break and repeat, though. The good way to handle this is by setting f8 (all keys make/break) in your adapter (e.g. Soarer's will do this for you) and then when seen as a USB keyboard, the host OS will handle the repeat for you as normal.

also don't know what's up with the 1234 - :/

[Krogenar]

I'm going to give it a whirl tomorrow, but chances are it will probably end up for sale. Haha.

Once you get it working you might find it harder to part with -- just something about bringing it back to active life again that causes this!

[x2o]

Going to give Soarer's converter a whirl, I just aquired a Model M 1392595 (1988 iirc) from a friend who was going to throw it away  ()

My first terminal model M, should be interesting to see if I can get it working



update: Got the teensy2.0 in and all is working well

[SirReallySam]

Thanks for this, can see where the cables come of the RJ45 please can you help by telling me where each cable goes onto the PS/2 cable?

[fohat.digs]

Thanks for this, can see where the cables come of the RJ45 please can you help by telling me where each cable goes onto the PS/2 cable?

You need to intercept the signal and run it through the converter. My post #901 in Soarer's thread shows the adapter that I made.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=17458.0

[hasu]

Thanks for this, can see where the cables come of the RJ45 please can you help by telling me where each cable goes onto the PS/2 cable?

Hope this helps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PS/2_connector

[fohat.digs]

Oh, that. Here they all are in one place.

[lkong]

Sorry for bumping up the old thread. Im working on exact same keyboard and encountered some problem.
I have a 1392595 and teensy running hasu's firmware. all connections are good.
But it wont register any key.

I tried to use hid_listen, the keyboard keeps outputing code "wFF" non stop.

[fohat.digs]

2/3 of these problems are the result of mirror-image hookups.

The diagrams show the socket pins, not the cable that you are holding in your fingers.

[Snowdog993]

Try this:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=61878.msg1721863#msg1721863

And yes...  you can also do it to the 1392595, etc etc.... 
Just go to my gallery of pictures in my sig to see more transformations.