A noob's lucky find - help with my Model F

[Lotsofgoats]

You'll see that this is my first post, since I am not yet a keyboard enthusiast. There is, however, great potential. Somebody managed to get me to consider a mechanical keyboard at work today by giving me a custom keycap. That's when I remembered my uncle's old IBM that he left behind. It's been collecting dust in the basement for years now, but I did just go and grab the keyboard. Turns out it's a Model F 83-key from the early '80s. I figure it's a pretty good find, being that it's older than I am.

Now then, as I said I don't really have a clue when it comes to keyboards. From what I've been able to find via google (i.e. what clickykeyboards.com tells me) is that I need to convert from the old XT encoding to the slightly newer AT encoding, then to PS2 (and additionally to USB). They link to Hagstrom Electronics, but the model XE18-XTAT-PS2 encoder that is mentioned isn't anywhere to be found on their website. Can anybody give me a better suggestion or a good lead?

tl;dr Model F HOW DO I USE IT

[Soarer]

Nice find!

Pretty sure anything ready-made will be a ridiculous price, even if you did locate one.

My converter works great with the XT, and it's really very easy to put together :-)

(But if you do build one, please put it in a box or at least wrap electrical tape round it, or you risk letting the magic smoke out :-p )

[Lotsofgoats]

Aha! So you're that Soarer!


I'm awful with hardware (I'm a programmer, not an engineer -- hiss and boo all you want!), but I think I can manage this without burning the house down. Thanks a bunch.

[Soarer]

Aha! So you're that Soarer!

Well I'm not this Soarer - I have better taste in keyboards!!

Nor this one. I'll have to think up a different name for github :-(

[Lotsofgoats]

No worries, I haven't run into any of the others so you will forever be the original to me.


So all I'll need is a Teensy, a DIN socket, and some wires? That's certainly worth bringing this plink-plink-plinky masterpiece back to life. Cheers.

[fohat.digs]

I bought the Hagstrom model way back before I knew about Soarer and Teensy. It did work, with minor diddling, but cost $50 instead of $20, and still needed a box to live in.

The Teensy requires hooking up a grand total of 5 wires, and there are multiple ways of doing it without even using solder.

Also, the Teensy really is teensy, about the size of your average flash drive, I bet you could find a place for it inside the case and do away with the original cord. After all, what are the chances that you will be buying a computer with a DIN jack for the keyboard, at any point in the future?

[Soarer]

So all I'll need is a Teensy, a DIN socket, and some wires?

Yep, that's all you need. It's entirely up to you if you fit lock LEDs or not - it seems that many people don't bother with them. I reckon it's easiest to use a trailing socket (like this), then you only need to box or wrap the Teensy somehow. I get the Teensy without pins, so just covering it with tape is good enough as a safety measure, but tape isn't great at holding the wires or cable securely!

[Soarer]

After all, what are the chances that you will be buying a computer with a DIN jack for the keyboard, at any point in the future?

Fair point, especially if it's only going to be used with one keyboard.

For flexibility, I've made mine with a PS2 socket, and then use adapters. AT to PS2 adapters are commonplace, but I had to make my own for the Terminal keyboard's 240 degree DIN.

[fohat.digs]

That is my next project. I have a fresh Teensy and all the parts on the work bench, patiently waiting, for the last month or 2.

I am typing on my pet F-122, with Teensy installed tight inside and semi-permanent USB cord, but the next one will be an outboard box that can easily move from board to board.

It will be USB out, obviously, but I have not yet decided whether to have a single female "in" socket or use multiple "octopus" inputs hanging out, which I would probably prefer, but I can't find matching styles/colors for the various cables and sockets (I figure PS2, DIN 180 degree, DIN 240 degree, and female RJ-45 - so far all beige with a very light gray box, except I can't find a beige DIN 240).

OMG, I sound like my teenage daughter!

[Lotsofgoats]

Obviously the chances aren't terribly high, although I do have the original PC intact. Regardless, I just love the look of that pigtail cord. I'm not too worried about making things terribly pretty considering that this is a chunky 80s keyboard we're talking about here.

Here she is, all cleaned up:

[Touch_It]

im sure im in the minority but IBM model F's, XT, and especially AT are beautiful works of art to me, followed by the model m. .

[Wildcard]

although I do have the original PC intact.

Just curious, what model of computer is it.

im sure im in the minority but IBM model F's, XT, and especially AT are beautiful works of art to me, followed by the model m. .

It's not just you, I really like my Model F PC-AT, very good feel regardless of the slightly odd layout.

[Autolyze]

Whoa, Lotsofgoats, I'm pretty sure I know you! Or at least know who gave you a keycap, assuming it's a Look of Disapproval one. He told me that you had an old IBM keyboard in the basement, but I was assuming it was a run-of-the-mill Model M. This is an awesome find though. Congrats!

[Lotsofgoats]

RiffRaff, there's an ancient piece of paper on it that suggests its an IBM PC 5150 version C1.10


Autolyze, ಠ_ಠ

[Multiple]

I bought the Hagstrom model way back before I knew about Soarer and Teensy. It did work, with minor diddling, but cost $50 instead of $20, and still needed a box to live in.

The Teensy requires hooking up a grand total of 5 wires, and there are multiple ways of doing it without even using solder.

Also, the Teensy really is teensy, about the size of your average flash drive, I bet you could find a place for it inside the case and do away with the original cord. After all, what are the chances that you will be buying a computer with a DIN jack for the keyboard, at any point in the future?

How did you get the hagstrom to work?

[fohat.digs]

First, somehow I learned that I needed to call Hagstrom and order the unit from an actual human being over the phone. It turned out that there was a variation of the products listed on line (the variation was not listed) that had an extra "XT" in the model number, it was readily available at the same price.

With that, I also had a choice of large DIN in-out, or PS2 in-out (what we all would really want would be DIN-in and PS2-out, right?) so I chose PS2 and used an adapter on the XT's cord.

From there, I think that there were some DIP switches that took a few minutes of trial-and-error to find the right settings (I think that the instructions were less than clear or accurate).

I remember it being small, but still twice the size of a Teensy, and it was still bare circuits that needed an enclosure of some sort.

If you already have a Hagstrom, you should call them, they are very nice. Otherwise, I strongly recommend the Teensy.

[Wildcard]

RiffRaff, there's an ancient piece of paper on it that suggests its an IBM PC 5150 version C1.10


Autolyze, ಠ_ಠ

Thanks for checking that, I figured it was a shot in the dark but I'm still trying to help someone Trackdown an old IBM 6150 RT. I think I might post it in the classified section.

[nesfreak64]

Well, I thought I should say something, seeing as this is the only topic here about the Hagstrom thing.  First off, when I ordered mine, I had to put "KE18-XTAT-PS2" in the extra info/special orders box when I paid for it.  

Second of all, I can't vouch for the Soarer/Teensy method (It's my next project with a terminal F), but the Hagstrom (I'm using it right now) is very touchy.  Hitting any of the lock keys has a tendency to muck up things, I get a lot of random "\"s when I'm typing, and the whole thing has a tendency to completely drop out at random times...That and sometimes keys will just not work (especially the space bar).  

Add on the fact that there's a lot of wire management to deal with (the XT's cord, an AT to PS/2 adaptor, and a male PS/2 going from the Hagstrom to the PC), and it may be more trouble than it's worth to some.

To me though, it's worth it to be able to use a Model F full time, at least until I get the Teensy method up and running (this will be try 2 on a terminal F, first one had a bad controller I think).  Love the feel and the sound!

[Lotsofgoats]

I'm just waiting on the DIN socket now, but I wanted to make sure that the wires I plan on using are suitable for the project. I don't want to let out any of Soarer's magic smoke.


Something like these should be fine, yea?

[Soarer]

Fine, but you'll end up cutting the ends off! Good way to get a bunch of colours though.

Which socket are you using - trailing lead or panel mount? If it's panel mount, then part of an old IDE ribbon cable would be fine.

[Lotsofgoats]

I wound up taking your advice and went with the trailing lead.


I bet I have a friend who has the tools to do the bit of soldering for me, unless perhaps there's a way for me to secure the wire without needing it.

[Soarer]

Have you got anything lying around you can butcher a bit of cable from - a crappy rubber dome keyboard or a dead mouse or something? Would end up a lot neater than individual wires.

Does need soldering, I'm afraid. And if the plan is to pass the cable through a hole in a box, that wants doing before the soldering!

[Lotsofgoats]

The only thing that comes to mind is a SATA power adaptor that I'm never going to wind up needing. I might be able to find an old busted mouse in the basement.


I may have just managed to pick up a soldering iron for $0.34 due to a pricing error on amazon. We'll see if that gets disputed.

[Lotsofgoats]

Well, I've managed to burn myself with the soldering iron a few times. For some reason, my left hand really wants to be involved in holding it. Fail. This is being typed by the old Model F, by the way, so it was worth it. The converter is all taped up for now. I may stick it in a case sometime, but for now I don't mind looking at the hacked up dongle.

Thanks again, Soarer!

[fohat.digs]

Some day when you are dumpster-diving, and find an old dead computer, snag it and take it home to the work bench.

When you open it up, there will probably be half a mile of wires inside. Wires from the motherboard to the indicators and switches on the front of the case, wires to fans, a whole bunch of wires from the power supply.

Cut them all off and keep them, you should have enough brightly colored wires in many colors to supply many future projects. There will probably even be some sockets and plugs that might be useful, too.

Throw away whatever you don't need, it was thrown away already, right?

[Lotsofgoats]

I just happened upon a tin that's pretty much the perfect size, and has a little hole in the top for mints (or in my case, wires) to come out:

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 43039[/ATTACH]

[Lotsofgoats]

So after some solid use, I've found some minor problems. Some of the keys are taking a while to register, either being missed entirely, or being processed in the incorrect order. l , and ; seem to be the main culprits, with d being an issue every once in a while. The proximity of most of the keys makes me think that it's either me typing strangely with specific fingers, or there being a localized physical issue with the board. I've pulled the keys and made sure that they're seated correctly on the spring, making sure to blow out the mechanism to be sure it's not sticking anywhere.

Also, the caps lock button doesn't appear to be functional or supported by the firmware. CAPS LOCK IS IMPORTANT SO PEOPLE ON THE INTERNET KNOW THAT I'M SERIOUS ABOUT THINGS.

Also, I'm not a whiner so I can assure you that it's not the McRip Effect. Sorry.

[Soarer]

Do those keys sound any different to the rest? Maybe something resting on the keys while it was in storage damaged some springs? Springs can be replaced, if it is that.

CAPS definately works in my firmware... (unless you loaded v0.997 AND the example.sc (or layer_example.sc) settings file, in which case it's used as a Fn key for one of the examples).

Damaged springs _probably_ wouldn't stop a key from working completely though (as long as it still clicks reasonably), so it's possible that some dirt has got under the 'hammer' part. Unfortunately, that could be pretty hard to remove by blowing.

I don't think I've actually taken an XT apart. I'm guessing it's very similar to the AT - see here and here - and the same caveat about not removing the spacebar until it's completely apart applies. It's not really very difficult. Anyway, if you did that, you'd be able to swap some springs/hammers to different places to see if the problems move with them, and see if there's any dirt in there.