Author Topic: [IC] GMK Wise Wolf | GB 8/21 | Collab Announced  (Read 37467 times)

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Offline iinko_mk

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Re: [IC] GMK Wise Wolf (Novelties Updated)
« Reply #100 on: Tue, 08 December 2020, 17:50:42 »
nice!

Offline SkettyMed

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Re: [IC] GMK Wise Wolf (Novelties Updated)
« Reply #101 on: Tue, 08 December 2020, 21:27:58 »
This is the set that I never knew I wanted! Hard buy for sure and it looks great!

Offline Nutty

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Re: [IC] GMK Wise Wolf (Novelties Updated)
« Reply #102 on: Wed, 09 December 2020, 18:18:25 »
Any updates on the kitting in base, hiragana, spacebars and 40s? Those kits still have issues that we talked about earlier in the thread.

Not going to be making any changes in regards to the Yen on pipe, I personally like it.
As for the spacebar kit it will be staying the same as users of layouts like alice and some other unique layouts.
With the 40's kit I will be adding some of the spacebars into it to hopefully not require 40's to buy both 40's and the spacebar kit.

Offline Nutty

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Re: [IC] GMK Wise Wolf (Novelties Updated)
« Reply #103 on: Wed, 09 December 2020, 18:27:21 »
I wish we had at least 2x 1u novelties for the bottom row of a 7u layout (1.5/1/1.5/7/1.5/1/1.5) with no blockers. They can serve as Win/OS keys.

Getting some updated kit renders made currently. I will be adding a new poll into the IC form deciding on the novelties once the renders are in. I will have two options one being a little bigger than the other to include the wagon wheel as well as having pairs of the r4 novelties to have symmetry on boards. There will be a pair of the 1u coins being added to both options.
« Last Edit: Sun, 20 December 2020, 12:44:35 by Nutty »

Offline Nutty

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Re: [IC] GMK Wise Wolf (Updated Novelties and 40's)
« Reply #104 on: Mon, 14 December 2020, 13:04:40 »
I just made some kitting updates. The novelties I have the wagon wheel removed and added additional pairs of the r4 coin novelty for symmetry who won't be using the S and W. In the 40's kit I have now added the spacebars to avoid them buying both 40's and spacebars kit.

Online LightningXI

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Re: [IC] GMK Wise Wolf (Updated Novelties and 40's)
« Reply #105 on: Mon, 14 December 2020, 13:08:11 »
I just made some kitting updates. The novelties I have the wagon wheel removed and added additional pairs of the r4 coin novelty for symmetry who won't be using the S and W. In the 40's kit I have now added the spacebars to avoid them buying both 40's and spacebars kit.

Thank you so much for the Novelties + Spacebar kits updates! Excellent; I am excited for this set to run in the future.

Offline konstantin

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Re: [IC] GMK Wise Wolf (Updated Novelties and 40's)
« Reply #106 on: Mon, 14 December 2020, 15:40:02 »
Not going to be making any changes in regards to the Yen on pipe, I personally like it.
As for the spacebar kit it will be staying the same as users of layouts like alice and some other unique layouts.
With the 40's kit I will be adding some of the spacebars into it to hopefully not require 40's to buy both 40's and the spacebar kit.

Thanks for your response. I'd like to reiterate a few suggestions which you didn't touch on and which I believe are important, and I'd also like to add in a few new ones.

In the base kit, please consider removing the second R4 1u Ctrl — a key which isn't used by any modern keyboards (all ≥60% boards use at most one 1u Ctrl) — and in its place adding R3 Pg Up, R4 Pg Dn, which are keys preferred by many 65% and 75% users. The R2, R3 variants that are currently in the kit are not a viable substitute for these keys in most cases and for most people that use them.
The way I see it, not including R3 PgUp, R4 PgDn while including obscure things such as 2u Shift and second 1u Ctrl is not a very *cough* wise *cough* move. There are very few people that use those keys (even fewer than there are ISO-UK and 1.5u Super users), whereas 65% and 75% layouts are huge in the community, and a good portion of those users require R3 PgUp, R4 PgDn for their layouts.

Another thing to note in the base kit is that you should either add the missing sublegend to the R1 ` key, or remove the 4$€ key and go fully sublegend-free (note that UK support works just as well without it). The latter option is probably more advisable since not only would it let you cut a not-that-important key from an already large base kit, but also because you don't have any AltGr keys in the set, and sublegends in European layouts are inherently tied to AltGr.

You mentioned that you'd like to keep the yen sign out of personal preference — that's fine, but you should still update the 0)わを and -_ほー keys to have the correct sublegends. Namely, the glyph should be the same size as the below it, and the second key should have a in the top-right corner (this is a special character used when typing Japanese, not a regular dash). Here's an example.

I also recommend you include a R3 1u #~む key in the hiragana kit for basic ISO support with hiragana sublegends.

The following keys should be removed from the spacebars kit because they are not used outside of 40% boards (and 40% have their own kit):
  • 1.75c;
  • second 1c.
In their place, I recommend adding two 3c spacebars. This will allow the kit to cover boards that use 3u space, as well as boards that support standard split 7u configurations (3u+1u+3u).
You may also want to consider adding red accent 6.25c and 7c spacebars to this kit.

Finally, I see a few issues and have a few suggestions for the 40% kit:
  • The first issue is the lack of a R3 1.5u Enter, which is one of the essential 40s keys. Without it, the R2 1.75u Backspace and R4 1.75u Lock that are in the kit cannot be used.
  • The following keys can be removed:
    • R3 1.25u Control (very rarely used, def not worth including);
    • 1.25c space (never used on 40% boards).
  • The 40% community has recently started recommending that designers exclude R4 1.75u Lock and 1.75c space from their GMK 40% kits because these keys are realistically no longer used commonly enough to be justified. This would be my recommendation to you as well, and it should help keep the price of the kit more reasonable, while not sacrificing utility.
  • I suggest including a R4 1.5u Shift. This key is useful for UT47.2 (popular, widely available 40%), Whimsy (upcoming premium 40%) and similar 40s boards, as well as some larger boards: Evolv (75%), Raine (mini-1800).
  • It would be good to change the R3 1u Tab key to a more generic legend, e.g. Code, to give ortho users more flexibility and support more layouts. Tab, as it turns out, is one of the less popular options in this position on ortho boards.
  • Planck and Preonic users like to use a mod-colored R3 1u '"; it's a part of the default layouts for these boards. You may, optionally, want to include this key in the kit.
« Last Edit: Mon, 14 December 2020, 15:47:59 by konstantin »

Offline //gainsborough

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Re: [IC] GMK Wise Wolf (Updated Novelties and 40's)
« Reply #107 on: Mon, 14 December 2020, 21:38:34 »
Thank you so much for the Novelties + Spacebar kits updates! Excellent; I am excited for this set to run in the future.

+1

Offline CookieFlow

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Re: [IC] GMK Wise Wolf (Updated Novelties and 40's)
« Reply #108 on: Tue, 15 December 2020, 09:21:32 »
I saw your comment on the Hanami GB and made me discover this IC.

Awesome and cute looking set.

But same as Hanami Dango, I really don't think alternate Alphas work for GMK due to cost.

I strongly believe that the people prefering the Hiraganas sublegend would be about 50%. And being forced into a 130$+ base kit just to use under 15 keys (for a 65% or under), and even less if you go for the novelties feels horrible.

Please have the option between a Base Alpha kit and a Base Hiragana Kit. Or have the modifiers available as a separate kit so Hiragana buyers aren't forced to spend 130$+ for using just a few keys. It's also such a waste to let that many keys in the box.

The pricing on Hanami was 85$ for the alternate Alphas, and I assume this would be very similar.

I would really hate to have to pass on another set I like because of this.


ps: A rama would be awesome. A red espace key with an Apple like in the novelties with the vibrant color that alumium provides would be stunning.

   

Offline aldrinballado

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Re: [IC] GMK Wise Wolf (Updated Novelties and 40's)
« Reply #109 on: Tue, 15 December 2020, 10:58:37 »
I saw your comment on the Hanami GB and made me discover this IC.

Awesome and cute looking set.

But same as Hanami Dango, I really don't think alternate Alphas work for GMK due to cost.

I strongly believe that the people prefering the Hiraganas sublegend would be about 50%. And being forced into a 130$+ base kit just to use under 15 keys (for a 65% or under), and even less if you go for the novelties feels horrible.

Please have the option between a Base Alpha kit and a Base Hiragana Kit. Or have the modifiers available as a separate kit so Hiragana buyers aren't forced to spend 130$+ for using just a few keys. It's also such a waste to let that many keys in the box.

The pricing on Hanami was 85$ for the alternate Alphas, and I assume this would be very similar.

I would really hate to have to pass on another set I like because of this.


ps: A rama would be awesome. A red espace key with an Apple like in the novelties with the vibrant color that alumium provides would be stunning.



Quote from: Nutty
however I will not be including hiragana in the base set to keep it more natural to the setting of the series being based on medieval Europe.

Did you even read the IC?

Offline CookieFlow

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Re: [IC] GMK Wise Wolf (Updated Novelties and 40's)
« Reply #110 on: Tue, 15 December 2020, 11:47:23 »

Quote from: aldrinballado


Did you even read the IC?

Yes I read the IC.

Which also says that feedback is welcomed. While his point is that the medieval setting is more suited for standard Alphas, I think that the Japanese origin makes it also suited for the Hiragana sub legends, and I believe the split would be fairly 50/50 on who would prefer the regular Alphas or with the Hiragana Sublegends.

My other suggestions if he refuses to do 2 base kits, was to offer a small kit with the modifiers so people that want the Hiraganas aren't forced into purchasing the base kit.


If you also read what I said, the author of this IC agreed to a similar statement I made on Hanami Dango currently in GB that the separate Hiragana Alphas made the set extremely expensive for somebody that will never use the regular Alphas.
Read here: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=110049.0

   

Offline Nutty

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Re: [IC] GMK Wise Wolf (Updated Novelties and 40's)
« Reply #111 on: Tue, 15 December 2020, 11:56:56 »
I really don't think alternate Alphas work for GMK due to cost.I strongly believe that the people prefering the Hiraganas sublegend would be about 50%. And being forced into a 130$+ base kit just to use under 15 keys (for a 65% or under), and even less if you go for the novelties feels horrible.

Please have the option between a Base Alpha kit and a Base Hiragana Kit. Or have the modifiers available as a separate kit so Hiragana buyers aren't forced to spend 130$+ for using just a few keys. It's also such a waste to let that many keys in the box.

The pricing on Hanami was 85$ for the alternate Alphas, and I assume this would be very similar.

I would really hate to have to pass on another set I like because of this.


ps: A rama would be awesome. A red espace key with an Apple like in the novelties with the vibrant color that alumium provides would be stunning.

To response to this, while I do agree that it is pricy for one to buy both a base and then an alpha kit, it is based off a more medieval setting so I find justice in keeping it the way it is.
Also there are more that are just interested in Latin versus hiragana. With forced hiragana, you have to pay more for a Latin alpha kit to remove/fix a set, versus paying for an additional feature that you want.
Additionally, as my this first set, I don't want to have two base kits one with Latin and one with Hiragana as it could be difficult to reach MOQ as a first timer. This is why I have opted out to do international kits and extension kits as well.

As for cost, I personally would suggest a little more research into other sets that do similar thing with alt alphas. I knew that was on the higher end compared to other sets I recall. I have generally seen prices around $60 for alt alphas, so I was unsure of why their kitting was so expensive in Hanami Dango at $85. I have generally noticed that Kono's pricing is a bit higher in regards to kitting. If you want to see other examples of some alt alphas here is a quick couple that I found from past GB's.
GMK Noel (hiragana kit) $58.99
GMK Analog Dreams (hiragana kit) $60
GMK Masterpiece (base katakana to Latin kit) $59
GMK Perestorika (less keys, but going back to Latin) $59
GMK Sumi (higher cost, also has spacebars in hiragana kit) $70

About the metal cap you suggested, I need to have a secured vendor and date before I can start to work on collab work. However, I already have a design made for a potential metal/aluminum/brass keycap if a company/maker will be willing to work with me.

Thanks for your response. I'd like to reiterate a few suggestions which you didn't touch on and which I believe are important, and I'd also like to add in a few new ones.
More
In the base kit, please consider removing the second R4 1u Ctrl a key which isn't used by any modern keyboards (all ≥60% boards use at most one 1u Ctrl) and in its place adding R3 Pg Up, R4 Pg Dn, which are keys preferred by many 65% and 75% users. The R2, R3 variants that are currently in the kit are not a viable substitute for these keys in most cases and for most people that use them.
The way I see it, not including R3 PgUp, R4 PgDn while including obscure things such as 2u Shift and second 1u Ctrl is not a very *cough* wise *cough* move. There are very few people that use those keys (even fewer than there are ISO-UK and 1.5u Super users), whereas 65% and 75% layouts are huge in the community, and a good portion of those users require R3 PgUp, R4 PgDn for their layouts.

Another thing to note in the base kit is that you should either add the missing sublegend to the R1 ` key, or remove the 4$ key and go fully sublegend-free (note that UK support works just as well without it). The latter option is probably more advisable since not only would it let you cut a not-that-important key from an already large base kit, but also because you don't have any AltGr keys in the set, and sublegends in European layouts are inherently tied to AltGr.

You mentioned that you'd like to keep the yen sign out of personal preference that's fine, but you should still update the 0)わを and -_ほー keys to have the correct sublegends. Namely, the glyph should be the same size as the below it, and the second key should have a in the top-right corner (this is a special character used when typing Japanese, not a regular dash). Here's an example.

I also recommend you include a R3 1u #~む key in the hiragana kit for basic ISO support with hiragana sublegends.

The following keys should be removed from the spacebars kit because they are not used outside of 40% boards (and 40% have their own kit):
  • 1.75c;
  • second 1c.
In their place, I recommend adding two 3c spacebars. This will allow the kit to cover boards that use 3u space, as well as boards that support standard split 7u configurations (3u+1u+3u).
You may also want to consider adding red accent 6.25c and 7c spacebars to this kit.

Finally, I see a few issues and have a few suggestions for the 40% kit:
  • The first issue is the lack of a R3 1.5u Enter, which is one of the essential 40s keys. Without it, the R2 1.75u Backspace and R4 1.75u Lock that are in the kit cannot be used.
  • The following keys can be removed:
    • R3 1.25u Control (very rarely used, def not worth including);
    • 1.25c space (never used on 40% boards).
  • The 40% community has recently started recommending that designers exclude R4 1.75u Lock and 1.75c space from their GMK 40% kits because these keys are realistically no longer used commonly enough to be justified. This would be my recommendation to you as well, and it should help keep the price of the kit more reasonable, while not sacrificing utility.
  • I suggest including a R4 1.5u Shift. This key is useful for UT47.2 (popular, widely available 40%), Whimsy (upcoming premium 40%) and similar 40s boards, as well as some larger boards: Evolv (75%), Raine (mini-1800).
  • It would be good to change the R3 1u Tab key to a more generic legend, e.g. Code, to give ortho users more flexibility and support more layouts. Tab, as it turns out, is one of the less popular options in this position on ortho boards.
  • Planck and Preonic users like to use a mod-colored R3 1u '"; it's a part of the default layouts for these boards. You may, optionally, want to include this key in the kit.

Thank you for you feedback. I will be looking into some changes and hopefully have an update coming soon.


An aside, I'm finished up with finals and I should be graduating in the next few days with my BS. With that being said, I will be more active and involved in my project again. I look forward to the future for this!
« Last Edit: Tue, 15 December 2020, 12:48:31 by Nutty »

Offline CookieFlow

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Re: [IC] GMK Wise Wolf (Updated Novelties and 40's)
« Reply #112 on: Tue, 15 December 2020, 13:30:29 »
Thanks for the response.

Even if it's arguable, I understand the argument for the base Alpha instead of Hiragana. I'd have imagined the split would be pretty close to 50/50 but maybe not.
I really hope the Hiragana can be made more in line with those prices, but I fear that the price is increased with the newer molds.

Sadly lately, there seems to be quite a few sets I am interested in with separately sold Alphas, and it's getting really expensive and also feels so wasteful to have all these keys sit in a box, so I had to pass on them.

But if there is a beautiful Rama, I will probably not resist this one  <3
   

Offline konstantin

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Re: [IC] GMK Wise Wolf (Updated Novelties and 40's)
« Reply #113 on: Tue, 15 December 2020, 21:43:00 »
An aside, I'm finished up with finals and I should be graduating in the next few days with my BS. With that being said, I will be more active and involved in my project again. I look forward to the future for this!

Awesome, congratulations!

Offline CookieFlow

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Re: [IC] GMK Wise Wolf (Updated Novelties and 40's)
« Reply #114 on: Wed, 16 December 2020, 13:31:47 »
Just one last thing, which I just learned today.

Apparently having a base kit without Alphas is possible. Then buyers can choose which Alphas they prefer.
It will most likely be slightly more expensive, but could be a good compromise.

One of the last GB I parted in was Yuru which offered 2 base kits and the split was 1072 Hiragana and 673 Alphas, which I why I thought most Japanese inspired kit seems pretty 50/50.
   

Offline Nutty

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Re: [IC] GMK Wise Wolf (GB Expected August 2021)
« Reply #115 on: Thu, 17 December 2020, 23:18:53 »
Excited to announce an NA vendor and GB slot have been secured. GB is currently expected for August 2021.
New kitting fixes and renders coming soon to address some issues and feedback. All kits except for the novelties will have some changes, most are related to 40's and hiragana kits.

Offline Oddstag

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Re: [IC] GMK Wise Wolf (GB Expected August 2021)
« Reply #116 on: Fri, 18 December 2020, 05:05:52 »
Excited to announce an NA vendor and GB slot have been secured. GB is currently expected for August 2021.
New kitting fixes and renders coming soon to address some issues and feedback. All kits except for the novelties will have some changes, most are related to 40's and hiragana kits.

Congrats on locking in a GB date! Wish it was sooner but isn't that always the way? Really impressed with the speed this kit has progressed and I'm 100% in.

Offline Xerpocalypse

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Re: [IC] GMK Wise Wolf (GB Expected August 2021)
« Reply #117 on: Fri, 18 December 2020, 10:13:08 »
Excited to announce an NA vendor and GB slot have been secured. GB is currently expected for August 2021.
New kitting fixes and renders coming soon to address some issues and feedback. All kits except for the novelties will have some changes, most are related to 40's and hiragana kits.

Congratulations!!
There is still a ways to go, but I'm really excited to see this come to fruition.

Offline punyeon

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Re: [IC] GMK Wise Wolf (GB Expected August 2021)
« Reply #118 on: Fri, 18 December 2020, 10:55:28 »
This look amazing! I'm a huge fan of the series, definitely looking forward to this set. The group buy date is so far! The only request I have is to make a Hiragana base kit along with the Latin base kit. Otherwise, amazing work!!

Offline Nutty

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Re: [IC] GMK Wise Wolf | GB Expected August 2021 (Kit updates)
« Reply #119 on: Fri, 18 December 2020, 22:00:55 »
Just made quite a few changes to the kitting. All the kit changes in the update log expect for the 40's overhaul.

Offline konstantin

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Re: [IC] GMK Wise Wolf | GB Expected August 2021 (Kit updates)
« Reply #120 on: Sat, 19 December 2020, 13:28:16 »
Just made quite a few changes to the kitting. All the kit changes in the update log expect for the 40's overhaul.

Nice. :D

Since you added 半角/全角, your hiragana should also get a R1 1u `~ー key to complete JIS support (which is what the former key is used for). At that point, you might as well include 6.25c and 7c spacebars in the kit and make it viable as a standalone purchase (e.g. for combining with other sets).

Your base, spacebars and 40% kits still have a few keys that have no practical or justifiable uses. Specifically:
  • second 1u Ctrl in base;
  • 1.75c space in spacebars;
  • second 1c space in spacebars;
  • 1.25c space in 40%.
These can be removed.

As for the 40% kit:

After further considerations and discussions with 40% community members, I think your current 40% kit is still too large and will likely have trouble reaching MOQ. Note that, in Oct and Nov 2020, five GMK sets had to cancel their similarly-sized or larger 40% kits mid-GB due to poor sales. The recommendation of the 40% community is to cut down on uncommon keys (1.75u Lock, 1.75c space) and merge other keys together to reduce kit size while not sacrificing compatibility (e.g. R1 Back, TabOut; second R4 Shift, EnterSend). Please see the following examples of recommended kits:
  • Minimal viable variant (recommended):
  • Slightly expanded variant:

Offline Xerpocalypse

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Re: [IC] GMK Wise Wolf | GB Expected August 2021 (Kit updates)
« Reply #121 on: Sat, 19 December 2020, 14:29:57 »
Since you added 半角/全角, your hiragana should also get a R1 1u `~ー key to complete JIS support (which is what the former key is used for). At that point, you might as well include 6.25c and 7c spacebars in the kit and make it viable as a standalone purchase (e.g. for combining with other sets).

I'm not sure if the tooling for that key exists as of right now. GMK's catalogue isn't public, either. If the tooling doesn't exist, the cost of making it will be factored into both the kit's MOQ and ultimately the cost of the kit for buyers.

Kit bloat such as adding spacebars to hiragana kits, on top of tab, on top of ISO support (since GMK JIS tooling is in its infancy), is how we get to $70+ Hiragana alphas kits. From what I've seen, mixing keysets is a pretty uncommon practice.

Adding spacebars would not truly benefit people who want to have the set on multiple boards either, since you still have to contend with juggling different modifier layouts. It seems like this is already relatively rare.

Your base, spacebars and 40% kits still have a few keys that have no practical or justifiable uses. Specifically:
  • second 1u Ctrl in base;
  • 1.75c space in spacebars;
  • second 1c space in spacebars;
  • 1.25c space in 40%.
These can be removed.

On the other hand, removing the additional 1c and 1.75c spacebars from a kit designed to affordably extend compatibility to less common layouts, when it will not appreciably affect the cost of the kit to do so, is asinine.

The kit is small in comparison to many spacebar kits, contains a single color of spacebar, and does not include doubleshot keys. It won't be expensive. It's better to have that extra compatibility in this case, especially when you consider price.

As far as 40s are concerned, I'm not an expert but I referred Nutty to someone who I trust in the 40s community for kitting advice, and the 1.25c space stayed. Min/maxing a kit like 40s seems like a good idea, but it's definitely something that would be better polled with a larger sample of 40s users.
« Last Edit: Sat, 19 December 2020, 15:10:04 by Xerpocalypse »

Re: [IC] GMK Wise Wolf | GB Expected August 2021 (Kit updates)
« Reply #122 on: Sat, 19 December 2020, 17:18:10 »
As far as 40s are concerned, I'm not an expert but I referred Nutty to someone who I trust in the 40s community for kitting advice, and the 1.25c space stayed. Min/maxing a kit like 40s seems like a good idea, but it's definitely something that would be better polled with a larger sample of 40s users.

Speaking as someone highly active in the 40s community, the 1.25u convex space is not a thing. We have been working really hard to trim down our kitting suggestions because 40s kits have been getting super bloated recently. Of course in a perfect world every size and profile <2u would be represented, however with MOQ and cost concerns I don't think 1.25u bar is a priority

Offline //gainsborough

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Re: [IC] GMK Wise Wolf | GB Expected August 2021 (Kit updates)
« Reply #123 on: Sat, 19 December 2020, 19:02:16 »
Good to have a GB date!  Any specific reason it's so far off?  Either way, I'll be ready when the time comes!

Offline konstantin

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Re: [IC] GMK Wise Wolf | GB Expected August 2021 (Kit updates)
« Reply #124 on: Sat, 19 December 2020, 20:11:39 »
[...]

Fairly long post ahead, but I hope this'll make a few things clearer, as well as give some insight on why I made the exact suggestions that I did. To be clear, I still stand behind them 100%.


Re: hiragana

I'm not sure if the tooling for that key exists as of right now. GMK's catalogue isn't public, either. If the tooling doesn't exist, the cost of making it will be factored into both the kit's MOQ and ultimately the cost of the kit for buyers.

The tooling in question does exist (otherwise I wouldn't be suggesting it). The mold was introduced in GMK Mecha-01, which ran in July. Some other sets that use it are: GMK Devoted (scheduled to run in February), GMK Mashu (scheduled to run in April), GMK Retrowave.

Along with `~ー, Mecha-01 also introduced the 半/全 mold. The primary reason for the addition of these two keys was providing minimal JIS layout support in sets with Japanese sublegends. Having one key without the other undermines this, hence my suggestion to include the tilde as well in Wise Wolf's hiragana kit. The other reason for having `~ー in the kit is that it lets you avoid having a duplicate sublegend (on these keys) if you decide to use the hiragana keys in an ISO configuration. You can find more about these setups in this summary.

It's worth noting that GMK βeta had the half-width/full-width toggle key, but didn't have the tilde with chōonpu in its base kit. Hiney decided not to include the tilde in the end because the kit was already very large, and the extra keys would only benefit a small demographic (ISO / basic JIS). However, the 半角/全角 key was kept because the whole kit was thematically based around JustSystems HiPro caps, in which the red width toggle key plays a prominent visual role. So in that sense, this key was more like a novelty in βeta. However, in general, the two keys should not be included one without the other.


Kit bloat such as adding spacebars to hiragana kits, on top of tab, on top of ISO support (since GMK JIS tooling is in its infancy), is how we get to $70+ Hiragana alphas kits. From what I've seen, mixing keysets is a pretty uncommon practice.

Sure, I agree. But if avoiding kit bloat was the goal, why was the 半角/全角 key added? It has no function or utility by itself, so it's a key that directly bloats the kit. Perhaps its intended purpose was to be a Japanese-looking novelty key without offering actual utility, like in βeta, but that doesn't make sense in this set.

If the goal is to avoid bloat in the hiragana kit, the R1 半角/全角 and R4 <>ろ keys should be removed — the kit works for ANSI and ISO just as well without them. You can go a step further and also remove mod-colored tilde and pipe. Go a step beyond that and you can also remove the extra B and homing keys (though that's probably pushing it too far).

The point I was trying to make with the spacebars remark (which you misinterpreted as my main suggestion; although that's partly my fault for not phrasing it better) is as follows:
If you're already making the kit large by adding these extra keys (primarily the half-width/full-width toggle one), you might as well go all the way and:
1) add `~ー such that the addition of the toggle key at least makes functional/practical sense; and
2) add spacebars, which are about equally as useful as the aforementioned keys — which, as you describe, is not very.
Otherwise, those extra keys shouldn't be included in the kit either. In fact, at this point I think you should just remove 半角/全角 and call it a day.


By the way, I just noticed that the R3 \|む key in the hiragana kit is missing its sublegend in the top-right corner. @Nutty, you should probably fix that.


Re: extra spacekeys

On the other hand, removing the additional 1c and 1.75c spacebars from a kit designed to affordably extend compatibility to less common layouts, when it will not appreciably affect the cost of the kit to do so, is asinine.

The kit is small in comparison to many spacebar kits, contains a single color of spacebar, and does not include doubleshot keys. It won't be expensive. It's better to have that extra compatibility in this case, especially when you consider price.

As far as I'm aware, all layouts which use 1.75c and 2 1c spaces are 40% layouts. Let's be specific here: 1.75c is used by Vortex Core, JD40, JD45, Prime_L; and 2 1c is used by various 40% ortho boards. Those layouts all require the 40% kit, which already includes 2 1c and 1.75c (as well as a second R4 1.75u key in the form of Lock). Therefore, including these keys in spacebars is quite unnecessary.

If you are aware of any 60% or larger boards that use these keys, please let me know. In that case, keeping these keys might be worth considering if the use case is common enough (though at that point I think I would have heard about it). Otherwise, the keys are dead weight and can be removed without significantly sacrificing compatibility for anyone.

For this exact reason, if you take a look at spacebars kits that ran over the past year, you'll notice that fewer and fewer of them included those keys as time went on. We're currently at the point where almost no new sets do it (1/13 of currently running sets have them; 0/10 if you consider just GMK). This is good, because it shows that over time kits have gotten more optimized. However, that's not to say that 1.75c can't become a thing again in the future if a board that uses it becomes really popular (we're kind of seeing that happen with 1.5u Shift now). But for now, it's best to avoid it because there simple isn't enough boards/demand for it.

By the way, even if you consider boards such as JD40/JD45 (which use 2 1.75c bars but are very uncommon nowadays) and ortho setups with 4 1c (also vanishingly rare), where extra 1.75c and 1c spaces could actually come in handy, your “affordably extend compatibility” argument still doesn't make sense — there is nothing affordable about needing to buy base + 40% + spacebars to cover your board. And, indeed, if you ask around among 40% users (which I have), almost no one does this.


As far as 40s are concerned, I'm not an expert but I referred Nutty to someone who I trust in the 40s community for kitting advice, and the 1.25c space stayed. Min/maxing a kit like 40s seems like a good idea, but it's definitely something that would be better polled with a larger sample of 40s users.

1.25c is not a thing in 40s, though, as anybody in the 40% community with an active interest in kitting will be able to tell you. To quote one 40s user: “1.25u space is pretty much relegated to an optionally smaller bar on boards which use a 1.5u space. Such as on Corne.” However, in those cases, you actually need two 1.25c keys, not one; and these layouts are pretty rare to boot, so these two keys are not worth including most of the time (especially so in a GMK kit).

I suspect that the idea behind keeping 1.25c in the kit was to allow for coverage of Alice and split 6.25u layouts with the 40% kit. This is common practice in sets that include alpha-colored spacekeys in the 40% kit, and accent-colored spacekeys in the spacebars kit (in those cases, the 40s kit is often dubbed “Extensions”). However, given the fact that in Wise Wolf spacekeys in both kits are alpha-colored; and the fact that the spacebars kit is, as you said, small and cheap; there is no incentive for Alice or split 6.25u users to buy the 40% kit over the spacebars kit to get the keys they need. Therefore, there is no reason to include 1.25c in 40s either.

Offline CookieFlow

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Re: [IC] GMK Wise Wolf | GB Expected August 2021 (Kit updates)
« Reply #125 on: Sat, 19 December 2020, 20:17:54 »
August is far away, but I guess GMK is overbooked at the moment, but happy that this set is confirmed.

Hoping for a beautiful Rama
   

Offline Nutty

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Re: [IC] GMK Wise Wolf | GB Expected August 2021 (Kit updates)
« Reply #126 on: Sun, 20 December 2020, 16:05:40 »
Render man is on vacation so I will have updated kit renders after the holidays. Hiragana will have the fix with the missing and the addition of the `~ー key. Spacebars will have the additional 1u c and the 1.75u c key removed. I changed the 40's kit to the min-max scheme. With these upcoming changes I hope to have solved most kitting issues.

Offline 4Holo

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Re: [IC] GMK Wise Wolf | GB Expected August 2021 (Kit updates)
« Reply #127 on: Sun, 20 December 2020, 19:51:57 »
Hi nutty, I wanted yo express my opinion and my other friends opinion. First I'd like to say thank you for making this set happen as an holo fan i approve. So far everything of the colors is on point. I've initinally worked on an set similar to this one before but couldn't come up with my own deskmats and also novelties. Im not the best drawer out there. So far the colors are almosr similar to the project I was working on but I'd like to add one final touch. I really would love to see if it's possible to have another pqair of alpha keys with the brown sublegends instead of red. I know that me and my friend have been looking to see if thats an possibility for you. As far an third deskmat something that would look more minilastic with just the silver coins, wheat and apple could also work.

Offline Nutty

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Re: [IC] GMK Wise Wolf | GB Expected August 2021 (Kit updates)
« Reply #128 on: Sun, 03 January 2021, 22:35:52 »
I just wanted to give you a little update. I hope you all had a nice holiday season. I will be getting back to work on this set now.
There is currently a keyboard sleeve collab in the works, will share more information once sample is received.
Will start reaching out for additional potential collabs.
Changes to kits coming soon, renderman was also on vacation.
Stay tuned for more and Happy New Year!

Offline Nutty

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Re: [IC] GMK Wise Wolf | GB Expected August 2021 (Kits Finalizing)
« Reply #129 on: Mon, 04 January 2021, 17:56:21 »
Kit updates are in. Requesting for pricing now. The only thing that I can think of that could potentially change in kitting is instead of offering ISO-UK I may change to generic ISO, however my preference is keeping ISO-UK.

I just noticed that my new renders seem a bit inconsistent. As compared to the board renders there is a difference and looks more orange than brown making it feel less natural. I will try to get this fixed up. When compared to my RAL deck, the new renders are more orange.

Edit: Fixed the colors to be more accurate.
« Last Edit: Mon, 04 January 2021, 21:40:02 by Nutty »

Offline NoteMakoti

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Re: [IC] GMK Wise Wolf | GB Expected August 2021 (Kits Finalizing)
« Reply #130 on: Mon, 04 January 2021, 20:11:31 »
Hiragana has its own base kit now, nice.

Offline CookieFlow

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Re: [IC] GMK Wise Wolf | GB Expected August 2021 (Kits Finalizing)
« Reply #131 on: Mon, 04 January 2021, 21:00:23 »
Oh awesome, so happy to see a base Hiragana kit <3
   

Offline Oddstag

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Re: [IC] GMK Wise Wolf | GB Expected August 2021 (Kits Finalizing)
« Reply #132 on: Tue, 05 January 2021, 03:45:42 »
Kit updates are in. Requesting for pricing now. The only thing that I can think of that could potentially change in kitting is instead of offering ISO-UK I may change to generic ISO, however my preference is keeping ISO-UK.

I just noticed that my new renders seem a bit inconsistent. As compared to the board renders there is a difference and looks more orange than brown making it feel less natural. I will try to get this fixed up. When compared to my RAL deck, the new renders are more orange.

Edit: Fixed the colors to be more accurate.

Awesome stuff! For what it's worth my vote would be to keep ISO-UK.

Offline lush_bunny

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Re: [IC] GMK Wise Wolf | GB Expected August 2021 (Kits Finalizing)
« Reply #133 on: Sat, 09 January 2021, 18:12:09 »
August 2021? More than enough time to save up.

Offline hectellian

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Re: [IC] GMK Wise Wolf | GB Expected August 2021 (Kits Finalizing)
« Reply #134 on: Wed, 13 January 2021, 12:19:31 »
time to simp holo

Offline Asphroxia

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Re: [IC] GMK Wise Wolf | GB Expected August 2021 (Kits Finalizing)
« Reply #135 on: Mon, 25 January 2021, 17:43:30 »
Been tempted for a while to get into this hobby now, but after seeing this kit I was totally convinced and in love.
Thank you for making this great piece!
I'll just have to find a suitable board for it now haha!
I'm open to suggestions since everything is new to me, but I think I do prefer the low profile/floaty keys look.

Offline Nutty

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Re: [IC] GMK Wise Wolf | GB Expected August 2021 (Kits Finalizing)
« Reply #136 on: Wed, 10 February 2021, 16:20:32 »
Sample unit for keyboard sleeve collab with Mechfashion has arrived.
« Last Edit: Wed, 10 February 2021, 16:24:11 by Nutty »

Offline Nutty

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Re: [IC] GMK Wise Wolf
« Reply #137 on: Wed, 10 February 2021, 16:27:04 »
To Do:
Feedback
Deskmats
Collab/Artisan
Get Vendor
Pricing
Dates
GB


Update Log:
11/4/2020 - Fixed some kitting issues. In base kit removed a set of Pg Up and Pg Dn. Added Yen sign to hiragana kit, added mod color |\, and added extra tab. Added 1.75u concave in spacebars kit. Added 1.25 tab in the 40% kit.
11/14/2020 - Gave an update to the vendors/proxies so far.
11/17/2020 - Added the deskmat mat design Bountiful Harvest.
11/20/2020 - Added the deskmat mat design Quiet Tavern.
11/21/2020 - Got a proxy/vendor for the Southeast Asia region.
12/01/2020 - Made some changes with the novelties. Removed some keys to cut cost while adding new designs for r4.
12/14/2020 - Update to novelties. Removed the wagon wheel, added pairs of 1u, 1.25u, and 1.5u. Included spacebars in 40's kit.
12/17/2020 - Got an NA vendor. Secured GB slot for August 2021.
12/18/2020 - Kit updates. Removed 4 from base kit. Added 半角/全角, |\む, and ><ろ. Changed the を and ー to full width. Added two 3u c to the spacebar kit. A lot of revisions to 40's kit.
1/4/2021 - Kit updates. On base kits removed extra 1u Ctrl, added r3 PgUp and r4 PgDn. Changed Hiragana alt alpha kit to a Hiragana base kit. On Hiragana kit fixed missing on r3 \| and added r1 1u `~ー. On spacebars kit added accent color spacebars in 6.25u and 7u. 40's kits minimized. Additional thanks to konstantin and others in the 40's discord for this break down of coverage.
2/10/2021 - Still working on kitting, but in order to reach projected pricing ISO-UK will be getting switched for generic ISO. Collab for keyboard sleeves announced with Mechfashion.

I keep messing up and pressing reply instead of modify.
« Last Edit: Wed, 10 February 2021, 16:32:27 by Nutty »

Offline Oddstag

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Re: [IC] GMK Wise Wolf | GB 9/21 | Collab Announced
« Reply #138 on: Thu, 11 February 2021, 03:19:28 »
Thanks for the update. Bummed about losing UK ISO, no chance of a return or a separate kit?

Offline the_lazy_bear

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Re: [IC] GMK Wise Wolf | GB 8/21 | Collab Announced
« Reply #139 on: Thu, 11 February 2021, 15:07:18 »
Super interested in this! Would it be possible to get more of the novelties in Emperor Cherry Red? :)
« Last Edit: Tue, 02 March 2021, 14:00:36 by the_lazy_bear »

Offline Hollow

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Re: [IC] GMK Wise Wolf | GB 9/21 | Collab Announced
« Reply #140 on: Thu, 18 February 2021, 08:38:05 »
Love it! cant wait for your announcement for the collab :D