Author Topic: kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations  (Read 150452 times)

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Offline oneproduct

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #300 on: Fri, 02 March 2012, 00:09:25 »
Yup, you're right boli, I got those R1 and R4 confused. Fixed my post.
Layout: Colemak
Fastest typing speed: 131 WPM on typeracer, 136 WPM on 10fastfingers.
Daily driver: Filco Tenkeyless MX Brown with ergonomically weighted, lubed springs.
Ergo keyboards: Truly Ergonomic, Kinesis Advantage, Ergodox

Offline Dox

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #301 on: Fri, 02 March 2012, 15:32:16 »
I got the keyboard from sordna's kinesis try and forward tour and I can confirm that the high thumb keys on the 20 years old keyboard ARE Signature Plastics DCS row 5.
ErgoDox x2 | DoxKB x2 |   IBM SSK   | HHKB pro2

Offline Input Nirvana

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #302 on: Fri, 02 March 2012, 20:26:17 »
Quote from: Dox;533341
I got the keyboard from sordna's kinesis try and forward tour and I can confirm that the high thumb keys on the 20 years old keyboard ARE Signature Plastics DCS row 5.

HOLY ****!!!
Can you believe it??? Pics!!!
So, does that mean:
-ALL key cap issues are addressed on the Kinesis?
-We now know what every EXACT key replacement is?
-No key caps are "custom"?


How do you like the Kinesis? Maybe an Ergo-Dox tweak or two? OR maybe a Kinesis tweakie? LOL
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
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Offline sordna

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #303 on: Sat, 03 March 2012, 00:20:37 »
I don't know what they are, but these high doubleshot old kinesis keys are a bit lower than my modern kinesis' high keys.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Dox

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #304 on: Sat, 03 March 2012, 00:27:37 »
I haven't tried the kinesis much yet but first impressions are good!

Pics!!!
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 42515[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 42516[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 42517[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 42518[/ATTACH]
ErgoDox x2 | DoxKB x2 |   IBM SSK   | HHKB pro2

Offline Input Nirvana

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #305 on: Sat, 03 March 2012, 01:23:54 »
The single shot key caps have a taller skirt than the double shot key caps. You can see the extensive measurements and concise graphics Kps made earlier in this thread (posts #52, 54, 58). Same key cap, just a taller skirt. Kps measured the stem and the key top height is the same on the board. So it makes sense the double shot key caps from SP have the same dimensions...I discovered this earlier when I was at WASDKeyboards and figured out SP was the original key cap supplier for the Kinesis.

Dox, thank you for putting the star on the top of the tree! Crazy how it got figured out, too, heh heh :)

I guess I should go back and edit the big key cap page, or just post there to find the exact replacement list here. I'm limited to iPhone web access for a while, so most in depth posting/graphics/naked girls will be at a minimum. The post from Oneproduct, does it have the correct key cap designations for exact replacement now? (Ignoring color, type of plastic, legends, etc.)
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
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Offline boli

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #306 on: Sun, 04 March 2012, 05:04:32 »
Quote from: oneproduct;530638
If we do double shot ABS it will be much cheaper because we can get an alpha-numerial kit (number row, all letters, punctuation) for a reasonable price because they match with sets that can be ordered through the group buy whereas for PBT ones we'd be the only ones ordering them really.

So if you want to get a whole set in double shot ABS it's possible (with Colemak instead of qwerty at no additional cost) BUT if you want to do PBT (as I do) then it's better to buy a blank set from elsewhere at a cheaper price and just get the PBT keys that we couldn't find elsewhere from this group buy, which are the 8 side keys of size 1.25

Hmm, I couldn't find anywhere what material the ROUND3 doubleshots are. I assumed they were PBT, but if I understand you correctly they are in fact ABS? (If so I better adjust my order of the 1.25 wide side keys to match)

Quote from: input nirvana;533742
The single shot key caps have a taller skirt than the double shot key caps. You can see the extensive measurements and concise graphics Kps made earlier in this thread (posts #52, 54, 58). Same key cap, just a taller skirt.

I see, so that is where the difference comes from. Not an issue at all then! :)

Quote
Crazy how it got figured out, too, heh heh :)

So we have:
  • Alpha keys, extra bottom row, most thumb keys either from WASDkeyboards or round 4 group buy, with the exception of the 3 and 8 key (3 and 8 are only an issue if you want legends, no issue for blank key caps).
  • Side keys (1.25 wide) from round 4 group buy
  • Tall thumb keys from Signature Plastics
Correct?
« Last Edit: Sun, 04 March 2012, 05:06:45 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline dorkvader

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #307 on: Sun, 04 March 2012, 12:04:54 »
Quote from: boli;534761
Hmm, I couldn't find anywhere what material the ROUND3 doubleshots are. I assumed they were PBT, but if I understand you correctly they are in fact ABS? (If so I better adjust my order of the 1.25 wide side keys to match)
As far as I can tell, all doubleshots are ABS. I know for a fact that SP only does doubleshot ABS, so the round3 keys must be. I don't have any firsthand knowledge, as I didn't participate in round3, though.

Offline kps

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #308 on: Sun, 04 March 2012, 12:45:23 »
Quote from: dorkvader;534975
As far as I can tell, all doubleshots are ABS.

Yeah, PBT shrinks as it sets, so it's not practical to double-shot it.

Offline boli

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #309 on: Sun, 04 March 2012, 13:09:45 »
Thank you guys for the confirmation!
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Input Nirvana

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #310 on: Mon, 05 March 2012, 02:35:50 »
Quote from: boli;534761
So we have:
  • Alpha keys, extra bottom row, most thumb keys either from WASDkeyboards or round 4 group buy, with the exception of the 3 and 8 key (3 and 8 are only an issue if you want legends, no issue for blank key caps).
  • Side keys (1.25 wide) from round 4 group buy
  • Tall thumb keys from Signature Plastics
Correct?

- Is this correct? ^^^
- The tall thumb keys from SP, can they be blank doubleshot?
- The Group Buy 4, (ABS doubleshot) is that coming from SP?
- Now the keys are all figured out, is this something WASD could put together?
- Boli...any info from 7bit?

*Boli, "E" on the thumb cluster layout? Share???
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
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Offline boli

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #311 on: Mon, 05 March 2012, 03:16:52 »
Quote from: input nirvana;535519
- Is this correct? ^^^

I obviously think so, but having it double-checked by someone else can't hurt. :)

Quote
- The tall thumb keys from SP, can they be blank doubleshot?
- The Group Buy 4, (ABS doubleshot) is that coming from SP?

No idea. Dorkvader mentioned the leftover round3 doubleshots were from SP, dunno about the new round4 caps.

Quote
- Now the keys are all figured out, is this something WASD could put together?
- Boli...any info from 7bit?

Still haven't gotten a reply from 7bit. I assume we'll have to make do with getting the 1.25 wide side keys this time around, and will have to get SP DCS row 5 some other way.

Haven't heard from Weyman either, the last he wrote was that he'll make an extra layout template for us Kinesis Advantage users. I assume he's very busy with the fully custom ISO keyboards he introduced recently.
Was your idea to have Weyman order those 1.25 unit wide side keys, as well as the DCS row 5 from SP (or whoever makes them) so he can offer complete sets to us Kinesis users? I remember he won't laser key caps we send him because of the risk losing them on the way.

Quote
"E" on the thumb cluster layout? Share???
You can find out symphonic's and my own trials at the Colemak forum in Optimizing the Maltron layout. The idea is taking the Colemak layout, putting E on the left thumb, moving a few other letters around (as few as possible) and hopefully getting a good Malt-like layout.
At this stage we're just messing around, though a few of the basic ideas seem quite promising, and they feel alright in a quick tryout. Here's an example:
Code: [Select]
qwfp *  j luy;
arst g  h ndio
zxcv b  k m,./

     e  Space  
The * spot is unused. If I end up switching to this I might put Tab there, as I noticed during the TrulyErgonomic test that having Tab operated by the index finger feels very nice.
I'd like to use Michael ****en's layout analyzer/optimizer on those ideas, once it supports putting letters on the left thumb. The web analyzer as well as carPalx don't seem to be all that well suited to the task.
« Last Edit: Mon, 05 March 2012, 03:22:18 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline dorkvader

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #312 on: Mon, 05 March 2012, 14:21:53 »
Quote from: input nirvana;535519
- The Group Buy 4, (ABS doubleshot) is that coming from SP?
Yep, since devlin are expensive, unless something radical changes, Round4 should be through SP. I guess I'm the bridge to the GB forum? :P

Offline Input Nirvana

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #313 on: Mon, 05 March 2012, 16:37:45 »
Boli/Dorkvader-
Thank you for all the answers!

Boli-
Regarding the Malt Optimization thread on the Colemak forum, I hadn't checked up on that thread recently...and look what you guys have done! I think there is a major Kinesis-specific layout hidden in some on that work. In my split Kinesis mod article, I have a header and pics for the custom-optimized layout that should be developed. I'll need to link the Colemak thread, it's just that juicy :)
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
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Offline boli

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #314 on: Mon, 05 March 2012, 17:48:25 »
Quote from: dorkvader;535958
Yep, since devlin are expensive, unless something radical changes, Round4 should be through SP. I guess I'm the bridge to the GB forum? :P

Cheers! Wut there's stuff outside the ergo/layout subforums? ;) Seriously though, that round 4 thread is massive. Just saw posts about 4 separate group buys and whatnot, will need to read on. :)

Quote from: input nirvana;536100
Regarding the Malt Optimization thread on the Colemak forum, I hadn't checked up on that thread recently...and look what you guys have done! I think there is a major Kinesis-specific layout hidden in some on that work. In my split Kinesis mod article, I have a header and pics for the custom-optimized layout that should be developed.

I suppose you mean the "KEYBOARD KEY LAYOUT MODIFICATIONS" section? I was hoping for something more specific in there. ;) But it's nice to see you're also fascinated by the Malt premise of putting a letter on a thumb key. :) Other Kinesis specific layouts such as Arensito (which features a single thumb Shift, something tricky to combine with thumb letter+space) or the MTGAP Kinesis versions are also interesting... the latter might become more so once left thumb keys can be included in the optimizations/analysis.
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline sordna

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #315 on: Mon, 05 March 2012, 20:27:00 »
Once you add some thumb keys to the Kinesis it all falls into place, I can assign at least 2 letters on my thumb keys :-) Love my extra thumb keys, but I'll be adding palm keys very soon.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Input Nirvana

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #316 on: Mon, 05 March 2012, 22:43:34 »
Sordna:
I think that a majority of the performance gains are from adding only 2 thumb keys and that radically changes the Kinesis. More than 2 are still better though. I noted adding thumb keys in the "aircraft carrier" thread. :)

Boli:
Yea, it's chicken **** I don't have real, original content in the keyboard layout section yet. It is meant as a placeholder until I got around to playing with putting "E" on the left thumb cluster. But soon I'll link the threads/posts on GH and Colemak (and their links) as they develop/clarify a bit more.
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
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Offline dorkvader

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #317 on: Tue, 06 March 2012, 08:24:25 »
Quote from: sordna;536329
Once you add some thumb keys to the Kinesis it all falls into place, I can assign at least 2 letters on my thumb keys :-) Love my extra thumb keys, but I'll be adding palm keys very soon.
I assume the palm keys are for control?

Quote from: boli;536173
Cheers! Wut there's stuff outside the ergo/layout subforums? ;) Seriously though, that round 4 thread is massive. Just saw posts about 4 separate group buys and whatnot, will need to read on. :)
Yeah, there's a GB for red on black "ragnorock" which was invented, added to r4, then spun off. Since SP quoted lower prices to him, 7bit wants to "spin off" all the styles in an attempt to get lower pricing. Ofcourse the "special" addon kits are still expensive.

Also, since there are a number of similar GB's being run by people who want their moogle kits NOW, those have been detached. I've already got some excellent RGBY, and I'm participating in another RGBY, as well as WYSE (and maybe moogle) kit GB's.

Hah! I should write up a round4 timeline with all the details.

Offline sordna

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #318 on: Tue, 06 March 2012, 10:05:49 »
Quote from: dorkvader;536792
I assume the palm keys are for control?

No, they will be for shift and/or access to the 2nd layer.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #319 on: Wed, 07 March 2012, 14:52:32 »
Key issue has been one of the hardest to resolve, and has taken the most people!

I noticed that we, as a group, have made some very big headway with Kinesis issues recently. We now have almost fully addressed every aspect of the Kinesis (as broken down in the Split Kinesis Mod article) other than firmware. Just a few more incidental steps/trials/fine tuning, and the Kinesis project will have been effectively reverse engineered, upgraded, customized and rebuilt. This has been my goal from my first post (of 2,500 so far) over 2.5 years ago. There was almost NO Kinesis activity when I joined.

A few more months with practical applications of these advances, and my tenure here at Geekhack should be slowing to a graceful close. I had no idea the path would be so involved and convoluted. LOL
« Last Edit: Wed, 07 March 2012, 19:24:02 by input nirvana »
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
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Offline boli

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #320 on: Mon, 12 March 2012, 03:11:47 »
Did anyone else's round 4 group buy prices go up? The Colemak alpha set is $69 now, up from $39. :(

Code: [Select]
Order-ID           |Description                                  |Price|Qty|Pcs|Total
BLANK/R1U125/BLACK |Blank 1.25 units (row 1 / Function row) /50  | 2.00|  4|  4| 8.00
BLANK/R3U125/BLACK |Blank 1.25 units (row 3 / ASDFGH row) /50    | 2.00|  2|  2| 4.00
BLANK/R3U125X/BLACK|Blank 1.25 units (10x row 3 / ASDFGH row) /50|18.00|  1| 10|18.00
ROUND3/ALPHACOLEMAK|! A-Z and Punctuation keys COLEMAK           |69.00|  1| 53|69.00
Total              |                                             |     |   | 69|99.00

On another note, I'll ask Weyman about a the Kinesis template again.
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Input Nirvana

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #321 on: Mon, 12 March 2012, 18:48:06 »
$70 is too much in my opinion. If I wanted Colemak doublshots or PBT, I don't think I'd spend $70. I'm thinking my limit is about $45-$50 entire set for blank doubleshots exact replacements (I have not priced out black blank doubleshots or PBT). Plus a few extras for the added Kinesis mod keys.
« Last Edit: Mon, 12 March 2012, 18:50:18 by input nirvana »
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
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Offline Input Nirvana

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #322 on: Tue, 13 March 2012, 21:44:17 »
ZOIKS!!! I just read your invoice...it's $99 USD for the entire keyboard with Colemak and others are blanks...is it me or does that seem like a hell of a lot of money for a set of keycaps? Are these the doubleshot ABS? Maybe the blanks are cheaper, but with some of those caps costing $2 each, there's no way a complete replacement set will be in the $50-$60 dollar range that I think is reasonable. I can buy a lot of Guiness for that amount of money.

I guess I went to sleep last night and woke up this morning a cheap-ass.

I'm thinking about sanding a keycap per day and having smooth, legendless, pimp-daddy keycaps in 68 days all for the cost of a few pieces of sand paper.
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Staying in touch via Tapatalk VIP                                        Thanks much, Smallfry  
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Offline boli

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #323 on: Wed, 14 March 2012, 03:22:20 »
Yes, it did become quite expensive. I never had doubleshots, they could be worth it, I just don't know. $64 for just an alpha set, of which I can probably only use 30 key caps (not the num row, due to the different profile of the 3 and 8 keys) doesn't sound very attractive.

I'm currently checking out the prices of the other styles, here's the update (I checked by placing a preorder since the pricelist used to be off at times, but ATM it matches the email). I also had to check if the price was a mistake and alpha + colemak separately would come cheaper (it does!).
Code: [Select]
RETRO/ALPHA        |! A-Z and Punctuation keys                   |29.00|  1| 53| 29.00
RETRO/COLEMAK      |! Colemak language kit                       |29.00|  1| 14| 29.00
RETRO/ALPHACOLEMAK |! A-Z and Punctuation keys COLEMAK           |64.00|  1| 53| 64.00

ROUND3/ALPHA       |! A-Z and Punctuation keys                   |29.00|  1| 53| 29.00
ROUND3/COLEMAK     |! Colemak language kit                       |29.00|  1| 14| 29.00
ROUND3/ALPHACOLEMAK|! A-Z and Punctuation keys COLEMAK           |64.00|  1| 53| 64.00

SPH/ALPHA          |! A-Z and Punctuation keys                   |29.00|  1| 54| 29.00
SPH/COLEMAK        |Colemak language kit                         | 9.00|  1| 14|  9.00
SPH/ALPHACOLEMAK   |! A-Z and Punctuation keys COLEMAK           |54.00|  1| 54| 54.00

A fully customized set from WASDkeyboards (if Weyman comes through) would be $60, and apparently he might offer PBT keys in 4 to 6 months, so the WASD option is very tempting!
I might cancel all of my round 4 GB orders other than the 1.25 wide side keys, we'll see. I asked 7bit to clarify about the overpriced Colemak options.
« Last Edit: Wed, 14 March 2012, 03:32:49 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Input Nirvana

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #324 on: Wed, 14 March 2012, 03:50:51 »
I feel like a douche. You guys did so much work figuring out and conveying the exact Kinesis replacement caps and since I'm squeezed on time and cash I haven't even fully reviewed everything. Good thing I trust your judgment.

My thought:
Is the group buy (blanks) any cheaper than from SP directly? I say buy exactly one exact Kinesis set from SP and tell Weyman he is not responsible for a laser engrave/etch problem. I mean really, this is what needs to happen in the real world. We need to know what one exact Kinesis replacement set costs from SP. I will buy a blank set, have him engrave it. If it's good, you buy it, if there is a problem, I'll keep it since I don't care about legends.  Good idea huh?
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Offline boli

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #325 on: Wed, 14 March 2012, 03:55:33 »
That would be awesome IN!
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #326 on: Wed, 14 March 2012, 04:36:54 »
1- We need a price from SP for the exact replacement set in both doubleshot and PBT.
2- Cost for Weyman to put on legends.

Maybe buying 2-5 blank sets will help pricing?

I don't have time for doing this. :)
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Offline boli

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« Reply #327 on: Thu, 15 March 2012, 03:13:53 »
7bit replied to the high Colemak set prices:

Quote
This is wrong, I will correct the prices. They will be lower.

Expect $54 for ALPHACOLEMAK at most, maybe less.

SPH/COLEMAK might be a bit more expensive and SPH/ALPHA a bit cheaper.

To bring prices really down, please order more!!!


The prices haven't changed much yet though.
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline boli

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« Reply #328 on: Thu, 15 March 2012, 03:29:28 »
Quote from: input nirvana;545556
1- We need a price from SP for the exact replacement set in both doubleshot and PBT.
2- Cost for Weyman to put on legends.

Maybe buying 2-5 blank sets will help pricing?

I don't have time for doing this. :)

A Kinesis set (with cylindrical instead of spherical home keys) from SP would be something like this (please check and confirm/point out mistakes):
  • 10 DCS row 1 1x1
  • 12 DCS row 2 1x1
  • 12 DCS row 3 1x1
  • 18 DCS row 4 1x1
  • 4 DCS row 5 1x1
  • 2 DCS row 1 1x1.25
  • 6 DCS row 3 1x1.25
  • 2 NumPad+, maybe something like DCS row 3(?) 2x1 (vertical)
  • 2 DCS row 4 1x2

If you pm me the email of SP's contact (Melissa I think?) I'll ask.
« Last Edit: Thu, 15 March 2012, 03:44:22 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #329 on: Thu, 15 March 2012, 21:11:46 »
IDEA:
We need to make a KPS diagram and schedule with the Signature Plastics key caps designations for the Kinesis. Then post in this thread and the Split Kinesis Mod wiki so it will be easily available for future reference. It should show the sphericals and the cylindrical equivalents for the home row. If someone doesn't get to to it, I'll do it eventually when I'm back in the next month or so.
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Offline boli

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« Reply #330 on: Fri, 16 March 2012, 10:40:06 »
I will copy my WASD-adaptation of kps' diagram and change it to SP key cap names (all cylindrical keys). The complete list of keys is already in my previous post.

What do you mean by schedule?

I just sent an email to Melissa asking about prices for blank ABS and PBT sets.

But do you think Weyman from WASDkeyboards would even laser key caps we bought from somewhere else? Last I heard he wouldn't do it because of "could be lost during shipment" concerns. Also since he'll be offering PBT keys in a few months he might tell us to wait... (he has not replied to my last few mails so I'm not even trying to ask).
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline boli

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« Reply #331 on: Sat, 17 March 2012, 04:47:04 »
Reply from SP:
Quote
Thank you for the request! Our pricing is volume sensitive, so I have given
you a range of prices. Pricing for ABS or PBT is the same. These are all
blank keycaps - no printing.
  • 5 sets: $133.09 / set
  • 10 sets: $75.13 / set
  • 15 sets: $55.80 / set
  • 25 sets: $40.34 / set
  • 50 sets: $28.75 / set
The vertical keycaps on the num pad are a row 2/3 keycap for the + and a row
4/4 keycap for the Enter key. Pricing above does not include shipping costs.
Let me know if you need anything else!

Melissa Petersen
Signature Plastics LLC
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #332 on: Sat, 17 March 2012, 13:05:32 »
Schedule=key cap list
I'll make sure the diagram and list are available together.

YAAAYYYYYY! For the first time in history the blank Kinesis key caps are known, shown, sourced and priced! THANKS BOLI!

Q: The key caps quoted are singleshot ABS (not double shot)?

If Weyman will have PBT in a few months, that seems to make the process easier. After all this time, I could wait. I would like samples of all 3 key caps to compare (ABS single, ABS double, PBT).
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Offline dorkvader

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« Reply #333 on: Sat, 17 March 2012, 18:55:04 »
Input Nirvana: If you read the first paragraph of Melissa's email there, you'll see the prices are for blank, unprinted keycaps. Cool thing is: She says the price is the same for ABS or PBT.

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #334 on: Sat, 17 March 2012, 20:10:48 »
I had originally asked for blank ABS doubleshot pricing. We were lookIng at the group buy 4 that 7bit is running. The price Boli has from that group buy is for Kinesis blank+legend ABS doubleshots, but is priced quite high and has quite a few extra keys. I want to clarify and see if there is a direct, comparable price for blank ABS doubleshots that Boli may have gotten.

I have both ABS and doubleshot ABS, and prefer the doubleshot. I don't have PBT to compare with yet.
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Offline boli

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« Reply #335 on: Sun, 18 March 2012, 13:04:27 »
I don't understand why doubleshot blank keys even exist. I understand thicker keys are nice, but that can be had without doubleshotting, no?

Also, SP's prices are quite high, given we might be able to get fully custom lasered ABS caps from WASDkeyboards for $60. It doesn't have the 4 tall thumb keys, and the 8 1.25-wide side keys aren't exactly the right shape, but all that for $60 is still hellofa good price. :)

Edit: I did not specify single-shot or double-shot when I asked Melissa. I wrote a follow-up mail to ask. I'd also like clarification on the prices, if the number given is the upper or lower bound. That is, if 1 to 5 sets cost $133, or if that price is for 5 to 9 sets. I assume it's the first option, otherwise we'd be missing pricing for < 5 sets. This'd mean that anything less than 6 sets costs ridiculously much.
« Last Edit: Sun, 18 March 2012, 13:17:01 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline dorkvader

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« Reply #336 on: Sun, 18 March 2012, 16:41:47 »
Boli, I only ever heard of one keyboard with a blank doubleshot key: they're not that common, though that's likely because keyboards with a single blank key aren't that common. I suspect they did it as it's cheaper and easier to make a doubleshot blank key with their existing process than it is to make a new process for just that one key.

That said, I'd love doubleshot blanks, if only for the irony of it. After heavy use (rootwyrm style) they'd look like a clickclack, too.

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #337 on: Sun, 18 March 2012, 23:21:46 »
Thank you for the follow up Boli! >>Information is power<<

The Kinesis doubleshots are just very 'slightly' nicer, not a  big deal though. But enough that I'm interested in getting blank doubleshots for my flagship custom Kinesis. I'm trying to make it as nice as possible as a 'Concept'. That's one reason I may cast an entire set of keys, just to maximize the quality feel. I don't know if PBT feels any different.
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Offline dorkvader

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« Reply #338 on: Mon, 19 March 2012, 00:02:14 »
I'm surprised you don't have an IBM handy. Of course it depends on the keycap in question (or, more specifically, who made it) but I much prefer the feel of PBT to abs. Also, SP's PBT keys are thicker than their ABS. I really like SP's PBT keys.

Offline boli

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« Reply #339 on: Mon, 19 March 2012, 02:54:05 »
SP's Melissa already replied to my follow up (on a Sunday no less):

Code: [Select]
All blank keycaps are single shot. We don't manufacture 2-shot blank keycaps
as there is no difference from a single shot keycap.

Price breaks are below:
1 set $596.83 per set
2 sets $305.99 per set
3 sets $210.38 per set
4 sets $162.07 per set
5 to 9 sets $133.09 per set
10 to 14 sets $75.12 per set
15 to 24 sets $55.80 per set
25 to 49 sets $40.34 per set
50 to 74 sets $28.75 per set
75 to 99 sets $24.89 per set

Ouch, so the prices given earlier were lower bounds, meaning we'd have to order at least 10 for an acceptable price (IMO anyway). Small wonder group buys are interesting. :)
« Last Edit: Mon, 19 March 2012, 02:56:24 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #340 on: Mon, 19 March 2012, 04:19:56 »
Dork: Thanks for the SP PBT info. Very helpful :) Old IBM retro vintage mechanical boards are very cool...as long as someone else owns them instead of me.

Boli: I thought the blank ABS doubleshots in group buy 4 were from SP? Maybe I misread a post about that? I realize blank doubleshots are an interestingly odd item. Who is 7bit buying them from I wonder? We need a price for a Kinesis set, no extra keys, blah blah blah.

Otherwise maybe wait for Weyman to get PBT. Or, Input Nirvanas Key Emporium and Manufacturing (INKEM) coming summer 2012! If you follow the MYOC thread....can make some neat stuff!
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Offline boli

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« Reply #341 on: Tue, 20 March 2012, 03:43:10 »
Quote from: input nirvana;550375
Boli: I thought the blank ABS doubleshots in group buy 4 were from SP? Maybe I misread a post about that? Who is 7bit buying them from I wonder?

No idea, the wiki links to Signature Plastics DCS-family, so I assume the blanks are singleshot ABS from SP.

Quote from: input nirvana;550375
We need a price for a Kinesis set, no extra keys, blah blah blah.

The wiki says 7bit's prices are bulk for 25 or more each, which according to Melissa's reply above would be $40 for a full set (though I doubt we'd get anywhere close to 25 orders).
If you wanted you could compose a Kinesis set by ordering 68 individual key caps (or an alphanum set plus some individual keys), though at roughly $2 per key cap that'd result in a total cost of $136ish (which would be close to the price of 5 to 9 sets at SP directly).
« Last Edit: Tue, 20 March 2012, 03:58:04 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline dorkvader

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« Reply #342 on: Tue, 20 March 2012, 09:11:24 »
Quote from: boli;551274
I doubt we'd get anywhere close to 25 orders
I think you'd be surprised. We didn't think we'd get more than about 10 for the ergoDOX. There are a lot of people with Kinesis on this forum.

Offline boli

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« Reply #343 on: Tue, 20 March 2012, 13:06:59 »
Quote from: dorkvader;551369
I think you'd be surprised. We didn't think we'd get more than about 10 for the ergoDOX. There are a lot of people with Kinesis on this forum.

Maybe. I'm just not so hot on blank keys now that I know what WASDkeyboards can do with a laser... otherwise I might have done a group buy or at least interest check myself.
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #344 on: Tue, 20 March 2012, 23:14:38 »
With that being said, I'll forget about the info on group buy 4. I consider options for Kinesis sets either:
 1)WASD ABS,
 2)WASD PBT towards the end of the year,
3)If there is a group buy put together.

We all already have ABS, so if there is a group buy I would really prefer PBT (thanks Dorkv), and I want blanks. If someone does an interest check or starts a buy and you don't see me in on it, let. me know, I'm in for one set. I have no problem waiting till this fall, I've got other things to do till then :)
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Offline sordna

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« Reply #345 on: Wed, 21 March 2012, 04:04:13 »
Can you find me PBT, textured/matte arcade buttons ?  

:-)
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #346 on: Wed, 21 March 2012, 04:12:03 »
Quote from: sordna;552249
Can you find me PBT, textured/matte arcade buttons ?  

:-)

Q:
1) color?
2) WASD lasee engraved?
3) back filled with putty?

Probably group buy #22, summer 2014.
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Offline faffer

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« Reply #347 on: Thu, 22 March 2012, 16:32:33 »
What are the costs like for PBT + dyesub?  I think SP can do the printing so you could combine an order of blanks and printed to get a bigger discount on the molding at least.

Offline dorkvader

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« Reply #348 on: Fri, 23 March 2012, 00:03:26 »
I think I remember SP does do pad printing, but it's super expensive (a lot more than Dyesub or doubleshot)

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« Reply #349 on: Mon, 26 March 2012, 13:07:12 »
This is the "OFFICIAL" parts list!

- When I list the symbols, I used both the shifted and unshifted symbols for that key, just to make it easier to see.
 - The "International Key" produces in the U.S. but has \| symbol repeated on the key like the actual \| key.
 - The legends are based on U.S. and QWERTY. The important information is the actual key caps that are needed, not the legends...they are just for reference.

ORDERING INFORMATION:
A Kinesis set (with cylindrical instead of spherical home keys) as manufactured by Signature Plastics:

[LIST=|INDENT=1]
  • 10 DCS row 1 1x1..........1 2 4 5 6 7 9 0 Home PageUp
  • 12 DCS row 2 1x1..........Q W E R T Y I O U P 3 8
  • *12 DCS row 3 1x1........A S D F G H J K L ;: End PageDown
  • 18 DCS row 4 1x1..........Z X C V B N M ,< .> /? `~ \| Larrow Rarrow Uarrow Darrow [[ ]]
  • 4 DCS row 5 1x1............CTRL ALT/OPT Command/Win (the 4 keys at the top of the thumb clusters vary in function depending on OS used)
  • 2 DCS row 1 1x1.25.......=+ -_
  • 6 DCS row 3 1x1.25.......Tab \| CapLock '" Shift Shift
  • 2 DCS row 4 1x2 (turned vertical) (NumPadZero).....Enter Delete
  • 2 DCS row 4/4 1x2 vertical (NumPadEnter).....Space Backspace

To have the 8 home row keys as the original 'spherical' keycaps:
 - *Only 4 DCS Row 3 1x1.... ....G H End PageDown
 - Add 8 DSA Row 3 1x1...........A S D F J K L ;: (these may be a "Deep Dish" key cap)
I disregard the 'homing bump' option for the index fingers when using the spherical keys option (see DSA sheet)

A tactile homing "bump" or "bar" can be used on the index fingers of the home row if the spherical keys are not used. Hardly required since the keywells mostly guide your fingers to the correct locations:
- *Only 10 DCS row 3 1x1............................A S D G H K L ;: End PageDown
 - Add 2 DCS row 3 1x1 with 'bump' or 'bar'....F J

These key caps are available as ABS or PBT (PBT is a nicer plastic).
The last choice is color.

- - - For the spherical, I need to confirm if the home row is a "deep dish" key cap. - - -

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 46143[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 45824[/ATTACH]
« Last Edit: Mon, 02 April 2012, 03:44:34 by input nirvana »
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