Author Topic: Adopt a Keycap Legend with Cherry Replica Font! (Cherry font, not some other font)  (Read 168153 times)

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Offline Vintage

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Is there any ETA for this Project?


This would be sick on the Klaxon set.
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Offline danielucf

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People have been willing to pay for ages. Are you guys working on this without collecting funds, or too busy to work on it and someone else with more time could get it completed faster? What is the general status?
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Offline OrangeJewce

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GMK stuffs put the project on hold according to hash about a month ago(? check earlier posts).

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Offline Vintage

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I knew about that but I thought he may have decided to start it up again because there is still a need for SP keys and the possibilty of doubleshot PBT.
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Offline eth0s

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So what is the status of this plan/ scheme/ idea ?

Do we still need to pay for any more $45 legend fees, or not?

I'd be willing to pay for a few caps, if still needed.  Tell hashbaz to send me an invoice.  I just pay them, I don't even look what they're for anymore.
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Offline i3oilermaker

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I would love to see this go forward and would be happy to help if the tribunal of the Cherry would allow me to.

Offline hashbaz

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I had been waiting for the GMK situation to settle before continuing to produce proofs of new keys, but it seems pretty clear at this point that we still want to finish these with SP.  GMK sets are expensive enough and slow enough in production and high enough in MOQ that I think both will coexist.

I spoke to Melissa a while back about making Cherry replica font available on SP's custom set configurator page.  She seemed open to the idea but was non-committal.  I think it would be sweet if we could do quick 50- or 100-unit rounds of keysets using the excellent pricing available there, while custom GMK stuff will likely be relegated to quarterly or bi-annual large multi-forum GBs (or vendors of course).

I still have most of the money we need to finish cutting the legends sitting in my paypal from the Red Cherry group buy, as well as extras from that GB still to sell off.  What shortfall there is after that may be small enough to be taken up by the first Cherry replica group buy.  Since Dolch sets from GMK seem very likely to be in the works either through sherryton or lysol's GB, there is the question of what set to do.  Personally I'd like to do CCnB, though danielucf has floated the idea of piggybacking onto the Toxic set since they have so many orders already and will already be delayed proofing that set's custom plastic color.

There's also the option of another fund raiser, which I believe is what boiler is alluding to.  I have no problem with that if it makes things easier, and with GMK and lysol's Cherry images now available the worry about keeping things locked up and secure has lessened a lot.

The other complication has been the changing notion of what is possible for SP to do wrt the quality of the legends.  Without getting into details, I'll say that Hazeluff's original SVGs have been more or less thrown out for something more true to the original (that is not a slam on Hazel's skills, just that what we know about SP's processes has changed since he did them).  Then most recently of all, lysol posted his excellent TIFF files of the Cherry legends.  I've been in the process of using those to generate new and improved SVGs which should give us excellent fidelity to the originals.

tldr: Still working on it, there have been complications, it's still gonna happen.

Offline Zehkul

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Glad to hear that.

What are the chances of Melissa accepting the font as an official SP font if we pay part of the cost with this money? That might be something worth thinking about. It’s not our font then, but it’s cheaper. :P

Offline samwisekoi

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Good to hear this.  I am still in for an adoption.

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Offline SmallFry

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Yay! By the way, I'm for the idea of getting scoops, that would be LEGIT!

Offline eth0s

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Yay! By the way, I'm for the idea of getting scoops, that would be LEGIT!

What would be really cool is thick ABS double-shot cherry replicas.  But, I am assuming anything we get from SP will be thin double-shots.

As for scoops, to be authentic I guess we need scoops on F and J, at least as an option.  (But TBH, scoops were never that great to type on, nubs are much better.)
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Offline SmallFry

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If I can, I prefer scoops over nubs, but its all personal preference. :)

Offline mickd

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though danielucf has floated the idea of piggybacking onto the Toxic set since they have so many orders already and will already be delayed proofing that set's custom plastic color.

Good to see this is still moving forward. Personally I would love to see the above happen!

Offline danielucf

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So for what is left how long do you think until we would have a full ANSI set of SVGs to use not taking money into account?
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Offline leesofi

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soon™ ??i hope this project apply to toxic.
drooooooooool


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Offline SmallFry

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soon™ ??i hope this project apply to toxic.
drooooooooool
Heh stealer.

Offline Jmneuv

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I'm convinced that SP won't be superfluous anytime soon. GMK sure don't appear like they're ever going to be as flexible and accessible as SP.

Offline danielucf

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I'm convinced that SP won't be superfluous anytime soon. GMK sure don't appear like they're ever going to be as flexible and accessible as SP.
It is also impossible to order in small quantities from GMK. GMK group buys are going to force people to buy a ton of keys they won't ever need so that the minority can get iso keys, 1.75x right shifts, and other obscure keys.

If around 75% of the money is already collected for the legends we need to just finish them, collect the rest of the money needed (I'll volunteer Toxic group buy again right now) and enjoy all the key sets with nice legends. I will also offer help again, I have time since I only have one real class this semester and it is really easy.
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Offline jcrouse

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I adopted something, one of the legends, and never heard back from anyone.

John

Offline Zehkul

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(I'll volunteer Toxic group buy again right now)

That would most likely make me join. :P

Toxic PBT double shots with Cherry font … *dream*

Offline MKULTRA

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I'm convinced that SP won't be superfluous anytime soon. GMK sure don't appear like they're ever going to be as flexible and accessible as SP.
It is also impossible to order in small quantities from GMK. GMK group buys are going to force people to buy a ton of keys they won't ever need so that the minority can get iso keys, 1.75x right shifts, and other obscure keys.

If around 75% of the money is already collected for the legends we need to just finish them, collect the rest of the money needed (I'll volunteer Toxic group buy again right now) and enjoy all the key sets with nice legends. I will also offer help again, I have time since I only have one real class this semester and it is really easy.

I think everyone in Toxic would be willing to pay a little extra to get Cherry legends.  It looks very good on the set.

Offline danielucf

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Those in charge of this have been active and posting in other threads so I'm not sure whats up, but I certainly don't have a warm fuzzy feeling any more.
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Offline OrangeJewce

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Those in charge of this have been active and posting in other threads so I'm not sure whats up, but I certainly don't have a warm fuzzy feeling any more.

I believe that hash said not even a week ago the project has to go through a whole new round of prototyping, because new svgs have come out that greatly increase the accuracy of the replica. This alone will set the project back that no amount of $$$ will be able to fix. It's not uncommon for SP to drag their feet when it comes to prototypes. (The DOX color took quite a while to get iirc)

There could be a conspiracy, but unlike some, I trust hash a lot more.

Cheers,
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Offline MKULTRA

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Those in charge of this have been active and posting in other threads so I'm not sure whats up, but I certainly don't have a warm fuzzy feeling any more.

I believe that hash said not even a week ago the project has to go through a whole new round of prototyping, because new svgs have come out that greatly increase the accuracy of the replica. This alone will set the project back that no amount of $$$ will be able to fix. It's not uncommon for SP to drag their feet when it comes to prototypes. (The DOX color took quite a while to get iirc)

There could be a conspiracy, but unlike some, I trust hash a lot more.

Cheers,

sooo is the tl;dr basically we're just waiting on SP at this point?

Offline rknize

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I don't believe we are waiting on SP for anything.  Hash backed off while the GMK thing started thrashing.  I think there are still more prototypes to do:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=28324.msg781381#msg781381
Russ

Offline OrangeJewce

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I don't believe we are waiting on SP for anything.  Hash backed off while the GMK thing started thrashing.  I think there are still more prototypes to do:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=28324.msg781381#msg781381

Quote from: hashbaz
The other complication has been the changing notion of what is possible for SP to do wrt the quality of the legends.  Without getting into details, I'll say that Hazeluff's original SVGs have been more or less thrown out for something more true to the original (that is not a slam on Hazel's skills, just that what we know about SP's processes has changed since he did them).  Then most recently of all, lysol posted his excellent TIFF files of the Cherry legends.  I've been in the process of using those to generate new and improved SVGs which should give us excellent fidelity to the originals.

Am I misunderstanding this paragraph then? New SVGs means new prototypes iirc?

Cheers,
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Offline OrangeJewce

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If it's just GMK it's been obvious for more than a month that vendors have the power and a real GMK gb isn't going to happen anytime soon :-/

Cheers,
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Offline esoomenona

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I agree. We should most definitely keep this rolling full steam ahead. There is no reason not to now. GMK does not seem to be the kind to work with us like SP has. Maybe we won't be looking at Dolch as the first GB to replicate with it, and should check again what we could look at, but we should definitely make this effort.

Offline hashbaz

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Those in charge of this have been active and posting in other threads so I'm not sure whats up, but I certainly don't have a warm fuzzy feeling any more.

Please chill out dan, nothing is wrong.  If you go back a couple of pages I owned up freely to the fact that this has taken much, much longer than I would have liked, and I list a bunch of reasons.  Chief among them is that I'm busy and I have a family and I only have so much time each day to do keyboard stuff (much of which was recently consumed with shipping tsangan kits).  This was on the backburner for a variety of reasons for a long time, but it *will* finish.  You are right that I should have posted more often on the status of things.  It was always my intention to do so, but you know, busy.  I don't post nearly as much as I used to, in general, so :P

A few people have offered to help finish this out, and that's probably a good idea.  Again, I go into detail about this a couple pages back, but for a long time we (hazel, litster and I) felt we needed to be very careful with these legends.  In retrospect that seems really silly.  I'll be posting the SVGs once this is all done with, and of course the finished tooling at SP will be freely usable by anyone who wants to do a GB with them.  Use by vendors is still something I'm not sure about since these are community-funded, but again the landscape has changed since this project started so I'm feeling a lot more liberal than before.

I'll post a more detailed breakdown of where we are later on when I get home.

Offline OrangeJewce

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Those in charge of this have been active and posting in other threads so I'm not sure whats up, but I certainly don't have a warm fuzzy feeling any more.

Please chill out dan, nothing is wrong.  If you go back a couple of pages I owned up freely to the fact that this has taken much, much longer than I would have liked, and I list a bunch of reasons.  Chief among them is that I'm busy and I have a family and I only have so much time each day to do keyboard stuff (much of which was recently consumed with shipping tsangan kits).  This was on the backburner for a variety of reasons for a long time, but it *will* finish.  You are right that I should have posted more often on the status of things.  It was always my intention to do so, but you know, busy.  I don't post nearly as much as I used to, in general, so :P

A few people have offered to help finish this out, and that's probably a good idea.  Again, I go into detail about this a couple pages back, but for a long time we (hazel, litster and I) felt we needed to be very careful with these legends.  In retrospect that seems really silly.  I'll be posting the SVGs once this is all done with, and of course the finished tooling at SP will be freely usable by anyone who wants to do a GB with them.  Use by vendors is still something I'm not sure about since these are community-funded, but again the landscape has changed since this project started so I'm feeling a lot more liberal than before.

I'll post a more detailed breakdown of where we are later on when I get home.

Personally, I don't want any project that returns profit to have access to these legends. Community funded should imply non-profit. I implore this to be taken under advisement. Given the GMK situation I for one don't trust vendor's motives at all.

Cheers,
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Offline MKULTRA

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Quote
Am I misunderstanding this paragraph then? New SVGs means new prototypes iirc?

Cheers,

SVG is the file format for the vector images of the legends.

Offline dorkvader

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Quote
Am I misunderstanding this paragraph then? New SVGs means new prototypes iirc?

Cheers,

SVG is the file format for the vector images of the legends.

I would imagine that updating the SVG files for the legends would necessitate new prototypes to ensure the legends are better (and not worse) and don't have any issues. That said, if the changes are slight, perhaps it's not necessary. WE don't want to overthink a potential issue that's 0.01 mm in reality.

Offline esoomenona

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I think if its a project that may make a profit, as long as its not a commercial deal, perhaps as long as they keep everything transparent and donate a percentage of the profit, like 25%, to geekhack may be good. Thoughts?

Offline SmallFry

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I think if its a project that may make a profit, as long as its not a commercial deal, perhaps as long as they keep everything transparent and donate a percentage of the profit, like 25%, to geekhack may be good. Thoughts?
PROJECT SCOOPS NEXT!

Offline hashbaz

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SCOOOOPPSSSS


Offline SmallFry

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Offline esoomenona

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I really need to get back on that. Maybe when I get back home, I'll try to get some more work done on it.

Offline SmallFry

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I was kidding, mainly. Though if you are serious, that'd be awesome!

Offline MKULTRA

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Quote
Am I misunderstanding this paragraph then? New SVGs means new prototypes iirc?

Cheers,

SVG is the file format for the vector images of the legends.

I would imagine that updating the SVG files for the legends would necessitate new prototypes to ensure the legends are better (and not worse) and don't have any issues. That said, if the changes are slight, perhaps it's not necessary. WE don't want to overthink a potential issue that's 0.01 mm in reality.

Yes you are correct.  I was just informing him on exactly what an svg is.

Offline danielucf

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I've been offering to help for ages, and I still have plenty of free time to help. Also pertaining to some other comments, not very many keys have had prototypes made (maybe 7+/-) so there isn't much set back from making new SVGs. As far as I can discern what is left is finishing SVGs, probably one prototype round maybe two, and finishing money collection. My fiance works in illustrator all the time as a professional artist so she could probably even help, and I can help with the Toxic group buy to cover what ever is left for the legend fees. Help me help you :p
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Offline hashbaz

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No worries dan.  You just rouse a bit too much rabble sometimes.

Offline Ragnorock

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As a vendor who would like to use these legends in an upcoming group buy, I would be willing to make a donation to GH as some sort of licensing fee, but I don't want to set precedent. I already messaged Hashbaz that I want to do as much as I can to contribute toward the project instead of just using them. Whether that is my time making .svgs, helping with funding, or contributing in some other way, I'm not looking to take advantage of other people's work. I do know that just about everyone here could go a long time without another WYSE set being made, so in the interest of those people, I'd like to do what I can to get them the legends they want if possible.

Offline i3oilermaker

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I have expressed my opinion on this as well, that when this set is polished it should replace the WYSE set for group buys and vendor sets.  It benefits the GH users because they have more Cherry font sets available for them to purchase, whether they choose to join a group buy and front the money for production, or pay a vendor who fronted the money.  In my opinion the more color options there are the better for the GH consumer.

Offline OrangeJewce

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I think if its a project that may make a profit, as long as its not a commercial deal, perhaps as long as they keep everything transparent and donate a percentage of the profit, like 25%, to geekhack may be good. Thoughts?

I disagree. Why should our community let others profiteer off of our community efforts without having to do anything themselves? It should be a 100% profit donation to geekhack in my opinion. Sherry/Hazel did all the work for the Exocet font, and they are using it to make money. I have no problem with this. But after seeing a complete lack of transparency with GMK, what's to stop vendors from using Cherry replica to subvert other community efforts if it's 100% free use?

As a vendor who would like to use these legends in an upcoming group buy, I would be willing to make a donation to GH as some sort of licensing fee, but I don't want to set precedent. I already messaged Hashbaz that I want to do as much as I can to contribute toward the project instead of just using them. Whether that is my time making .svgs, helping with funding, or contributing in some other way, I'm not looking to take advantage of other people's work. I do know that just about everyone here could go a long time without another WYSE set being made, so in the interest of those people, I'd like to do what I can to get them the legends they want if possible.

I think it's great you want to help with the GH project Rag, but your motive shouldn't be "I'm doing this because then I get to make money off of the community for doing them this favor", it should be "I'm doing this because I love GH, and I don't care about the time and money." I don't mean to insinuate that the former is your motive for volunteering, just want to make it clear it's neigh impossible for us to know. To that end, I think OTD has the right approach by banning any profits off of community projects, like the OTD 356 keyboards.

I have expressed my opinion on this as well, that when this set is polished it should replace the WYSE set for group buys and vendor sets.  It benefits the GH users because they have more Cherry font sets available for them to purchase, whether they choose to join a group buy and front the money for production, or pay a vendor who fronted the money.  In my opinion the more color options there are the better for the GH consumer.

I don't buy into this argument. 1) All vendors are driven by demand as a vendor, and there are people (a significant number I would reckon) who want WYSE sets. Therefore to say that WYSE is going to go the way of the dinosaur is based solely on demand at this moment is just not realistic. Demand does swing heavily in Cherry's favor right now, and a major lack of supply is a contributing factor. 2) I feel you are taking the old "Help me help you" position, and that is setting the consumer up for exploitation, if history teaches us anything.

I think further comments should probably be split off into it's own thread. Mods, what do you think?

Cheers,

P.S.
These are all my personal opinions on the matter at hand, and I do not intend to attack any member when using your name. I'm sorry if you are offended in any way, this is not my intent. I just want to have a cordial discussion and I really like this community!
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Offline aggiejy

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Thanks for your cordial opinion, I think this is a constructive conversation.  (Not to say it shouldn't be split eventually...)  You make good points certainly, but I think there's also a case to be had for allowing vendors access.  I seriously doubt everyone will come to consensus on this, but my personal opinion is that the more options people have when you go to buy keycaps, the better.  If there's a scenario where vendors use the legends and it effectively kills lower-cost group buys causing the prices to inflate, that wouldn't be good.  I guess I just don't see it playing out that way.  Perhaps the middle ground is to retain rights, and allow access to vendors with certain fair-use rules.  That way, if things get out of hand, it's easy to correct moving forward.

Offline OrangeJewce

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Thanks for your cordial opinion, I think this is a constructive conversation.  (Not to say it shouldn't be split eventually...)  You make good points certainly, but I think there's also a case to be had for allowing vendors access.  I seriously doubt everyone will come to consensus on this, but my personal opinion is that the more options people have when you go to buy keycaps, the better.  If there's a scenario where vendors use the legends and it effectively kills lower-cost group buys causing the prices to inflate, that wouldn't be good.  I guess I just don't see it playing out that way.  Perhaps the middle ground is to retain rights, and allow access to vendors with certain fair-use rules.  That way, if things get out of hand, it's easy to correct moving forward.
aggiejy,

If events with GMK teach us anything, it should be that vendor access does kill low-cost GBs. There won't be a community skidata, dolch, etc. GMK buy because ONE vendor got there first. And the reality is vendors will always get there first. That's one of the advantages they have. Furthermore, they can exploit ICs and preempt a group buy. It's already happened, and it will likely happen again if we don't take precautions. Fact is vendor vs. GB results in the vendor winning every single time. GB's trade speed and an increased trust barrier for lower prices, which it appears at least on GH isn't enough.

Right now there is extremely high demand for Cherry Font keycaps. As soon as some supply gets pushed out the door, and values of the keys go down, then maybe I'd reconsider. But there's a lot of money to be made here, and that translates into strong motive. I just don't see any reason to trust vendors at this juncture given recent events.

I've seen several GB's get turned into vendor fodder (Breaking Bad, Valentine, Sanctuary), and that has made me, if not just a little, bitter over recent conduct. At some point we as a community need to draw the line, and I think this is it.

Cheers,
IBM Model M 1390120, Otaku Unicomp+RGB, CM QFR Green, Ducky YOTD Red, SSK MKII,
ErgoDox Blue, ErgoDox White

Offline Ragnorock

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I would just like to add that the only reason that I am considered a vendor is that I structure group buys in a way that is both very low cost but I can still make a bit of money from it. I use the vendor title as an excuse to cover expenses like custom legends myself and build the cost into the keyset, making for a much more streamlined process. Even now I only do these group buys in my free time, between school and a million other real life things. I do do it for the community... Look at the imsto group buy, it is maximized work with really minimal reward for me other than getting keys I really want. It isn't my job. If it was I would have a new group buy coming out every other week consistently.

Offline esoomenona

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That's what I meant when I said not commercial. Or even like what Brad does where he runs a group buy and his extra orders actually can help to bring our cost down (and his as well obviously). What I didn't want was what Orange Jewce is saying.

Offline alaricljs

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If events with GMK teach us anything, it should be that vendor access does kill low-cost GBs. There won't be a community skidata, dolch, etc. GMK buy because ONE vendor got there first.

What?  I don't think that's the reason at all.  Sure a vendor got there months before anyone else and ordered classic colorways.  However, do you remember seeing the MOQ?  How many GBs have gotten to that MOQ?  Also understand that GMK is highly unlikely to be "gentle" with the MOQ on any sub-set such as differently colored mod sets and that the MOQ goes up as the cap count goes down.

I don't think our community can conform to the order requirements of GMK on any substantial set.
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Offline rknize

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    • metaruss
To take that a step further, it is not in the best interest of a vendor to try to cut in front of a group buy.  This is especially true of some of the faster ones we have seen lately.  The GB will likely still undercut the vendor's price and the market would then be flooded with double or more sets of that type.  Not a smart move for someone trying to make a profit.  This is, of course, not even addressing the issue of community relationship with that vendor.

Yeah, Sherry got there first and ordered the most popular Cherry colorways months ago.  Think about the GMK MOQ times four.  That is a huge risk!

So this project has morphed from an attempt to emulate Cherry sets with SP's profile into a nice legend set as an alternative to Wyse.  I think that is great and will work well with the unique ideas that come from the community.
Russ