stash of 15x model f 122key: Auction Time is Here !

[poxeclipse]

#2  You specified shipping costs for Canada, Europe, Australia, and Africa.  Is the US "International"?

Of course.

[jdcarpe]

Dutch auction style? So everyone pays the lowest winning bid price? And you get one of the Model F's at random?

[fohat.digs]

The internal construction of the Model F and Model M are completely different, as you will see as soon as you open it up.

The Model M was not intended to be serviced, so with the bolt mod you are basically cutting it apart, and bolting your wreckage back together by an artificial method.

The Model F can be taken apart and re-assembled without damage, it just isn't easy. And it is harder on the big ones than the small ones.

That was the reason for my "Model F Bolt-Modding Guide" mentioned below, but, unlike the Model M, it is not necessary.

In fact, the more practice I get with the clamps, the easier the "sliding force fit" has become for me. The last one I did, I used the original tabs and added just 1 bolt (above the Backspace) where the plate flexes the most. I now recommend trying to do it the original way before drilling, and cutting the tabs only as a last resort.

Having said that, once the board is apart, you have a great deal of flexibility with the keys. If you do my near-ANSI mod, I believe that you end up with one barrel and spring left over.

If you decide to unveil the 3-4 "secret" keys, you will need a couple of extra barrels and springs. I have a few extras but don't ask me for more than a couple. Model Ms have different springs and all the barrels are integral in one sheet, so forget about M parts.

And, of course, you will need the keys and accessories (including the barrel "chimney" insert sleeves for stabilizer pegs) that you want to change out.

Maybe this will get somebody excited about making some Model M keycaps! I particularly want:

Windows
Mute
Pause

And you will realize that a full range of "media keys" would be great, now that you have those lonely orphaned keys just sitting there!

.
clickeykeyboards have springs & hammers for model f, $1 for 8 of them.

That is good to know!

Of course, for modding, you will need the barrels, too. The F-122s have the "buttress" type tabs on the barrel at about 4:00, so XT barrels (with separate alignment studs at 6:00) won't work. I can't remember which barrels are on the AT, but nobody is going to have spares from those, just laying around!

[poxeclipse]

Dutch auction style? So everyone pays the lowest winning bid price? And you get one of the Model F's at random?

Tell me more. I never did this. All I know about auctions is what I watched on Storage Wars.

[poxeclipse]

Question for all interested parties: Should I keep them as they are, wrapped in plastic, or remove the wrapping ?
Either way, I can take pictures and provide a description.
I'm tempted to open them, to try some typing, but I prefer to leave them as they are.

[Alessandro]

Keep them wrapped up, just try on the two that you are keeping.

[poxeclipse]

Thanks Alessandro.
The other stuff is related to the 3 ones with cracked corners. I intended to replace the case with cases from some old Model M 122. I can get a few of them. But, I also can keep them wrapped up, for all the loose parts are inside and can, probably, be glued, wet sanded and/or painted.
What is your advice ?
fohat, you did some repairs of this kind.

[Wopian]

Estimated auction (or whatever it is) price?

[jdcarpe]

Dutch auction style? So everyone pays the lowest winning bid price? And you get one of the Model F's at random?

Tell me more. I never did this. All I know about auctions is what I watched on Storage Wars.

Dutch auction works like this. Say you have 12 of them to sell. You take bids from people. Obviously, the highest bidder would win. And the next highest bidder would also win one, and so on to the 12th highest bidder. So now we set the winning bid price to the lowest winning bid, and everyone only pays that much. And everyone gets a randomly picked Model F 122, still wrapped in its packaging. Maybe you get a broken one, or maybe you get the most pristine one, who knows? It's pretty fair, I think.

[fohat.digs]

I repaired 3 broken F-122 cases. The plastic they used is harder but more brittle than Model M plastic, which is softer and more flexible, and that is the one thing that I prefer about the M.

My repairs have held up well, in a year and a half of knocking around the house, but I sold one of the boards and the repair seems to have released during shipping, even though I packed it pretty well.

Embedding a wire reinforcement in the gob of epoxy on the back seems like a good idea. Charcoal gray "Dupli-Color Fabric and Vinyl Coating" from the auto parts store is a great match for JB Weld.

There are some few very early Model M-122s that seem to have the same case shell, 1389160 is one part number. I have been looking for a cheap one, but I don't want to pay a lot of money just for the top case shell. The majority of M-122s, even with the square metal badge on the right, will not work.

[poxeclipse]

Yes, you need a Model M with the same legs. The old ones seem to have identical top case shell. I'll check again.
Thanks

[poxeclipse]

Oh the excitement in here while I slept! I take back wanting two of these, since it seems everyone wants one!
But I would still love one with the orange legends, cracked or not.

Look what happens when you touch a Model F. We play here with contagious stuff, maybe we should call CDC.
http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/ibm-model-m-collection-t5051.html

[AKIMbO]

Oh the excitement in here while I slept! I take back wanting two of these, since it seems everyone wants one!
But I would still love one with the orange legends, cracked or not.

Look what happens when you touch a Model F.
http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/ibm-model-m-collection-t5051.html

True story.  The 2 Ms in my closet haven't seen the light of day since I picked up my first F AT.  I don't even list them in my signature (that's how ashamed of them I am). 

[poxeclipse]

Oh the excitement in here while I slept! I take back wanting two of these, since it seems everyone wants one!
But I would still love one with the orange legends, cracked or not.

Look what happens when you touch a Model F.
http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/ibm-model-m-collection-t5051.html

True story.  The 2 Ms in my closet haven't seen the light of day since I picked up my first F AT.  I don't even list them in my signature (that's how ashamed of them I am). 

I don't even know what my SSK looks like. Didn't see it in months. fohat was right, there must be a Model F 122 virus around. I'm curious whether Topre is immune to this virus.
Capacitive BS was a very good technology, but too expensive for IBM. They built these Model F's with robots, in early '80s, then abandoned them. I don't know if other companies used it and/or continued to used it. Probably not, because everything was patented by IBM. That's what money does.

[Parak]

Yes, you need a Model M with the same legs. The old ones seem to have identical top case shell. I'll check again.
Thanks

It seems compatible, but it isn't. Also, very few Model M 122s have a "compatible" case - it has to be a very early kind of model (don't recall the number immediately). But the case needs modifications in order to fit on an F - a bunch of snipping and cutting at extra bits of plastic and such. djf (or was it kishy) did it, if memory serves me right.

[poxeclipse]

Yes, you need a Model M with the same legs. The old ones seem to have identical top case shell. I'll check again.
Thanks

It seems compatible, but it isn't. Also, very few Model M 122s have a "compatible" case - it has to be a very early kind of model (don't recall the number immediately). But the case needs modifications in order to fit on an F - a bunch of snipping and cutting at extra bits of plastic and such. djf (or was it kishy) did it, if memory serves me right.

It was kishi, he told me about that.

[Halverson]

I want to catch the virus!

[fohat.digs]

With all these dozens of "spare" keys floating around waiting to be re-assigned, somebody really needs to fabricate some interesting key caps.

[snoopy]

With all these dozens of "spare" keys floating around waiting to be re-assigned, somebody really needs to fabricate some interesting key caps.

This!!!!!!!

[Krogenar]

I've been fomenting for buckling spring keycaps for, what, several days now!

[poxeclipse]

With all these dozens of "spare" keys floating around waiting to be re-assigned, somebody really needs to fabricate some interesting key caps.

What about Unicomp ? Are they doing costum key caps ?

[fohat.digs]

Unicomp has a good variety of colors and choices for 1x keys.

The are weak on other keys, and since they do dye sub, they are only doing black on lighter. But they have solid black.

The spacebars will be the big stumbling block until somebody "cough" figures out a good mod.

[sleepy916]

This is more exciting than a CC auction.

[rootwyrm]

The spacebars will be the big stumbling block until somebody "cough" figures out a good mod.

I've figured out a few good mods in theory. The problem is that they're all cost prohibitive one way or another, and honestly, I won't even consider enabling someone to use an ABS spacebar. Sadly even SP told me they don't do PBT spacebars, which really sucks.

Really the issue comes down the fact that the stock stabilizer is not the greatest design even without the issue of being virtually impossible to replace without breaking unrepairable parts. Addressing the traditional IBM wobble as I call it isn't as hard as you'd think - just needs a larger diameter rod. No, really. Problem: you can't do that without reengineering the clips which means a new mold for the upper. Option B would be late generation dry-lube barrel slides at 1" in from each end but again, new mold for the upper.

[fohat.digs]

I was thinking about something much simpler and more ghetto such as fabricating wire clips and epoxying them to the metal front plate.

[AKIMbO]

I was thinking about something much simpler and more ghetto such as fabricating wire clips and epoxying them to the metal front plate.

That's what wcass did when he modded that F AT I used to own (and have since sold to rkinze).  He fashioned two metal "U" like objects and JB welded them to the metal plate just above the spacebar.  Then he clipped a metal space bar stabilizer wire into the U shaped metal.  It worked like a charm and I never had any problems with it.  IIRC, he used a Model M type spacebar with stabilizer wire on that F AT.

[rknize]

Oh.. so thats what those are all about.

[mkawa]

this is all fantastic, but i want to make a few points:

1) I think you're underestimating the cost of shipping. i'd prefer you put that 10% you want to donate to the forum into covering your shipping costs . If you don't need to cover shipping costs, then pay yourself back for the unit you're donating to Soarer (which, by the way, is a fantastic idea!)

2) Sell them to whoever you want for however much you want! Please though, use the classifieds forum, as samwisekoi mentioned.

3) Hmm, I wonder if it's a good time to build some soarer adapter kits?

4) if it's not already obvious, fohat.digs is THE expert on these boards, by several miles. if he's willing to take on the work, i highly suggest gently asking him for help re: repairs, modifications, etc.

5) unicomp will have a wider range of keys available real soon now. i'm not exactly sure when, but as i've said elsewhere, i've seen samples, and they are _fantastic_ looking.

[dorkvader]

fohat, what is the oldest you found ? I got one here from 30 May 1984.

Here's the card on mine. Fohat and I got our old ones from the same eBay seller.

Date: 31 Jan 1984,
S/N: 00363

Webwit has an industrial M with a lower SN, and I think there was a GH'er that also had a low SN model M, so I sort-of want to keep this one unmodded and use another as an ANSI.

Bytheway about the "ISO-esque" layout: The hardest thing about it for me is that Lshift. Enter is no problem.
I believe the F13-F24 are detected in Aqua keytest properly.
I need to remap mine, though. I have no pipe/slash key and esc is in a no-fun place (tenkey)

They are about 8.5 lbs and something like 22 inches wide. It's my daily driver and the best KB I own. The KMAC (using greens ofcourse) comes close, but those cherry stabilizers ruin the spacebar I have on it. I really want to get a symbolics KB to try hall-effect linears though.

About shipping, if it's a 10-lb package, and you have a box that's 24" by 12" by 3" (Just a sample guess. It's the same size as a large flat-rate gameboard box) it'll cost $75 or so to mail to AUS
http://ircalc.usps.com/MailServices.aspx?country=10013&m=7&p=10&o=0&l=24&w=12&h=3&g=0&r=True

about $48 to Canada
http://ircalc.usps.com/MailServices.aspx?country=10054&m=7&p=10&o=0&l=24&w=12&h=3&g=0&r=True

Something like $57 to Germany
http://ircalc.usps.com/MailServices.aspx?country=10137&m=7&p=10&o=0&l=24&w=12&h=3&g=0&r=True

[rowdy]

I love the way they used to put a slash thru the zeros back then

[rootwyrm]

I was thinking about something much simpler and more ghetto such as fabricating wire clips and epoxying them to the metal front plate.

Well of course you would. You don't have a perfectionism problem like I do. I'm all "... ugh, no, I'll KNOW what's underneath and it will TAINT MY SOUL knowing I did that to an F or an M." I mean, honestly, the absolute best fix? Move the stabilizer mountpoints inward a bit more, slightly larger wire, done.

Webwit has an industrial M with a lower SN, and I think there was a GH'er that also had a low SN model M, so I sort-of want to keep this one unmodded and use another as an ANSI.

F's and M's are on two different serial number tracks, but it's actually not 363rd - there's always a reserved block of low SNs, for any number of reasons. (IBM internal use, prototyping, etcetera - it's kinda like "this page intentionally left blank.") Problem is I've never observed any level of consistency in it. So that could be anywhere from the 353rd to the 63rd ever made. It's low to be sure - just a question of how low.

M serial numbers are semi-sequential due to the multiple production lines. And it gets really, really confusing there because lines sometimes got batches and sometimes got prefixed batches. (e.g. 71712345 PltNo L1-MF might actually be 12345, 2345, 7171, or 2! Someday I will find the time to set up a way to actually freaking build a database of this stuff. And not just because I may have Lexmark M13 #37.)

[fohat.digs]

mkawa, thanks for volunteering me! < sarcasm >

First, let me say that I am only an expert on this because I have done it a few times. And I only did it a few times because I just really really wanted one of these things, and it took buying several broken and incomplete ones, over quite some time, until I was happy. Now that I have my fill, a daily driver and 2 backups, I am done. The last one I got, in the sale where Dorkvader got his, was the nicest by far, but I suspect that this current lot is quite a bit better. I am jealous that all these prime specimens have just fallen into your laps. But I can't worry about sour grapes.

Although this is a "hobby" my time and money are pretty limited right now. I have several projects of my own, sitting on my work table right now, which I have let languish for weeks.

Merely receiving a keyboard, unpacking it, taking it apart, cleaning, re-assembling, re-packaging it, and taking it to the Post Office represents at least a couple of hours and several miles of gas money, before any actual "work" is done. So I would have to look at $40-50 + shipping as a minimum fee, depending on what needs to be done. And, depending on my schedule, I would need a few days turnaround, minimum.

There are "trade" options that I would entertain, such as paying for a Teensy setup with another Teensy given to me, or some cool keycaps (those metal ones are looking awesome, and colorful ones from Unicomp) but I have less interest in Cherry specialties since I currently only own 1 Cherry board (although I am looking for a pretty colored TKL with browns or reds for my daughter, and the CC&C and Red Alert schemes are very appealing). I could also use a decent working motherboard that used an AM2 cpu and DDR2 memory.

A constant irritation is finding the keys to replace the originals after the spring swap. Besides the 1x keys that need to show different legends or tops (eg Control or Tab), there are usually somewhere between 2-5 additional "different size/shape" keys (Enter being the #1 requirement) that need to be found. All except the spacebar can be ordered from Unicomp, but the price adds up quickly.

I live near Atlanta, Georgia, and a USPS Priority Mail flat rate game board box is only $17 domestic, UPS and Fedex about the same, but recently seems to have jumped from $58 to $78 international. I am not sure how to deal with this, but I have no control over it.

As much as I like helping people, I have to think about a dozen projects simultaneously with some trepidation. Working on 3 keyboards over the course of a couple of weeks is far less intimidating, and combined ordering Teensy and Unicomp parts would not be too bad.

[AKIMbO]

^I'd be willing to work on/mod/refurb some of these F-122 boards for Geekhackers as well.  That is, if fohat.digs ends up turning some of the work down.

[alaricljs]

fohat, I'm pretty sure mkawa was referring to textual assistance... you know, guidance, instructions, that sort of thing.

[fohat.digs]

fohat, I'm pretty sure mkawa was referring to textual assistance... you know, guidance, instructions, that sort of thing.

OK, whatever. I can take on some tool work if I need too, as long as it is not an avalanche.

I tried to make my guide fairly complete. If you aren't moving keys, a thorough cleaning will take some time, but is technically trivial.

The most tedious part is making a new mat, if you need one, but if these have been stored well, maybe their mats will be in good shape. Count yourself lucky if you get a good one.

Otherwise: BE CAREFUL WITH THAT SPACEBAR!

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37753.msg722184#msg722184

[mkawa]

mkawa, thanks for volunteering me! < sarcasm >

  sorry, i'm not good at keeping secrets!

anyway, i mostly meant instruction on how to DIY one's way around these boards. there doesn't seem to be any question that you're the foremost expert on the f-122s, and we're quite overjoyed to have you around, given this find (and otherwise!)

[poxeclipse]

The keyboard I'm using now has an internal converter.
I made today another one, external, to use it with other keyboards. I forgot to take pictures during this work, but I have the final product.
It allows to keep the keyboards intact, without any modification.
It was hard to find screws for the socket, but I found them in an old TV antenna, bolts and nuts. The head of the bolt should be small, so the keyboard cable plug will fit in.

[fohat.digs]

Oh yeah, that is a beauty.

Much nicer than mine, although I did find the female connector that actually screws into the DIN cable from the board!

[dorkvader]

Bytheway, I found the prefect enclosure for those adapters. I made two (one PS2) a while ago and still need to make a post about them.

Oh yeah, that is a beauty.

Much nicer than mine, although I did find the female connector that actually screws into the DIN cable from the board!

I found one for mine as well, but it was more expensive (Like $6 for just the connector) but it came with a single screw on ring to attach it to the enclosure panel.

[poxeclipse]

Oh yeah, that is a beauty.

Much nicer than mine, although I did find the female connector that actually screws into the DIN cable from the board!

The box was $1.99 and the socket $2.00. I had a USB-miniB cable from a Nokia cell phone. I made it because I don't want to open the keyboards.
And is cheaper, being used with any F-122 keyboard. I didn't test it with an F AT, yet.

[RougeR]

can i make a suggestion? ship half of these to a deskthority member and split the auction, its hard to find these in the EU and it would save a lot on shipping. i will buy one and im sure fossala will. Thats two gone straight away.

[iri]

and surely i will

[poxeclipse]

The major problem is the shipping cost. From Toronto to UK is $85 by boat, which takes 3-6 weeks, and $142 by Xpresspost, which should take 4-12 business days. To Soarer, I sent one by Xpresspost, will see how long it takes. What I want is to find a way to make it fair for all GH members, regardless of location.
Suggestions are appreciated, as usual.

[Halverson]

Possibly a lottery for anyone who doesn't already own one and would like one?

[poxeclipse]

Now, to make it clear. It will be one at a time, not a random selection. So, the broken ones will be dealt with separately.

[RougeR]

how much would it be to ship half of them to the UK? in one go

[iri]

The major problem is the shipping cost. From Toronto to UK is $85 by boat, which takes 3-6 weeks, and $142 by Xpresspost, which should take 4-12 business days

and even more to russia. i don't care.

[rowdy]

Possibly a lottery for anyone who doesn't already own one and would like one?

The major problem is the shipping cost. From Toronto to UK is $85 by boat, which takes 3-6 weeks, and $142 by Xpresspost, which should take 4-12 business days

and even more to russia. i don't care.

[poxeclipse]

how much would it be to ship half of them to the UK? in one go

You can find out, each has 11lb. But, is UK half of the world ?

[Soarer]

Christ, I had no idea that Canada Post was so expensive