Author Topic: kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations  (Read 156095 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Input Nirvana

  • Master of the Calculated Risk
  • Posts: 2313
  • Location: Somewhere in the San Francisco Bay area/Best Coast
  • If I tell ya, I'll hafta kill ya
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #150 on: Wed, 25 January 2012, 14:10:40 »
When did you order? I need to be more careful :(

If you get stuck with wrong keys, I'll take care of it. I don't want that hanging over my head :(

EDIT---- I am totally committed to the exact replacements. If we don't find the tall keys in the next 2 months or so, I will make keys caps (see GH thread on this). There aren't that many of us that need this, so once I can get it right, I can pump out a couple dozen easy enough.

I finish my project in March, and will be home and have the time to do this at that time.
« Last Edit: Wed, 25 January 2012, 14:14:51 by input nirvana »
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Staying in touch via Tapatalk VIP                                        Thanks much, Smallfry  
I AM THE REAPER . . . BECAUSE I KILL IT
~retired from forum activities 2015~

Offline boli

  • Posts: 342
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #151 on: Wed, 25 January 2012, 14:15:13 »
Quote from: input nirvana;498851
When did you order? I need to be more careful :(

If you get stuck with wrong keys, I'll take care of it. I don't want that hanging over my head :(

The confirmation mail says 19:55, that's 10:55 am PST I think. But seriously don't worry about it, not your fault, I could have waited - but I was so eager. Only after ordering did I spend more time looking at the fotos and my own keyboard and noticed that R1 1x2 looks much better. :)
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Input Nirvana

  • Master of the Calculated Risk
  • Posts: 2313
  • Location: Somewhere in the San Francisco Bay area/Best Coast
  • If I tell ya, I'll hafta kill ya
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #152 on: Wed, 25 January 2012, 14:25:34 »
Quote from: boli;498859
The confirmation mail says 19:55, that's 10:55 am PST I think. But seriously don't worry about it, not your fault, I could have waited - but I was so eager. Only after ordering did I spend more time looking at the fotos and my own keyboard and noticed that R1 1x2 looks much better. :)

Boli:
Spoke to Weyman, the change will be made to the R1 1x2 keys.

We, as a group, need to put together the info for WASD and he will create a Kinesis 'set' we can order at the drop of a hat, at a good price point with the usual available options.

*just need those damn tall keys!!*
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Staying in touch via Tapatalk VIP                                        Thanks much, Smallfry  
I AM THE REAPER . . . BECAUSE I KILL IT
~retired from forum activities 2015~

Offline boli

  • Posts: 342
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #153 on: Wed, 25 January 2012, 14:29:46 »
Quote from: input nirvana;498870
Boli:
Spoke to Weyman, the change will be made to the R1 1x2 keys.

We, as a group, need to put together the info for WASD and he will create a Kinesis 'set' we can order at the drop of a hat, at a good price point with the usual available options.

*just those damn tall keys!!*

Thanks a bunch IN! They haven't replied to my mail yet, I wonder how I can pay the extra dollar (the R1 1x2 cost $1.25 vs the Numpad+ $1, and I ordered 2 black 2 dark gray).

As for the info, this is it for a Kinesis set without the 4 tall thumb keys:
  • 10   R4   (1w)
  • 12   R3   (1w)
  • 12   R2   (1w)
  • 18   R1   (1w)
  • 8   R1   (1.25w)
  • 2   R1 1x2   (2w)
  • 2   NumpadEnter   (2w)

BTW this set costs $66.50 normally (blank, dunno about engraving cost).
« Last Edit: Wed, 25 January 2012, 14:44:05 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Input Nirvana

  • Master of the Calculated Risk
  • Posts: 2313
  • Location: Somewhere in the San Francisco Bay area/Best Coast
  • If I tell ya, I'll hafta kill ya
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #154 on: Wed, 25 January 2012, 15:00:59 »
What was the method of payment? If there's an issue, I'll spot you the $1 USD, with interest, compounded hourly, minimum 90 day terms. I'll need collateral, preferably a Kinesis keyboard, but almost anything will do. lol

All those colored keys in the pics I have to figure this out and swap/try profiles with are on loan, gratis, or toss aways from WASD to the cause. I tried to pay him a retainer to keep it easy, but he told me to leave. I think I wore him out. :) Joking, he's a great guy.

EDIT---Just added the Boli key cap list to the end of the *INFO* post #83. The entire post will be cleaned up and modified today/tomorrow.
« Last Edit: Wed, 25 January 2012, 15:08:07 by input nirvana »
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Staying in touch via Tapatalk VIP                                        Thanks much, Smallfry  
I AM THE REAPER . . . BECAUSE I KILL IT
~retired from forum activities 2015~

Offline kps

  • Posts: 410
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #155 on: Wed, 25 January 2012, 15:50:40 »
Quote from: input nirvana;498834
Digesting this. But I'm thinking the only real answer is the 4 tall key caps regardless. The whole thumb cluster needs to work together, so it all works, or it all doesn't work, yes?


Yes, I agree. I wonder if there's a possibility of getting num-profile keys with a longer stem SP offers their MX keys with several different stem lengths, so perhaps WASD's supplier does likewise.

Offline sordna

  • Posts: 2245
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #156 on: Wed, 25 January 2012, 15:59:12 »
I just noticed that the tall keys are more slanted than the num row keys, so even with longer stems they wouldn't be quite the same.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline boli

  • Posts: 342
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #157 on: Wed, 25 January 2012, 16:33:40 »
Quote from: input nirvana;498890
What was the method of payment? If there's an issue, I'll spot you the $1 USD, with interest, compounded hourly, minimum 90 day terms. I'll need collateral, preferably a Kinesis keyboard, but almost anything will do. lol

All those colored keys in the pics I have to figure this out and swap/try profiles with are on loan, gratis, or toss aways from WASD to the cause.

I Paid by paypal and could do so again np. :)

They haven't replied to my mail yet, but I'm sure it will be OK. Happy to get the right keys in any case. And sweet of WASD to throw in your test keys. :)

Now let's see if any suitable tall thumb keys can be found to complete the set. I guess any tall key might serve as long as the (possibly different) slant isn't uncomfortable.

Also we probably all got 2 extras of those keys with our Kinesis boards to account for the various OSs, so one could use them to try "blanking" them. Maybe then they would fit nicely with the other blank black WASD thumb cluster keys.
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Input Nirvana

  • Master of the Calculated Risk
  • Posts: 2313
  • Location: Somewhere in the San Francisco Bay area/Best Coast
  • If I tell ya, I'll hafta kill ya
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #158 on: Thu, 26 January 2012, 11:31:36 »
There are a couple methods to 'blank' a key, depending on how the legend is applied. It's kind of a drag no matter what :(
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Staying in touch via Tapatalk VIP                                        Thanks much, Smallfry  
I AM THE REAPER . . . BECAUSE I KILL IT
~retired from forum activities 2015~

Offline boli

  • Posts: 342
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #159 on: Thu, 26 January 2012, 14:06:32 »
Quote from: input nirvana;499622
There are a couple methods to 'blank' a key, depending on how the legend is applied. It's kind of a drag no matter what :(

As long as they're not doubleshots it can't be too bad, can it? :P
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Input Nirvana

  • Master of the Calculated Risk
  • Posts: 2313
  • Location: Somewhere in the San Francisco Bay area/Best Coast
  • If I tell ya, I'll hafta kill ya
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #160 on: Thu, 26 January 2012, 15:20:12 »
A couple different types of sandpaper :(

That's no fun.
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Staying in touch via Tapatalk VIP                                        Thanks much, Smallfry  
I AM THE REAPER . . . BECAUSE I KILL IT
~retired from forum activities 2015~

Offline boli

  • Posts: 342
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #161 on: Thu, 26 January 2012, 16:46:17 »
One of these days I'll give it a try. :)

BTW Weyman replied to my mail, it's all OK and shipping today! \o/

Of course I couldn't help asking about the tall thumb cluster keys, which got me rambling, so I more or less summarized the results of this thread into the mail. I hope he doesn't miss the question in that wall of text. ;)

I'm looking forward to the new key caps and o-rings, lots of stuff to play around with. I'm also wondering how well the replacement 1.25 keys will work, particularly the top left and right corner ones. The WASD replacements of those seem to be the most different from the Kinesis originals (not counting the tall thumb keys, which seem irreplaceable for now).
« Last Edit: Thu, 26 January 2012, 16:48:26 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline boli

  • Posts: 342
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #162 on: Thu, 26 January 2012, 17:24:41 »
Quick reply from WASD, doesn't look good for the tall thumb keys. He says his supplier won't have them as they're too unique, having them made (requires new tooling etc.) wouldn't be economical given the likely rather low demand, and the same applies for having them sourced by Kinesis's supplier, hundreds/thousands of keys in various colors for just 4 keys in each set... so we're stuck with the originals for now.

@Input Nirvana: While I replied to Weyman I started wondering: have you tried the R1 1.25 keys for the top left/right corners both ways? If used the wrong way the slant would be more like the original, however the height would be lower.
« Last Edit: Thu, 26 January 2012, 17:26:48 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline sordna

  • Posts: 2245
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #163 on: Thu, 26 January 2012, 17:33:58 »
You could always mod keys, cut off stems from donor keys and glue them on keycaps that you want to make taller (making their stems extra long).
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Input Nirvana

  • Master of the Calculated Risk
  • Posts: 2313
  • Location: Somewhere in the San Francisco Bay area/Best Coast
  • If I tell ya, I'll hafta kill ya
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #164 on: Thu, 26 January 2012, 18:33:29 »
Quote from: boli;500017
Quick reply from WASD, doesn't look good for the tall thumb keys. He says his supplier won't have them as they're too unique, having them made (requires new tooling etc.) wouldn't be economical given the likely rather low demand, and the same applies for having them sourced by Kinesis's supplier, hundreds/thousands of keys in various colors for just 4 keys in each set... so we're stuck with the originals for now.

@Input Nirvana: While I replied to Weyman I started wondering: have you tried the R1 1.25 keys for the top left/right corners both ways? If used the wrong way the slant would be more like the original, however the height would be lower.

Yes, turned the existing key around and the 3 lower keys around, it was not good, the key rubbed. Double check this, I've been making a lot of mistakes lately :)

Yes, when Weyman saw the tall keys, he became exasperated "Where are THESE from???" lol

Quote from: sordna;500026
You could always mod keys, cut off stems from donor keys and glue them on keycaps that you want to make taller (making their stems extra long).

Quite a few people have done this, it must work well. It sure seems to me it wouldn't though. Need to check the slant of the 4 keys first, then determine the height adjustment. Someone else needs to go first. My confidence is low. I'd rather make keys from molds and have more options. Oh yea, I'm gonna do that with my first spare $100 and 2 free days :)
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Staying in touch via Tapatalk VIP                                        Thanks much, Smallfry  
I AM THE REAPER . . . BECAUSE I KILL IT
~retired from forum activities 2015~

Offline erw

  • Posts: 103
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #165 on: Sun, 29 January 2012, 15:01:12 »
Quote from: input nirvana;500091
Quite a few people have done this, it must work well. It sure seems to me it wouldn't though. Need to check the slant of the 4 keys first, then determine the height adjustment. Someone else needs to go first. My confidence is low. I'd rather make keys from molds and have more options. Oh yea, I'm gonna do that with my first spare $100 and 2 free days :)


I don't think any of the keys have the same slope as the modifiers. The closest I think you can get is an R2 turned upside down. This will stick out in most places, but it might actually work at the that exact location above delete or enter if the stem was extended. Anyway, I think a NUM key is close enough but I plan to test this.

I have liberated a stem from a spare key, but what is a good way to affix it to a NUM key? Will hot glue be strong enough? Btw, my spare stem is 7.5 mm and a NUM key needs about 3.0 mm extra to match the modifier height.
Kinesis Advantage LF (MX Red), Kinesis Advantage (MX Brown), Ergodox (MX Red), Colemak

Offline kps

  • Posts: 410
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #166 on: Mon, 30 January 2012, 08:44:36 »
Quote from: erw;502524
I have liberated a stem from a spare key, but what is a good way to affix it to a NUM key? Will hot glue be strong enough? Btw, my spare stem is 7.5 mm and a NUM key needs about 3.0 mm extra to match the modifier height.

Assuming both are ABS, I would use ABS cement (which is really a solvent weld). Look in the plumbing section of your local hardware store.

Offline Input Nirvana

  • Master of the Calculated Risk
  • Posts: 2313
  • Location: Somewhere in the San Francisco Bay area/Best Coast
  • If I tell ya, I'll hafta kill ya
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #167 on: Mon, 30 January 2012, 10:19:32 »
Different TYPES of glue for different situations. Not always about sheer strength. Hot glue would not be a good method for what you are proposing unless you filled the entire underside of the key cap :)

The ABS solvent (ever see the purple stains around white, plastic (ABS) pipes? Or 2 part epoxies from hardware stores (in little matching toothpaste-like tubes).

If you have never used any of these glues, you'll want to sample-glue something to get a feel for the 'working time'.
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Staying in touch via Tapatalk VIP                                        Thanks much, Smallfry  
I AM THE REAPER . . . BECAUSE I KILL IT
~retired from forum activities 2015~

Offline kps

  • Posts: 410
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #168 on: Mon, 30 January 2012, 11:06:06 »
Quote from: input nirvana;503181
Not always about sheer strength.


Or even shear strengh. :dance:

Offline Input Nirvana

  • Master of the Calculated Risk
  • Posts: 2313
  • Location: Somewhere in the San Francisco Bay area/Best Coast
  • If I tell ya, I'll hafta kill ya
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #169 on: Mon, 30 January 2012, 17:46:03 »
lol  

Good one
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Staying in touch via Tapatalk VIP                                        Thanks much, Smallfry  
I AM THE REAPER . . . BECAUSE I KILL IT
~retired from forum activities 2015~

Offline erw

  • Posts: 103
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #170 on: Mon, 30 January 2012, 18:07:16 »
ololol :-P

Until I get to gluing, I have to actually get this stem cut down to 3 mm. It's pretty hard actually using only a cutting board and a sheath knife from when I was a boy scout :bowl:

It's so small!

.
.
.

The stem.

Not the knife.
Kinesis Advantage LF (MX Red), Kinesis Advantage (MX Brown), Ergodox (MX Red), Colemak

Offline erw

  • Posts: 103
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #171 on: Mon, 30 January 2012, 18:32:16 »
F*cksticks! Now I cut too much off.


Well, it's only a test. But I don't feel like doing this for four modifiers on each of my boards -_-
Kinesis Advantage LF (MX Red), Kinesis Advantage (MX Brown), Ergodox (MX Red), Colemak

Offline Input Nirvana

  • Master of the Calculated Risk
  • Posts: 2313
  • Location: Somewhere in the San Francisco Bay area/Best Coast
  • If I tell ya, I'll hafta kill ya
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #172 on: Mon, 30 January 2012, 19:39:11 »
Seriously, mark April on your calendar, if replacement keycaps aren't located, I'll make them. I'll send them for the cost of shipping only to you Euro guys.
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Staying in touch via Tapatalk VIP                                        Thanks much, Smallfry  
I AM THE REAPER . . . BECAUSE I KILL IT
~retired from forum activities 2015~

Offline erw

  • Posts: 103
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #173 on: Tue, 31 January 2012, 08:36:25 »
That nice of you. The least we could do was pay the shipping when you're taking time to make them :-)
Kinesis Advantage LF (MX Red), Kinesis Advantage (MX Brown), Ergodox (MX Red), Colemak

Offline sordna

  • Posts: 2245
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #174 on: Tue, 31 January 2012, 12:00:30 »
Quote from: boli;498872
Thanks a bunch IN! They haven't replied to my mail yet, I wonder how I can pay the extra dollar (the R1 1x2 cost $1.25 vs the Numpad+ $1, and I ordered 2 black 2 dark gray).

As for the info, this is it for a Kinesis set without the 4 tall thumb keys:
  • 10   R4   (1w)
  • 12   R3   (1w)
  • 12   R2   (1w)
  • 18   R1   (1w)
  • 8   R1   (1.25w)
  • 2   R1 1x2   (2w)
  • 2   NumpadEnter   (2w)


BTW this set costs $66.50 normally (blank, dunno about engraving cost).


You could possibly bring the price down by ordering an existing keycap set, perhaps an 87 key set at $36.99 and the individual missing keys. The 104 set is an especially good deal at $39.99.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline erw

  • Posts: 103
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #175 on: Tue, 31 January 2012, 12:17:19 »
Quote from: sordna;504277
You could possibly bring the price down by ordering an existing keycap set, perhaps an 87 key set at $36.99 and the individual missing keys. The 104 set is an especially good deal at $39.99.


I was kind of hoping there would be a Kinesis set with a similar price reduction compared to ordering single keys. Maybe we could get such a set even though it is not complete yet.

Btw, how slow/fast is wasd with replying to emails?
Kinesis Advantage LF (MX Red), Kinesis Advantage (MX Brown), Ergodox (MX Red), Colemak

Offline boli

  • Posts: 342
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #176 on: Tue, 31 January 2012, 12:58:18 »
Quote from: erw;504304
I was kind of hoping there would be a Kinesis set with a similar price reduction compared to ordering single keys. Maybe we could get such a set even though it is not complete yet.

Btw, how slow/fast is wasd with replying to emails?

Got reply to my first the next day, the second in a few minutes.

I also asked if they'll make a semi complete set available if tests prove it's good enough, no reply yet. He did reply thoroughly to other stuff... will ask again when/if I'm happy with the key caps. :)
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline sordna

  • Posts: 2245
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #177 on: Tue, 31 January 2012, 13:06:08 »
The only issue I have with fresh keycaps, is they are soooo tight. Lately I've been loosening them up with a large philips screwdriver, since I hate it when sometimes a tight keycaps pops off the switch cover when you pull it.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline boli

  • Posts: 342
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #178 on: Wed, 01 February 2012, 07:35:15 »
WASD package just arrived!

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 39217[/ATTACH]

Applied a few o-rings to the right home row keys to compare feeling to the unmodded left side, and one to the backspace thumb key. The shorter travel feels weird ATM, let's see what happens once I'm used to it - previously I thought I'd really like shorter travel, we'll see if my expectations were correct. Noise is about the same unless bottoming out, which at work often happens with thumb keys, probably less with the others.

Some sad news:

While the invoice looks as if they exchanged the wrong keys I ordered...
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 39218[/ATTACH]

...the actual keys were not replaced. :(
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 39219[/ATTACH]

Keys on the left are the correct ones, those on the right are not (as you can see when looking at the Kinesis originals). R1 1x2 should look like this.
« Last Edit: Wed, 01 February 2012, 07:44:35 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline kps

  • Posts: 410
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #179 on: Wed, 01 February 2012, 09:33:19 »
Quote from: boli;505151
...the actual keys were not replaced. :(
Unfortunate, but I doubt it will be a problem in practice. I spent a week with all num-enter and the difference was essentially unnoticable.

Offline sordna

  • Posts: 2245
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #180 on: Wed, 01 February 2012, 10:30:40 »
He got numpad-plus, which when used as Delete/Enter make it hard to press Home/End/PgUp/PgDown without interfering, I just tried it.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline boli

  • Posts: 342
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #181 on: Wed, 01 February 2012, 16:12:51 »
Quote from: sordna;505283
He got numpad-plus, which when used as Delete/Enter make it hard to press Home/End/PgUp/PgDown without interfering, I just tried it.

Exactly. I don't use those keys too much so it could be acceptable for now. Edit: except the Ctrl key. :( (Home on default Kinesis. Check out my custom layout in sig for reference)

Update: Somehow pics/attachments don't show up properly here, seems to work in this post.
« Last Edit: Wed, 01 February 2012, 18:21:48 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline sordna

  • Posts: 2245
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #182 on: Wed, 01 February 2012, 16:34:52 »
Are the keys light or dark gray ? They look pretty light but can't tell for sure.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline boli

  • Posts: 342
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #183 on: Wed, 01 February 2012, 16:37:41 »
They are dark gray, but I hoped they'd be darker too. They do match the WASD keycap colors pic quite well.

Updated previous post with new pic.

Also: I already accustomed to the shorter travel and less noise because of o-rings, and I love it! Too bad the 125 pieces set isn't enough for 2 keyboards (136 needed), so I left a few keys without o-rings.

Update:
Weyman from WASD keyboards replied with this:
Quote
Sorry about that. That's pretty frustrating for me too as I totally wrote it there but my employee pulled the order with the description column and didn't look the other column!

I'll have replacements sent out right away and, of course, you can keep the wrong keycaps.

Very good customer service indeed, I'm impressed. :)
« Last Edit: Thu, 02 February 2012, 02:57:57 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Input Nirvana

  • Master of the Calculated Risk
  • Posts: 2313
  • Location: Somewhere in the San Francisco Bay area/Best Coast
  • If I tell ya, I'll hafta kill ya
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #184 on: Thu, 02 February 2012, 16:00:47 »
I've said it before, Weyman is great, a real solid guy. The kind of person you invite with his girlfriend to your house for barbecues every weekend. Heeeyyyy....that's a good idea!

So I'm not surprised by his service, he's the type of person that can't be any other way. :)

GO TEAM WASD KEYBOARDS!!!!
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Staying in touch via Tapatalk VIP                                        Thanks much, Smallfry  
I AM THE REAPER . . . BECAUSE I KILL IT
~retired from forum activities 2015~

Offline boli

  • Posts: 342
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #185 on: Thu, 02 February 2012, 18:17:41 »
Quote from: sordna;504277
You could possibly bring the price down by ordering an existing keycap set, perhaps an 87 key set at $36.99 and the individual missing keys. The 104 set is an especially good deal at $39.99.

Indeed, I just checked out the 3 different sets WASD provides, plus the cost of the extra keys needed:
Moved more complete info to newer post below.
« Last Edit: Mon, 06 February 2012, 13:35:05 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline sordna

  • Posts: 2245
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #186 on: Thu, 02 February 2012, 18:40:12 »
Cool, $43.24 sure beats $66.50. Hmm, there's also the numpad (17 keys for $9.99) to consider in the various combinations.
But I do like the 104 + 4 extra keys option, makes it much easier/faster to order, and less chance for errors.

Anyway, based on all this, WASD should offer a Kinesis blank keycap set for around $35 (with num row keys as a compromise for the 4 tall keys, for a full set). I think $35 for a 68 key set would be fair. For sure it shouldn't exceed the 87 key cap set price.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline boli

  • Posts: 342
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #187 on: Thu, 02 February 2012, 18:47:56 »
Agreed. :)

I just placed an order for a black engraved Colemak 104 set, and have asked Weyman what font and size they use by default (he's quick: arial 8 pt) so I can match the other keys with my next order - separate orders for tax/customs reason, if it's below ~$68 (including shipping) I won't have to pay tax/customs. The handling fee was almost twice as much as tax with the last order, I'd like to avoid that. :P
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline erw

  • Posts: 103
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #188 on: Thu, 02 February 2012, 18:48:37 »
Cool.. good to know. Do your counts treat keys with dots/lines (qwerty F and J, numpad 5) separately?
Kinesis Advantage LF (MX Red), Kinesis Advantage (MX Brown), Ergodox (MX Red), Colemak

Offline boli

  • Posts: 342
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #189 on: Thu, 02 February 2012, 19:11:47 »
Ouch, individual lasered keys cost $7, and one needs not just 4, but all 8 side keys (the 1.25 wide ones), plus at least 6 R1 keys for `~, Insert, [{, ]}, End, PageDown, plus 2 R3 keys for 3# and 8*. I guess Home and PageUp might be R4 already. And finally one needs the 4 long thumb keys, of which Delete and Enter possibly can't be ordered because they're rotated by 90 degrees from a normal keyboard.

Quote from: erw;506769
Cool.. good to know. Do your counts treat keys with dots/lines (qwerty F and J, numpad 5) separately?

I counted the 2 lined keys (as I will use them), but not the dotted key (won't be used).
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Input Nirvana

  • Master of the Calculated Risk
  • Posts: 2313
  • Location: Somewhere in the San Francisco Bay area/Best Coast
  • If I tell ya, I'll hafta kill ya
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #190 on: Fri, 03 February 2012, 01:42:45 »
This info about WASD customizing keycaps for Colemak for you should get posted on the Colmak forums  :)
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Staying in touch via Tapatalk VIP                                        Thanks much, Smallfry  
I AM THE REAPER . . . BECAUSE I KILL IT
~retired from forum activities 2015~

Offline Input Nirvana

  • Master of the Calculated Risk
  • Posts: 2313
  • Location: Somewhere in the San Francisco Bay area/Best Coast
  • If I tell ya, I'll hafta kill ya
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #191 on: Mon, 06 February 2012, 02:40:55 »
6 FEB 2012, 12:35am-----

Geekhack got hacked, but before it was reloaded, Dox had posted about finding the 4 tall keys in the thumb clusters from Signature Plastics. I know that SP used to make the double shot keys for the Kinesis. So the question is whether they still offer the tall keys single shot or double shot.

Dox, can you post again regarding this? Include whatever info you have if possible.

I'll send off an email to them now to see if I can get the ball rolling (if this is a key cap they currently have).

EDIT----
(this is a quick note I have sent, just to get a response. I'll follow up if I don't here back in 2 days).

Hello,

We are looking for key caps for the Kinesis Advantage. I believe you used to be the manufacturer of these keys when they were 2 shot in the 1990's. I don't know anything else.

We either need the entire keycap set, or at least some of the "Kinesis Advantage" specific key caps (ie: the 4 uppermost keys in the thumb clusters)

If there is any information you have on this, and whether these items are for sale, please contact me.

Thank you,
« Last Edit: Mon, 06 February 2012, 02:49:58 by input nirvana »
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Staying in touch via Tapatalk VIP                                        Thanks much, Smallfry  
I AM THE REAPER . . . BECAUSE I KILL IT
~retired from forum activities 2015~

Offline boli

  • Posts: 342
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #192 on: Mon, 06 February 2012, 03:22:28 »
Quote from: input nirvana;507143
Geekhack got hacked, but before it was reloaded, ...

OT forum noob question: where do you get info like this? I looked for official word for the reload last week, and didn't find anything other than some people referring to a "restore from backup" and stuff like that. Nothing in the site announcements either.

Back on topic: IIRC Dox mentioned that SP at some point charged $20 for individual key caps in low volume, which is a bit much, and as we only need 4 per keyboard I dunno if a group buy (of what, 5 people?) would change that.
« Last Edit: Mon, 06 February 2012, 03:25:47 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline sordna

  • Posts: 2245
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #193 on: Mon, 06 February 2012, 09:32:20 »
Probably $20 applies to custom made color/printed keys? But we are talking blanks, no? If they already have blanks at a size taller than R1, we are probably set.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline boli

  • Posts: 342
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #194 on: Mon, 06 February 2012, 11:29:27 »
After having used blanks for a few days I noticed it's occasionally quite handy to have legends. While they're not needed for typing it's often nice to confirm at a glance that one's pressing the right key. Because of this I'd like to try engraved keys (I hope they ship soon :)), which do have a (subtle) legend, but still provide a cleaner look than normal legends. That's what I hope anyway, we'll see.

Edit: I just noticed that this week's forum restore (or whatever it was) brought back posts that were lost with last week's restore, however posts made since last week's restore are gone. Great. I did save one post in a text file, you can find it below (hopefully without the mistakes erw pointed out last week).

Quote from: sordna;504277
You could possibly bring the price down by ordering an existing keycap set, perhaps an 87 key set at $36.99 and the individual missing keys. The 104 set is an especially good deal at $39.99.

I checked out the prices with the 37, 87 and 104 key set from WASD, and it's definitely possible to save a few bucks with those if what you need is blank keys.

  • 104 key set: costs $39.99, you'll need just 3 extra keys: 1 extra R1 1x1.25, 1 R1 1x2, 1 NumPadEnter for a total cost of $43.49
  • 87 key set: costs $36.99, you'll need 10 extras: 1 R2, 4 R1, 1 R1 1x1.25, 2 R1 1x2, 2 NumPadEnter for a total cost of $47.74
  • 37 key set: costs $19.99, you'll need 27 extras: 10 R4, 1 R2, 4 R1, 8 R1 1x1.25, 2 R1 1x2, 2 NumPadEnter for a total cost of $49.49
  • 37 key set AND numpad set: together they cost $29.98, you'll need 16 extras: 6 R4, 8 R1 1x1.25, 1 R1 1x2, 1 NumPadEnter for a total cost of $44.23
These sets come with 2 keys with raised lines to mark the home position, which I included in the counts. If you don't like those small bumps you'll need 2 extra R2 keys. BTW the default font is Arial 8 pt, top left alignment (that's their modern layout).

While a basic engraved/edged 104 set costs only $10 more, one would have to get a lot of extra custom keys to complete a Kinesis Advantage set:
  • A 3 and 8 R3 key for the num row
  • The eight 1x1.25 R1 keys on the outer edges of the keyboard
  • Four R1 keys in the bottommost row: `, Insert, [ and ] (I assume the arrows in the 104 set are R1, which would fit well)
  • The four long thumb keys (two of which are usually sideways, so beware when lasering)
  • The End and PageDown thumb keys (I assume the Home and PageUp keys are R4 in the 104 set)
That's 20 custom keys, at $7 each they'd cost a small fortune. This is the point where a customizable Kinesis Advantage set would come in really handy.
US, Dvorak and Colemak are probably good starting points, but due to the easy "remappability" I guess many people have their own custom layout.
I guess this is a lot harder to do than a blank set, but I would definitely buy one (or two) if the price is reasonable.
Personally I ordered a black engraved Colemak 104 set, plus the missing keys as blanks. And I emailed all of this info to WASD.

A less expensive option which wouldn't require WASD to offer a Kinesis Advantage set would be to create a custom layout template for a Kinesis Advantage (which could be adjusted for individual custom layouts) and use the Custom Keyboard Designer to order key caps. When done right one would need only 3 extra custom keys (same as for the 104 set listed above). Cost would be $59.99 for the custom 104 key cap set, plus $21 for the 3 custom keys ($7 each).

If anyone is proficient with Adobe Illustrator or Corel Draw this shouldn't be too much work. Basically all the R1 1x1.25 keys which are normally used for 2x Ctrl, 2x Command/Win, 2x Alt, should be labeled as 7 of the 8 keys on the outer side of a Kinesis Advantage (=, Tab, CapsLock, 2x Shift, ', \ and -). The numpad area could probably be used to place keys like `, Insert, [, ], End, PageDown as well as Delete or Enter (matches numpad 0). The goal is to have the proper profile (R1 to R4) for these keys.
At this point I'm not 100% sure what profile of keys on the numpad or the area to the left of it are. I assume the bottom two rows are R1, then from bottom to top the rows are R2, R3 and the top 2 rows are R4).

BTW I ghetto adapted kps's key cap chart to show WASD keys (gah the forum effed up the pic, original is here):
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 39469[/ATTACH]
« Last Edit: Mon, 06 February 2012, 13:36:44 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline erw

  • Posts: 103
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #195 on: Mon, 06 February 2012, 14:45:53 »
I tried gluing my stem fragment to an R4 with hot glue, just to test it before I considered more extreme glues. It didn't endure being pulled off again, but here's how it looked:

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 39482[/ATTACH]

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 39483[/ATTACH]

Not the same slope as the tall modifiers, but pretty close.


I didn't seat it fully because I wanted to be able to get the 3 mm stem piece up, so you can see a bit of the red switch stem below. But even if fully seated, an R4 with stem extension will still leave a small gap between the keycap and the case.

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 39481[/ATTACH]

I like this pic, btw. f/2.8 :-)


Here are my normal modifiers fully seated:

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 39484[/ATTACH]
Kinesis Advantage LF (MX Red), Kinesis Advantage (MX Brown), Ergodox (MX Red), Colemak

Offline erw

  • Posts: 103
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #196 on: Mon, 06 February 2012, 14:51:11 »
Quote from: boli;507346
After having used blanks for a few days I noticed it's occasionally quite handy to have legends. While they're not needed for typing it's often nice to confirm at a glance that one's pressing the right key.


Is this for some types of keys in particular (letters, symbols) or just all of them?

Quote from: boli;507346
Edit: I just noticed that this week's forum restore (or whatever it was) brought back posts that were lost with last week's restore, however posts made since last week's restore are gone. Great. I did save one post in a text file


Good you had a backup :-)
Kinesis Advantage LF (MX Red), Kinesis Advantage (MX Brown), Ergodox (MX Red), Colemak

Offline boli

  • Posts: 342
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #197 on: Mon, 06 February 2012, 16:40:14 »
Quote from: erw;507450
Is this for some types of keys in particular (letters, symbols) or just all of them?

On the original Advantage LF the num row (which I moved one position to the left) doesn't have stickers with the proper labels on them, so on that particular board I sometimes catch myself picking the wrong symbol based on the misleading label when typing one of the shifted num row keys - though I can type the right symbol when not looking. :-/

With the letter keys I'm quite used to seeing the QWERTY label when looking, which I don't do when typing a sentence, but it might happen for say a particular keyboard shortcut, possibly unconsciously/automatically. I guess not looking is something to work on/get more used to, as apparently I look more than I thought I did.

The board with blank key caps will probably end up at home eventually and hopefully help with training. :) As an aside ATM that keyboard (a converted Advantage LF with o-rings) is with a work buddy. He's trying it out to compare to the other one without o-rings and brown switches he's been using on and off the last few days/weeks. He digs o-rings, is still unsure about the reds. He was also fiddling around with ControllerMate to be able to give my TE a test run. Who knows, could turn out to become a new member of this subforum. :D Speaking of which, another work buddy (former TypeMatrix user) with a brown TE of his own, and custom Dvorak layout should post around here soon, met him today for o-ring testing on my Advantage. So far o-rings are very well received, his will be the 4th bag ordered. ;)

At work I'd like to try a board with proper, if subtle, legends. Looking forward to it. :)

Quote
Good you had a backup :-)

Aye, even though it was a slightly outdated one, had to redo the fixes. ;)
« Last Edit: Mon, 06 February 2012, 16:50:12 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Dox

  • Posts: 298
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #198 on: Mon, 06 February 2012, 16:46:39 »
Ok, I'm back! and my post is gone...

What I said yesterday is that I found a few keys with the high profile of the thumb keys in my SP grab bag.
So, I'm pretty sure that SP can still do them.
Last time I ordered some non stocked keycaps from SP, I had to pay 20$ per keycap (I ordered 4 keycaps). What was for some blank PBT. Price will get lower in a group buy.
I have a Esc, F1, F2, F5, F6, F8, F9, / and Insert.
I was happy when I found those as they will probably be useful for my future ErgoDoxs!
ErgoDox x2 | DoxKB x2 |   IBM SSK   | HHKB pro2

Offline Input Nirvana

  • Master of the Calculated Risk
  • Posts: 2313
  • Location: Somewhere in the San Francisco Bay area/Best Coast
  • If I tell ya, I'll hafta kill ya
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #199 on: Mon, 06 February 2012, 16:51:58 »
The simple email answer from SP today is that they no longer have the tooling for the Kinesis Contoured line. :(

Someone, (I can't follow up properly at this time) could possibly get the info from Dox and figure out what he's got, if SP has it, and/or where that possibility may stand.

Other choices:
-We can see about removing legends from black and white key cap sets from Kinesis.
-We can find sphericals in other colors.
-We can make the missing keys in a couple months, unless someone else does it sooner.
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Staying in touch via Tapatalk VIP                                        Thanks much, Smallfry  
I AM THE REAPER . . . BECAUSE I KILL IT
~retired from forum activities 2015~