Author Topic: Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show  (Read 16422 times)

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Offline speakeasy

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Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #50 on: Thu, 07 July 2011, 16:31:16 »
Quote from: ClosedBSD;375633
Feel free to post some original ideas that the free market has provided that would be a soutable replacement for any of them.

The government has a monopoly on first class mail. How soon would the USPS be rendered irrelevant if Fedex and UPS could deliver first class mail?
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Offline ClosedBSD

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Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #51 on: Thu, 07 July 2011, 16:48:05 »
Quote from: speakeasy;375632
That's not speculation, a lot of things that the government has a monopoly on today (even things like fire departments) were once in the private sector and ran just fine. In fact, some things that were once heavily under government control became much better once the private sector moved in, like the internet.
Fire Departments are a terrible example for things "running fine", in fact, there was a story in Tennessee where a department let a house burn down since members had not 'paid their fee' (link). Even further back, private fire departments used to mark the houses they insured and not help them if they were not, and sometimes obstructing access to the house if a rival insurer had the house when they arrived (picture). How is this not better than having every pay into the service, especially when situations could arise where I have paid, my neighbor hasn't, and the fire jumps ot my house?

The internet being better after private industry came in was only the case for awhile. Look what is happening now, companies like Comcast have local monopolies, are capping bandwidth, and are increasing rates, and no one can move in to stop them as they just lower their prices (they can do this without cutting into profits) and price others out of the market. Also, how would private industry even be involved in the internet today, had not federal funding and a need for a secure, powerful military network been there to inspire the creation of the project?

Quote from: speakeasy;375632
If you want to say a business' only real motive is power, then you must be willing to admit that a poltician's only motive is to get more power. The difference between a money hungry business and a power hungry government is that I can choose to stop funding the business by not buying its products or services. I can't choose to stop funding a power hungry government because first of all, my taxes are taken out of salary before I even receive my paycheck. And even if they weren't, if I were to stop paying my taxes, armed men would show up at my door and imprison me/shoot me.

I am on the side of neither big business or big government, because often the two go hand in hand, but at least the business can't use threats of violence to force me to do things I don't want to do.

Businesses can threaten violence and get away with it as well - hell, we have a long history of businesses killing union workers and leaders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-union_violence), businesses like DeBeers have been abusing people for years, there have been articles popping up about the FBI busting people in Florida for abusing immigrants who are forced to work and live as slaves. Business is basically the same thing as government on a large scale, except that we don't vote for who runs a business.

Also, it should be noted I tried to convey that business' only real motive is profit, but in today's world power and capital are basically synonymous so we're basically arguing semantics.

Offline ClosedBSD

  • Posts: 20
Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #52 on: Thu, 07 July 2011, 16:50:49 »
Quote from: speakeasy;375635
The government has a monopoly on first class mail. How soon would the USPS be rendered irrelevant if Fedex and UPS could deliver first class mail?

Better question: Would Fedex or USPS deliver mail to all locations, even if they were not profitable? Shouldn't everyone, even those people living out in the hills of kentucky have equal access to mail, even if it incurs a slightly higher cost to those delivering it?

Offline redpill

  • Posts: 503
Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #53 on: Thu, 07 July 2011, 17:05:22 »
Quote from: ClosedBSD;375644
Better question: Would Fedex or USPS deliver mail to all locations, even if they were not profitable? Shouldn't everyone, even those people living out in the hills of kentucky have equal access to mail, even if it incurs a slightly higher cost to those delivering it?

Equal access to mail?  lol, you're too much dude.

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Offline ClosedBSD

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Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #54 on: Thu, 07 July 2011, 17:10:01 »
Quote from: redpill;375651
Equal access to mail?  lol, you're too much dude.

I don't get it, do you somehow think poorer people living far apart somehow don't deserve communication with the rest of the country?

edit: that's a part of the reason the founding fathers gave Congress the ability to make a postal service. Fairer access

Offline redpill

  • Posts: 503
Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #55 on: Thu, 07 July 2011, 17:16:30 »
Self-described leftist socialists really have no grounds to discuss the founding fathers.  And there's a reason "equal access to mail" is not in the bill of rights, let's just put it that way.

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Offline ClosedBSD

  • Posts: 20
Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #56 on: Thu, 07 July 2011, 17:23:03 »
Quote from: redpill;375658
Self-described leftist socialists really have no grounds to discuss the founding fathers.  And there's a reason "equal access to mail" is not in the bill of rights, let's just put it that way.


I wasn't painting them as some saints, simply pointing out that they saw that giving people more access to something like mail was 'fair'.

I'm glad you grew up in such great conditions that you cannot possibly imagine terribly poor people existing, and cannot comprehend that not having equal access to basic services like food, shelter, communication, and education can lead to a feedback loop of poverty and defeatism.

I'm glad no one really takes Libertarianism seriously, because it would be awfully depressing to live in your world where only people born to white yuppies have any luxuries and the rest of the population get the scraps that the business they work for leaves them.

Offline Ink`Eyes

  • Posts: 28
Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #57 on: Thu, 07 July 2011, 17:45:33 »
Quote from: redpill;375658
Self-described leftist socialists really have no grounds to discuss the founding fathers.  And there's a reason "equal access to mail" is not in the bill of rights, let's just put it that way.

Tell that to Thomas Paine.  

Is it alright if a monarchists discusses the founding fathers? Alexander Hamilton did.

Offline ClosedBSD

  • Posts: 20
Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #58 on: Thu, 07 July 2011, 17:46:57 »
Edit: **** this, I'm an idiot for arguing with you in the first place, and once again my belief that all Libertarians and Ron Paul fans are exactly the same stands.

Gonna set you to ignore and leave you with your terribly self-centered and depressing worldview, I hope you get some relief from it before the absolute depression of knowing the world isn't created to cater to your personal whims and that life certainly isn't fair to anyone. I'm gonna continue to try and make positive change in the world for you, me, and everyone else. Good luck.

Offline keyboardlover

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Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #59 on: Thu, 07 July 2011, 17:48:58 »
Quote from: Ink`Eyes;375677
Tell that to Thomas Paine.

 
My motto is "Let them eat Thomas Paine."

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Offline TexasFlood

  • Posts: 1084
Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #60 on: Thu, 07 July 2011, 18:12:07 »
Quote from: ClosedBSD;375655
I don't get it, do you somehow think poorer people living far apart somehow don't deserve communication with the rest of the country?

edit: that's a part of the reason the founding fathers gave Congress the ability to make a postal service. Fairer access
The democracy we have today probably goes a lot further than the republic envisioned and described by the founding fathers.  Of course that is part of the beauty of the constitution that it had the flexibility to go beyond their vision of that time.

The electoral college is a good model to illustrate this, a true popular vote would probably not have even been considered.  With regard to voting rights, it took quite a number of amendments to include all the various disenfranchised groups who weren't basically land owning white men.

And don't forget that around a dozen of the founding fathers owned slaves or owned/managed slave-operated plantations or large farms including Franklin, Jefferson, Madison, Washington.  Times change, people can change.  Franklin later freed his slaves and was a key founder of the Pennsylvania Anti-Slavery Society.  Washington, in his will, only after his death, outright freed one slave, his personal servant, and provided benefits for the others.  Jefferson claimed to oppose slavery as an institution saying he wanted it to end.  But he depended on slave labor to support his household and plantations and never freed his slaves even in his will.

Don't get me wrong, what they put together was literally revolutionary for the time, based largely on British models but going further, and had mechanisms to change as needed.  But I'm sceptical based on my impression of the founding fathers that they envisioned or would have supported an idea like universal "equal access to mail".
« Last Edit: Thu, 07 July 2011, 18:36:22 by TexasFlood »

Offline speakeasy

  • Posts: 181
Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #61 on: Thu, 07 July 2011, 18:12:39 »
I had typed up a response to your previous post, but I think I accidentally refreshed the page or something and lost my post :( I'm going to work now, but I'll quickly respond to this one.

Quote from: ClosedBSD;375644
Better question: Would Fedex or USPS deliver mail to all locations, even if they were not profitable? Shouldn't everyone, even those people living out in the hills of kentucky have equal access to mail, even if it incurs a slightly higher cost to those delivering it?

 
Does USPS even do that? When I was living in an apartment during my hospital internship, I had to go to the Post Office to pick up mail. People in small towns won't get mail delivered to their address and instead have to buy a PO Box or pick up mail at a centralized location.
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Offline redpill

  • Posts: 503
Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #62 on: Fri, 08 July 2011, 01:19:17 »
Quote from: ClosedBSD;375678
Edit: **** this, I'm an idiot for arguing with you in the first place, and once again my belief that all Libertarians and Ron Paul fans are exactly the same stands.

Gonna set you to ignore and leave you with your terribly self-centered and depressing worldview, I hope you get some relief from it before the absolute depression of knowing the world isn't created to cater to your personal whims and that life certainly isn't fair to anyone. I'm gonna continue to try and make positive change in the world for you, me, and everyone else. Good luck.

Hahahaha, yeah make positive change by having government steal OTHER PEOPLES **** to make YOU feel better.  Yeah, you're a real hero.  Theft is such a noble practice, as long as you aren't being stolen from.  And here you go off about others being self centered.   Too funny, and so sadly typical.  Back to sleep Neo.
« Last Edit: Fri, 08 July 2011, 01:24:21 by redpill »

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Offline ClosedBSD

  • Posts: 20
Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #63 on: Fri, 08 July 2011, 02:36:43 »
Quote from: TexasFlood;375690
The democracy we have today probably goes a lot further than the republic envisioned and described by the founding fathers.  Of course that is part of the beauty of the constitution that it had the flexibility to go beyond their vision of that time.

The electoral college is a good model to illustrate this, a true popular vote would probably not have even been considered.  With regard to voting rights, it took quite a number of amendments to include all the various disenfranchised groups who weren't basically land owning white men.

And don't forget that around a dozen of the founding fathers owned slaves or owned/managed slave-operated plantations or large farms including Franklin, Jefferson, Madison, Washington.  Times change, people can change.  Franklin later freed his slaves and was a key founder of the Pennsylvania Anti-Slavery Society.  Washington, in his will, only after his death, outright freed one slave, his personal servant, and provided benefits for the others.  Jefferson claimed to oppose slavery as an institution saying he wanted it to end.  But he depended on slave labor to support his household and plantations and never freed his slaves even in his will.

Don't get me wrong, what they put together was literally revolutionary for the time, based largely on British models but going further, and had mechanisms to change as needed.  But I'm sceptical based on my impression of the founding fathers that they envisioned or would have supported an idea like universal "equal access to mail".

Yeah, I misrepresented myself, I didn't mean to add to the weird deification of the founding fathers as much as I meant to point out that people back then knew that public services had a place.

Offline ClosedBSD

  • Posts: 20
Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #64 on: Fri, 08 July 2011, 02:37:59 »
edit: nvm

Enjoy your stupid matrix references and being a part of Ron Paul's cult of personality
« Last Edit: Fri, 08 July 2011, 02:47:38 by ClosedBSD »

Offline silat

  • Posts: 168
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Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #65 on: Fri, 08 July 2011, 04:22:22 »
I have a problem with the Pauls.

1 he is a bigot. Just google it.
2 Nazi skinhead organizations love him
3 Anyone that actually thinks Aynal Rand was a genius is a complete wackjob.
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Offline What is X?

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Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #66 on: Fri, 08 July 2011, 04:59:54 »
Pity he's pro-religion...

Offline keyboardlover

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Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #67 on: Fri, 08 July 2011, 06:29:38 »
Freedom of religion is one of the most important rights we have.

Offline ClosedBSD

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Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #68 on: Fri, 08 July 2011, 14:16:39 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;376063
Freedom of religion is one of the most important rights we have.

Freedom of religion is all well and good, but Paul thinks religion has a place in politics

See his views on prayer in schools/politics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Ron_Paul#Freedom_of_religion

and his "We The People act, which goes so far as to let states decide which religious affiliation office holders have, similar to Texas' Constitution which claims all politicians must acknowledge the existence of a Supreme being.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_the_People_Act#We_the_People_Act

Like I said, Paul always says a lot of reasonable things, but when you take them hand-in-hand with the crazy, he becomes unelectable.
« Last Edit: Fri, 08 July 2011, 14:17:05 by ClosedBSD »

Offline redpill

  • Posts: 503
Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #69 on: Fri, 08 July 2011, 15:33:55 »
^ Nice selective quoting.  A more honest description is that the We The People act merely removes from federal jurisdiction subjects that they have no business being involved in to begin with.

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