Author Topic: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO  (Read 638454 times)

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Offline Retrete

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #850 on: Mon, 03 June 2013, 03:53:21 »
Im testing it with original kevex.sc (nothing mapped) and the HID listen, and it reports nothing  :confused:

Offline Soarer

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #851 on: Mon, 03 June 2013, 06:38:48 »
You'll need to change the line that starts 'strobe PC7' to start 'strobe PF7', or whichever pin you use.

Offline Retrete

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #852 on: Mon, 03 June 2013, 12:14:16 »
Oh, I feel 100% retard  :D

Thanks!Working again

Offline Soarer

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #853 on: Mon, 03 June 2013, 13:52:40 »
Good!

(Not the retard part, the working again part)!

Offline Retrete

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #854 on: Mon, 03 June 2013, 19:40:05 »
Soarer, do you know If the Model M 122 key which uses an (rj45?) connector could be  teensied?
Some pics;



Also, If you want one, its yours  :cool: .

 BUT,you have to pay the shipment, or come to Madrid  :p

Offline Soarer

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #855 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 07:42:35 »
Thanks :D But actually I already have one! It works fine through my converter - the signals and codes are the same as for the 122-key with the 240 degree DIN connector. The pinout details are in the OP and the docs - you could make an adapter, replace the connector, or just wire it direct to the Teensy :cool:

Offline Retrete

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #856 on: Tue, 11 June 2013, 21:41:48 »
I will "waste" the teensy with a 1986 Ibm model F 122key.
The strange thing is that I don't find anything related to his code number,


And the other part that no one mention;


It uses this type of connection;


Any ideas?
Thanks in adavance!

Offline Soarer

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #857 on: Wed, 12 June 2013, 15:40:27 »
Hmm... looks like an M to me, since it has a white underside. The last couple of digits of the model number are usually what varies depending on the key legends for different countries - try searching for 1390401 instead.

DIP switches, or jumpers on some, are only used to set the keyboard ID, and don't affect the function at all.

Everything I've seen with that connector speaks scan code set 3, and sends a unique code for each key :D

Offline connection

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #858 on: Wed, 12 June 2013, 18:00:03 »
Hello,
Thanks for this great piece of software! I have 15 old terminal Model M:s, and I've now converted most of them into USB by gluing Teensies inside the keyboards, and placing the mini USB connector directly at the back of the keyboard.

However, I have encountered a problem using the full USB HID mode in Linux, where everything works great, except for the delete key, that doesn't repeat when being held down. In hid_listen everything looks as it should, but somewhere along the way the key repeat doesn't work. I'm not sure if it's a bug in the converter software, in the Teensy hardware, or in the Linux kernel. Everything works fine using the USB boot mode, but as the default is to use the HID mode when available, it would be nice to get some hint on where the fault lies.

When running
Code: [Select]
/lib64/udev/keymap -i /dev/input/event2 on a Gentoo machine with 3.9.4 vanilla Linux kernel, hidraw/hid-generic driver and udev-204, i get this message when pressing delete:
Code: [Select]
driver did not send SYN event in between key events; previous event:
scan code: 0x7004C   key code: delete

All other keys work fine, without any error output, and everything works fine in the USB boot mode in Linux, and also in Windows and OSX. For Windows and OSX, I'm however a bit unsure whether they use the boot mode, or the full HID mode. The other USB keyboards that I tried in Linux seemed to use the boot mode.

Offline Soarer

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #859 on: Wed, 12 June 2013, 18:43:49 »
Oh yeah... I'm seeing that on Linux Mint 14 MATE 32-bit as well. Maybe it is another Linux bug! :p

Generally BIOSs use boot mode and OSs use full mode, which holds true for Windows, Linux and OS-X.
PS3 just pretends to have a HID stack :'(

The last Linux bug I had to workaround was its handling of the backslash and europe_1 codes. This seems somewhat similiar, since whenever I press some key while delete is held, I also get a delete!

But which other code is it confused with this time? There's no obvious candidate, is there?

Offline Retrete

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #860 on: Wed, 12 June 2013, 20:07:43 »
Hmm... looks like an M to me, since it has a white underside. The last couple of digits of the model number are usually what varies depending on the key legends for different countries - try searching for 1390401 instead.

DIP switches, or jumpers on some, are only used to set the keyboard ID, and don't affect the function at all.

Everything I've seen with that connector speaks scan code set 3, and sends a unique code for each key :D

Today I opened it and this is what I've found, no model F?  :eek:
http://imgur.com/a/jtYz1

The rarest model M is mine  :p

Offline Soarer

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #861 on: Wed, 12 June 2013, 20:47:42 »
Definitely an M - you can see the membrane! IBM made two versions of the early 122-keys (with square label and 'hat' keys in alt and ctrl positions) -  some F, some M. The easiest way to tell them apart is the colour underneath - black metal for F, white plastic for M. They look identical from above :-\

Offline Soarer

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #862 on: Wed, 12 June 2013, 22:09:20 »
But which other code is it confused with this time? There's no obvious candidate, is there?

Ah-ha! Someone has made exactly the same mistake again :'(

The boot mode handling is fine for Delete - there's only one entry in that table with the code 111, at position 0x4C (the HID code for Delete).

Since v3.0, the full mode has two entries with code 111, the other is 'Clear' (HID code 0x9C). v2.6.39 didn't have that entry.

Not sure how Linux should be fixed, but certainly the current method of combining two input codes to one event code is insufficient. It could either pass unique event codes to the next stage, or handle the combination with specific code at the driver level - it just needs to be an 'or' of the keys, I think, but in the driver doesn't seem to be the right place to do it!

I guess I'll just have to work round it again, by removing the 'Clear' entry from my NKRO report :mad:
« Last Edit: Wed, 12 June 2013, 22:23:10 by Soarer »

Offline connection

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #863 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 14:21:24 »
Yes, that actually seems to be a bug in the kernel. If a keyboard has a Clear key, it should give a separate keycode from Delete all the way to the userland. If a buggy keyboard sends Clear instead of Delete, it's that keyboard that should be fixed, and not replacing the standard code in the kernel to make it work. To me, this sounds like it might be worth sending in a kernel bug report, although those always take a long time to get fixed in cases like this.

I looked into the rest of the kernel translation table, and compared to Microsoft's Microsoft's HID code list, and I found out that the kernel even has three HID codes that translates to 111: 4C (Delete), 9C (Clear), and D8 (Reserved). There's also some other duplicates, that translate reserved keycodes to standard ones, like 7E/F4 -> 136, 7F/EF -> 113, 80/ED -> 115, and 81/EE -> 114. There's also the 31/32 -> 43 (\ / Europe 1), that you mentioned that you've fixed before, where the kernel behavior however might be correct, as they had the same keycodes in PS/2.

On the other hand; even though it seems wrong to do translations like this in the kernel for standard keyboards, a really large keyboard, with more than 255(?) keys, could in theory have two keys that would translate to the same keycode with the standard driver, and where the users then could add a custom kernel driver to get the full functionality. For these cases, this kind of behavior from the kernel driver might come up in more cases in the future. I don't know how you send your keypresses and then clear them, when they're not pushed down any longer, but it might be worth checking if you could change your code to assume that the host is "buggy" like this for all the keys.

Offline Soarer

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #864 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 16:06:24 »
My converter's NKRO report just has a bit for each HID code, in numeric order. So as the driver scans through it, it first finds the pressed 'Delete' code and sends an event, then finds the unpressed 'Clear' code and sends another event. Clearly this is unexpected to some other bit of code, which complains about the lack of SYN! (Whatever that is...).

So the only way to work around it is to make my converter only send one of the codes that have duplicated event codes :(  It's no great loss, but key codes that are otherwise ignored by OSs can be handy if you want to trigger some macro software with them.

The reserved codes don't cause a problem, because my converter doesn't try to send them anyway. No idea what device those mappings were put in for... the change was so long ago that it predates a big code reorg in 2006!

Fixing it within the driver level would at least keep the fix fairly self-contained, with less chance of unintended consequences. Browsing around the code, I can't figure out why it is sending an event for the Clear code, since it hasn't changed... surely an event should only be generated when the state of something changes?! hid_input_field seems to be where state changes are turned into events, calling hid_process_event and then hid_input_event. I dunno though!

Offline Soarer

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #865 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 18:29:16 »
v1.12 added to the first post, which should make Delete work correctly again on v3.x Linux kernels :D

Offline connection

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #866 on: Fri, 14 June 2013, 08:53:52 »
I've upgraded to v1.12 now, and now the delete repeating works as supposed to, and I haven't noticed any weird side effects. Thanks!

What would happen with your code now if the kernel developers suddenly decides to create even more duplicated event codes of some other key (like adding an extra Enter key code as A0/Out)?

The missing SYN error might have come from the driver, and not from your the data that the converter transfers. The keymap tool is an extra feature in udev for parsing the kernel driver output. A comment about the SYN parsing from the code:
Code: [Select]
/* Drivers usually send the scan code first, then the key code,
 * then a SYN. Some drivers (like thinkpad_acpi) send the key
 * code first, and some drivers might not send SYN events, so
 * keep a robust state machine which can deal with any of those
 */

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #867 on: Fri, 14 June 2013, 09:45:40 »
v1.12 added to the first post, which should make Delete work correctly again on v3.x Linux kernels :D

I think I am running v1.1 from several months ago, are there important changes recently?
"I never understood wind. I know windmills very much, I have studied it better than anybody. I know it is very expensive. They are made in China and Germany mostly, very few made here, almost none, but they are manufactured, tremendous — if you are into this — tremendous fumes and gases are spewing into the atmosphere. You know we have a world, right? So the world is tiny compared to the universe. So tremendous, tremendous amount of fumes and everything. You talk about the carbon footprint, fumes are spewing into the air, right spewing, whether it is China or Germany, is going into the air.
A windmill will kill many bald eagles. After a certain number, they make you turn the windmill off, that is true. By the way, they make you turn it off. And yet, if you killed one, they put you in jail. That is OK. But why is it OK for windmills to destroy the bird population?"
- Donald Trump - Turning Point USA speech – 2019-12-22

Offline Soarer

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #868 on: Fri, 14 June 2013, 09:48:44 »
I've upgraded to v1.12 now, and now the delete repeating works as supposed to, and I haven't noticed any weird side effects. Thanks!
Great!

What would happen with your code now if the kernel developers suddenly decides to create even more duplicated event codes of some other key (like adding an extra Enter key code as A0/Out)?
I'd have to remove Out from the report as well :( It's a pain because each one of these grows the descriptor by 22 bytes, which might cause its own problem at some point. I'll just have to keep an eye on that table for now, until I can think of a good way to phrase a bug report such that it gets some action (if they see it as just one DIY project that's acting up, it won't get fixed!).

The missing SYN error might have come from the driver, and not from your the data that the converter transfers. The keymap tool is an extra feature in udev for parsing the kernel driver output. A comment about the SYN parsing from the code:
Code: [Select]
/* Drivers usually send the scan code first, then the key code,
 * then a SYN. Some drivers (like thinkpad_acpi) send the key
 * code first, and some drivers might not send SYN events, so
 * keep a robust state machine which can deal with any of those
 */
I see, so the SYN error is clearly secondary. It's still a useful flag that things have gone wrong though, since the HID keyboard driver normally sends it. Tracking down the 'if' that stops it being sent might give another clue!

Hmm. There might be multiple ways to fix the problem... I'm still not sure exactly what the problem is though, apart from being related to those duplicated codes. I think I might have been wrong about where state changes are converted to events - the bits of my report are flagged as 'variable', which appears to be handled differently (with no obvious comparison to previous state in hid_input_field). Maybe it's even after the lookup table is used, which would make sense given the observed behaviour.

Offline Soarer

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #869 on: Fri, 14 June 2013, 09:52:13 »
v1.12 added to the first post, which should make Delete work correctly again on v3.x Linux kernels :D

I think I am running v1.1 from several months ago, are there important changes recently?


Since you're not running Linux, not using an RT keyboard, and don't have any problems with your BIOS - I'd say stick with v1.1 :D

Offline poxeclipse

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #870 on: Sun, 16 June 2013, 09:16:26 »
Question:
Is it possible to transplant the electronics part of a Model F which has a known protocol to a Model F with an old protocol ?
For instance, to transplant from an F-122, or XT, to a 3178 Model F.

Offline Soarer

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #871 on: Sun, 16 June 2013, 14:54:02 »
I really don't know!

The XT controller is built onto the main PCB, so you'd have to saw it off!

A 122-key F controller might be a better bet, BUT...

The replacement would have to have at least as many strobes (columns) AND at least as many senses (rows) as the original.

There's at least two kinds of capacitive sensing chip - one with 4 channels and one with 8. The 122 has the 8-channel version, I've no idea what the 3178 has. The ones that use the 4-channel sense have twice as many strobes.

The ROM on the replacement would need to output a code for each key. (The 122-key can output a code for all (or all but one?) of its key positions, so unlikely to be a problem with that one).

Most IBM controller ROMs have a table that adjusts the sensitivity of the sensing for each key - these wouldn't necessarily be the same for different keyboards, in fact most likely different. So it might be unreliable.

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #872 on: Fri, 05 July 2013, 09:51:56 »
I'm back. I have been worrying with this problem off and on for at least 6 months. I have a couple of XTs that I want to test and sell, but they won't perform for me.

I have an outboard Teensy with a variety of plugs and adapters XT-to-AT then AT-to-PS2, PS2 hard-wired to the Teensy.

The keyboards act dead and do not register anything, except when I plug everything up, start hid_listen, and hot-plug the USB I get this:

then nothing else.

What is the 05 error, and is it a wiring mix-up? Thanks!
"I never understood wind. I know windmills very much, I have studied it better than anybody. I know it is very expensive. They are made in China and Germany mostly, very few made here, almost none, but they are manufactured, tremendous — if you are into this — tremendous fumes and gases are spewing into the atmosphere. You know we have a world, right? So the world is tiny compared to the universe. So tremendous, tremendous amount of fumes and everything. You talk about the carbon footprint, fumes are spewing into the air, right spewing, whether it is China or Germany, is going into the air.
A windmill will kill many bald eagles. After a certain number, they make you turn the windmill off, that is true. By the way, they make you turn it off. And yet, if you killed one, they put you in jail. That is OK. But why is it OK for windmills to destroy the bird population?"
- Donald Trump - Turning Point USA speech – 2019-12-22

Offline Soarer

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #873 on: Fri, 05 July 2013, 10:18:10 »
XT-to-AT? They're the same!

Normally I'd say clock and data swapped for R05, but then you'd get errors with each key press too.

Does the converter work OK with a PS/2 keyboard?

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #874 on: Fri, 05 July 2013, 14:26:38 »
Soarer, as always, you da man.

Even when you don't solve my problems directly, you set me on the path to finding and fixing them myself.

There was one problem in my wiring, as I had added pull-up resistors after the fact, and one of those legs was wrong.

But the real underlying problem was a bad PS2 socket! My female pigtail to the Teensy was the end of a male-female PS2 extension cord which I had chopped off and attached to the Teensy. Apparently, at least one of the contacts inside was bad and was hardly, if ever, making contact with the pin from the male plug on the keyboard cable. I have soldered a straight (sewing) pin onto one probe of my tester, so it was probably going in deep enough, while the proper pin was not.

I found a female AT socket and pigtail from an old AT-to-PS2 connector (you were right of course, I listed too many connections in my earlier post - looking at the snakepit on my desk is confusing) and took that to the Teensy.

That worked and so did both of the XTs. Since I will probably not need a female PS2 pigtail to the Teensy anyway, I will leave it with the female AT socket. I have enough adapters to get by, although I have not yet built a female-RJ45-to-male-AT yet.

Thank you, sincerely, as always! Harry
« Last Edit: Fri, 05 July 2013, 14:34:48 by fohat.digs »
"I never understood wind. I know windmills very much, I have studied it better than anybody. I know it is very expensive. They are made in China and Germany mostly, very few made here, almost none, but they are manufactured, tremendous — if you are into this — tremendous fumes and gases are spewing into the atmosphere. You know we have a world, right? So the world is tiny compared to the universe. So tremendous, tremendous amount of fumes and everything. You talk about the carbon footprint, fumes are spewing into the air, right spewing, whether it is China or Germany, is going into the air.
A windmill will kill many bald eagles. After a certain number, they make you turn the windmill off, that is true. By the way, they make you turn it off. And yet, if you killed one, they put you in jail. That is OK. But why is it OK for windmills to destroy the bird population?"
- Donald Trump - Turning Point USA speech – 2019-12-22

Offline Soarer

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #875 on: Fri, 05 July 2013, 17:11:33 »
Ah, good! That's just bad luck with that connector... would've been tough for me to figure that one out remotely, so I'm glad you did!

Offline finaltheorem

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #876 on: Sat, 13 July 2013, 23:51:18 »
Hi Soarer, and everyone.  Just wanted to say thank you for putting this out for everyone to use :)  Very useful, and much easier than someone lacking experience with such things might assume.  I just finished putting together a "quick and dirty" implementation of Soarer's tool and I'm really a complete newb when it comes to wiring/soldering.  It worked first try  :D  I've got my inexpensive terminal keyboard hooked up to the Teensy 2.0 now and it's working great!
28094-0
Using:
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Collection:
2 IBM Model M terminal boards (1392595)  |  Unicomp 101, Black w/Black Blanks  |  IBM XT Model F  |  SIIG Minitouch, black vinyl dye  |  7 Dell AT101Ws  |  Coolermaster QFR w/Blues - gifted
In the mail:
Realforce 87U Tenkeyless 55g (Black)  |  IBM AT Model F  |  Leopold FC660C (Whenever EK gets them in stock)

Offline Soarer

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #877 on: Mon, 15 July 2013, 06:51:51 »
Excellent... heatshrink is a nice touch! :D

One thing: the blue wire you've got going to PB7 should go to ground instead, it's the shield for the cable. (Actually, it needn't be connected at all usually, the other ground is used to to ground the metal parts inside the case).

Offline finaltheorem

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #878 on: Mon, 15 July 2013, 08:09:45 »
Excellent... heatshrink is a nice touch! :D

One thing: the blue wire you've got going to PB7 should go to ground instead, it's the shield for the cable. (Actually, it needn't be connected at all usually, the other ground is used to to ground the metal parts inside the case).

Ahh, thanks for information!  I was confused about that one since the wire was about twice as thick as the rest.  At least I didn't burn up the teensy by incorrectly guessing where it should go. 

I've got a nicer copy of this board (with all the keycaps) and I don't want to lop the connector off that one.  I'm going to use a keystone jack to convert RJ-45 to PS/2 male, so I'll make sure I splice those two (the white ground and black ground) together to the ground. 

Thanks again  ;D
« Last Edit: Mon, 15 July 2013, 09:33:20 by Soarer »
Using:
IBM Model M (1396790)  |  IBM XT Model F (at work)
Collection:
2 IBM Model M terminal boards (1392595)  |  Unicomp 101, Black w/Black Blanks  |  IBM XT Model F  |  SIIG Minitouch, black vinyl dye  |  7 Dell AT101Ws  |  Coolermaster QFR w/Blues - gifted
In the mail:
Realforce 87U Tenkeyless 55g (Black)  |  IBM AT Model F  |  Leopold FC660C (Whenever EK gets them in stock)

Offline Retrete

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #879 on: Mon, 15 July 2013, 08:38:59 »
Hi! A few questions before I teensy the 122 M;

Is the red circle a ground connection?

I'm planning to install the teensy inside the case (plastic) , could I just glue it?
Thanks in advance!


Offline Soarer

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #880 on: Mon, 15 July 2013, 09:44:24 »
Yup, that's a ground connection. There's clearly a PCB trace between that and the ground on the connector though, so there's no need to connect both!

Hot glue might work OK and still be removable without damaging the Teensy. Or double-sided sticky foam tape. Or maybe there's somewhere you could cable-tie the Teensy to?

Offline Retrete

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #881 on: Mon, 15 July 2013, 12:15:37 »
Before trying to install it, where should I connect each?

Thanks again soarer

Offline Soarer

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #882 on: Mon, 15 July 2013, 14:53:47 »
From fohat's crib sheet...



So like this...


Offline fohat.digs

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #883 on: Mon, 15 July 2013, 16:20:30 »
From fohat's crib sheet...

What! I thought that I had gotten that from you!
"I never understood wind. I know windmills very much, I have studied it better than anybody. I know it is very expensive. They are made in China and Germany mostly, very few made here, almost none, but they are manufactured, tremendous — if you are into this — tremendous fumes and gases are spewing into the atmosphere. You know we have a world, right? So the world is tiny compared to the universe. So tremendous, tremendous amount of fumes and everything. You talk about the carbon footprint, fumes are spewing into the air, right spewing, whether it is China or Germany, is going into the air.
A windmill will kill many bald eagles. After a certain number, they make you turn the windmill off, that is true. By the way, they make you turn it off. And yet, if you killed one, they put you in jail. That is OK. But why is it OK for windmills to destroy the bird population?"
- Donald Trump - Turning Point USA speech – 2019-12-22

Offline Soarer

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #884 on: Mon, 15 July 2013, 16:27:26 »
From fohat's crib sheet...

What! I thought that I had gotten that from you!


The pic of the label could well be mine, but not the other - easier to understand - diagram :D

Offline Glod

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #885 on: Mon, 15 July 2013, 19:25:36 »
another satisfied customer!, this is extremely easy to assemble, especially considering i am just doing ps/2


here is my sad attempt at making a minimalist converter for ps/2. used the female end of a ps/2 extension cable.







it is ugly but eh it works so i am not complaining


Offline finaltheorem

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #886 on: Thu, 18 July 2013, 11:28:15 »
I’m afraid I may have done something a bit stupid while trying to restore a badly corroded IBM 5150 XT board.  I separated the front and rear plates that sandwich the PCB, cleaned the corrosion off with sandpaper, then spray painted both the front and back plates (including the side of the rear plate that contacts the PCB).  I used silver paint which presumably has metal flakes in it, in case that’s relevant. The piece of foam between the front plate and the switch barrels was badly degraded, and when I washed it (to get rid of a musty odor) I believe it may have lost some of its density/thickness. 

Now when I plug it into the converter I get no output from typing on AquaKeyTest.  HID_listen shows no output when pressing most keys, but does give error codes (r00 or r80) when pressing some keys on the bottom row.  When I pick up the PCB housing I get a continuous stream of error codes, with occasional (seemingly valid) key codes mixed in.  Despite these valid codes being mixed in with the error codes, no key presses register while this is happening.

I know the board worked before I attempted this “restoration” because I tested every key beforehand.  Also, I have a second identical board that I haven’t taken apart yet which still works fine with the converter.  Now, I’m stuck wondering what I’ve done to screw this up.  Does anyone know whether these symptoms could be caused by the foam layer being too thin, or is it more likely I shouldn’t have painted the back plate?  I know it’s not related to Soarer’s converter, but for some reason I thought this might be a good place to ask.
Using:
IBM Model M (1396790)  |  IBM XT Model F (at work)
Collection:
2 IBM Model M terminal boards (1392595)  |  Unicomp 101, Black w/Black Blanks  |  IBM XT Model F  |  SIIG Minitouch, black vinyl dye  |  7 Dell AT101Ws  |  Coolermaster QFR w/Blues - gifted
In the mail:
Realforce 87U Tenkeyless 55g (Black)  |  IBM AT Model F  |  Leopold FC660C (Whenever EK gets them in stock)

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #887 on: Thu, 18 July 2013, 12:28:51 »
I am sorry, I guess that I did not answer your previous question quickly enough.

The "foam mat" has a foam side and a rubber "skin" side I would call it. The foam deteriorates and falls off, leaving a very thin skin.

I have re-used partially deteriorated thin ones which worked OK, but, unlike the M, that foam mat is an actual "bedding" material that helps hold the barrels (aka chimneys) in place in both directions. However, I doubt that is enough to keep it from working at all. You may be right about the paint making some sort of electrical interference.

My recommendation is to cut a new foam pad, you will need that for sure. If that doesn't fix it, strip the paint from the inside of the plate.
"I never understood wind. I know windmills very much, I have studied it better than anybody. I know it is very expensive. They are made in China and Germany mostly, very few made here, almost none, but they are manufactured, tremendous — if you are into this — tremendous fumes and gases are spewing into the atmosphere. You know we have a world, right? So the world is tiny compared to the universe. So tremendous, tremendous amount of fumes and everything. You talk about the carbon footprint, fumes are spewing into the air, right spewing, whether it is China or Germany, is going into the air.
A windmill will kill many bald eagles. After a certain number, they make you turn the windmill off, that is true. By the way, they make you turn it off. And yet, if you killed one, they put you in jail. That is OK. But why is it OK for windmills to destroy the bird population?"
- Donald Trump - Turning Point USA speech – 2019-12-22

Offline Retrete

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #888 on: Thu, 18 July 2013, 16:13:52 »
122 M works nice! I'll post some pics in a few days, right now I'm using a standar mini usb cable and this keyboard deserves a better one  :p

Thanks again Soarer! Remember that If you want an extra 122 M I have one here with your name  :cool:


 

Offline finaltheorem

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #889 on: Thu, 18 July 2013, 17:31:38 »
Thanks fohat, and no need to apologize, of course.  I always tend to venture off and make expensive mistakes – it’s how I learn  :))

In this case everything turned out well though. I figured I would try the simplest solution first and added a sheet of paper between the PCB and the rear plate that I painted and everything was working again.  I can’t say for sure whether this is a result of the paper or just some other little thing that was fixed by disassembly/reassembly, but in the future I’ll avoid painting the metal behind the PCB.  I'm saving the foam mat replacement for another day - I've had enough of disassembling and reassembling Model F's for a while.
Thanks for your help :)
Using:
IBM Model M (1396790)  |  IBM XT Model F (at work)
Collection:
2 IBM Model M terminal boards (1392595)  |  Unicomp 101, Black w/Black Blanks  |  IBM XT Model F  |  SIIG Minitouch, black vinyl dye  |  7 Dell AT101Ws  |  Coolermaster QFR w/Blues - gifted
In the mail:
Realforce 87U Tenkeyless 55g (Black)  |  IBM AT Model F  |  Leopold FC660C (Whenever EK gets them in stock)

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #890 on: Thu, 18 July 2013, 19:58:27 »
Thanks fohat, and no need to apologize, of course.  I always tend to venture off and make expensive mistakes – it’s how I learn  :))

In this case everything turned out well though. I figured I would try the simplest solution first and added a sheet of paper between the PCB and the rear plate that I painted and everything was working again.  I can’t say for sure whether this is a result of the paper or just some other little thing that was fixed by disassembly/reassembly, but in the future I’ll avoid painting the metal behind the PCB.  I'm saving the foam mat replacement for another day - I've had enough of disassembling and reassembling Model F's for a while.
Thanks for your help :)


The small ones are much easier to get back together than the big boys, but those clamps that I show in my guide make it A LOT easier.

A sheet of mylar or sturdy plastic would probably be preferable to paper as a separator.
"I never understood wind. I know windmills very much, I have studied it better than anybody. I know it is very expensive. They are made in China and Germany mostly, very few made here, almost none, but they are manufactured, tremendous — if you are into this — tremendous fumes and gases are spewing into the atmosphere. You know we have a world, right? So the world is tiny compared to the universe. So tremendous, tremendous amount of fumes and everything. You talk about the carbon footprint, fumes are spewing into the air, right spewing, whether it is China or Germany, is going into the air.
A windmill will kill many bald eagles. After a certain number, they make you turn the windmill off, that is true. By the way, they make you turn it off. And yet, if you killed one, they put you in jail. That is OK. But why is it OK for windmills to destroy the bird population?"
- Donald Trump - Turning Point USA speech – 2019-12-22

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #891 on: Sun, 21 July 2013, 19:11:43 »
I need a female connector for a terminal keyboard. I have built the outboard Teensy converter, and I have various adapters for different plugs, except for the terminal connection.

It seems to be the same configuration as an ethernet plug, I have an old Intel 10/100 socket on its pigtail that the plug from an M-122 seems to fit snugly. (I don't have an actual M-122 any more, but I have the cord, and I am just testing for continuity.) I can get a signal through for 5V and ground, but clock and data do not seem to be touching anything.

I know that the specific plug is 8P5C. Does that mean I need a specific female 8P5C? I was assuming that I could connect whichever of the 8 I needed and ignore the rest of them. Is that not true?

If not, what female connector do I need? I would prefer a beige or gray one on a pigtail, but, whatever.

Thanks!

edit   - the keyboard cord tested OK. I think that the 10/100 socket may be bad. some wires seem dead. more later
edit 2 - I had a similar socket (branded IBM) and the same thing happened - signal on 5V and ground but not data or clock

Are these connections prone to failure? Perhaps this is what I get for diving into the junk drawer.

edit 3 - this seems ludicrous, but I think I have a female-RJ45-to-USB-male connector. I could go from the back of the USB to a PS2 couldn't I? That would really be going around Robin Hood's barn, but might it work? Are 5V, ground, data, and clock always in the same place? Otherwise I could cut a USB cable and cross it over wherever I needed.

« Last Edit: Sun, 21 July 2013, 19:52:33 by fohat.digs »
"I never understood wind. I know windmills very much, I have studied it better than anybody. I know it is very expensive. They are made in China and Germany mostly, very few made here, almost none, but they are manufactured, tremendous — if you are into this — tremendous fumes and gases are spewing into the atmosphere. You know we have a world, right? So the world is tiny compared to the universe. So tremendous, tremendous amount of fumes and everything. You talk about the carbon footprint, fumes are spewing into the air, right spewing, whether it is China or Germany, is going into the air.
A windmill will kill many bald eagles. After a certain number, they make you turn the windmill off, that is true. By the way, they make you turn it off. And yet, if you killed one, they put you in jail. That is OK. But why is it OK for windmills to destroy the bird population?"
- Donald Trump - Turning Point USA speech – 2019-12-22

Offline Soarer

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #892 on: Sun, 21 July 2013, 19:48:46 »
Does it have 8 wires?

Quote
10BASE-T and 100BASE-TX only require two pairs to operate, located on pins 1 plus 2 and pins 3 plus 6.

Unfortunately, not the ones we want!

So, if it only has those four, you'd have to open it up and see if you can rewire it - it possibly has a fairly generic breakout PCB insde. If it can't be opened, buying an ethernet extension cable might be the easiest way to get a pigtail.

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #893 on: Sun, 21 July 2013, 19:58:44 »
Does it have 8 wires?

Quote
10BASE-T and 100BASE-TX only require two pairs to operate, located on pins 1 plus 2 and pins 3 plus 6.

Unfortunately, not the ones we want!

So, if it only has those four, you'd have to open it up and see if you can rewire it - it possibly has a fairly generic breakout PCB insde. If it can't be opened, buying an ethernet extension cable might be the easiest way to get a pigtail.

OK, that is borne out by my experiment. Even though it looks like I have 8 copper tracks in the socket, and 8 wires, not all seem "live" when tested.

The diagram makes it look like I need the innermost 4 connections, which must be numbered 3-4-5-6 regardless of which side you are counting from.

That probably means that those RJ45-to-USB connectors I have will not work, either, because they are tracking different connections.

So is there an 8P8C socket that I can buy where everything is actually connected?
"I never understood wind. I know windmills very much, I have studied it better than anybody. I know it is very expensive. They are made in China and Germany mostly, very few made here, almost none, but they are manufactured, tremendous — if you are into this — tremendous fumes and gases are spewing into the atmosphere. You know we have a world, right? So the world is tiny compared to the universe. So tremendous, tremendous amount of fumes and everything. You talk about the carbon footprint, fumes are spewing into the air, right spewing, whether it is China or Germany, is going into the air.
A windmill will kill many bald eagles. After a certain number, they make you turn the windmill off, that is true. By the way, they make you turn it off. And yet, if you killed one, they put you in jail. That is OK. But why is it OK for windmills to destroy the bird population?"
- Donald Trump - Turning Point USA speech – 2019-12-22

Offline Soarer

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #894 on: Sun, 21 July 2013, 20:12:57 »
Any CAT5e extension cable will have all 8 pins wired, so that's the safest bet if buying something.

The RJ45-to-USB thingies, who knows! They might have wired all 8, even if they weren't going to use them.

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #895 on: Sun, 21 July 2013, 20:58:54 »
Any CAT5e extension cable will have all 8 pins wired, so that's the safest bet if buying something.

The RJ45-to-USB thingies, who knows! They might have wired all 8, even if they weren't going to use them.

I will look for a CAT5 extension cable.

How could the RJ45-to-USB adapter wire all 8? Doesn't USB have only 4 slots? You can't "double up" can you?
"I never understood wind. I know windmills very much, I have studied it better than anybody. I know it is very expensive. They are made in China and Germany mostly, very few made here, almost none, but they are manufactured, tremendous — if you are into this — tremendous fumes and gases are spewing into the atmosphere. You know we have a world, right? So the world is tiny compared to the universe. So tremendous, tremendous amount of fumes and everything. You talk about the carbon footprint, fumes are spewing into the air, right spewing, whether it is China or Germany, is going into the air.
A windmill will kill many bald eagles. After a certain number, they make you turn the windmill off, that is true. By the way, they make you turn it off. And yet, if you killed one, they put you in jail. That is OK. But why is it OK for windmills to destroy the bird population?"
- Donald Trump - Turning Point USA speech – 2019-12-22

Offline Soarer

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #896 on: Sun, 21 July 2013, 21:11:54 »
Oh... are they just wiring adapters to use ethernet cable as USB? Or are they active devices to give you proper ethernet?

If the former, then yeah, I guess they'd use the same 4 pins as 10 and 100 Mbit.

I was thinking you meant the latter... which might wire all 8 pins, even if they only use 4, if it makes the assembly easier.

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #897 on: Mon, 22 July 2013, 09:46:40 »
Gee, thanks, guys, for putting a big gob of white something (incredibly tough) all over the area where I need to work!

It will really test the limits of my skill (clumsy at best) and equipment (cheap junk) to solder to those TINY spots around the back.

Not hard to identify what I need to do, but not easy to do it.

I will keep you posted.

edit - out of my skill range. I ordered an 8P8C ethernet cable and straight-through coupler from ebay. if it works, I can easily handle the wiring, but will have either 6 or 7 "pieces" between the keyboard and the computer!
« Last Edit: Mon, 22 July 2013, 13:44:59 by fohat.digs »
"I never understood wind. I know windmills very much, I have studied it better than anybody. I know it is very expensive. They are made in China and Germany mostly, very few made here, almost none, but they are manufactured, tremendous — if you are into this — tremendous fumes and gases are spewing into the atmosphere. You know we have a world, right? So the world is tiny compared to the universe. So tremendous, tremendous amount of fumes and everything. You talk about the carbon footprint, fumes are spewing into the air, right spewing, whether it is China or Germany, is going into the air.
A windmill will kill many bald eagles. After a certain number, they make you turn the windmill off, that is true. By the way, they make you turn it off. And yet, if you killed one, they put you in jail. That is OK. But why is it OK for windmills to destroy the bird population?"
- Donald Trump - Turning Point USA speech – 2019-12-22

Offline Soarer

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #898 on: Tue, 30 July 2013, 21:02:46 »
Minor doc update (v1.12) posted to the OP covering changes since v1.10, some polishing, updated thread contents pages, and search boxes for searching this thread and the DT thread.

Offline Soarer

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Re: XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO
« Reply #899 on: Tue, 30 July 2013, 21:09:04 »
Gee, thanks, guys, for putting a big gob of white something (incredibly tough) all over the area where I need to work!

Almost as though they did it on purpose!  :p

How about hacking one of these apart?

« Last Edit: Tue, 30 July 2013, 21:11:12 by Soarer »