Author Topic: [IC] KAT Napoleonic | New Vendors: Ashkeebs & Fancy Customs! | GB 9 Nov 2020  (Read 14201 times)

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Offline NoPunIn10Did

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KAT Napoleonic
Inspired by early 19th century history.
Optimized for affordable language compatibility.


Home Page: https://katnapoleonic.com/kat-napoleonic/
Survey: https://forms.gle/REnoicL2PNNU1VJE6


Group Buy November 9th, 2020

Other Links
Updates
2020 Oct 08 - Updated vendor list.
More
2020 Sep 30 - Added the British Navy alternative TKL Mods kit along with renders.  Updated the French Indigo Ortho mods to use icons only. Updated vendor list.
2020 Sep 24 - Posted news regarding collabs: artisans, deskmats, mousepads, clothing, et cetera. Announced partnerships with Keeb Nerb and Divine Studios.

2020 Sep 15 - Added new and updated renders. Added three new alpha kits. Details available on Wordpress.

2020 Sep 08 - Added HEX Keyboards as new Southeast Asia vendor.  Multiple kit updates. Details available on Wordpress.
2020 Aug 24 - Official Launch of Geekhack IC



US English on KBD19X by KBDfans. Renders by Manzel.


Background

Tactician.
Tyrant.
Modernizer.
Murderer.


On the Ninth of November, 1799 (18 Brumaire in the Revolutionary calendar), a coup d’etat overthrew the French Directorate and replaced it with a new government: a Consulate to be led by General Napoleon Bonaparte. Just a few short years later, he would be crowned Emperor.

To say his rise to power ruffled a few feathers across Europe would be a gross understatement. While he is credited with bringing about positive reforms to the legal and governmental systems of France, his legacy is one tainted by costly, bloody wars across the continent.

Those early decades of the nineteenth century, from Napoleon’s rise to his death, roughly mark the Napoleonic Period, an era that left indelible marks upon the face of Europe and the world.

KAT Napoleonic is a keycap set in the KAT profile that explores the history and artistic depictions of the Napoleonic Period.


US International on Mech27-TKL by Mech27. Render by Manzel.

Neoclassical Typeface
KAT Napoleonic utilizes a modified form of Playfair Display for most of its alpha keys and legend text. It is a serif-based typeface (uncommon in keycaps), and it is inspired by the Transitional and Neoclassical typefaces of the nineteenth century: Baskerville, Bodoni, and Didot.

Wide Affordable Localization
Because of the global nature of Napoleon’s impact on history, a primary goal for KAT Napoleonic has always been wide localization support. While it may not always be practical for manufacturers to support a wider array of languages and layouts in a cost-effective manner, the KAT profile does provide that flexibility.

While this keyset cannot feasibly provide support for every language worldwide, KAT Napoleonic supports more than twenty-one locales in base alpha kits. Kits available include many that are rarely (if ever) seen in the Mechanical Keyboard hobby: Swiss, BÉPO, South Slavic, Tamil, Cherokee, and Canadian French.

Colors & Uniforms
KAT Napoleonic’s primary alpha legends present dark indigo text upon a warm, ivory-like white background. A lower-contrast yellow-gold color is used for alpha key sublegends.

KAT Napoleonic’s modifier keys come in three “uniforms” of color, each inspired by the military uniforms of the era, with particular attention to the Battle of Austerlitz (1805). Austerlitz was a clash of three empires: France, Russia, and Austria. For KAT Napoleonic, you are likewise given a choice of three uniforms: French Indigo, Russian Green, and Austrian White.

Read more about the Colors & Uniforms on Wordpress.

Renders
Only a subset of renders are shown here (to keep the page from taking forever to load).
Please visit the Wordpress site to view all renders in full resolution. Alternatively, check out the Renders album on imgur.


Conone by kindakeyboards. Wellington alphas with British Navy Alt TKL Mods. Render by manzel.


S7-Elephant by jacky. Metternich alphas with TKL mods in Austrian White & Novelties. Render by manzel.


Mech27-TKL by Mech27. Waterloo alphas with TKL mods in French Indigo. Render by manzel.


Boardrun CNC by Shensmobile. Uhlan alphas with Ergo mods in Russian Green & Novelties. Render by manzel.


Neuron by walletburner. Pondicherry alphas with Forties mods in French Indigo. Render by manzel.


Abacus by SomeGreekGuy (unreleased). Austrian White numpad kit. Render by manzel.

Kits
As is typical for KAT, customers will need to choose a selection of “kits” that together will cover their chosen keyboard(s). For KAT Napoleonic, kits are broken into three major categories:
  • Alpha Kits
  • Core Mod Kits
  • Miscellaneous Kits

Kit Details
Imgur Albums

Alpha Kits
There are 21 different base Alpha kits currently planned. This list is not final, and some locales may be removed, updated, or added based on the results of the Interest Check survey.

Alpha Kits Table
More
Alpha kits that provide standard US QWERTY characters either in legends or sublegends are noted in bold in the rightmost column.

Except where noted, all Alpha kits use Windows 10 as the basis for all legends.  Not all characters produced by AltGr or Shift+AltGr are provided in sublegends, with some omitted to keep kit sizes and prices from ballooning while maintaining compatibility.

The latest images are currently provided in this album:
KAT Napoleonic Alpha Kits

Alpha KitSubcategoryLanguages / Locales
Act of MediationQWERTZSwiss French & Swiss German
AgustinaQWERTYSpanish (European & Latin American)
AlexanderNon-LatinRussian, Belarusian, & Ukrainian (US sublegends)
BernadotteQWERTYDanish, Norwegian, Swedish, Finnish, Faroese, & Estonian
Bépoleon NonaparteAlternativeFrench BÉPO
BlücherQWERTYEurKEY v1.2 & v1.3 (US primary legends)
ChateauguayQWERTYCombined Canadian Multilingual & Canadian French
DoppelkaiserQWERTZCombined South Slavic Latin & Hungarian
JeffersonQWERTYUS English
Jonathan StrangeAlternativeColemak, Asset, Norman, & Workman
JoséphineAZERTYFrench (Windows)
KarađorđeNon-LatinSouth Slavic Cyrillic (Latin QWERTZ sublegends)
Marie LouiseAZERTYFrench (Apple) & Belgian French
MetternichQWERTZGerman & Austrian
Mr NorrellAlternativeDvorak (US & UK English)
NagasakiNon-LatinJapanese JIS & ANSI-JP with Katakana (US primary legends included)
PondicherryNon-LatinIndian Tamil (Tamil 99)
SequoyahNon-LatinCherokee Nation (US English sublegends)
UhlanQWERTYCombined Polish & Lithuanian (US English primary legends)
WaterlooQWERTYUS International (Netherlands)
WellingtonQWERTYUK English & Irish

Core Modifier Kits
There are five core modifier kits for KAT Napoleonic, each provided with two-or-three colored “uniform” options: French Indigo, Russian Green, or Austrian White. Each core modifier kit also comes with a custom set of military-themed novelty keys: Retreat, Attack, Support, and Hold.

Additionally, a "British Navy" TKL Mods kit will be available. It uses the same primary mod colors as the French Indigo colorway but with a more mainstream legend scheme. It will be compatible with the French Indigo Numpad kit for full-size and 1800 boards. It is also a more pared-down mods kit,

Core Mod Kits on Wordpress

Some boards require one of the additional Miscellaneous Kits (e.g. Spacebars) for complete coverage. See the shopping list for examples.

Core Mod Kits Table
TKL ModsTKL in IndigoTKL in GreenTKL in White
Alt TKL ModsBritish Navy TKL
NumpadNumpad in IndigoNumpad in GreenNumpad in White
Ortho ModsOrtho in IndigoOrtho in GreenOrtho in White
Forties ModsForties in IndigoForties in Green
Ergo ModsErgo in IndigoErgo in Green

Miscellaneous Kits
Miscellaneous Kits on Wordpress

Further Information
As has been noted several times, complete information about this keyset can be found on the KAT Napoleonic Home Page on Wordpress: (https://tinyurl.com/kat-napoleonic).

Physical Color Standards
More

KAT-Nap colors: RAL 5011, RAL 9010, Pantone 7403 U, RAL 6005, & RAL 3031

Colors shown in keyboard renders and diagrams should not be treated as accurate representations of final keycap colors. Manufacturer samples will be checked against physical color decks of the RAL and Pantone standards above. Be aware that some variation is always possible, and these colors are not guaranteed to be exact.

Existing Set Comparison
More
Early concept diagrams for KAT Napoleonic drew comparisons to GMK Rudy by Warrenified. Because the keycap designer community tends to frown on overly-similar colorways, Warrenified was consulted so as to double-check that we were in fact using different colors.


GMK Rudy (left) comparison to KAT Napoleonic French Indigo mods (right). Render by Ulliam.

Deskpads & Peripherals (WIP)
More
Visit the Wordpress site for more details.


Minard Deskpad


Tolstoy Deskpad

Copyright & Citations
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Creative Commons Derivative Works
The following component designs and icons are licensed under Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3 (full license text):

Austrian Shield Outline. Derivative work based on “Imperial Coat of Arms of the Empire of Austria.svg” by Sodacan @ Wikimedia Commons (https://tinyurl.com/omvdoy9).
Bee Monogram. Derivative work based on “Imperial Coat of Arms of France (1804-1815).svg” by Katepanomegas @ Wikimedia Commons (https://tinyurl.com/yd8ezb7p).
French Shield Outline. Derivative work based on “Imperial Coat of Arms of France (1804-1815).svg” by Katepanomegas @ Wikimedia Commons (https://tinyurl.com/yd8ezb7p).
Minard Chart. Derivative work based on “Minard’s Map (vectorized).svg” by Martin Grandjean @ Wikimedia Commons (https://tinyurl.com/yacwdyvt).
Russian Shield Outline. Derivative work based on “Imperial Standard of the Emperor of Russia (1858–1917).svg” by TRAJAN 117 @ Wikimedia Commons (https://tinyurl.com/y7fryjn4).

Public Domain Works Cited
Bellangé, Hippolyte. “Light Infantry: Voltigeur and Carabinier from the Grande Armée.” From Histoire de Napoleon by P.-M. Laurent de L`Ardeche. 1843. Accessed via Wikimedia Commons. URL: https://tinyurl.com/yymvd5qe
David, Jacques-Louis. Napoleon Crossing the Alps. First version, painted 1800. Accessed via Wikimedia Commons. URL: https://tinyurl.com/yycndry3
David, Jacques-Louis. Napoleon Crossing the Alps. Third version, painted 1802. Accessed via Wikimedia Commons. URL: https://tinyurl.com/y36vvhg8
Gérard, François. The Battle of Austerlitz, 2nd December 1805. Painted 1810. Accessed via Wikimedia Commons. URL: https://tinyurl.com/y6zsvxk9
Karl Philipp, Prince of Schwarzenberg. Painting in the Castle Gallery at Český Krumlov. Unidentified painter, 19th century. Accessed via Wikimedia Commons. URL: https://tinyurl.com/yxafg7gg
Knotel, Richard. Uniformenkunde, Lose Blatter zur Geschihte der Entwicklung der militarischen Tracht. Berlin, 1890. Accessed via Wikimedia Commons. URL: https://tinyurl.com/y39cw53g
Louis-François, Baron Lejeune. Battle of Borodino 1812. Painted 1822. Accessed via Wikimedia Commons. URL:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Battle_of_Borodino_1812.png
Moshkov, Vladimir Ivanovich. Battle of Leipzig. Painted 1815. Accessed via Wikimedia Commons. URL: https://tinyurl.com/y364sppl
Neumann, Fritz. The charge of the 19th Hungarian infantry regiment in the Battle of Leipzig (1813) against the French. Painted 19th century. Accessed via Wikimedia Commons. URL: https://tinyurl.com/y3gwv9e7
Philippoteaux, Henri Félix Emmanuel. The Battle of Waterloo: The British Squares Receiving the Charge of the French Cuirassiers. Painted 1874. Accessed via Wikimedia Commons. URL: https://tinyurl.com/y57saukc
Tolstoy, Leo. War and Peace. Excerpt from the original Russian text. Published 1869. Accessed via Master Russian. URL: http://masterrussian.com/war_and_peace.shtml
Vernet, Horace. The Battle of Hanau. Painted 1824. Accessed via Wikimedia Commons. URL: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Vernet-Battle_of_Hanau.jpg

Further Notes
All historical blurbs appearing in kit diagrams are paraphrased from various Wikipedia articles, except for a few selected quotes from:

Clarke, Susanna. Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell. Bloomsbury, copyright 2004. Goodreads URL: https://tinyurl.com/yxps4uaf
No intellectual property from the above was used in the design of the actual keycaps or deskmats. Quotes and names used from Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell in kit diagrams are intended as an homage. No endorsement of KAT Napoleonic by Susanna Clarke or Bloomsbury has been given nor should be implied.

All other designs are copyright 2020 by W. Alex Ronke (a.k.a. NoPunIn10Did). All Rights Reserved.

Thanks
More
  • Thanks to my wife, the love of my life, who has been very patient and supportive of all my creative endeavors.
  • Thanks to my daughter, who is an absolutely adorable four-year-old and brings so much joy to my life.
  • Thanks to Erik (a.k.a. MK Ultra), who believed in this project while it was still a germ of an idea.
  • Huge thanks to manzel for his amazing and punctual render work.
  • Thanks to Konstantin for all the advice on the particulars of punctuation positioning in legends as well as for drawing the correct Cyrillic J for the Karađorđe alpha kit.
  • Thanks to myKeyboard.eu for committing to be a vendor for this set, and for helping with French conjugation & translation.
  • Thanks to onecreativemind for early advice on the modifier icons.
  • Thanks to Alex Lin at zFrontier for answering my KAT questions and committing to a Group Buy date early in this process.
  • Thanks to Ulliam for providing renders for the J02, the Prime_E, and the GMK Rudy comparison.
  • Thanks to shensmobile for sharing the Boardrun CNC file and for being a good creative sounding-board.
  • Thanks to walletburner for giving permission to render the Neuron keyboard.
  • Thanks to SomeGreekGuy for sharing the Abacus CNC file and giving permission to render it.
  • Thanks to the members and moderators of the many Discord servers where I’ve solicited feedback for this and other projects, with particular thanks to:
    • 40% Keyboards
    • Keycap Designers
    • Carolina Keyboards
    • Keyboard Atelier

Geekhack Banner Code
Copy the following to your forum profile signature if you’d like to help spread the word about KAT Napoleonic!
Code: [Select]
[url=https://tinyurl.com/kat-napoleonic][img width=360 height=120]https://i.imgur.com/73UjvEA.png[/img][/url]
« Last Edit: Thu, 08 October 2020, 07:58:01 by NoPunIn10Did »

Offline NoPunIn10Did

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 24 August 2020, 12:48:23 »
Reserved

Offline yoot

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 24 August 2020, 12:48:56 »
This is crazy! GLWIC/GB


Offline ddrfraser1

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 24 August 2020, 12:50:34 »
Neat idea. Looks like a board game. It looks great but not my aesthetic for a keyboard. Good luck!

Offline zekth

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 24 August 2020, 12:59:51 »
Nice.

Just, on the BEPO kit. Missing sublegend ’ on R3 É as you've put it on R3 È
Also as you've put all the sublegends you may miss on on S : β and one on G  : µ

See: http://bepo.fr/wiki/Accueil

Offline DrHigsby

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 24 August 2020, 13:04:36 »
POG! It’s finally happening! I’m so happy to see your project hit the “GH IC” stage!

Offline NoPunIn10Did

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 24 August 2020, 13:15:28 »
Nice.

Just, on the BEPO kit. Missing sublegend ’ on R3 É as you've put it on R3 È
Also as you've put all the sublegends you may miss on on S : β and one on G  : µ

See: http://bepo.fr/wiki/Accueil
Thanks for the notes!  I was using that site's provided implementation for Windows, and I either missed those keys or they were bugged in what I'd installed.  I'll go back and fix those.

Offline Fredington

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 24 August 2020, 13:33:15 »
Naise.

Offline Bonsa

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 24 August 2020, 13:44:46 »
Wow, this looks great!

Offline zitres

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 24 August 2020, 14:00:26 »
Finally a set with a serif font!
I love literaly everything about this set and cant really wait to get it.
Even the Non-Latin alphas look so awesome.


Offline Myoth

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 24 August 2020, 14:15:23 »
I'm surely nitpicking but I, at least, want to spark a little bit of discussion about what I've noticed. I just am very impressed by the effort put into this, so I very much want the best for it :D

I'm surprised, as a native french speaker, to see some of the legends on the Mods : Retirer, Soutenir and the lack of Défendre. Retirer doesn't sound very natural in this context, I would have used "Retraite". For Soutenir, I would have used "Soutien". Résister and Défendre are very close, but Défendre is more common, so I'm surprised to not see it used. Now ... I noticed the fact that you only used verbs, so I wonder if that was meant, or just a coincidence ?

I'll just mention other things I find weird, but that aren't very important : 2 tabs ? I wouldn't really put Attn on the Pause keycap as it is a front legend usually. And something is botheing me about some of the abbreviations but I honestly don't have any solution for that hahaha

Offline KuroTheCrazy

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 24 August 2020, 14:15:50 »
Really looking forward to this.

Offline Boy_314

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 24 August 2020, 14:27:35 »
with all these alpha kits, have you considered adding support for obscure layouts such as MTGAP or BEAKL?

BEAKL here: https://ieants.cc/code/keyboard/beakl/
MTGAP here: https://imgur.com/a/qebTEh3

There are other obscure layouts generated by computers that are also very well optimized for comfort.

don't feel super inclined tho, almost nobody uses these types of layouts, but KAT kitting is the closest users will get to correct legends on these layouts.

edit: fixed mtgap link
edit 2: here's a link to a lot of these obscure layouts - https://m****ens.me/typing/alternative_layouts.html
« Last Edit: Mon, 24 August 2020, 14:36:55 by Boy_314 »

Offline NoPunIn10Did

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 24 August 2020, 14:38:32 »
I'm surely nitpicking but I, at least, want to spark a little bit of discussion about what I've noticed. I just am very impressed by the effort put into this, so I very much want the best for it :D

I'm surprised, as a native french speaker, to see some of the legends on the Mods : Retirer, Soutenir and the lack of Défendre. Retirer doesn't sound very natural in this context, I would have used "Retraite". For Soutenir, I would have used "Soutien". Résister and Défendre are very close, but Défendre is more common, so I'm surprised to not see it used. Now ... I noticed the fact that you only used verbs, so I wonder if that was meant, or just a coincidence ?
So I worked with a French speaker on those (as well as on the abbreviations), and the intent was for them to be verbs (like the majority of mod keys).  Résister is meant to be a replacement for "Hold" rather than strictly "Defend."  If Défendre is indeed more common, though, I'll look at how it fits as a replacement.
I'll just mention other things I find weird, but that aren't very important : 2 tabs ? I wouldn't really put Attn on the Pause keycap as it is a front legend usually. And something is botheing me about some of the abbreviations but I honestly don't have any solution for that hahaha
Two tabs are included so that the whole mods kit can be split between two boards.  So much is currently expected compatibility-wise from a standard mod kit that you end up with a lot of redundancy.  Tab happened to be the only key without any repeats for a second 60% board, so I threw one in to help with the value-to-price ratio.

Pause/Attn were definitely both printed on the top face for most of the French keyboards I had found for reference.  I think what may need to change is to have a line between them (which would likewise be done for Pause/Break)

Offline Brawlbeard

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 24 August 2020, 14:39:58 »
Looks really good. Very nice Localization Support.
I think the Austrian Kit would look better, if it had red Modifiers.
Text+Icon Modifiers like the other kits, would also be cool.

Offline NoPunIn10Did

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #15 on: Mon, 24 August 2020, 14:40:46 »
with all these alpha kits, have you considered adding support for obscure layouts such as MTGAP or BEAKL?

BEAKL here: https://ieants.cc/code/keyboard/beakl/
MTGAP here: https://imgur.com/a/qebTEh3

There are other obscure layouts generated by computers that are also very well optimized for comfort.

don't feel super inclined tho, almost nobody uses these types of layouts, but KAT kitting is the closest users will get to correct legends on these layouts.

edit: fixed mtgap link
edit 2: here's a link to a lot of these obscure layouts - https://m****ens.me/typing/alternative_layouts.html

Thought about MTGAP as a possibility; it would have been combined with the Dvorak kit in all likelihood (in lieu of the UK support present there).

I'm going to be using the survey responses to try and gauge which languages and layouts should be added or removed, though.  I'm hoping to keep the total kit count capped at 40, so nearly anything added would need to yield something else removed.

Offline NoPunIn10Did

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 24 August 2020, 14:43:24 »
Looks really good. Very nice Localization Support.
I think the Austrian Kit would look better, if it had red Modifiers.
Text+Icon Modifiers like the other kits, would also be cool.
I thought about red mods for Austria.  If this set is successful, I'm planning to do a follow-up with similar styling (possible for another profile) that's based on the Habsburgs.  There, red may be a more dominant color, as might the black-and-yellow of the Habsburg flag.

As it stands, the primary expected audience for the Austrian White mods is the ortho community, some of whom expressed interest in monocolor and icon-only sets specifically.

Offline Boy_314

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #17 on: Mon, 24 August 2020, 14:43:45 »
with all these alpha kits, have you considered adding support for obscure layouts such as MTGAP or BEAKL?

BEAKL here: https://ieants.cc/code/keyboard/beakl/
MTGAP here: https://imgur.com/a/qebTEh3

There are other obscure layouts generated by computers that are also very well optimized for comfort.

don't feel super inclined tho, almost nobody uses these types of layouts, but KAT kitting is the closest users will get to correct legends on these layouts.

edit: fixed mtgap link
edit 2: here's a link to a lot of these obscure layouts - https://m****ens.me/typing/alternative_layouts.html

Thought about MTGAP as a possibility; it would have been combined with the Dvorak kit in all likelihood (in lieu of the UK support present there).

I'm going to be using the survey responses to try and gauge which languages and layouts should be added or removed, though.  I'm hoping to keep the total kit count capped at 40, so nearly anything added would need to yield something else removed.

gotcha. filled out the form.

Offline depletedvespene

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #18 on: Mon, 24 August 2020, 14:46:32 »
Besides wodan's HADapter (strictly for Germans), I don't think I had ever seen a set where the movable alpha key is present in its three main places... in each and every single national alphas kit.

There is indeed a lot of work on this set, and it totally shows.

Offline NoPunIn10Did

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #19 on: Mon, 24 August 2020, 15:52:54 »
Besides wodan's HADapter (strictly for Germans), I don't think I had ever seen a set where the movable alpha key is present in its three main places... in each and every single national alphas kit.

There is indeed a lot of work on this set, and it totally shows.
Thanks!

I get why lots of other sets forego that level of format compatibility, particularly when you're looking at doubleshot caps.  KAT gives you so much freaking flexibility.

Offline Skok

  • Posts: 106
Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #20 on: Mon, 24 August 2020, 16:06:12 »
Never thought a Serif font would look good on keycaps, this changed my mind. Very classy and good looking set. Good luck with GB!

Offline bobgr8

  • Posts: 127
Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #21 on: Mon, 24 August 2020, 21:06:36 »
Never thought would see a Tamil set, Kudos man. Can we expect more languages like Sanskrit/ Hindi in the future?



Offline Puddsy

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #22 on: Mon, 24 August 2020, 21:15:40 »
i see this and i think "man what a QC nightmare"
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Offline NoPunIn10Did

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #23 on: Mon, 24 August 2020, 21:37:42 »
Never thought would see a Tamil set, Kudos man. Can we expect more languages like Sanskrit/ Hindi in the future?
Possibly.  I'd need to do some research on the script conventions used by Hindi keyboards and get in contact with some Hindi typists (which is what I'm attempting with both the Tamil and Cherokee sets here).

I wanted to stretch a little out of the West for this set but still keep it connected to Napoleonic politics, and the fact that the colony of Pondicherry specifically had a role in Anglo-French relations (and was used as a bargaining chip) seemed like a good inroads for that.

I have hopes to do more sets in future that stretch to other locales, so we'll just have to see.

Offline konstantin

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #24 on: Tue, 25 August 2020, 05:12:17 »
First time seeing that Tamil alphas kit. Absolutely gorgeous!

Fantastic job all in all, GLWIC ;)

Offline marshskitow

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #25 on: Tue, 25 August 2020, 06:59:34 »
Oh my god! This is amazing ! First time i see a swiss kit!

I do not have the time to read all rigjt now but basicly if this is going to gb, is all the kit gonna be in ?

Ty


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Offline NoPunIn10Did

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #26 on: Tue, 25 August 2020, 07:05:15 »
Oh my god! This is amazing ! First time i see a swiss kit!

I do not have the time to read all rigjt now but basicly if this is going to gb, is all the kit gonna be in ?

Ty


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That is indeed the intent. The final kitting will probably be tweaked, and there’s always a chance of something being added or removed, but my goal is to keep any alpha kits that are currently planned assuming people ask for them.

So be sure to fill out the survey!

Offline marshskitow

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #27 on: Tue, 25 August 2020, 09:50:18 »
Of course filled the form :)

There is symbols missing on the swiss layout, we have 3 (using shift or alt). Do you think we can add it?


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Offline konstantin

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #28 on: Tue, 25 August 2020, 13:52:11 »
There is symbols missing on the swiss layout, we have 3 (using shift or alt). Do you think we can add it?

Could you elaborate what exactly you mean by this? As far as I can tell, nothing is missing in the Swiss kit: both the Shift and AltGr legends are there (the latter might be a tad hard to see, though).

Offline marshskitow

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #29 on: Tue, 25 August 2020, 13:56:05 »
I was on my phone outside when i saw this IC, and i didn't see the yellow on white legends. Sorry.  ;)
I think i already told you by mail.

Good job anyway it look awsome.  :thumb:

Offline harlekein

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #30 on: Wed, 26 August 2020, 02:56:09 »
I am loving the Pondicherry alpha's.

The way you approach this GB is beyond anything I've seen, so my compliments for that!

I'm not sure what the demand is for the green and white ortho mod, but my ideal ortho kit would be an indigo icon only mod kit. I might get the white instead, but I'm kind of on the fence.

Offline paperassgasket

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #31 on: Thu, 27 August 2020, 21:39:13 »
The amount of effort that went into this is absolutely epic.

Offline Puddsy

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #32 on: Thu, 27 August 2020, 22:06:50 »
thinking of dvorcol every time i look at this set
QFR | MJ2 TKL | "Bulgogiboard" (Keycon 104) | TGR Alice | Qlavier Ti/Acryl Alice (lost in mail T_T) | Revo One | z | Keycult No. 1

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Offline Wazazaby

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #33 on: Fri, 28 August 2020, 08:05:28 »
Great work!
Definitely in for a Ginny set :)

Offline Will Morrisson

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #34 on: Fri, 28 August 2020, 10:20:48 »
I'm a simple man, I see bépo support, I like  :D

Really fantastic work on this. Happy to see some love for the way-too-often forgotten localized layouts.

IC Form completed, now waiting… impatiently :-X

Offline marshskitow

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #35 on: Thu, 03 September 2020, 01:15:45 »
Is there a way to make somthing lime a poll, then everybody can say what alpha kit he is interested?

I mean something we can trust. We could see what is the country where is not enough orders...


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Offline elmo

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #36 on: Thu, 03 September 2020, 03:26:58 »
You are never going to hit MOQ with any of those special layout kits. Period.

Offline dmatx1

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #37 on: Thu, 03 September 2020, 04:09:12 »
You are never going to hit MOQ with any of those special layout kits. Period.
Luckily this is KAT where there is no kit level MOQ like at GMK, just set level MOQ for the amount of keycap surface sold.

Offline eskimojo

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #38 on: Thu, 03 September 2020, 05:23:23 »
You are never going to hit MOQ with any of those special layout kits. Period.

KAT doesn't have kit MOQs. It's solely based on a cumulative MOQ - each kit is worth a certain amount of units (derived from how many 1u keys or equivalent it has), which is multiplied by how many of that kit is sold, which is then added up to a total MOQ value.

As long as this overall MOQ is hit (which is usually 54k units, though 24k and 120k MOQs are available), all kits will be made in whatever quantity they were ordered in, no matter how small.

For a practical example, here's the sales figures for Lich, and how that was calculated into MOQ progress. (The remaining % needed to make it to MOQ were reached with vendor extras)

Even though the South kit only sold 1 kit, that buyer will receive that kit.

This sort of flips the usual MOQ logic on its head - it's almost beneficial for a set to have many kits, MOQ wise. The main reason to still limit the amount of kits is for the vendors' sakes, as the time and effort needed to sort and pack that many SKUs can be difficult. As long as the vendors have signed off with running that many kits, there's not really any issues with it.
« Last Edit: Thu, 03 September 2020, 05:26:17 by eskimojo »

Offline Cave

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #39 on: Thu, 03 September 2020, 08:30:55 »
You are never going to hit MOQ with any of those special layout kits. Period.

KAT doesn't have kit MOQs. It's solely based on a cumulative MOQ - each kit is worth a certain amount of units (derived from how many 1u keys or equivalent it has), which is multiplied by how many of that kit is sold, which is then added up to a total MOQ value.

As long as this overall MOQ is hit (which is usually 54k units, though 24k and 120k MOQs are available), all kits will be made in whatever quantity they were ordered in, no matter how small.

For a practical example, here's the sales figures for Lich, and how that was calculated into MOQ progress. (The remaining % needed to make it to MOQ were reached with vendor extras)
Show Image

Even though the South kit only sold 1 kit, that buyer will receive that kit.

This sort of flips the usual MOQ logic on its head - it's almost beneficial for a set to have many kits, MOQ wise. The main reason to still limit the amount of kits is for the vendors' sakes, as the time and effort needed to sort and pack that many SKUs can be difficult. As long as the vendors have signed off with running that many kits, there's not really any issues with it.

I am so glad this is the case. I know many people wont be going for that Pondicherry alphas, but i am really looking forward to it. Might just buy couple since some of my friends are interested in it as well. Very well detailed IC  :thumb:

Offline NoPunIn10Did

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #40 on: Fri, 04 September 2020, 00:22:15 »
Is there a way to make somthing lime a poll, then everybody can say what alpha kit he is interested?

I mean something we can trust. We could see what is the country where is not enough orders...


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There’s a survey linked at the top of the post.

Offline NoPunIn10Did

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #41 on: Fri, 04 September 2020, 00:37:37 »
I have several kit updates that I’ve posted to Discord. I’m going to try and get them up to the WordPress site as well as this thread soon; I’ve just been catching up on work and trying (and not always succeeding) to avoid getting overly distracted.

Couple big changes: the South Slavic Latin kit (Illyria) has been reworked to become the Doppelkaiser kit, which supports both South Slavic Latin and Hungarian. Likewise, the Chateauguay kit now supports both Canadian French and Canadian Multilingual.

Both of those, as well as the Uhlan kit (US/Polish/Lithuanian), use a slight update to the color scheme because they display primary legends, AltGr legends, and a second language simultaneously. Have a look!

Offline dmatx1

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #42 on: Fri, 04 September 2020, 03:10:39 »
I have several kit updates that I’ve posted to Discord. I’m going to try and get them up to the WordPress site as well as this thread soon; I’ve just been catching up on work and trying (and not always succeeding) to avoid getting overly distracted.
Great kit updates, thanks  :thumb:

Offline harlekein

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #43 on: Fri, 04 September 2020, 04:10:57 »
You are never going to hit MOQ with any of those special layout kits. Period.
I'm so glad you're dead wrong. Period.

Offline NoPunIn10Did

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #44 on: Fri, 04 September 2020, 05:52:13 »
Let’s not keep hassling Elmo.

I’m surprised when any GH regular has somehow missed hearing of KAT’s MOQ model before, but at this point there are enough replies chastising him. We can move on.

Offline NoPunIn10Did

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #45 on: Fri, 04 September 2020, 10:53:18 »
I am so glad this is the case. I know many people wont be going for that Pondicherry alphas, but i am really looking forward to it. Might just buy couple since some of my friends are interested in it as well. Very well detailed IC  :thumb:
I'm fairly certain the Pondicherry and Sequoyah alphas are going to be quite popular, primarily because the keyboard community likes non-Latin alphas (and those particular layouts are rarely, if ever, printed industrially).

It's the layouts like Czech, Spanish, and Portuguese that are a bit more on the fence. Lots of potential buyers, but it's hard to measure just how many are active in the hobby (and how many of them haven't just given up and switched to a US International or Eurkey layout instead).

Offline depletedvespene

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #46 on: Sat, 05 September 2020, 20:31:44 »
Took me long enough, but I performed a review of most of the alpha kits. I have several observations:


Applicable to all: I know this is a subjective matter, but I find it weird that letters in the AltGr layers are displayed in lowercase instead of uppercase.


Wellington (English (UK)): R2 #~ is missing the secondary \ and | symbols. OR, better, the other copies of the #~ unduly have them. The actual English (UK) layout doesn't place backslash and pipe in the tertiary and quaternary layers for the movable keycap — it's an addition by Microsoft's implementation.


Waterloo (English (US, international)): the S keycap should have § in the upper right corner.


Uhlan (combined Polish and Lithuanian): the difference between lowercase tertiary legends (Polish) and uppercase quaternary (Lithuanian) comes off as odd.

Murat (Spanish and Italian):
- Spanish (Spain): 1!| , 2"@ , 4$~ are missing.
- Italian: supports Italian (141), but that layout was deprecated long ago in favor of Italian (142). The curly braces are missing (but don't fix that! Go 142 instead).
- Make a note stating that this set supports Spanish (Spain), not Spanish (Latin America)... or Iberoamerican Spanish, for that matter.

Mr Norrell (US & UK English Dvorak):
The R3 #~ keycap has the \| symbols added (I'd erase them, as they're absent from the other copies of #~ ).

Marie Louise (French Apple and Belgian): if this is intended to support Belgian on Windows, there are too many errors. Looks like it's meant for Apple only, but it's not clear from the description. I can't find Belgian on Windows support in other kits.


João VI (Portuguese):
- 4$ should be 4$§ ; 7/ and 0= are missing the curly braces.
- Make a note that this set supports Portuguese (Portugal), not Portuguese (Brazil).


Bernadotte (Danish, Norwegian, Swedish/Finnish, "etc."):
- Plain M (without µ) is missing (Nordic layouts in general don't use it).
- Danish is missing ◌́◌̀|  and <>\
- Estonian (if supported) is missing '?\ , Ä◌̂ , , <>|
- Faroese (if supported) is missing ◌́◌̀| , <>\ , Ø◌̂ , Å◌̈ , Ð◌̃
- Icelandic — too many keys missing; it's obvious it's not supported.
- Swedish/Finnish: <>| and +?\ are missing.


Act of mediation (Swiss):
- R3 "!] - note the first character is supposed to be ◌̈ , not a quote sign.
- 4ç° and 5%§ : the degree and section signs are not part of the Swiss layout (they're part of MS' ****ty implementation).
- Note the placement of | and ¦  (again, a problem of MS' ****ty implementation).


Chateauguay (Canadian BILINGUAL):
- The corner key is #|\ — the forward slash is out of place there.
- 1! is missing ± in the tertiary corner.
- 2"@ - check those corners!
- Missing tertiaries from 3/ up to =+ , all R3 keys from O onwards and R2 keys from ;: onwards.
- R1 «»Ù is actually «»°. Tertiaries missing from M onwards.

Was this layout based exclusively on Apple's implementation? That would explain all the errors (remember the Golden Rule of Apple and Keyboards).


Oof. ;D

Offline NoPunIn10Did

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #47 on: Sat, 05 September 2020, 23:02:00 »
Took me long enough, but I performed a review of most of the alpha kits. I have several observations:


Applicable to all: I know this is a subjective matter, but I find it weird that letters in the AltGr layers are displayed in lowercase instead of uppercase.


Wellington (English (UK)): R2 #~ is missing the secondary \ and | symbols. OR, better, the other copies of the #~ unduly have them. The actual English (UK) layout doesn't place backslash and pipe in the tertiary and quaternary layers for the movable keycap — it's an addition by Microsoft's implementation.


Waterloo (English (US, international)): the S keycap should have § in the upper right corner.


Uhlan (combined Polish and Lithuanian): the difference between lowercase tertiary legends (Polish) and uppercase quaternary (Lithuanian) comes off as odd.

Murat (Spanish and Italian):
- Spanish (Spain): 1!| , 2"@ , 4$~ are missing.
- Italian: supports Italian (141), but that layout was deprecated long ago in favor of Italian (142). The curly braces are missing (but don't fix that! Go 142 instead).
- Make a note stating that this set supports Spanish (Spain), not Spanish (Latin America)... or Iberoamerican Spanish, for that matter.

Mr Norrell (US & UK English Dvorak):
The R3 #~ keycap has the \| symbols added (I'd erase them, as they're absent from the other copies of #~ ).

Marie Louise (French Apple and Belgian): if this is intended to support Belgian on Windows, there are too many errors. Looks like it's meant for Apple only, but it's not clear from the description. I can't find Belgian on Windows support in other kits.


João VI (Portuguese):
- 4$ should be 4$§ ; 7/ and 0= are missing the curly braces.
- Make a note that this set supports Portuguese (Portugal), not Portuguese (Brazil).


Bernadotte (Danish, Norwegian, Swedish/Finnish, "etc."):
- Plain M (without µ) is missing (Nordic layouts in general don't use it).
- Danish is missing ◌́◌̀|  and <>\
- Estonian (if supported) is missing '?\ , Ä◌̂ , , <>|
- Faroese (if supported) is missing ◌́◌̀| , <>\ , Ø◌̂ , Å◌̈ , Ð◌̃
- Icelandic — too many keys missing; it's obvious it's not supported.
- Swedish/Finnish: <>| and +?\ are missing.


Act of mediation (Swiss):
- R3 "!] - note the first character is supposed to be ◌̈ , not a quote sign.
- 4ç° and 5%§ : the degree and section signs are not part of the Swiss layout (they're part of MS' ****ty implementation).
- Note the placement of | and ¦  (again, a problem of MS' ****ty implementation).


Chateauguay (Canadian BILINGUAL):
- The corner key is #|\ — the forward slash is out of place there.
- 1! is missing ± in the tertiary corner.
- 2"@ - check those corners!
- Missing tertiaries from 3/ up to =+ , all R3 keys from O onwards and R2 keys from ;: onwards.
- R1 «»Ù is actually «»°. Tertiaries missing from M onwards.

Was this layout based exclusively on Apple's implementation? That would explain all the errors (remember the Golden Rule of Apple and Keyboards).


Oof. ;D

I’ll review these notes and double-check my current diagrams. Several of them have already undergone significant changes, and some errors may have been corrected.

Regarding lowercase, the convention I’m using here is that anything printed on the lower half of the key is an unshifted character, while anything on the top half is shifted.

Regarding #~, I decided to put the additional \| characters in the AltGr and Shift-AltGr slots solely for keys that would be used in an atypical layout. If someone is using standard full ISO, then there’s no need for those legends, but if someone is using an ANSI or HHKB type board, then they might not have a backslash key at all.

Unless specifically noted, Windows is the basis for implementation, as it is the means by which I can retrieve the most complete and accurate documentation for a layout: the implementation file itself (either activated directly or viewed in KbdEdit).

Where I’ve implemented Apple layouts, I’ve used a combination of photos and diagrams of Apple keyboards along with the Magic Utilities implementations of those keyboards (which tend to translate the most important Option key characters into AltGr characters for Windows).

Note that some AltGr characters are missing from sets where multiple languages are grouped together and where those characters are not consistent across all languages supported in the kit. That’s been a consistent challenge, trying to determine which AltGr legends to prioritize in such sets, versus which to leave out to keep the overall kit cost down.

As to not putting mu on a Nordic layout, can you elaborate? Most diagrams and photos I’ve seen of Norwegian, Swedish, and Danish boards seem to have that character visible, and all of those layouts definitely include it implementation-wise.
« Last Edit: Sat, 05 September 2020, 23:32:24 by NoPunIn10Did »

Offline SirTimmyTimbit

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #48 on: Sun, 06 September 2020, 04:32:56 »
I don't know how to feel about the legends. I love em and hate em at the same time lol.

Offline depletedvespene

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #49 on: Sun, 06 September 2020, 08:45:47 »
Unless specifically noted, Windows is the basis for implementation, as it is the means by which I can retrieve the most complete and accurate documentation for a layout: the implementation file itself (either activated directly or viewed in KbdEdit).


Note that some AltGr characters are missing from sets where multiple languages are grouped together and where those characters are not consistent across all languages supported in the kit. That’s been a consistent challenge, trying to determine which AltGr legends to prioritize in such sets, versus which to leave out to keep the overall kit cost down.

I understand that challenge; just make a note listing omissions like that, so the user will understand it was a deliberate compromise instead of a simple error.


As to not putting mu on a Nordic layout, can you elaborate? Most diagrams and photos I’ve seen of Norwegian, Swedish, and Danish boards seem to have that character visible, and all of those layouts definitely include it implementation-wise.

As you mention in a previous paragraph, your basal documentation is Microsoft's implementations of the layouts... but the problem with this is that Microsoft does NOT implement the layouts 100% up to spec. Many of the layouts they implement have been altered — most of the time, it's innocuous additions (like adding the euro symbol to AltGr-5 on most European layouts), but some times they have made rather serious mistakes (like flipping the vertical bar and the broken bar in the Swiss layouts).

Regarding the µ symbol, the German and (old) Dutch layouts have it, but the Nordic layouts in general (Danish, Norwegian, Swedish/Finnish, plus derivatives) do not. Microsoft added it anyway to those layouts, and this DOES count as yet another innocuous addition, but it still isn't in the specs (and according to the Gospel of Saint Myself, this means the symbol should not be printed on the keycap, because muh spec, d00d).

This is ultimately your choice (as this is your set), but it's important to get things straight, as further set runners might copy stuff from yours and fail to realize they might be carrying over what may count as a mistake.


See http://www.farah.cl/Keyboardery/A-Visual-Comparison-of-Different-National-Layouts/#NOR for some funky stuff.