Barn Find: 1390120 Model M

[Magnusian]

I found a Model M 1390120 with a birthday of 09MAY86 in a barn, that makes it 4 months older than me. After tracking down an AT to PS/2 adaptor... it works!

Care and feeding has begun, with the case off it I was surprised to find the barrel plate isn't cracked after 26 and a half years, though a lot of the plastic rivets have come off. I'm going to clean it and bolt mod it.

Do you guys think I can use a Unicomp membrane in it without having to replace the controller as well? Their membrane seems to correct some of the worst 2KRO-related clashes, one I can think of being WAR. I do need to call them about getting a new Left Ctrl key since you can't order them directly off their site, I guess I can ask them when I do.

One thing I have noticed right off the bat is how much quieter it is compared to my Unicomp. It has the exact same typefeel, but has a higher pitched ping that is not as loud.

Some pictures of the newest addition to my keyboard family sorry for the tiny thumbnails but imgur seems unwilling to make the larger ones right now:

[fohat.digs]

Nice find!

I would love to have a Model M with the old-style label. I have a couple 0f 1390131s and that heavy plate is sweet.

I have been thinking of buying a new white Unicomp rubber mat for it, because I have heard that they are a lot nicer than the old black ones. I am assuming that it will work, but don't know for sure.

Good luck with the project.

[precarious]

One thing I have noticed right off the bat is how much quieter it is compared to my Unicomp.

One thing I noticed right off the bat is that you found a mechanical keyboard in a barn.  What the hell?

[Halverson]

One thing I have noticed right off the bat is how much quieter it is compared to my Unicomp.

One thing I noticed right off the bat is that you found a mechanical keyboard in a barn.  What the hell?

Barns offer a plethora of old and awesome goods. I found some ancient stetson cologne in a barn once. It was PUNGENT!

Awesome find! Gotta be cool having a board older than you

[Champloo]

Great find!!  I just had to put in some tender loving care on a 1991 Model M, it's awesome to be able to use it after you've put time into fixing it up!

[Soarer]

Mine is one week older!

AFAIK, these LED-less Model Ms were only made for a very short time, and were for late model XTs (1986 onwards) that had a BIOS that could handle them.

I got mine yesterday, hadn't really looked at it until now. Seems to be painted

[nullstring]

  is right.

[Soarer]

is right.

I know. It has a pinkish tint - I guess it's magnolia  )  It doesn't look to have been done recently.

I only bought it to play with the XT mode on it, so as long as it basically works (which it does*) I don't really mind about the cosmetics.

* Loads of rivets broken, but only seems to affect ctrl, space etc., and even then not badly.

[Magnusian]

Mine is one week older!

AFAIK, these LED-less Model Ms were only made for a very short time, and were for late model XTs (1986 onwards) that had a BIOS that could handle them.

I got mine yesterday, hadn't really looked at it until now. Seems to be painted

Sweet, I see your's came with Lotus 1-2-3 hotkey labels too. Luckily whoever decided to put them on mine didn't realize they were peel-and-stick and just taped them in place.

This is actually the second 1390120 that's turned up recently for me. I'd actually just purchased one a few weeks ago that was manufactured in '87 or '88 that is in the mail on it's way to me right now.

Mine was actually in a pile of 1391401's that were all up to several years younger. They were laying against several ATs XTs, and PS/2s. I was only allowed to pick one (for free). I have half a mind to go back there tomorrow and rescue the others since the owner of the barn was just going to dumpster "all of the junk" but aside from one of the Model Ms seemed unwilling to let them be parted from the computers they came with. Maybe I'll just have to offer to buy all of the computers so I can get the keyboards. There was a board that looked like an AT Keyboard but with arrow keys shoved into a narrow space and set maybe half a row below the other keys but I didn't bother to check what it was in detail. While there I noticed lots of old computers, plenty of Tandys, Apple IIs, some early Macs, and a few other piles of keyboards that I really want to go through in the hope that maybe a SSK is hiding out in one of them.

I really hope I can track down a ctrl keycap for it, I may have to harvest it off the one in the mail if it matches because while cleaning the keys I noticed that the other ctrl key's legend has a slight purple tinge to it. Having one that didn't match would bother me to no end and I don't think Unicomp does them in any colour except black.

[Soarer]

Yep, Lotus labels, almost falling off. The coloured dot stickers on your modifiers - IIRC I got a set of those with Microsoft C 5.0 or 5.1, which would've been '87 or '89 ish

There's definitely some tint to the control key legends - in fact, to all the keys that look black until you look closely. I'm not sure if it's purple or brown - either would make sense for a 'black' dye - the main alpha legends look brown-ish to me.

If it were me I'd grab all of the XTs and ATs, and leave the '1401s

The one with the arrow keys squished in could be a Cherry G80-1800 perhaps?

[Magnusian]

I don't think so, the F keys were on the left side like an AT Keyboard.

[Soarer]

I can't think what it could be then. Apart from 'curious' / 'interesting'. Get that one as well!

[SmallFry]

Very nice find! I love the boards that just happen to come your way. Made my day a few months ago when my Dad came home with a G80-1800. It got a tender bath, and soon to be sand blasting to remove some of the shine.

[rootwyrm]

There's definitely some tint to the control key legends - in fact, to all the keys that look black until you look closely. I'm not sure if it's purple or brown - either would make sense for a 'black' dye - the main alpha legends look brown-ish to me.

It's brown and it's actually intentional, not accidental. I don't know how they did it exactly, but best description I have is mixing black and the brown used on later LED numpad secondaries. (Yes, they are supposed to be brown. Gray is also a normal color.) Don't see it much on the regular keyboards though, to tell the truth. Seen it on an APL layout terminal M I have around here somewhere, too - the 37 set is black/brown.

Reasoning on the Ctrl being brown I believe, is same as later Alts being green, but don't hold me to that one. Just seems the most logical conclusion; may be the controller uses Ctrl modifier page instead of the Alt modifier page.

[Magnusian]

The majority of the keys definitely have purple legends. Alt is green, SysRq is green, secondary numbpad functions are brown.

Just finished scrubbing the keys and case, time for the barrel plate, which is where the worst of the grime is, looks like I'll be spending a lot of time with q-tips and iso on it. I had taped plastic over the label on the back cover but some water managed to sneak in around the edges, hopefully it dries without doing too much damage. It's a heck of a lot cleaner, and the keys look brand new now, but some of the grime on the case just didn't want to come completely off.

Also, dummy me washed one of the stamps on the inside of the shell off. I didn't realize that the ink would come right off.

[Magnusian]

Sorry for the double-post but I wanted to show off the shots I took of the post-cleaning. 26.5 years and some soap, water, and iso makes it look almost brand new!



There's still a little gunk from the tape that was across the top, I'll have to get some goo gone or something because the iso wasn't getting it all off.



Cleaning the barrel plate was the really tough job, I went through something like 40 q-tips scrubbing it out and there's still some gunk on it. It's way cleaner now though.

[rootwyrm]

The majority of the keys definitely have purple legends. Alt is green, SysRq is green, secondary numbpad functions are brown.

Weird. That does sound like fade - I've never seen it before myself, though. (And as HP's Color Critical folks can attest to, my color vision is exceptional.) The only cause I can think of is a chemical reaction. Given it was in a barn, gods only know what chemical exactly. Unfortunately the pictures aren't really showing the purple.

Also, dummy me washed one of the stamps on the inside of the shell off. I didn't realize that the ink would come right off.

Yeah, I've done that to every last one I've rebuilt. The problem is that they used regular stamp ink, which doesn't actually adhere to the plastic at all. It comes right off with a dry kleenex, much less any sort of liquid, so I just gave up on trying to preserve those.

[fohat.digs]

You better go to that barn tomorrow morning with at least one $100 bill and beg the owner not to throw away those keyboards!

I agree with Soarer that the Model Fs are the ones to grab, if you can't get them all.

Or maybe offer $10 each for the "entire" computers and give all the discards to charity, or toss them.

[Krogenar]

Great find, thanks for sharing! The only thing better than buying a Model M has got to be finding one 'in the wild' and rescuing it from destruction! (Getting a good deal on it as being 'junk' is like sex with twin supermodels.) Fohat is right -- go back and offer to take all the old crappy computers off his hands for $100 -- you'll make the money back for sure.

[Magnusian]

There's something up with the right shift key. It has a habit of randomly sticking down when pressed on the left side. It's definitely something with the key itself, not the keyboard. I tried the key in another 1390120 (about 8 months younger than this one) I own that doesn't have this issue and the key would stick. Tried the key from the younger board in this one and it doesn't stick. I noticed that the mark on the inside of the older key says 18 while the newer one says 27, there's no other physical difference that I can tell between them, even the micrometer says they're basically the same in every other way.

Also, I checked the newer board's legend really closely, and it's the same purple colour as the keys on this one. Since both are less than a year apart in age, perhaps it's due to fading? Either that or this particular shade of black looks purple to me.

[rootwyrm]

There's something up with the right shift key. It has a habit of randomly sticking down when pressed on the left side. It's definitely something with the key itself, not the keyboard. I tried the key in another 1390120 (about 8 months younger than this one) I own that doesn't have this issue and the key would stick. Tried the key from the younger board in this one and it doesn't stick. I noticed that the mark on the inside of the older key says 18 while the newer one says 27, there's no other physical difference that I can tell between them, even the micrometer says they're basically the same in every other way.

Yeah, that's not an uncommon issue with some of the keys on the M's. Usually it's the flashing on the keycap sticking in the empty barrel. Bit of high grit sandpaper or very careful X-acto work on the keycap will usually clear it up, sometimes a bit of lithium grease in the barrel. Other times it's just a bad key stem - cracked or warped or what have you - and the only choice is to replace the key.

Also, I checked the newer board's legend really closely, and it's the same purple colour as the keys on this one. Since both are less than a year apart in age, perhaps it's due to fading? Either that or this particular shade of black looks purple to me.

I can't possibly see how it's fading. No offense, but I'm wondering if you're maybe seeing something there. I mean in all seriousness, I have seen and worked on no small amount of M's and I've never seen purple. Not once, ever. Not ruling anything out, but really, really want to see a good picture of this purple. May have to futz with settings on the camera to get it true to what you're seeing. Or if you can Pantone match it. Might be able to figure out what's up.

[Krogenar]

Model M keycap legends are dye-sublimated, correct?

[SmallFry]

Model M keycap legends are dye-sublimated, correct?

That is correct. M keys are also PBT.

[rootwyrm]

Model M keycap legends are dye-sublimated, correct?

That is correct. M keys are also PBT.

Yupyup, though there's also other materials used for some models including some form of POM. (I forget what the industrial versions used.) IBM used a different PBT formulation than what you can get today - remember these are pre-RoHS - which seems to be far more durable than the current PBT formulations.
The strongest PBT keycaps seem to be found on '87-'92, with the weakest being '99 and '94. The '99 keycaps, I usually have the FJ indicators almost rubbed off in ~6 months. The '91 two-piece PBTs, I 'dish out' the keycap without ever managing to dent the nub. (Worth noting the two-piece are PBT upper and I believe ABS lower.)

[fohat.digs]

I have tossed a bunch of the "lower" stem pieces in boiling RIT dye just for kicks, and none of them have ever deformed, so I doubt that they are ABS.

But, they all came from <1994 Model Ms, I think.

[rootwyrm]

I have tossed a bunch of the "lower" stem pieces in boiling RIT dye just for kicks, and none of them have ever deformed, so I doubt that they are ABS.

But, they all came from <1994 Model Ms, I think.

Huh - I'll admit I've never tried that. I figured ABS because of the look and general feel. It could be the specific formulation of ABS, or it could be the thickness, or it could be something else entirely. I don't think an RoHS Model M exists except Unicomp, but I know they changed plastics at various points due to regulation changes on the road to RoHS. (Where exactly, I don't know for sure.) Might be PVC?

[Krogenar]

Yupyup, though there's also other materials used for some models including some form of POM. (I forget what the industrial versions used.) IBM used a different PBT formulation than what you can get today - remember these are pre-RoHS - which seems to be far more durable than the current PBT formulations.

Krog: (spoken to factory worker in wheelchair, connected to oxygen supply) "Well I'm sorry if you're offended by my need for superior keycaps! (crosses arms)

Cool to know that some Model M's are potentially made with POM -- I figured only the really ancient, spherical-style keycaps were POM.

[rootwyrm]

Yupyup, though there's also other materials used for some models including some form of POM. (I forget what the industrial versions used.) IBM used a different PBT formulation than what you can get today - remember these are pre-RoHS - which seems to be far more durable than the current PBT formulations.

Krog: (spoken to factory worker in wheelchair, connected to oxygen supply) "Well I'm sorry if you're offended by my need for superior keycaps! (crosses arms)

Hahahaha! The funny thing is that RoHS isn't even about that - that's OSHA, ISO, etcetera! RoHS was about the stuff getting thrown out and consumer handling! Don't want no lead solder in our water supply or something!
But yeah, it's akin to the car paint thing from the 80's. Some years and some colors peel right off the primer. Others are fine. Lots of changes occurred right on up through the 90's with regards to chemistry, especially in plastics. So there's actually a number of similar but slightly different formulas which behave slightly differently under different conditions. So it really could be that they're actually purple and it's a result of a chemical reaction in that particular formulation of plastic or dye which was corrected deliberately or incidentally in the next one.

Cool to know that some Model M's are potentially made with POM -- I figured only the really ancient, spherical-style keycaps were POM.

They're out there. I have -a- set. It's the only one I've ever seen though. But generally speaking, IBM doesn't make one of anything, so there's probably more out there. I'm guessing POM was an RPQ for a large industrial or Point of Sale customer given the rarity though.

[Krogenar]

Hahahaha! The funny thing is that RoHS isn't even about that - that's OSHA, ISO, etcetera! RoHS was about the stuff getting thrown out and consumer handling! Don't want no lead solder in our water supply or something!

(rolls eyes) "Oh the precious, precious Earth!"

But yeah, it's akin to the car paint thing from the 80's. Some years and some colors peel right off the primer. Others are fine. Lots of changes occurred right on up through the 90's with regards to chemistry, especially in plastics. So there's actually a number of similar but slightly different formulas which behave slightly differently under different conditions. So it really could be that they're actually purple and it's a result of a chemical reaction in that particular formulation of plastic or dye which was corrected deliberately or incidentally in the next one.

Ok, so maybe the legends were supposed to be purple, or the ink was originally black and after years in sunlight it changed. That would follow from what I've seen of dye sublimation. I manufacture outdoor fabric banners using dye sublimation inks and over a long time a fabric dye sublimated black with take on a purplish hue due to UV damage.

Cool to know that some Model M's are potentially made with POM -- I figured only the really ancient, spherical-style keycaps were POM.

They're out there. I have -a- set. It's the only one I've ever seen though. But generally speaking, IBM doesn't make one of anything, so there's probably more out there. I'm guessing POM was an RPQ for a large industrial or Point of Sale customer given the rarity though.

How can you differentiate these different materials from one another?

[Magnusian]

I'm not sure why the legends are the colour they are. It could be that I see that shade as purple rather than black. While they may have been assembled in the same place, they have spent the past 25+ years in different parts of North America, the barn one came from Ontario 3 hours Northwest of Toronto, and the other that donated it's left ctrl key came from Georgia somewhere near Atlanta.

All I know is the legend colour matches perfectly between the two, and at least one spent up to 15 years in the barn I found it in.

I haven't had a chance to go back to that barn yet, hopefully sometime this week.

I've been doing the bolt mod on the barn keyboard, I managed to break off one of the stabilizer clips for the numpad Enter due to it being located right where one of the rivets I drilled out was. Not sure what to do about it, the clip isn't beyond gluing back on the barrel plate, but it does look like I'll have to modify it and grind the head of the bolt a bit so it doesn't interfere with the stabilizer. The key seems to work fine without the stabilizer, but it does like to rotate a bit. Boy am I glad that I only needed 58 bolts, nuts, and washers, instead of the 87 called for on the wiki, my fingers are killing me. I've tightened each bolt to the point where they are flush with the nuts, which is where most seemed to go without going beyond finger tight, I take it that adjusting the tension will be fun because these tiny bolts seem to enjoy either breaking or stripping without much effort.

I am so not looking forward to doing this to not only the other 1390120 but also one of my Unicomp Customizers that has been giving me some trouble with the spring assembly under the period key. The things we do for our keyboards...

[fohat.digs]

I don't know what wiki said that there are 80 bolts not 50. Personally, I have always considered "Sandy's Bolt Mod" to be the go-to instruction set.

That stabilizer on the numpad is a problem, I think that the wiki warns you about it, but it is easy to overlook. You will need to get an insert sleeve (one of the off-center ones) for the empty hole, and a new key with the appropriate leg. That would be any post-1989 key, as far as I know. Frankly, I have about decided that the stabilizer sleeves are preferable to the wires, anyway.

You may find at least one other hole/tab that cannot take a bolt because of something on the other side. I think it/they are near the middle.

I am not such a fan of the 120 because of no lights. You might consider transplanting that massive 120 back plate into the Unicomp, with everything else remaining.

And, yes, I too do not go more than finger-tight with the bolts. Remember, originally it was just melted plastic, so the plates were not torqued down at all.

[rootwyrm]

I'm honestly wondering where the hell that purple is coming from now.. I broke out a non-RPQ'd 3151 InfoWindow PCE to check, no purple there. (Attached a photo.) And this one is 18AUG87 with a known provenance - namely, it comes from a local steel mill. So I'm short on ideas here.

Correction: here are photos. 'Cause it's not liking the size of them.
http://rootwyrm.us.to/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/190.jpg
http://rootwyrm.us.to/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/191.jpg

[Magnusian]

So now that the keyboard is back together, I have noticed that several of the keys now have a kind of higher-pitched (though it varies even between keys that are next to each other) vibrating ping that sounds very off from normal. Should I tighten or loosen the nuts? Some of them I had to press rather hard because the barrel plate had started flattening back out even in the maybe hour it was separated from the back plate and I'm wondering if I may have over-tensioned them. Regardless, overall the keyboard feels much snapier than before, but the shift key still didn't want to work correctly and I swapped it with the one that was working properly on the other board.

Also, I'm running the it without the numpad stabilizers for now, the keys are acting fine and while I'd consider going with the post-89 design change, I want to keep this board as close to stock as possible and don't want to chance getting a newer key that doesn't match the legend colouration. I did the bolt mod because of the fact half of the rivets had popped off, if only one or two were broken I would've left it as-is. My other 120 I might part out to maintain this board and uprade the plate in one of my Unicomps (I am still extremely surprised now that I can compare them side-by-side how much heavier the older board is). I have the clip that popped off the barrel plate and I'll probably modify it and cement it back on or I'll swap in the other 120 barrel plate I have and be extra careful in regards to that particular rivet.

E: I just compared the sound to the other 120 and my two Unicomps and the pinging I'm hearing is actually the same for each board, down to the slight variation in pitch between keys, except that the Unicomps are significantly louder.

[fohat.digs]

I have thought about repairing those clips.

Hard to see a way to re-use or replace the original plastic clip.

When I get around to it, I think that I will fabricate a replacement by clipping a piece of a paper clip to epoxy down. I think that you could bend it just a bit, after the fact, if you needed to. After all, those clips are not critical to much except a horizontal sliding motion.

[Magnusian]

The entire clip came right off in one piece, it looks like it was actually placed on the barrel plate during assembly rather than being part of the same mould. From the look of it, I'd say it was something with two posts that were pressed into the barrel plate. I was thinking maybe abs cement would do the trick to get it back in place. I'm gonna have to cut part of it to fit around the head of the bolt, and I'll probably have to grind down the heads of two of the bolts so it doesn't interfere, but for now that clip and the two stabilizers are going into a ziplock in my desk's "rainy day" drawer.

[fohat.digs]

Oh, yeah, right. I have worked on several Model Fs since I was into a Model M. There are a lot of manufacturers that simply press-fit those little tabs. The old Apples, for instance, come out easily and go right back in.

I would not get into grinding, or custom fitting, just leave that bolt out altogether. One missing here or there is no big deal. Your original was probably missing a dozen of the plastic ones, right?

[KillerBee]

Those NON-LED thick plate models are best

At one point I owned 6 non LED Model M's -- 3 from 1985 (including the oldest model m in the world JUN 1985) and 3 from 1986

My only keyboard now -- November 1985 Bolt Modded

[fohat.digs]

What makes the 1390120 better than the 1390131?

That is my favorite, because it has the old, heavy-duty parts, but with LEDs.

[rootwyrm]

What makes the 1390120 better than the 1390131?

That is my favorite, because it has the old, heavy-duty parts, but with LEDs.

Nothing, really.. the plate only affects the feeling of the keyboard. That's all. There's no moving parts that directly contact the plate ever. Most plate failures are a result of microscopic fractures growing over many, many years of use. The thicker plates don't actually last any longer.

Also, most non-LEDs can be converted to LED simply by swapping the key assembly into an LED case with LED controller. I've done that with two US ASCII 3151's.