Author Topic: kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations  (Read 156677 times)

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Offline Input Nirvana

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #100 on: Sat, 31 December 2011, 03:27:39 »
It's nice to hear your thoughts on the key issues. I feel like I'm on an island and making decisions for others. Pressure!!

I like the look :)
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Offline sordna

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #101 on: Sat, 31 December 2011, 04:21:01 »
Nah, I'll let you guys figure out the keycap replacement stuff. I got fed up dealing with keycaps during my o-ring/dental-band/landing-pad research :-)
But here's my thoughts on issue #2 (the + - top corner keys). Looking sideways at my original Kinesis keys, the + and - keys have a different angle than their neighbors on the same row (1 and 2). So using a flatter key would actually bring more consistency in that row, so the problem is not so much the slope, but the height. Keys in other rows are not tall enough to make good replacements. Sigh.
I wonder if WASDKeyboards can find Kinesis' supplier (or co-operate with Kinesis) and get blank Kinesis keysets to sell as is, or etched/engraved.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Input Nirvana

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #102 on: Sat, 31 December 2011, 10:51:54 »
WASD said exactly that, so I'll email him a reminder.

Note 2 original Kinesis white keys (issue #1, #2) relative to red and orange keys.


Note 2 gray R2 keys and same red and orange keys.
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Offline erw

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #103 on: Sun, 01 January 2012, 09:39:28 »
Quote from: input nirvana;477340

KEY ISSUE #4 (affects 4 keys-thumb cluster single keys)
The two keys at the top of the cluster are very tall (see P1 on KPS chart). The slope is not a problem, it's available, but not in a key of that dramatic height. I'm working on changing some other key heights for a work around. Since we didn't have any of the 2 highest keys, I'm playing with adjusting all three key heights. In the pictures above, you can see the original Kinesis keys with legends, and the 2 lower keys that are the appropriate keys for those positions (red and grey keys). What I've done to keep the staggered height, is to remove the highest keys and move the keys "up" a spot to see if it will all work together. There are a couple ways to do this, and I'm looking for what's best.
(Attachment Link) 35883[/ATTACH] (Attachment Link) 35885[/ATTACH]


I have tried moving the keys up and putting an R1 in the "hole" as in your second picture. It does not look like a big difference, but it feels big. I can no longer hit a "stair" key without also hitting the one below it, or having to twist my thumb in an uncomfortable manner. The modifier above Enter also requires an uncomfortable twist of the thumb.

I would not use these replacements. I think we really need the tall keys, unfortunately. I also guess Kinesis would only have used these apparently non-standard keys if they were necessary.
Kinesis Advantage LF (MX Red), Kinesis Advantage (MX Brown), Ergodox (MX Red), Colemak

Offline Input Nirvana

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #104 on: Sun, 01 January 2012, 10:19:08 »
100% agree. I replaced the original keys last night, noted the feel and swapped with replacements this morning...not satisfied with the downgraded experience. :(

The profile of the 4 keys is available, the height is the problem.

Time to consider options.
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Offline dorkvader

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #106 on: Sun, 01 January 2012, 11:20:12 »
Quote from: input nirvana;481414
100% agree. I replaced the original keys last night, noted the feel and swapped with replacements this morning...not satisfied with the downgraded experience. :(

The profile of the 4 keys is available, the height is the problem.

Time to consider options.
Can you source "row5" keycaps like on the Race? They look a bit taller.
Here's the picture I was thinking of:
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 26598[/ATTACH]


Also, something looks off about the right enter key on that kinesis on ebay. It might just be me, though.

Offline erw

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #107 on: Sun, 01 January 2012, 17:51:49 »
Quote from: dorkvader;481446
Also, something looks off about the right enter key on that kinesis on ebay. It might just be me, though.


Totally off. Wtf.


About key issue 3, the home keys, I have placed my old arrow keys in my right hand home row instead of the spherical keys. Even though they're R1, they're pretty easy to use. But I think they should be replaced by R3. It seems to make for the smoothest curve.

I really thought I'd miss the spherical form that cradles your fingertips, but the standard cylindrical shape is not too bad. And it looks kind of refreshing to not have blue home keys, btw:

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 36430[/ATTACH]
Kinesis Advantage LF (MX Red), Kinesis Advantage (MX Brown), Ergodox (MX Red), Colemak

Offline Input Nirvana

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #108 on: Tue, 03 January 2012, 03:02:41 »
R1, R2, and R3.... Comparing the 3 of these for the home row, can you please rate in order of preference and why?
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Offline erw

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #109 on: Tue, 03 January 2012, 09:43:39 »
I don't have four spare R2's or R3's so if I take them from the other parts of the board, it's a bit hard to test how they feel during "unconscious" usage, i.e. typing naturally without thinking about it, because the other parts of the board will have weird keys. But since the R1's are acceptable, the R3's are closest to the slope of the sphericals (i.e., level), and the R2 is in between, I'd guess my order of preference is R3, R2, R1 with R3 being the most preferred.

But when I get home from uni today, I'll swap some R3's from the other side of the board and see how "unconscious" I can make it :-)
Kinesis Advantage LF (MX Red), Kinesis Advantage (MX Brown), Ergodox (MX Red), Colemak

Offline erw

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #110 on: Tue, 03 January 2012, 13:51:15 »
I should guess less and test more. R3s as home keys just do not feel right. It's weird that such small differences mean so much for the fingers. Changing them around makes me feel all not-at-home at my keyboard.

But having actually tried all three options now, I'm gonna go with R2 as the winner. I can't decide on who gets second place but it would probably be R1.
Kinesis Advantage LF (MX Red), Kinesis Advantage (MX Brown), Ergodox (MX Red), Colemak

Offline Input Nirvana

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #111 on: Tue, 03 January 2012, 17:40:37 »
Quote from: erw;482488
I should guess less and test more. R3s as home keys just do not feel right. It's weird that such small differences mean so much for the fingers. Changing them around makes me feel all not-at-home at my keyboard.

But having actually tried all three options now, I'm gonna go with R2 as the winner. I can't decide on who gets second place but it would probably be R1.

AH-HA!!! I thought so! R2, even though it seems the flattest profile would be best since the sphericals are 'flat'. I'm glad someone else came to that SAME EXACT conclusion. Erw, you make a GREAT guinea pig. Thanks for playing :) We get a third person to concur, and I'll close that chapter for good.

INPUT NIRVANA GOING OUT ON A LIMB: I like the home row sphericals, but am now wondering if they are a 'compromise key cap'?

We're knocking down these key issues one by one....almost there!
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Offline erw

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #112 on: Wed, 04 January 2012, 13:00:39 »
Heh, yeah, after posting I noticed back in one your previous posts that you ended up with R2 as well, so it was a good match :-)

I'm still typing with my left hand home keys as R1 and my right hand home keys as R2 and the rest of the board is a mess :-P

What do you mean by "compromise key cap"?
Kinesis Advantage LF (MX Red), Kinesis Advantage (MX Brown), Ergodox (MX Red), Colemak

Offline Input Nirvana

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #113 on: Wed, 04 January 2012, 17:51:26 »
Compromise key cap. All keyboards have compromises. Maybe they wanted to have special keys for home row, maybe marketing, maybe ??? And that's why the blue sphericals. Maybe the R2 is the perfect key, and rather than put a nub on the index fingers they went whole hog with blue sphericals. We should ask the thinking behind that choice for insight.

That is my head working overtime on a key cap.
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Offline erw

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #114 on: Wed, 04 January 2012, 18:17:58 »
Looking back a bit,

Quote from: input nirvana;477340
For the right hand keywell/thumb cluster the "SPACE" key is an 'enter' key on a num pad. The "ENTER" key is a '+' key on a num pad.


Do normal num pad plus keys have a sideways slope?

And what about the left hand delete key?
Kinesis Advantage LF (MX Red), Kinesis Advantage (MX Brown), Ergodox (MX Red), Colemak

Offline kps

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #115 on: Wed, 04 January 2012, 20:53:12 »
Quote from: erw;483426
Do normal num pad plus keys have a sideways slope?

No, the Space and BackSpace keys don't have a sideways slope; they are the same as a number pad Enter in the source profile.
Quote
And what about the left hand delete key?

The Delete and Enter keys, the sideways-sloping ones, are modifier-row keys turned on their sides.

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #116 on: Thu, 05 January 2012, 01:50:23 »
Yea, the 4 long thumb cluster key caps are "standard" that WASD has in stock.
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Offline erw

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #117 on: Thu, 05 January 2012, 05:16:35 »
Quote from: kps;483502
The Delete and Enter keys, the sideways-sloping ones, are modifier-row keys turned on their sides.

Ok, so they're not num pad plus keys, they're modifiers. That clears it up.
Kinesis Advantage LF (MX Red), Kinesis Advantage (MX Brown), Ergodox (MX Red), Colemak

Offline erw

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #118 on: Sun, 08 January 2012, 10:26:10 »
I just got some samples of O-rings. Their effect on the noise not as big as I had hoped for, but it feels like someone is inside my keyboard, holding the keys for me. Almost as if someone is caressing my fingertips when I type :-P

So anyway, how are we doing with the tall modifiers?
Kinesis Advantage LF (MX Red), Kinesis Advantage (MX Brown), Ergodox (MX Red), Colemak

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #119 on: Mon, 09 January 2012, 11:08:09 »
I'm mostly out of the loop for about 30 days (out of town). I think we were asking someone with a Race/Phantom for key cap measurements. Or, some bold person would contact and charm Kinesis to see what info they will offer on the key caps we have not found.

No info in wiki? I looked but may have missed.

If everything fails, I will make a bunch this summer. (see GH thread on making key caps)
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Offline dorkvader

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #120 on: Mon, 09 January 2012, 22:07:03 »
Quote from: input nirvana;486630
If everything fails, I will make a bunch this summer. (see GH thread on making key caps)
I wonder if we can contact vortex (if that really is their name: wasn't it KBT or something before?) directly about where they got the row5 keycaps for the race?. Also, you'll be the clack factory of kinesis!

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #121 on: Tue, 10 January 2012, 01:37:16 »
Oh man! Clackmaster is an option, I don't think there is enough money in it though.
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Offline boli

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #122 on: Mon, 16 January 2012, 11:40:13 »
Quote from: input nirvana;482220
R1, R2, and R3.... Comparing the 3 of these for the home row, can you please rate in order of preference and why?

Quote from: input nirvana;482705
We get a third person to concur, and I'll close that chapter for good.


Hey guys

Since I currently have 3 Kinesis boards I thought I should give this a try, especially since there are very few regular width R2(=P4) keys on each keyboard. Namely the G and H keys (in QWERTY speak); I did not notice that the End and PageDown key would have worked as well.

I used this P# to R# mapping and this P# reference

Anyway, so I removed all spherical keys on my work keyboard, and put the flat R3(=P3) keys on the right hand side instead, that is I put the UIOP (in QWERTY speak) keys from my home keyboard there. They worked well, and provided the smoothest transition from top row to home row. Due to the different slope than the adjacent keys (caps lock, G, H and ') there is a slight "hitch" when moving to either of those 4 adjacent keys - nothing to worry about though.

On the left hand I started off with R1(=P5) keys, those with the steepest slope, I just used ZXCV keys from my home keyboard for this. It was entirely usable, but the right hand side felt slightly better. Due to the steep slope there were noticeable differences in both vertical and horizontal transition.

Then I replaced the left hand with the less sloped R2(=P4) keys, that is to say I put the G and H keys from two other Kinesis boards there (as mentioned above I overlooked End and PageDown until a few minutes ago). These keys worked very well too, providing a seamless horizontal transition, and the same small but noticeable hitch between home<->top and home<->bottom.

So, my order of preference is as well: R2 > R3 >> R1. R1 are too steep. R2 and R3 both worked well for me, I'd be happy with either, however the R2 are better integrated horizontally (meaning seamless transition to caps lock, G, H or '), and do provide a noticeable difference to the top row - which means it's easier to feel when you're in the home row.

Hope this helped. :)
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #123 on: Mon, 16 January 2012, 15:08:54 »
Yea, that helps big time!

So you're saying the sphericals are definitely better, but R2 is almost as good and is acceptable?

I am committed to:
1) getting us exact non-legended Kinesis keycaps
2) a reasonable compromise on a few of the difficult sourcing/pricey keycaps so we can get from WASD Keyboards

The goal is for custom colors, legends, engraving/etching.

Any further info you guys... :)
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Offline nodnerb

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #124 on: Mon, 16 January 2012, 15:38:10 »
I bought the keyboard from http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Working-Kinesis-Contoured-Ergonomic-Keyboard-Model-100-DIN-PS-2-/170756710450?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item27c1e4a032
(Cheapest option to get a contoured keyboard to Australia that I've ever seen.)
The enter key was crooked enough that it interfered with the space key. I've replaced that key with a lasered grey numpad Enter key from a Cherry G80 board. Works fine but looks a little ghetto.
It's taking me a little while to get used to the keyboard coming from a Goldtouch but it's a challenge I am enjoying.
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Offline erw

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #125 on: Mon, 16 January 2012, 15:57:57 »
Quote from: input nirvana;491830
So you're saying the sphericals are definitely better, but R2 is almost as good and is acceptable?


It's just me, but I think I prefer R2 over sphericals.

Quote from: input nirvana;491830
The goal is for custom colors, legends, engraving/etching.

Oh my. I can't really decide if I'd want blank or Colemak caps. I'm a bit worried I'll order both when it is possible :-P

Quote from: nodnerb;491854
It's taking me a little while to get used to the keyboard coming from a Goldtouch but it's a challenge I am enjoying.


It took me two months to get used to the Advantage, so don't worry if you're not used to it within a few days like other people. But as long as you're enjoying it :-D
Kinesis Advantage LF (MX Red), Kinesis Advantage (MX Brown), Ergodox (MX Red), Colemak

Offline boli

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« Reply #126 on: Mon, 16 January 2012, 17:47:40 »
Quote from: input nirvana;491830
So you're saying the sphericals are definitely better, but R2 is almost as good and is acceptable?

I haven't had a go with sphericals on one side and flats on the other side actually (might give it a whirl tomorrow at work), but even so the R2s (and even R3s) felt good enough to be a decent replacement for the sphericals. The spherical's sole point seems to be to mark the home position both visually and tactilely, and I guess either of these things can be had with replacements. Personally I'm not sure the home position needs to be marked, as the hands kind of move into the proper position automatically by now.

Quote from: erw;491875
Oh my. I can't really decide if I'd want blank or Colemak caps. I'm a bit worried I'll order both when it is possible :-P

Good question. I guess if a set isn't too expensive why not. :)

***

Anyway, it looks like 3 of the 4 key issues with WASD replacements are resolved (using replacements with tolerable compromise), and only issue #4 remains, which means that we can already replace all but 4 keys on a Kinesis board, that's great!

Then there's the second option of ordering 1000+ custom key caps from Kinesis, which I guess would have to be blank to be acceptable (but likely not ideal) for most. 1000 is quite a few, at 68 keys per full set that would have to be at least 15 sets. I'd probably buy 2 such blank sets and get a few colored key caps from WASD to spice it up.

And there's the 3rd option SP, which someone mentioned way earlier on page 3 with if you want PBT blank just ask signature plastic, it would not be too expensive, but I'm not sure if it would be an exact replacement - given the work kps and IN put into it I doubt the SP solution would be perfect (unless they supply Kinesis). Not sure if anyone ever asked SP.
« Last Edit: Tue, 17 January 2012, 02:08:16 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #127 on: Mon, 16 January 2012, 20:30:44 »
I contacted SP a couple years ago and they said they 'used to' supply Kinesis keys, but they away the molds. Who does that? And I believe they must have supplied the doubleshots after comparing at WASD Keyboards.

I think Dorkvader suggested a possible 'tall key' replacement from the RACE keyboard, I don't know if anyone has taken a close look, or looked elsewhere for possible replacements.

Again, someone could call Kinesis and beg Rick for some info on this situation...I have a feeling they won't say their source, many places won't, but it could be helpful anyhow. If blank white keys were purchased, they could be Rit Dyed.
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Offline dorkvader

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« Reply #128 on: Mon, 16 January 2012, 21:50:49 »
Quote from: input nirvana;492089
I contacted SP a couple years ago and they said they 'used to' supply Kinesis keys, but they away the molds. Who does that? And I believe they must have supplied the doubleshots after comparing at WASD Keyboards.

I think Dorkvader suggested a possible 'tall key' replacement from the RACE keyboard, I don't know if anyone has taken a close look, or looked elsewhere for possible replacements.

Again, someone could call Kinesis and beg Rick for some info on this situation...I have a feeling they won't say their source, many places won't, but it could be helpful anyhow. If blank white keys were purchased, they could be Rit Dyed.
I read you have to be careful with RIT dye on ABS because of the heat. That said, PBT kinesis keys in any colour wound be amazing.

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #129 on: Tue, 17 January 2012, 00:43:34 »
Quote from: dorkvader;492137
I read you have to be careful with RIT dye on ABS because of the heat. That said, PBT kinesis keys in any colour wound be amazing.

A higher quality key cap is well-deserved by the Kinesis board. If we can't get the blanks from Kinesis or the manufacturer, we'll just continue with our 'matching up' quest. I assume even the possibility of blanks would probably be only black or white, but I may be wrong. Then again, most keys seem to be standard keys with only a few possible real 'Kinesis Custom Keys'.
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
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Offline boli

  • Posts: 342
Interest check: who'd buy blank original Kinesis key caps
« Reply #130 on: Tue, 17 January 2012, 02:18:27 »
I just wrote to Rick at Kinesis asking if they would actually sell blank key caps if we do get their minimum order of 1000 key caps together. Let's see what his reply is. I have a feeling that we might get an order of 15 full sets (68 key caps per set) together for a total of 1020 key caps.

So, interest check:
Who of you Kinesis owners would buy blank original Kinesis key cap sets, and if so how many?

I'd take at least 2 sets, maybe 3.
« Last Edit: Tue, 17 January 2012, 02:21:07 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline erw

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #131 on: Tue, 17 January 2012, 06:39:03 »
If we can't get them from WASD, I might want a black and a white set. But I don't care that much about the sphericals or the R2 1x1.25's so the modifiers are the most important.

Can't WASD just buy a 1000 modifiers from them? :-)
Kinesis Advantage LF (MX Red), Kinesis Advantage (MX Brown), Ergodox (MX Red), Colemak

Offline Architect

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #132 on: Tue, 17 January 2012, 08:29:16 »
Just caught this thread, what the heck I would buy 2 or three sets depending on price. I should just sell my Kinesis but I don't have the heart to do it, I guess I'm just going to keep a collection of Ergonomic keyboards.

Too bad, some years ago I threw out a number of old Advantages because they were so old and worn out (not mine - other engineers who left the company). But then again I'm not sure I'd want to keep some old nasty keycaps, too much bad joo-joo.
TECK 209 Blank Keys; Leopold Number Pad; X-Keys Professional; X-Keys 84.

Offline kps

  • Posts: 410
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #133 on: Tue, 17 January 2012, 08:50:28 »
I'm currently doing a ‘short’ thumb cluster test. In place of the tall (function row) modifiers, I have number row keys. To compensate, I put Q-row keys in place of Home and PgUp (normally number rows) and Space/Backspace (i.e. numpad Enter on a regular keyboard) keys in place of Delete and Enter. I haven't, but might yet, change End and PgDn as well. I'll report next week.

Offline Input Nirvana

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #134 on: Tue, 17 January 2012, 09:01:06 »
Yaaayyy!!! Finally someone gets up Ricks butt (besides me). LOL  One reason I wanted someone else to contact Kinesis, is so that they hear the same request from different sources. Get it?

-Would like to get the sphericals black or white (not just blue) as well.
-Ultimately we (or WASD) MAY need to source these things :(
-I really like Dorkvaders thoughts on PBT keys as well.

WASD Keyboards may be the best/easiest way to get blanks from/through Kinesis. Disclaimer: For several reasons, at this point, I would like/prefer WASD to handle a minimum order/group buy:
1) it just makes sense
2) it will be easier overall, he is set up for it
3) custom legends for all you wacky Colemak users (oops, did I type that out loud on my Colemak layout?)
4) he can stock for easy future purchases
5) has a great track record
6) There is no one else I would rather do business with regarding key caps.
7) I think I owe him money. I should really check on that. No one likes a deadbeat.

***I'll go to the OP and update the info later today on what has been discussed.***

I definitely want at least 1 blank set, probably more. I was going to do Ripsters sandblast mod to blank out the existing keys, but the plastic is so thin, you really can't blast too much or it's a very bad thing.

 FUNNY-ISH STORY:
The first few times I called Rick, admittedly, I asked a lot of *&%@ questions. When I would call I could almost hear Rick "Oh, it's YOU again :(". Now, a couple years later, my questions are much better, and I think I've offered a thing or two back, so it more like "Oh, it's YOU again :)"

The reason I mention this? Imagine working a keyboard company, especially Kinesis. You KNOW there is some crazy stupid stuff coming in on the phone line. As silly as it sounds, I bet the guy goes home to his girlfriend, puts his head on her lap, covers his eyes and says "You can't believe what someone called and asked me. Why would someone want to hook up a keyboard to a car battery?" Poor Rick, go easy on him.
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
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Offline Architect

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #135 on: Tue, 17 January 2012, 09:08:12 »
Never talked directly to him but I've been emailing Rick for years about various Kinesis things.
TECK 209 Blank Keys; Leopold Number Pad; X-Keys Professional; X-Keys 84.

Offline Input Nirvana

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #136 on: Tue, 17 January 2012, 10:06:05 »
Quote from: Architect;492407
Never talked directly to him but I've been emailing Rick for years about various Kinesis things.

I'm sure you've asked some crazy **** too (car batteries and such) so I don't feel too bad for being the source of his massive drinking problem.
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
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Offline erw

  • Posts: 103
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #137 on: Tue, 17 January 2012, 15:45:35 »
Quote from: input nirvana;492400
Imagine working a keyboard company, especially Kinesis. You KNOW there is some crazy stupid stuff coming in on the phone line. As silly as it sounds, I bet the guy goes home to his girlfriend, puts his head on her lap, covers his eyes and says "You can't believe what someone called and asked me. Why would someone want to hook up a keyboard to a car battery?" Poor Rick, go easy on him.


Hahaha, epic! :-)

I almost feel bad about asking, but why would someone want to hook up a keyboard to a car battery? :-P
Kinesis Advantage LF (MX Red), Kinesis Advantage (MX Brown), Ergodox (MX Red), Colemak

Offline dorkvader

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #138 on: Tue, 17 January 2012, 18:20:58 »
Quote from: erw;492784
Hahaha, epic! :-)

I almost feel bad about asking, but why would someone want to hook up a keyboard to a car battery? :-P
Why wouldn't they?


You can test the protection circuitry! Or plug it into the voltage regulator for added power of the chips (though this would likely cause the VR to heat up too much) etc.

I dunno: everytime someone asks that question, I feel obligated to come up with an anwser. Must be the engineer in me.

Offline Input Nirvana

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #139 on: Tue, 17 January 2012, 18:23:23 »
Input Nirvana input:

"Because you can."
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
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Offline sordna

  • Posts: 2245
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #140 on: Tue, 17 January 2012, 18:24:57 »
Come on guys, everyone know that you would do that (along with some minor circuitry) in order to convert your keyboard's USB hub to a powered one when you're on the road.

EDIT: My older Kinesis #110 has been shipped and started its journey. Enjoy trying out the rare doubleshot keycaps it has, since we're discussing keycaps here...
« Last Edit: Tue, 17 January 2012, 18:27:57 by sordna »
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Input Nirvana

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #141 on: Tue, 17 January 2012, 19:53:19 »
We need Sordna-Kinesis Trakker (like Santa Tracker at xmas) with tracking numbers and a map so we can all get in on the action.
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
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Offline boli

  • Posts: 342
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #142 on: Wed, 18 January 2012, 01:52:43 »
Nevermind about ordering blank key cap sets from Kinesis. Rick replied the following to clear up my misunderstanding:
Quote
I just double checked and unfortunately it's 1,000 sets, not 1,000 total keycaps.

I then asked about the manufacturer, we'll see.
« Last Edit: Wed, 18 January 2012, 02:03:31 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline boli

  • Posts: 342
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #143 on: Wed, 25 January 2012, 12:07:36 »
No reply from Kinesis.

Anyway, we can replace all but the 4 tall thumb cluster keys, and I would like to do so. I did notice something though.

@IN: question about the replacements: you replaced both the P5 and P6 keys with R1 keys, even though P5 and P6 have a slightly different slope. Is the replacement really just one key type? (Edit: Yes they are; I'm an idiot for asking and could have checked out my own keyboard right away)

Assuming the above replacement is acceptable the total order for one Advantage without 4 tall thumb keys would be:
  • 10   NUM   (1w)
  • 12   R3   (1w)
  • 12   R2   (1w)
  • 18   R1   (1w)
  • 8   R1   (1.25w)
  • 2   NUM_PAD_+   (2w)
  • 2   NUM_PAD_ENTER   (2w)

1w means width of one, 1.25w means width of 1.25, 2w means width of 2.

Update: More questions as I'm ordering. :)

Quote from: input nirvana;477340
For the right hand keywell/thumb cluster the "SPACE" key is an 'enter' key on a num pad. The "ENTER" key is a '+' key on a num pad. The 10 Black and blue keys with legends in this picture are original Kinesis key caps that don't have an exact replacement (yet). At this stage, everything is as original, no changes.

Are you sure about the Kinesis-ENTER key cap being the same as a WASD-Numpad "+"? It doesn't look right. WASD-R1 1x2 looks like a much better fit.

I do agree on the Kinesis-Space/Backspace, it does look like the WASD-Numpad "Enter"
« Last Edit: Wed, 25 January 2012, 14:23:39 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline boli

  • Posts: 342
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #144 on: Wed, 25 January 2012, 12:38:33 »
More questions as I'm ordering. :)

Quote from: input nirvana;477340
For the right hand keywell/thumb cluster the "SPACE" key is an 'enter' key on a num pad. The "ENTER" key is a '+' key on a num pad. The 10 Black and blue keys with legends in this picture are original Kinesis key caps that don't have an exact replacement (yet). At this stage, everything is as original, no changes.


Are you sure about the Kinesis-ENTER key cap being the same as a WASD-Numpad "+"? It doesn't look right.

I do agree on the Kinesis-Space/Backspace, it does look like the WASD-Numpad "Enter"
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline kps

  • Posts: 410
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #145 on: Wed, 25 January 2012, 12:56:08 »
I spent a week with num-row keys in place of the tall thumb keys. To compensate for the height difference, I replaced Delete and Enter with numpad-enter keys (i.e. like BackSpace and Space) and that worked well. I also replaced Home and PageUp with the next shorter keys, and that did not work so well — it was fine for the modifier, but made Home and PageUp harder to press.

Offline boli

  • Posts: 342
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #146 on: Wed, 25 January 2012, 13:06:06 »
Cheers for the update kps.

I'm not going to mess around with the tall thumb keys at all, because these as well as the Home key  (serves as Ctrl for me) are crucial for me.

So I just ordered a full set of dark grey blank key caps, with the option of black thumb keys, because I plan to leave the 4 tall keys in place, so they'll stay black; also I think the Delete/Enter key replacements won't have the correct shape so I might leave those as well (looking forward to IN's answer to questions above). I threw in an optional orange WASD cluster (though for me it will be FRST), as well as optional orange home keys. I also ordered extra pairs of the 1.25 wide keys in various colors to play around with, and a set of 40A o-rings.

Damn you GH, making me spend $138 ($10 is international slow shipping) plus VAT/customs... :P
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Input Nirvana

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #147 on: Wed, 25 January 2012, 13:52:16 »
Quote from: boli;498732
No reply from Kinesis.

Anyway, we can replace all but the 4 tall thumb cluster keys, and I would like to do so. I did notice something though.

@IN: question about the replacements: you replaced both the P5 and P6 keys with R1 keys, even though P5 and P6 have a slightly different slope. Is the replacement really just one key type?

Assuming the above replacement is acceptable the total order for one Advantage without 4 tall thumb keys would be:
  • 10    NUM    (1w)
  • 12    R3    (1w)
  • 12    R2    (1w)
  • 18    R1    (1w)
  • 8    R1    (1.25w)
  • 2    NUM_PAD_+    (2w)
  • 2    NUM_PAD_ENTER    (2w)
1w means width of one, 1.25w means width of 1.25, 2w means width of 2.

Update: More questions as I'm ordering. :)



Are you sure about the Kinesis-ENTER key cap being the same as a WASD-Numpad "+"? It doesn't look right. WASD-R1 1x2 looks like a much better fit.

I do agree on the Kinesis-Space/Backspace, it does look like the WASD-Numpad "Enter"

NOOOOOOOOOO!!!! I made a mistake with all the keys in front of me. The ENTER key is an R1 1x2 key!!!!!!!
On the later Advantage, the P5 and P6 key caps are the same, and it works just fine that way, so the single replacement is just fine as well.
Follow up with Rick.

Quote from: kps;498785
I spent a week with num-row keys in place of the tall thumb keys. To compensate for the height difference, I replaced Delete and Enter with numpad-enter keys (i.e. like BackSpace and Space) and that worked well. I also replaced Home and PageUp with the next shorter keys, and that did not work so well — it was fine for the modifier, but made Home and PageUp harder to press.

Digesting this. But I'm thinking the only real answer is the 4 tall key caps regardless. The whole thumb cluster needs to work together, so it all works, or it all doesn't work, yes?

Quote from: boli;498791
Cheers for the update kps.

I'm not going to mess around with the tall thumb keys at all, because these as well as the Home key  (serves as Ctrl for me) are crucial for me.

So I just ordered a full set of dark grey blank key caps, with the option of black thumb keys, because I plan to leave the 4 tall keys in place, so they'll stay black; also I think the Delete/Enter key replacements won't have the correct shape so I might leave those as well (looking forward to IN's answer to questions above). I threw in an optional orange WASD cluster (though for me it will be FRST), as well as optional orange home keys. I also ordered extra pairs of the 1.25 wide keys in various colors to play around with, and a set of 40A o-rings.

Damn you GH, making me spend $138 ($10 is international slow shipping) plus VAT/customs... :P

Make the ENTER, DELETE key cap correction!!!!!!!

*** I need to review this info tonight/tomorrow and make updates to the "INFO" post****
« Last Edit: Wed, 25 January 2012, 13:55:01 by input nirvana »
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
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Offline Input Nirvana

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #148 on: Wed, 25 January 2012, 13:59:51 »
Boli, confirm the key cap mistake. I just sent a PM as well. I'll send email to WASD if I don't get confirmation from you in a few minutes about the key cap mistake.
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Staying in touch via Tapatalk VIP                                        Thanks much, Smallfry  
I AM THE REAPER . . . BECAUSE I KILL IT
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Offline boli

  • Posts: 342
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #149 on: Wed, 25 January 2012, 14:06:28 »
Hey IN, cheers for the update. Unfortunately I had already placed the order, but later replied to my order confirmation asking if they could swap the keys (I was pretty sure even though you had not replied yet). :)
We'll see what they answer, if they can't change it no biggie (the R1 2x1 key costs more than the Numpad key too), I might leave the thumb cluster alone anyway (because of the tall keys), and this will probably not be my last order at WASD either.
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com