Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)

[hazeluff]

Looks like this post has come back from the abyss! How can we not be trying? Everyday posts were randomly disappearing... Hopefully that's fixed now, as I can see more and more of my posts reappearing.

Holy crap! Are 1 in 4 posts here really mine? Guess I talk too much...

You question me a lot. And it's good. Cos i sprout ideas without double checking.

If I were naming the board as my own project, I would like call it something with my name in it. Hazelboard, Hazboard,HazeLUX.

Sadly this is a group effort. So therefore I will put my vote into:

LUX

= p Its elegant, but slightly cheesy. I don't think it needs any more to it. = p

or maybe

Aura
Radient
Dawn

Back on serious topic:

I think allowing for both polling and LED lighting at the same time should work. The debounce(?, its in the code) of 5ms and poll rate of 1kHz(?,im unsure but this is what most keyboards are,ye?) will lead to a LED that won't flicker.This is pretty much exactly the design that Prin has done. I'm considering having the transistor only drive the current/voltage across the LEDs and not both switches and LEDs.It makes for slightly easier analysis/less area to have fault,I think. Row pins are sensitive to voltage and LEDs are sensitive to voltage, but are nicely controlled with current control.

If anyone knows what I'm saying in the following (and I still make sense) then please comment:

I want to use a NMOS for the column and have the source to ground (might need use a resistor to bias current). And at the positive rail use a PMOS and active low with combination of the row select pin to the base.
This is my design. It's like Prins, but the main thing we don't have to worry about is the voltage given to the Row lines for detecting closed switches. Also no extra/unaccounted current flowing through the "switch circuit":
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 39801[/ATTACH]

[The_Ed]

Umm... Why are there columns named LED row?...

[hazeluff]

Umm... Why are there columns named LED row?...

They aren't columns. They control the rows. The FET just needs to go to the + power rail. So it looks like a column. If you analyse, then you will see they control the LEDs of each row only.

Also I named two pins "Key Row 1". /facepalm.

[The_Ed]

Just make sure you don't make it so I can't put my 2 rotary encoders in the way I had planned. As long as it works, it works. So was this finalized or still under debate?

129 key:

104
+ 5 above arrows
+ 4 above numpad
+ 16 in an extra row underneath Esc through Pause/Break that are in cherry G80/G81 -3000 positions

Individually controlled LEDs - fit through holes in mx switches and solder to traces on the PCB
Fits into cherry G80/G81 -3000 cases
n-key rollover - diodes next to the switches - possibly SMD and possibly already preinstalled
PCB switch mount holes - for if no plate is wanted
Cherry G99 stabilizer PCB mount holes - for if no plate is used and cherry stabilizers are wanted

[hazeluff]

Just make sure you don't make it so I can't put my 2 rotary encoders in the way I had planned. As long as it works, it works. So was this finalized or still under debate?

104+ key (I don't want to count):

+ 5 above arrows
+ 8 above numpad
15 Key Function Row + ESC
+ 15 Key Function Row below the Function row and above Number row
+ 3 Between Home cluster and PrintScr keys.

Individually controlled LEDs - fit through holes in mx switches and solder to traces on the PCB
Fits into cherry G80/G81 -3000 cases
n-key rollover - diodes next to the switches - most likely SMD and probably have them preinstalled
PCB switch mount holes - for if no plate is wanted (I don't know if it will be possible if I allow for multiple key positions + pcb mount, I will work towards checking this)
Cherry G99 stabilizer PCB mount holes - for if no plate is used and cherry stabilizers are wanted (See above ^)

So my summary

-104+ Key
-Fit Cherry G80/81
-NKRO
-Multiple layout on one PCB
-Individually controlled LED

[The_Ed]

+ 5 above arrows - OK
+ 8 above numpad - The top extra 4 will be where the 3 "lock" LED windows are... OH!... Even if I don't put switches there I could still put my 3 "lock" LEDs there and control them right?
15 Key Function Row + ESC - Don't Condense! 13 keys here!
+ 15 Key Function Row below the Function row and above Number row - Don't Condense! 13 keys here!
+ 3 Between Home cluster and PrintScr keys. - OK

You are submitting a 137 key version. I would support 8 keys above the numpad if I can use the switches' LED traces for my 3 "lock" LEDs. I do NOT support condensing the dual F-rows to get an extra 4 keys. So I would support a 133 key version as follows:

133 key:

104
+ 5 above arrows
+ 8 above numpad - can use 3 of the top 4 switches' LED traces for the 3 "lock" LEDs
+ 16 in an extra row underneath Esc through Pause/Break that are in cherry G80/G81 -3000 positions

Individually controlled LEDs - fit through holes in mx switches and solder to traces on the PCB
Fits into cherry G80/G81 -3000 cases
n-key rollover - diodes next to the switches - possibly SMD and possibly already preinstalled
PCB switch mount holes - for if no plate is wanted
Cherry G99 stabilizer PCB mount holes - for if no plate is used and cherry stabilizers are wanted

[hazeluff]

+ 5 above arrows - OK
+ 8 above numpad - The top extra 4 will be where the 3 "lock" LED windows are... OH!... Even if I don't put switches there I could still put my 3 "lock" LEDs there and control them right?
15 Key Function Row + ESC - Don't Condense! 13 keys here!
+ 15 Key Function Row below the Function row and above Number row - Don't Condense! 13 keys here!
+ 3 Between Home cluster and PrintScr keys. - OK

You are submitting a 137 key version. I would support 8 keys above the numpad if I can use the switches' LED traces for my 3 "lock" LEDs. I do NOT support condensing the dual F-rows to get an extra 4 keys. So I would support a 133 key version as follows:

133 key:

104
+ 5 above arrows
+ 8 above numpad - can use 3 of the top 4 switches' LED traces for the 3 "lock" LEDs
+ 16 in an extra row underneath Esc through Pause/Break that are in cherry G80/G81 -3000 positions

Individually controlled LEDs - fit through holes in mx switches and solder to traces on the PCB
Fits into cherry G80/G81 -3000 cases
n-key rollover - diodes next to the switches - possibly SMD and possibly already preinstalled
PCB switch mount holes - for if no plate is wanted
Cherry G99 stabilizer PCB mount holes - for if no plate is used and cherry stabilizers are wanted

The keys don't matter, since I'm trying to get multiple layouts on the board. So I'll be seeing if the traces can support both the condensed 15 key Function row AND the 13key. Same with the 8 keys above the numpad. I am going to try to have both the 8 keys AND the 3 lock LEDs (Can't be done at same time (I don't think)). It will most likely be, If you have 8 keys, There will be no lock LEDs and if you don't use the 8 keys, you can use 3 lock LEDs (controlled as if they were the LEDs of 3 of the 8 keys in that region, but located in the appropriate location)

[The_Ed]

That's good. That means my 129 key layout is inside of your 137 key layout. So... Now I have to find somebody with cherry doubleshot F13-24. I think I've seen white before, but never black sadly...

[hazeluff]

That's good. That means my 129 key layout is inside of your 137 key layout. So... Now I have to find somebody with cherry doubleshot F13-24. I think I've seen white before, but never black sadly...

May need custom ones. Since this is a Fully lighted board. I will run a GB on the side for Doubleshots with clear legends. I mean what's the point if you cna't see the LEDs through your keycaps?

[alaricljs]

I will run a GB on the side for Doubleshots with clear legends.

 Er, wha?  Do you know this is possible?  I mean, why the hell haven't we seen any if this is possible?  I'd be in for 2 sets.

[hazeluff]

Er, wha?  Do you know this is possible?  I mean, why the hell haven't we seen any if this is possible?  I'd be in for 2 sets.

I don't see how it can't be done. Also transparent/translucent colorless is a plastic that SP has. Its one of the samples.

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 39826[/ATTACH]

UEV!

[alaricljs]

I've only ever seen UEV used when they did the clear caps in GB 3.

[hazeluff]

I've only ever seen UEV used when they did the clear caps in GB 3.

Its the same type of plastic as the others. I shoudl be doubleshot-able. I'll go ask Melisa?

[The_Ed]

I like my cherry doubleshots so much I was going to just have the ambient glow around the keycaps. That glow that lasts for a split second before fading away efffect for the keys I press. It was in one of those videos. But if a groupbuy for clear legended keycaps with "faux (cycloverid)" cherry legends is done that would be interesting as well. Though that would cost a fortune in legending fees right? I don't like SPs standard font... It isn't... right... But hell if it wasn't that expensive for an SP font version I'd take a set. Crap... I think I need to buy a third set of doubleshots from 99-hk... I'll wait till later I think...

[hazeluff]

I like my cherry doubleshots so much I was going to just have the ambient glow around the keycaps. That glow that lasts for a split second before fading away efffect for the keys I press. It was in one of those videos. But if a groupbuy for clear legended keycaps with "faux (cycloverid)" cherry legends is done that would be interesting as well. Though that would cost a fortune in legending fees right? I don't like SPs standard font... It isn't... right... But hell if it wasn't that expensive for an SP font version I'd take a set. Crap... I think I need to buy a third set of doubleshots from 99-hk... I'll wait till later I think...

Yeah, Jesuswasazombie wanted to do a dolce set with faux cherry font. And its not quite possible (well it has it issues). Thus I'll probably end up doing it using their standard fonts.

[The_Ed]

Including the f13-24, media keys, "clear", and a few others I can't think of right now?

[hazeluff]

Including the f13-24, media keys, "clear", and a few others I can't think of right now?

Depending on the price of including them. But Ideally I would include that and some extra blanks for the other ones. Media keys will cost a bit, if we need custom legends.

[TheProfosist]

Can I propose that you do something like the Phantom for the main section of keys so that it can do ISO ANSI and 7bit? and everything talked about with the condensed and non condensed keys should be possible as it was done on the Phantom already.

[The_Ed]

ANSI and ISO are already being supported as far as I know. I don't think 7bit is going to be supported though. That abomination should stay exclusive to the phantom.

Wait a minute... Is that a TASER next to the color samples?!

[bpiphany]

Its the same type of plastic as the others. I shoudl be doubleshot-able. I'll go ask Melisa?

Actually I am pretty sure this is wrong. My memory tells me they were unable to double shoot that particular "color".

[byFd]

Actually I am pretty sure this is wrong. My memory tells me they were unable to double shoot that particular "color".

think i read something like this somewhere too.

also not sure how it would look like doubleshotted since the color of the base cap would still be (partly) behind it. if you look inside a cap you see what i mean

[hazeluff]

think i read something like this somewhere too.

also not sure how it would look like doubleshotted since the color of the base cap would still be (partly) behind it. if you look inside a cap you see what i mean

When light shines through it should be fine. Gotta check whether or not it can be done tho

[bpiphany]

Ok, so I started to lay out a board with LED pads in every switch and ran into a couple of "problems".

1. Rotated stabilized keys like ISO enter and keypad + need to have the switch rotated to work with Costar stabilizers. This of course means the LED for that location will also be moved to the side of the key rather than straight down. Cherry stabilizers can have the switches rotated any direction.

2. Some PCB mount holes for Cherry stabilizers overlap alternative layouts switch-LED locations. I don't know how keen the factory is on doing overlapping holes. Probably not at all... Those holes would need to be drilled once the layout is chosen. Stabilizer locations for different "space bars" and around the "enter" area is a complete mess anyways and they cannot be drilled before layout has been decided either.

3. Some LED pads in the space bar row is just interfering silly with each other, but that looks like it can actually be worked out...

4. Are we aiming to have SMD for diodes, controller and everything except the MX switches and LEDS?

All in all though, this seems to end up less a mess than I thought =D

[hazeluff]

Ok, so I started to lay out a board with LED pads in every switch and ran into a couple of "problems".

1. Rotated stabilized keys like ISO enter and keypad + need to have the switch rotated to work with Costar stabilizers. This of course means the LED for that location will also be moved to the side of the key rather than straight down. Cherry stabilizers can have the switches rotated any direction.

2. Some PCB mount holes for Cherry stabilizers overlap alternative layouts switch-LED locations. I don't know how keen the factory is on doing overlapping holes. Probably not at all... Those holes would need to be drilled once the layout is chosen. Stabilizer locations for different "space bars" and around the "enter" area is a complete mess anyways and they cannot be drilled before layout has been decided either.

3. Some LED pads in the space bar row is just interfering silly with each other, but that looks like it can actually be worked out...

4. Are we aiming to have SMD for diodes, controller and everything except the MX switches and LEDS?

All in all though, this seems to end up less a mess than I thought =D

Good to hear its less messed up.

I was actually drawing up my own last night. If you don't mind I'd like to play around with it once you get the basics down?

1) I don't think it'll affect too much. The lights may come from the side, but in general shouldn't be too noticeable.

2) In terms of it overlapping other switch-LED locations, its ok as long as we arn't using those LEDs when a layout is picked. If it helps, I think not having the 7Bit mod row is alright. (Tho I can see that some people would want more mod keys; Like japanese layout).

3) Don't know what to make of this. We'll see for this one?

4) SMD for diodes for now. I think we can mount the controller, unless SMD the controller benefits us greatly. But if we SMD the controller, we need to implement the usb mini loader?

[bpiphany]

2) In terms of it overlapping other switch-LED locations, its ok as long as we arn't using those LEDs when a layout is picked. If it helps, I think not having the 7Bit mod row is alright. (Tho I can see that some people would want more mod keys; Like japanese layout).

3) Don't know what to make of this. We'll see for this one?

4) SMD for diodes for now. I think we can mount the controller, unless SMD the controller benefits us greatly. But if we SMD the controller, we need to implement the usb mini loader?

2. There is no problem once the layout has been picked. Switch locations overlapped by stabilizer mounting holes can of course not be interesting in that layout...

3. It's going to require a lot of manual tweaking, that is all. reversing the mounting direction of some of the LEDs. Nothing more than an annoyance when they are going to be soldered.

4. If we are having anything SMD mounted, I think we might just as well have as much as possible. This would probably also allow us to place all important components within the alphanumeric section. That would in effect make it possible to cut down the PCB to any size desired. One PCB for Tenkeyless/full size/Poker/whatever. Also leaves more room for switch locations where the Teensy would have had to go otherwise.


But now I am taking a shower and heading off to the pub, see you Monday =) This is going to be one long weekend....

[hazeluff]

2. There is no problem once the layout has been picked. Switch locations overlapped by stabilizer mounting holes can of course not be interesting in that layout...

3. It's going to require a lot of manual tweaking, that is all. reversing the mounting direction of some of the LEDs. Nothing more than an annoyance when they are going to be soldered.

4. If we are having anything SMD mounted, I think we might just as well have as much as possible. This would probably also allow us to place all important components within the alphanumeric section. That would in effect make it possible to cut down the PCB to any size desired. One PCB for Tenkeyless/full size/Poker/whatever. Also leaves more room for switch locations where the Teensy would have had to go otherwise.


But now I am taking a shower and heading off to the pub, see you Monday =) This is going to be one long weekend....

3) Sounds good. Well since we can label the holes, it'll be annoying, but won't be confusing as hell when assembling.

4) Yeah, We might as well SMD the controller, but someone needs to sort out the loading bit, I'm not quite sure of the interface for that.

Would be amazing if the board works for any layout wanted, specially the cutting down to allow use in a filco board. Because what I had at the moment only fits in Cherry G80/81 cases.

Cheers~ I gotta stop procrastinating and finish off my lab work to submit...

[Parak]

3. It's going to require a lot of manual tweaking, that is all. reversing the mounting direction of some of the LEDs. Nothing more than an annoyance when they are going to be soldered.

I created a separate module and schematic component for a switch with an LED. At least on the pcb, it's easier to deal with for movement purposes, since you'll always have the LED holes in a specific location. Also, square pads should indicate anodes. You've probably done both of these things already anyway, so I'm likely being redundant

4. If we are having anything SMD mounted, I think we might just as well have as much as possible. This would probably also allow us to place all important components within the alphanumeric section. That would in effect make it possible to cut down the PCB to any size desired. One PCB for Tenkeyless/full size/Poker/whatever. Also leaves more room for switch locations where the Teensy would have had to go otherwise.

Yeah, the hope here is to implement siberx's design, as otherwise there's a lot of work that would need to be done..

[bpiphany]

Just as teasers, the stabilizer holes are supposed to be the size of the copper pads. Those holes are .039" = 1mm for easy drill alignment.




Pads will be round, squared and stars... =P And there aren't even any diodes in those pictures yet =D

[hazeluff]

I created a separate module and schematic component for a switch with an LED. At least on the pcb, it's easier to deal with for movement purposes, since you'll always have the LED holes in a specific location. Also, square pads should indicate anodes. You've probably done both of these things already anyway, so I'm likely being redundant



Yeah, the hope here is to implement siberx's design, as otherwise there's a lot of work that would need to be done..

Ahaha I do Electronic Engineering and still don't know which is the anode and which is the cathode. I need someone to tell me if long leg to + or short let ><.

I don't think there is a lot to do for the LEDs. apart from getting the right parts for biasing. The code for it to be implemented straight from the MCU is quite straight forward.

[hazeluff]

Just as teasers, the stabilizer holes are supposed to be the size of the copper pads. Those holes are .039" = 1mm for easy drill alignment.

Show Image

Show Image

Pads will be round, squared and stars... =P And there aren't even any diodes in those pictures yet =D

Gonna Sqeel like a little girl. Have my babies Prin!

[Parak]

Pads will be round, squared and stars... =P And there aren't even any diodes in those pictures yet =D

I think that the one potential problem there is overlapping anode and cathode for differing switch positions means pin reassignment in the firmware most likely. It's also a bit of a headache schematic wise, I'd think.

[hazeluff]

I think that the one potential problem there is overlapping anode and cathode for differing switch positions means pin reassignment in the firmware most likely. It's also a bit of a headache schematic wise, I'd think.

We should be fine if we rotate the switches when that happens?

The whole thing is a headache. This is why low level system/code design is so much harder. But once the framework/infrastructure is there, the high level stuff is easy!

[Parak]

We should be fine if we rotate the switches when that happens?

Well, LEDs that are used for keyboard backlighting typically have fairly narrow viewing angles in order to be decently bright. The keycap legend is also usually positioned on top of said LED. By rotating the LED, the beam will be in a different place, and the lighting of that keycap will be somewhat different than the others that are oriented in a regular way.

[7bit]

I don't see how it can't be done. Also transparent/translucent colorless is a plastic that SP has. Its one of the samples.

(Attachment Link) 39826[/ATTACH]

UEV!

They can, but not in the normal double-shot way. It will be more expensive. I think they did some keys with transparent legends, but don't remember the manufacturer.


BTW: SP key caps are so thin, that LEDs shine through. I'm using a KBDRUNNER as LED-cover on my Tipro.

[hazeluff]

They can, but not in the normal double-shot way. It will be more expensive. I think they did some keys with transparent legends, but don't remember the manufacturer.

I just emailed Mellisa she said it's possible, but they wont do it. Because of all the obstructing plastic.

[7bit]

I just emailed Mellisa she said it's possible, but they wont do it. Because of all the obstructing.

What does she mean by "obstructing plastic"?

[hazeluff]

Eugene-
While it is physically possible to use the material as a first shot, we won't sell keys this way. There is too much plastic under the keycap to interfere with the purpose of using the clear material.
Sorry!

I'll quote it.

Anyway I guess she means the that net like thing underneath that you see on all doubleshots?

But I Reckon the ambiance of the light should still make its way to the other side...

[Parak]

Wait, so entirely transparent keys are fine, but using that material as an infill is not? ¬_¬

[7bit]

I'll quote it.

Anyway I guess she means the that net like thing underneath that you see on all doubleshots?

But I Reckon the ambiance of the light should still make its way to the other side...

Imagine the red to be clear. You see white on the surface and then these lines under the surface.

We should let them make a run of sample keys.

What about a GEEK HACK key group buy in orange on clear, just to see the effect.

The legends might be more visible as with black on very dark grey.

Also, worth a try should be the oposite way: clear legend on a colored key.


ps: You can say about Ripster what you want, but he has made quite a lot of usefull photos.

[hazeluff]

Wait, so entirely transparent keys are fine, but using that material as an infill is not? ¬_¬

Yeah...

Well cos if we do Clear legends on Opaque keys, you'll see that the mesh does kind of get in the way. I think one option may be for Translucent Clears and have WASD lazer engrave/etch them. I mean if we get a good amount of support for it maybe he'll do it. At the moment I can't think of another option.

Well if we get the interest, I may ask her to do a test if possible? I think Opaque legend on clear will look somewhat silly, but Clear legend on opaque keys seems like its possible, even tho the reduced brightness.

[7bit]

Yeah...

Well cos if we do Clear legends on Opaque keys, you'll see that the mesh does kind of get in the way. I think one option may be for Translucent Clears and have WASD lazer engrave/etch them. I mean if we get a good amount of support for it maybe he'll do it. At the moment I can't think of another option.

Well if we get the interest, I may ask her to do a test if possible? I think Opaque legend on clear will look somewhat silly, but Clear legend on opaque keys seems like its possible, even tho the reduced brightness.

Poor black Cherry doubleshot :-(

The light should shine through the transparent (white in the picture) legend, somehow.

[hazeluff]

Poor black Cherry doubleshot :-(

The light should shine through the transparent (white in the picture) legend, somehow.

From the loks of this one, it would through some (reflection/refraction and whatnot). But the T might not light up.

RIP Cherry key. May we have a moment of silence

[7bit]

.

[hazeluff]

.

' ' indeed.

[7bit]

Ok, moment of silence is over.

The legends should be where the LED is, like on the new Vortex keyboard which got stuck.

[hazeluff]

Ok, moment of silence is over.

The legends should be where the LED is, like on the new Vortex keyboard which got stuck.

Well as long as its not over the stem, I don't see devastating consequences.

I guess thing is, we don't know if it'll work and we still need to convince Melissa.

[tsangan]

Make this

[hazeluff]

Make this

No = p.
Thats almost just a Choc Mini in a nice case with nice caps. ><

[tsangan]

No, that's a choc mini/race with good size modifiers and not retarded size ones

[hazeluff]

No, that's a choc mini/race with good size modifiers and not retarded size ones

Well its missing like 60 keys from what I want to do ; p