Israel Needs To Return To 1967 Borders and Stop The Palestinian Apartheid

[Oqsy]

The number of Chrstians in the US that really believe in that has to be a minor blip in the statistics. I live in a fairly evangelical part of the south, and I know zero people that back Israel because "it will help bring Jesus back". I hear MUCH more about it from snobby anti-christians that want to paint with a wide brush and dismiss anyone who disagrees with the Zionist Conspiracy Theory as a fringe lunatic. Stop regurgitating the Rapture/Armageddon nonsense, it weakens your argument.

[Malphas]

It was an aside, and it's still worth noting anyway.  There's strong Israel support from conservative Christian America for one reason or another, which is a major factor in the whole debacle.  We wouldn't be as tied up in the Middle East as we are if it was just Jewish lobby groups that were pro-Israel (admittedly oil has something to do with it as well).

[neo]

I'm not a historian.

Alright then, let's talk as one comedian to another.

...but today the impetus for a Jewish state in Palestine is just fundamental religious nonsense.

The absolute majority of Israeli Jews today have been born in Israel, a lot of them in second, third, forth, etc. generation. But you are saying this is not the reason they live in Israel, the real reason they live in Israel "is fundamental religious nonsense"? Even though absolute majority of Israeli Jews define themselves as non-religious (far more than Americans, for example)?

Religion did not play any notable role in creation of Israel (Zionism has been a secular movement from the inception), and it certainly is not "impetus for a Jewish state today", because today these (almost entirely non-religious) people simply live in the country where they were born, on the land where they were born.

And you don't even have to get away from this thread to see that the very reason Israel was created in the first place, the atrocious anti-Semitism, did not disappear with the creation of Israel. Existence of Israel just made it much harder for anti-Semites to achieve their goal. Which seems to be driving them completely bonkers.

[Malphas]

I realise there's a few generations of European immigrants in Israel now, that's why I said:

Too late now though.

Also, I did notice your rather transparent attempt to bait me with the Herzl reference earlier, with that failed you're now simply trying to claim Zionism is unrelated to religion? That's the most hilarious thing in this thread so far.  If that were case why did they choose Palestine rather than say, I dunno, anywhere else in the world other a subcontinent filled mainly with Muslim anti-Semites to found a Jewish State where they'd be free from anti-Semitism?  I can swap impetus out for "justification" if that makes you feel better.  The argument that several generations of European Jews have been born there doesn't really excuse the whole situation, or the fact Israel should never have been founded in the first place.  Did you support African apartheid so that the White population could live in the land where they were born?

[thebilgerat]

And you don't even have to get away from this thread to see that the very reason Israel was created in the first place, the atrocious anti-Semitism, did not disappear with the creation of Israel. Existence of Israel just made it much harder for anti-Semites to achieve their goal. Which seems to be driving them completely bonkers.

Just realize that the anti-semite argument is just another extension of Godwin's Law, and equally as useless.  Throwing around "Anti-Semite" is also disingenuous to all of the other cultures who also share that root language.  What about the Ugarits, or the Akkadians?  Co-Opting a hate term that includes many many similar cultures to simply refer to your specific culture is lame.  There is no vast anti-Zionist conspiracy anymore than there is a Zionist one.

And just because a poll suggests that Israeli jews are more secular than their western brethren, does not change the fact that they are showing themselves to be as equally racist as the teutons who hauled them wholesale to extermination camps.  To their own objectors within they silence as brutally as they are allowed, and to the outside observer, they yell "anti-semite."

How are we supposed to respond as goyim?  I am as equally disgusted with the Holocaust as I am with the Jewish destruction of Palestine, for the exact same reasons.  Jews should know better.

[Malphas]

Basically Neo, you're arguing that it was justified for the Jews (who are now far more European than they are actual Jews ethnically) to march into an already populated country and claim it because a small number of their ancestors from fifteen centuries ago once lived there, but now that they've been there again for a few generations that land now belongs to them?  Do you not see what an insane and hypocritical argument this is?

Yes, it's done now and that's all there is to it, but it was never an acceptable thing to happen, and now there's no solution to it.  Frankly, I don't even care what happens down there as long as my taxes aren't used to interfere in it, whilst making the west a target for terrorism at the same time.

[vils]

The majority of Israel's jewish population have their roots in islamic countries from where they where expelled in the wake of 1948.

[Malphas]

They also have the second highest skin cancer rate in the world after Australia.  Which - like in Australia - is indicative of people that aren't genetically acclimatised to the climate (i.e. they're not from there).

[vils]

Australians go home?

[Malphas]

I don't think the way indigenous Australians were treated by European settlers was acceptable, do you?

[vils]

No. Certinaly not the Tasmanians.

[neo]

Also, I did notice your rather transparent attempt to bait me with the Herzl reference earlier, with that failed you're now simply trying to claim Zionism is unrelated to religion? That's the most hilarious thing in this thread so far.  If that were case why did they choose Palestine rather than say, I dunno, anywhere else in the world other a subcontinent filled mainly with Muslim anti-Semites to found a Jewish State where they'd be free from anti-Semitism?

Yes, Zionism is unrelated to religion. The forefathers of Zionism did seriously consider places other than Palestine for a future Jewish nation-state. The Palestine was eventually chosen because of strong historic connection and the fact that at the time it was a wasteland with barely any population (we are talking about 19th century). And Muslim anti-Semitism did not look nearly as bad as European anti-Semitism did at the time.

The argument that several generations of European Jews have been born there doesn't really excuse the whole situation, or the fact Israel should never have been founded in the first place.

I don't know what do you mean by "doesn't really excuse the whole situation", why "situation" needs an "excuse"? And why do you think "Israel should never have been founded in the first place"? If anything, it should have been founded sooner, so six million men, women, children and infants would not have been systematically exterminated in gas chambers.

Did you support African apartheid so that the White population could live in the land where they were born?

I did (and do) support the right of white (or any other) population to live in the land where they were born. Apartheid has nothing to do with it.

[Malphas]

You don't feel migrating into someone else's country and claiming it as your own, and then brutalising and marginalising the original occupants doesn't even warrant an excuse?  Wow, just wow...  Is it any wonder there's increasing anti-Zionist sentiment from the Arab world, Europe, Jewish organisations, and internationally, when you have people with attitudes like that.

Yes, Zionism is unrelated to religion.

Jewish nation-state.

That doesn't work, by the way.

[neo]

Just realize that the anti-semite argument is just another extension of Godwin's Law, and equally as useless.  Throwing around "Anti-Semite" is also disingenuous to all of the other cultures who also share that root language.  What about the Ugarits, or the Akkadians?  Co-Opting a hate term that includes many many similar cultures to simply refer to your specific culture is lame.  There is no vast anti-Zionist conspiracy anymore than there is a Zionist one.

The word "anti-Semitism" means hatred of Jews, irrespective of what the word "Semitic" means. If you don't believe me, look in the dictionary. The word itself was introduced by European racists, who proudly called themselves anti-Semites, to highlight the fact that the hatred is ethnic and includes Jews who converted to Christianity.

And just because a poll suggests that Israeli jews are more secular than their western brethren, does not change the fact that they are showing themselves to be as equally racist as the teutons who hauled them wholesale to extermination camps.  To their own objectors within they silence as brutally as they are allowed, and to the outside observer, they yell "anti-semite."

How are we supposed to respond as goyim?  I am as equally disgusted with the Holocaust as I am with the Jewish destruction of Palestine, for the exact same reasons.  Jews should know better.

Yes, it is indeed difficult to criticize Israel, precisely because all the racists who once proudly called themselves anti-Semites, today call themselves anti-Zionists (with no less pride) and pretend to be "simply critical of Israel's policies". In my opinion, anyone who wants to be heard when criticizing Israel, should make an extensive effort at least to appear to be objective. Statements like "I am as equally disgusted with the Holocaust as I am with the Jewish destruction of Palestine" do not help. There is no comparison for anyone who would make even the minimal effort to be objective.

[silat]

LOL you guys.. Please research before you get all lovey dovey with the PLO..

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas said Friday he is adamant about not recognizing Israel as the Jewish state.
Abbas last month:
“They talk to us about the Jewish state, but I respond to them with a final answer: We shall not recognize a Jewish state,” Abbas said in a meeting with some 200 senior representatives of the Palestinians community in the US, shortly before taking the podium and delivering a speech at the United Nations General Assembly.

[insilica]

Basically Israel (or Palestine as it would have been called then) was being run by the British and already had a Jewish population, with their own paramilitary/terrorist groups, similar to the Palestinian ones like Hezbollah today.  The grief they were causing (rightly or wrongly) combined with the influx of Holocaust survivors coming into Palestine drove the British to just say to hell with it and leave.  The UN stepped in and tried to find some arrangement between the Arab and (increased) Jew populations by splitting the country in two, the Jews were fine with it but the Arabs weren't and started behaving like pricks.  The Jews decided they ran the show now (before Britain had even fully pulled out) and Palestine was now called Israel, the Arab world wasn't too pleased with this and led to the Arab-Israeli war and the Six-Day War and everything ever since essentially.

Basically the Jews are douches, and mainly of European descent which is further argument that Israel is an illegitimate colonial power, they're supported by the USA due to lobby groups and the legacy of Cold War politics, which in turn has dragged some other Western countries in as well.  The Arabs are also douches; backward, xenophobic, unreasonable ones at that.  None of this would really matter to us (by us I mean North American and European, which I assume makes up the most part of the forum) if our governments had just kept their noses out, and remained neutral or indifferent to the whole Arab-Israeli conflict instead of throwing their weight behind Israel for no good reason.  Especially considering Israeli's blatant human-rights abuse, criminal/borderline-criminal covert ops (going around assassinating ex-Nazi's in other countries), and the fact they attacked a US naval ship while they were going to war with their neighbours, killing 34 and wounding 171 (to be fair, it was an "accident" though).

+1


I mean this whole fight for land is a bit retarded. Humans evolve, people come and go, the demographic changes. No one owns ****! Can you take it with you to the GRAVE? NO! How laughable would it be if Native Americans (yes I mean American Indian) not White Caucasians originating from Europe! nor African Americans, suddenly proclaim the entire US of A as spiritual land! occupied by Europeans and begin a resistance. You wonder of the irony while the US backs Israel 100%.

No one should be above the LAW! just feels wrong the world we're living in. The Arabs didn't hurt the Jews, the Arabs didn't send Jews to concentration camps. The Arabs didn't steal bank accounts of Holocaust victims! (even the US did- naughty!) The Arabs for many centuries lived in perfect harmony among their cousins - yes cousins. Obviously if you are an ashkenazi Jew you don't know WTF I'm talking about. The Europeans punished the Jews and in turn they are paying for it, and they should for allowing such a brute of a country to carry out such despicable acts! I'm glad the US is occupying Germany! Never again shall they carry out such atrocities. However the double standards are a far cry from equality. While the world cried Holocaust many forget massacres in Bosnia and Herzegovina, I wonder if it's because the massacred were Muslims in the heart of Europe and the perpetrators were Christians.

This Arab business is retarded. Palestinians flocked to sell their land to Jews for a quick profit. This is the truth. Looking at history you will find Arabs are the most corruptible bunch of people in the history of man! Just look at the state of the Middle East or further the fall of the Moors (well they're kinda Arab more Berber though).

Israel is sorely mistaken if it thinks it has an ally for life. The US is after it's own interests. Israel is simply the best hand the US. has to play with atm. The second Israel looses appeal then it can kiss goodbye the millions if not billions of dollars of American Tax dollar it receives on a yearly basis (would these monies no be better spent on US healthcare), especially in this economic climate!.

Do you honestly think there is an Arab spring when the puppet governments are in there because we put them in there. The real joke was getting rid of Saddam. LoL. This is the new agenda: Our leaders have their thinking caps on and are being dictated to by there masters!  Democracies in the Middle East will drive down the price of Oil among other things. The economy in the west is poor so expect a WAR! We need to sell weapons! Also destroying/leveling countries like Libya will help us win contract to rebuild the country!

But generally condemning anything Israel does is anti-Semitic. I have read many texts by Noam Chomsky, Norman Frankenstein and Ilan Pappe to name a few, and anyone  interested should read text from these great scholars, in particular relating to the Palestinian struggle. But seriously read, absorb, do not be outspoken unless you have a death wish. OK gross exaggeration: if you do and if you irritate the wrong people you risk being labelled anti-Semitic, it can destroy your career, your life and your future (especially if you live in the US.).

The news in the WEST is very biased, it's weird if your a Christian bashing a Sikh - the BBC refers to you as a religious zealous, if your Jewish bashing a Muslim your an Orthodox Jew or do you even have a name? Pay attention next time! It's so bad that when you hear the word Muslim you automatically associate it with death and terrorism! If you think that 1.6 billion people are terrorists then clearly  you have issues.  If your a nationalist and beat up a Jew your labelled racist. But if your Muslim, your a terrorist, a fundamentalist, an asylum seeker. In the US the news always refers to Muslims as terrorists.

I don't care which religion you are, which GOD you preach or which sexual orientation you have. YOU DO NOT KILL, TORTURE IN THE NAME OF THE INTANGIBLE. And if you do, you should be held accountable!

BTW! the Palestine issue will never be solved! because if the US allows it to be solved then it means the Arabs can get on with their lives. So as long as the Arabs are occupied they can never progress!

[neo]

You don't feel migrating into someone else's country and claiming it as your own, and then brutalising and marginalising the original occupants doesn't even warrant an excuse?  Wow, just wow...  Is it any wonder there's increasing anti-Zionist sentiment from the Arab world, Europe, Jewish organisations, and internationally, when you have people with attitudes like that.

Every decent piece of land on this planet has been "occupied" and "re-occupied" multiple times. This was the norm throughout the human history everywhere and still is in many parts of the world. If an excuse would make you feel better, the necessity to defend themselves from European anti-Semites is a far better excuse than pretty much any other "occupiers" ever had.

That doesn't work, by the way.

Sure it does. As someone who didn't bite an obvious bait you should know the forefathers of Zionism did not speak of religious identity when they described the "Jewish nation-state".

[Malphas]

Just because it happened in the past doesn't make it acceptable now, that's the worst argument I've heard yet.  Genocide has been a recurring theme throughout human history too, does that make another holocaust acceptable then?  And you can't separate Jewishness from Judaism, just as you can't create a Jewish state without being influenced by religion.

Your arguments are morally and rationally bankrupt and can be summarised as "occupation of an other country and mistreatment of the existing population is acceptable because:

A) it's happened in the past and therefore is OK now,
B) Jews have suffered persecution and therefore allowed to create their own country at the expense of someone else's
C) the Jewish population in general may have some tenuous genetic link to the occupants of the area over a thousand years ago, therefore they have a legitimate claim to take it back now
D) There have been a few generations born in the area now so that somehow makes the previous actions justified
E) If you disagree with any of this you're an anti-Semite and a racist."

[neo]

Just because it happened in the past doesn't make it acceptable now, that's the worst argument I've heard yet.

What do you mean "acceptable now"? Whatever "occupation" of Palestine you are talking about, it happened few generations ago. It is no less acceptable than any other "occupation" which happened long time ago.

And you can't separate Jewishness from Judaism,

I wouldn't try to, but I know a lot of people call themselves non-religious Jews and atheist Jews. They believe they share common ethnicity, history, culture, and I will take their word that they are in fact Jewish, over your word that they are not.

[neo]

Your arguments are morally and rationally bankrupt and can be summarised as "occupation of an other country and mistreatment of the existing population is acceptable because:

A) it's happened in the past and therefore is OK now,
B) Jews have suffered persecution and therefore allowed to create their own country at the expense of someone else's
C) the Jewish population in general may have some tenuous genetic link to the occupants of the area over a thousand years ago, therefore they have a legitimate claim to take it back now
D) There have been a few generations born in the area now so that somehow makes the previous actions justified
E) If you disagree with any of this you're an anti-Semite and a racist."

I did not say or imply any of this.

[Malphas]

What do you mean "acceptable now"? Whatever "occupation" of Palestine you are talking about, it happened few generations ago. It is no less acceptable than any other "occupation" which happened long time ago.

So you're agreeing the original Jewish occupation of Palestine, post WW2 was an unacceptable action?  That's all I've been arguing, I dunno how many times I have to point out that what's done is done and Israel exists now regardless and can't just be dissolved.

[Malphas]

I did not say or imply any of this.

Then what are we disagreeing on?  I think the creation of Israel was unjustified, unfair on the existing mostly non-Jewish population, caused a gigantic mess, and that Western governments should have nothing to do with it.  If you disagree, then what's your justification for Zionism?

[neo]

So you're agreeing the original Jewish occupation of Palestine, post WW2 was an unacceptable action?  That's all I've been arguing, I dunno how many times I have to point out that what's done is done and Israel exists now regardless and can't just be dissolved.

There are quite a few distinguishing details about that particular "occupation":

• Considerable number of Jews were living together with Arabs for centuries in the territory called Palestine (a district of various successive empires, as there never was a state called Palestine).
• The Jewish immigration to Palestine was ramping up for a few generations, and there was a very large number of Palestinian Jews (yes, that's how they called themselves), including many who were born in Palestine, by 1948.
• When the last of the empires to control this territory (British) washed it's hands off the whole thing, the Jewish population of Palestine declared it's own state in half the territory of Palestine where Jewish Palestinians were a majority.
• The neighboring Arab states attacked the newly declared state of Israel simultaneously from all sides, and by the end of 1948 war have occupied large parts of Palestine, ethnically cleansed EVERY SINGLE ONE of Palestinian Jews from the territories they occupied, then annexed these territories (instead of creating an Arab Palestinian state there).

Jews (partially) were the foreign immigrants with very different culture, who over the few generations of immigration managed to build sufficient numbers to be able to split the territory in two. Kind of what is happening right now in Europe with Muslim immigration. Would be ironic, if it were to end up the same way, wouldn't it?

[thebilgerat]

The word "anti-Semitism" means hatred of Jews, irrespective of what the word "Semitic" means. If you don't believe me, look in the dictionary. The word itself was introduced by European racists, who proudly called themselves anti-Semites, to highlight the fact that the hatred is ethnic and includes Jews who converted to Christianity.


Yes, it is indeed difficult to criticize Israel, precisely because all the racists who once proudly called themselves anti-Semites, today call themselves anti-Zionists (with no less pride) and pretend to be "simply critical of Israel's policies". In my opinion, anyone who wants to be heard when criticizing Israel, should make an extensive effort at least to appear to be objective. Statements like "I am as equally disgusted with the Holocaust as I am with the Jewish destruction of Palestine" do not help. There is no comparison for anyone who would make even the minimal effort to be objective.

You didn't answer my question.  Your opinion is that whatever the Jews do to the Palestinians is justified and in no way racist, because the Jews having survived the Holocaust have carte blanch to do whatever the hell they want without fear of reprisal or being called racist.  Only Germans can commit genocide, because genocide can only be perpetrated against Jews?  Not all palestinians are PLO, anymore than all Jews are racist ****heads like you.

[thebilgerat]

I did not say or imply any of this.

That is also how I took your statements.  I bet plenty more have taken them that way as well, but refuse to speak out for fear of being called an anti-semite.

[neo]

Your opinion is that whatever the Jews do to the Palestinians is justified and in no way racist, because the Jews having survived the Holocaust have carte blanch to do whatever the hell they want without fear of reprisal or being called racist.  Only Germans can commit genocide, because genocide can only be perpetrated against Jews?

No. My opinion is that what "the Jews do to the Palestinians" is in no way shape or form is even remotely comparable to what the Germans did to the Jews. Just think about it for a second. Two Palestinians who were recently convicted of murdering five members of a Jewish family (which included cutting the throats of two toddlers and a three month old(!) infant, will spend their lives in prison, because there is no death penalty in Israel. Are you honestly going to tell me you see a similarity here with the way Jews were treated by Germans during WWII?

On a related note, in Palestinian Authority there is a death sentence for "selling land to Jews". That is the actual wording from the law.

[thebilgerat]

No. My opinion is that what "the Jews do to the Palestinians" is in no way shape or form is even remotely comparable to what the Germans did to the Jews. Just think about it for a second. Two Palestinians who were recently convicted of murdering five members of a Jewish family (which included cutting the throats of two toddlers and a three month old(!) infant, will spend their lives in prison, because there is no death penalty in Israel. Are you honestly going to tell me you see a similarity here with the way Jews were treated by Germans during WWII?

On a related note, in Palestinian Authority there is a death sentence for "selling land to Jews". That is the actual wording from the law.

The point is that you will always have some excuse, you will use the Germans as the reason, and you know damn good and well that both the palestinians and the jews can pull stories out of their asses for the next thousand years that are like yours about the other.

Who shot Rabin?  Was that a Palestinian?  No, of course it wasn't, it was a jew,  because Rabin was a race traitor.

As for similarities between the German treatment of the jews and jewish treatment of palestinians, from a government standpoint, I honestly see no difference between them.  Human indifference to suffering is the same whether at the barrel end of a gun, the front of a bulldozer, or the entrance to Auschwitz.  it can be perpetrated by americans towards iraqis or afghanis (I have seen this firsthand), spaniards towards native cubans and south americans, or damn near everyone to Africa.  Volume doesn't matter, cultural singling out doesn't matter, method of murder doesn't change it.  What matters is that someone has to stand up and be the better person.

http://www.jewsforajustpeace.com/

Maybe these self-haters can get some Yitzhak justice as well.

[neo]

Who shot Rabin?  Was that a Palestinian?

How is this relevant to anything under discussion? Did anyone ever suggested it was a Palestinian? Or is this supposed to be an example of Jews treating Palestinians exactly like Germans treated Jews (systematically exterminated EVERY SINGLE ONE they ever came across)?

[Lanx]

aztecs/mayans/tasmanians/ all wiped out not by a meteor but by one common thing europeans, American Indians are at the level that Americans put them on "reservations" which is basically like a wildlife preserve, and what were Americans before they were free? europeans. Israel is no different, they want to invade and wipe out, I mean there's a reason the Israeli special forces are feared, and it's not cuz they use stern words.

[thebilgerat]

How is this relevant to anything under discussion? Did anyone ever suggested it was a Palestinian? Or is this supposed to be an example of Jews treating Palestinians exactly like Germans treated Jews (systematically exterminated EVERY SINGLE ONE they ever came across)?

you mean like Oskar Shindler?  I heard he had a real hard-on for jews.  Or the family that hid Anne Frank.  You mistake dislike of a states foreign policy for race hatred.  If the shoe were on the other foot, as they say, I would be clamoring for the palestinians to quit being such douches.  It isn't so I'm not.  Every one is tired of having the Holocaust trotted out at a whim.  Every time it is, it cheapens the massive horrible sacrifice that jews made by the traincar load, Russians made on the eastern front, and the rest of the west through hedgerows and the beaches of Normandy.  We get it- you have cultural ptsd.  Most rational humans are very sympathetic.  The point I make with Rabin is that those peace loving israelis shot the man who may have ended this bull**** years ago, and ever since his death, the bulldozers and wall segments and rocket attacks just keep coming.  I am no longer sympathetic to "But they want to KEEL us!  they're barbarians!  non-persons! MUSLIMS!"  We will never forget the holocaust, but that will not make us blind to hypocrisy or bull****.

[neo]

You are making less and less sense. Yes, many Germans were trying to save human life, and have saved many Jews, but this does not change the fact that Germans were systematically exterminating Jews, and have exterminated six million of them in the gas chambers. There is nothing even remotely comparable to Holocaust in the way Jews treat Palestinians. And it was you, not me, who was comparing Holocaust to the current conflict, so it is in fact you who "cheapen the massive horrible sacrifice..."