Cherry Browns or Clears?

[Spokoman]

I know, I know... another preference question. I think the browns are perfect for me: gaming/typing. But I've read some forum posts that people swear by clears and browns feel like there's some dirt in there while you press.

Any comments on this?

[CPTBadAss]

I feel like browns are reds with a touch of a bump in it. The bump isn't enough for me to feel it so half the time I wonder if the switches are tactile or linear and it messes with me. And I dislike the lightness in both.

I also tried ergo-clears, but again they felt like slightly better browns and I didn't like them. Plus they were sticky and the actuation would be interrupted or get caught.

Stock clears feel incredible to me. A little heavier than blues, with a HUGE bump that is unmistakable. Very pleasurable to type on. And quiet too.

[boost]

Browns have lighter springs and lighter tactile
Clears have heavier springs and a more noticeable tactile bump

Lots of people go the "ergo-clears" route which is light springs and clear stems.



IMO Clears > Browns

[Spokoman]

As usual very helpful posts

So which clears are these: http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=296 ??
It doesn't state in the details.

[Kmynis]

Regular clears, not the ergo ones. Ergo ones are a ghetto thing and not available in shops.

[CPTBadAss]

Right. Ergo-clears are a mod that you have to do yourself. Those would be stock Clears on that Ducky.

[nsrexler]

I would definitely recommend Clears if you tend to be a heavy typist.
If you're looking into getting a board with Clears, I would recommend you get a set of PBT keycaps for it; in my opinion, the harder plastic makes the tactile bump much more noticeable.
I also think that Clears feel better with O-rings, but that's just my personal preference.

[davkol]

(this post may contain strong opinions, and is based on personal observations, you've been warned)

But I've read some forum posts that people swear by clears and browns feel like there's some dirt in there while you press.

Any comments on this?

Exactly. Browns are a jack of all trades, but master of none. I like both reds and clears, and browns are a horrible mixture of both. They aren't smooth like reds, nor tactile like clears... rather gritty, loud (!) something. However, I can imagine browns actually may feel great when lubed, as someone has suggested around here.

[keymaster]

Now that I have both an ergo-clear and a brown board, I can say that stock clears are better than browns in two ways: tactility and sound. I tried stock clears at the Chicago meet-up and they're a little heavier than browns. Stock clears or ergo-clears are both better than browns, imo.

Coolermaster will have some keyboards with stock clears in at least a few months.

[daerid]

I'm gonna try clears with O-rings on my ErgoDox... probably as close to Topre as I can get with a Cherry Switch.

[keymaster]

I'm gonna try clears with O-rings on my ErgoDox... probably as close to Topre as I can get with a Cherry Switch.

I tried putting o-rings on the ergo-clear board but it takes away the pronounced tactility and sound from it. With the o-rings, the bottoming out is too soft and the sound is changed a bit. I like the o-rings on browns, though. Tell us how you like it

[daerid]

I will. I'm thinking of getting the really light ones, just enough to dampen the sharp impact, but not enough to shorten the down stroke.

[Spokoman]

(this post may contain strong opinions, and is based on personal observations, you've been warned)

I consider myself warned.

[Internetlad]

from the test board where I had both I thought the clears were FAR superior.

Basically it comes down to the keypress. If you like heavy boards (buckling springs, blacks) you'll prefer the clear. If you like light boards (reds, rubber domes) you'll like browns.

[kwago]

Coolermaster will have some keyboards with stock clears in at least a few months.

whuaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?

[Jagriff]

I can't wait to try out clears and ergo-clears. Browns are my favorite switch out of blue, black, and green, so I can only hope that clears are even nicer.

[Internetlad]

whuaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=39814.0

[jabar]

I would be using my Ergo-Clear board if not for a bused Esc switch that requires a complete desolder.

However I have been using my Max X8 backlit MX Brown keyboard and am enjoying it quite a bit.

[Hour]

Browns are great! 

[Dubsgalore]

I have both! i prefer Clears

personally i tend to like heavier switches, so try to try both

[Larken]

ergo-clears > browns > clears. (typing)

browns > ergo-clears > clears (gaming)

if I could only pick one switch for both typing and gaming, I'll probably stick with browns.

I have a preference for light switches. clears are way too heavy for my tastes.

[TranscendingLogic]

Definitely prefer browns for a great typing experience. Clears are just too heavy and the bigger bump doesn't add anything.

[babyhands]

If it means anything, I have owned blue, red, brown, also used a good amount of black, I like brown the best. I like lighter switches, and i think i am too lazy to make an ergo clear board haha

[VesperSAINT]

I would definitely recommend Clears if you tend to be a heavy typist.
If you're looking into getting a board with Clears, I would recommend you get a set of PBT keycaps for it; in my opinion, the harder plastic makes the tactile bump much more noticeable.
I also think that Clears feel better with O-rings, but that's just my personal preference.

I taught you well But I don't like o-rings in my Clears. Clears are so freaking awesome!

I just don't really like browns; browns feel like broken reds imo. You'll hear this a million times but ergo-clears are just what browns should've been. I'm about to mod a keyboard into ergo-clears within the next couple days but I've installed some ergo-clears onto a experiment board to see how they felt and it feels pretty damn good (lubed with krytox). I think I like Clears better but I won't decide fully until I've tried a keyboard with all ergo-clears.

[The_Beast]

Lubed ergo-clears > lubed browns > clears > browns

IMO

[noisyturtle]

Ergo-clears are truly the king of MX land. Lubed and stickered just makes them even more of a dream.
Ergo-clears > Reds > Browns > Clears > Pandas
I've grown so accustomed to playing certain game genres with reds I have to keep one on my desk for switching out boards.

[VesperSAINT]

Ergo-clears are truly the king of MX land. Lubed and stickered just makes them even more of a dream.
Ergo-clears > Reds > Browns > Clears > Pandas
I've grown so accustomed to playing certain game genres with reds I have to keep one on my desk for switching out boards.

I can actually empathize with this because I'm so used to playing FPS games and DOTA with Cherry MX Reds that it doesn't feel the same without them :\ Because of this, I usually use my Reds whenever I play any games, which means I always have at least 2 keyboards connected at all times (Reds and my favorite switch at the time). Clears aren't too bad for gaming either but then again Clears are awesome all the time

[karazi]

How come I haven't seen clears for sale anywhere?  I'd be interested in buying a keyboard with clears already on it, or just the switches to install them on an old chattering v1 Rosewill with blues, but can't seem to find them anywhere.  Surprised they are not on more boards given the growing fanfare.

[VesperSAINT]

How come I haven't seen clears for sale anywhere?  I'd be interested in buying a keyboard with clears already on it, or just the switches to install them on an old chattering v1 Rosewill with blues, but can't seem to find them anywhere.  Surprised they are not on more boards given the growing fanfare.

 https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=296

You're welcome. There is also the Decks too.

[Spokoman]

I ordered the Ducky clears. Should come tomorrow according to fedex

I was not able to compare it to browns. At micro center I tried the Blues. It felt aweome, tho I felt it was a bit too light. I'll post my feedback tomorrow.

Noob question, are the ergo-clears just clears with o-rings?

[CPTBadAss]

I ordered the Ducky clears. Should come tomorrow according to fedex

I was not able to compare it to browns. At micro center I tried the Blues. It felt aweome, tho I felt it was a bit too light. I'll post my feedback tomorrow.

Noob question, are the ergo-clears just clears with o-rings?

Ergo clears are clears with brown/blue/red springs. O-rings just reduce the travel and soften the landing.

[keymaster]

I ordered the Ducky clears. Should come tomorrow according to fedex

I was not able to compare it to browns. At micro center I tried the Blues. It felt aweome, tho I felt it was a bit too light. I'll post my feedback tomorrow.

Noob question, are the ergo-clears just clears with o-rings?

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX_Ergo_Clear

The Ergo Clear switch is a Cherry MX switch with a slider from a clear switch and a light-weight spring from a brown, red or blue switch.

[Spokoman]

Gotcha, so it's custom made. IF I ask you if it's difficult t do you'll say it's EZ, but what about a person who's never done that before? 
Of course, before I do anything I'm gonna try the clears just out of the box. Maybe they're what I want? Tho in this thread people tend to say browns are better for gaming. We shall see 

[CPTBadAss]

Remember, you're typing on this board, not people in this thread. If you like X switch for gaming, go for it. I personally don't mind blues when I play games. I play SC2 with blues. But people swear up and down that its linear switches for gaming. =shrugs=  It's ALL about personal preference.

[Spokoman]

Remember, you're typing on this board, not people in this thread. If you like X switch for gaming, go for it. I personally don't mind blues when I play games. I play SC2 with blues. But people swear up and down that its linear switches for gaming. =shrugs=  It's ALL about personal preference.

I hear you. I assume NA server. What league? I'm looking to do some 2v2 

[Internetlad]

It's all personal preference. People have said that blacks are an odd choice for gaming but I very much like them. The only gripe I have is that in a game like ARMA where you're constantly holding down the "run" key (for like an hour, ugh") your finger can get really tired.

[VesperSAINT]

I ordered the Ducky clears. Should come tomorrow according to fedex

I was not able to compare it to browns. At micro center I tried the Blues. It felt aweome, tho I felt it was a bit too light. I'll post my feedback tomorrow.

Noob question, are the ergo-clears just clears with o-rings?

OO! You're going to love that Ducky Clears, trust me

If you felt the blues were awesome but too light, you are going to want to find a Cherry MX Green keyboard or at least a ghetto Green because that's pretty much just Blues with stiffer springs.

Ergo-clears are a modded switch where one take a Clear stem and replaces the stiffer spring inside with a lighter spring from a Cherry MX Blue, Brown, or Red. It's pretty much a Brown with a more pronounced bump.

Remember, you're typing on this board, not people in this thread. If you like X switch for gaming, go for it. I personally don't mind blues when I play games. I play SC2 with blues. But people swear up and down that its linear switches for gaming. =shrugs=  It's ALL about personal preference.

It's all personal preference. People have said that blacks are an odd choice for gaming but I very much like them. The only gripe I have is that in a game like ARMA where you're constantly holding down the "run" key (for like an hour, ugh") your finger can get really tired.

Yeh, I agree with you guys. It ultimate comes down to what do you enjoy the most. Some people tend to get so focused on what's the best performing blah blah but how much can a specific switch really improve one's gameplay? Heck, SlayerSBoxeR used blues for the longest time too. However, in the long periods of holding down the keys during gaming sessions, blacks did somewhat fatigue my fingers, which is why I eventually ended up selling my them (I primarily used them for gaming) when I got my Reds because of the fatigue issue with long button presses.

[Macsmasher]

I know, I know... another preference question. I think the browns are perfect for me: gaming/typing. But I've read some forum posts that people swear by clears and browns feel like there's some dirt in there while you press.

Any comments on this?

For you, this question can never be answered by others because it's personal preference. It's like asking on a forum what color of car you should buy.

But I can give you a quantifiable opinion on the dirty (i.e. gritty) feel of the switch. That's the Cherry switches. The only reason it's more obvious on browns is because of their light tactility and actuation force. The grittiness is still there in the heavier, more tactile switches. You just don't notice it as much.

I moved to Topre switches about five months ago. Just today, I pulled out my Dos Ultimate with browns. Honestly, I was shocked at how gritty the switches felt. It didn't bother me as much before moving to Topre switches because I had nothing better to which to compare it. But going from Topre back to Cherry browns was another story. The grittiness was glaring and it was miserable to use.

To use another example to make my point; remember how you were able to work on your two year old computer? Sure, it wasn't cutting edge and you knew it was getting slow by current standards. But, you got your work done and didn't give it much thought. Then you get your new computer and it's lightening fast. You work on that for a week or two, then go back to your old system. It's absolutely miserable to work on and you ask yourself how you ever got anything done. Going from Topre back to Cherry is exactly like that.

For years I've been a monitor snob, insisting on high res IPS panels. I guess I'm now also a Topre snob. 

[Internetlad]

Surprised they are not on more boards given the growing fanfare.

CM is coming out with clears on one of their mech boards.

[ping111]

When the clears hit the market for less than 2C shipped, I'm gonna have to get me one, but for now, I'm actually extremely happy with my Browns.  I don't know what you guys are talking about grittiness - I think the bump is extremely pleasant and gives me this wonderful light feeling in my fingers, which makes me feel like I can type even faster.  If you guys wanna slam your keys, your problem, but I think the super-duper bump I get in my Browns is enough to keep my fingers gracefully floating.

[davkol]

It's like asking on a forum what color of car you should buy.

Bad Car Analogies (TM)

I don't know what you guys are talking about grittiness - I think the bump is extremely pleasant and gives me this wonderful light feeling in my fingers, which makes me feel like I can type even faster.  If you guys wanna slam your keys, your problem, but I think the super-duper bump I get in my Browns is enough to keep my fingers gracefully floating.

When I slam them, there's no tactility. When I don't slam them, they feel like sandpaper.

[VesperSAINT]

It's like asking on a forum what color of car you should buy.

Bad Car Analogies (TM)

I don't know what you guys are talking about grittiness - I think the bump is extremely pleasant and gives me this wonderful light feeling in my fingers, which makes me feel like I can type even faster.  If you guys wanna slam your keys, your problem, but I think the super-duper bump I get in my Browns is enough to keep my fingers gracefully floating.

When I slam them, there's no tactility. When I don't slam them, they feel like sandpaper.

Lol.

[Spokoman]

got the clears today

Typing on the now. I have to say the backlit is jawdropping. I love it. The keyboard is very sturdy. My fingers enjoy it.  Now as far as the Clears go.... idk. I might be a victim of getting the Reds at work a week before. The reds felt too soft, but I got used to them and really like them now. Today when I opened the Ducky Shine 2 with clears they felt a bit too hard. The question now is will I get used to it or are browns a better fit for me. And this is just typing now. If I have some time today I'm gonna hop on to SC2 and try gaming.

The typing does sound really sexy tho. My wife if a very fast typist. I enjoyed listening to her typing. Tho, that's the last time she touched my keyboard

[VesperSAINT]

got the clears today

Typing on the now. I have to say the backlit is jawdropping. I love it. The keyboard is very sturdy. My fingers enjoy it.  Now as far as the Clears go.... idk. I might be a victim of getting the Reds at work a week before. The reds felt too soft, but I got used to them and really like them now. Today when I opened the Ducky Shine 2 with clears they felt a bit too hard. The question now is will I get used to it or are browns a better fit for me. And this is just typing now. If I have some time today I'm gonna hop on to SC2 and try gaming.

The typing does sound really sexy tho. My wife if a very fast typist. I enjoyed listening to her typing. Tho, that's the last time she touched my keyboard

I think most stiffer switches require a short break-in period. Also, you think they sound awesome now but wait until you throw on a set of PBT keycaps. It makes the experience multiple folds better. Take my word for it. Not only will it feel better but it'll sound better. I might make a sound record later tonight but you can always check my ****ty youtube video. The sound is muffled by my Razer Goliathus underneith but it still sounds better than stock ABS. You'll also enjoy Clears for gaming

[Leslieann]

As Davkol said, brown is a jack of all trades, master of none, which is why they are a great starter. They have a common spring and a hint of tactility (some will say a gritty feel). From there you can decide if you want stiffer springs, and more or less tactility.

Personally, I like soft springs, this means I need a red/blue/brown spring.
I also want the tactility of blue or clear, the problem with clear is the spring is too stiff and you can't really buy a keyboard with them easily. The problem with blue is the design does not lend itself well to gaming. This is especially true if you double tap, something blue is probably the worst switch you can possibly use. As such, Ergo Clears (light spring with clear stem) works great for me but means buying a keyboard and a set of switches to part out.


I also tend to like short throw, which no switch actually offers except Jailhouse Blues, which are a blue switch, with a wire wrapped around the stem to hold it extended. This gives the feel of a short throw Ergo Clear, and while a hassle to make (you have to disassemble, wrap the stems, and cut springs to tune the stiffness), they can be made from a normal blue switch without replacing or buying anything except a bit of wire from Wally World for $2.

Start with browns then decide where you want to go.

[yester64]

ergo-clears > browns > clears. (typing)

browns > ergo-clears > clears (gaming)

if I could only pick one switch for both typing and gaming, I'll probably stick with browns.

I have a preference for light switches. clears are way too heavy for my tastes.

I just like to add that i actually wasn't able to see any clear switches anywhere in a keyboard. Ok, there are very few but you really need to search.
I am playing with the idea of buying a Das Keyboard with browns. Right now i have reds but i think these switches are not for me. Typing can be challenging for me on it.
Wouldn't a more forceful switch better for avoiding accidental pressing of a switch? I am just curious. Sadly i can not spend so much money to try every possible switch and i don't think Fry's has any of these switches. They do have red, black and browns. My point is i can not compare really (i would like too).
I do know the browns and i think in my case these were the best switches. Sadly i bought a blue switch keyboard and i figured that i hate the click.
Anyway. I do like a well balanced keyboard that i can use for gaming and typing. But my gaming needs have changed too. I don't play much 1st person shooters anymore.

[davkol]

I just like to add that i actually wasn't able to see any clear switches anywhere in a keyboard. Ok, there are very few but you really need to search.

Although situation is similar to reds few years ago or reds, Cherry G80-3000LQCDE is quite common at least in Germany.

Wouldn't a more forceful switch better for avoiding accidental pressing of a switch?

If you accidentally press keys, you should fix your typing technique, not keyboard. BTW stiffer switch may cause an opposite problem that you don't apply enough force to actuate the switch when pressing it.

[Macsmasher]

ergo-clears > browns > clears. (typing)

browns > ergo-clears > clears (gaming)

if I could only pick one switch for both typing and gaming, I'll probably stick with browns.

I have a preference for light switches. clears are way too heavy for my tastes.

Frustrated? Try Topre switches. It's expensive, but worth it.
I just like to add that i actually wasn't able to see any clear switches anywhere in a keyboard. Ok, there are very few but you really need to search.
I am playing with the idea of buying a Das Keyboard with browns. Right now i have reds but i think these switches are not for me. Typing can be challenging for me on it.
Wouldn't a more forceful switch better for avoiding accidental pressing of a switch? I am just curious. Sadly i can not spend so much money to try every possible switch and i don't think Fry's has any of these switches. They do have red, black and browns. My point is i can not compare really (i would like too).
I do know the browns and i think in my case these were the best switches. Sadly i bought a blue switch keyboard and i figured that i hate the click.
Anyway. I do like a well balanced keyboard that i can use for gaming and typing. But my gaming needs have changed too. I don't play much 1st person shooters anymore.

[Larken]

ergo-clears > browns > clears. (typing)

browns > ergo-clears > clears (gaming)

if I could only pick one switch for both typing and gaming, I'll probably stick with browns.

I have a preference for light switches. clears are way too heavy for my tastes.

I just like to add that i actually wasn't able to see any clear switches anywhere in a keyboard. Ok, there are very few but you really need to search.
I am playing with the idea of buying a Das Keyboard with browns. Right now i have reds but i think these switches are not for me. Typing can be challenging for me on it.
Wouldn't a more forceful switch better for avoiding accidental pressing of a switch? I am just curious. Sadly i can not spend so much money to try every possible switch and i don't think Fry's has any of these switches. They do have red, black and browns. My point is i can not compare really (i would like too).
I do know the browns and i think in my case these were the best switches. Sadly i bought a blue switch keyboard and i figured that i hate the click.
Anyway. I do like a well balanced keyboard that i can use for gaming and typing. But my gaming needs have changed too. I don't play much 1st person shooters anymore.

Its actually about acclimatization. I used to be able to switch from browns to reds and back on a daily basis (home <-> office rotation) without much problem at all. Once I gotten used to ergoclears, I actually found myself hitting the keys too hard on browns, and had crazy typos on the reds, despite not having such problems in the past.

Ergo-clears are my goto switch at the moment, and is a downright favorite. But other the fact that clears are hard to source in the first place, there's other factors such the difficulty and labor involved in modding such switches, and lubing, which is simply not accessible for casual users (donor boards for switches, light springs, lube etc.) It's worth it but I understand why most people aren't interested in putting that much work into it.

Given the constraints of a production board, browns would be what I recommend to anyone, except if they specifically like the audible click of blues. An all round silent switch. I haven't had experience with topre switches before, so I won't comment on that.

If you're thinking about getting a DAS, you might want to get one from the Ultimate line instead of the professional series. Our resident geekhackers seemed to have surmised that the Professional line is being manufactured by someone other than costar, and amazon reviews seem to concur in a drop in production quality. AFAIK the Ultimate versions are still Costar made.

Wouldn't a more forceful switch better for avoiding accidental pressing of a switch?

If you accidentally press keys, you should fix your typing technique, not keyboard. BTW stiffer switch may cause an opposite problem that you don't apply enough force to actuate the switch when pressing it.

davkol is spot on with respect to this. Having used light switches for a long time, I tried buckling springs for a while and I had that problem - I simply couldn't apply enough force on certain keys without consciously trying to, as my fingers are already trained to not bottom out and only applying just enough force. That really put a damper in my typing speed for a while. The inverse is of course applicable.

But if you're simply having the problem of having accidental keypresses while hovering your fingers over the homerow or wasd, you either need to let your fingers get used to it, or opt for a heavier switch.

[VesperSAINT]

davkol is spot on with respect to this. Having used light switches for a long time, I tried buckling springs for a while and I had that problem - I simply couldn't apply enough force on certain keys without consciously trying to, as my fingers are already trained to not bottom out and only applying just enough force. That really put a damper in my typing speed for a while. The inverse is of course applicable.

But if you're simply having the problem of having accidental keypresses while hovering your fingers over the homerow or wasd, you either need to let your fingers get used to it, or opt for a heavier switch.

I can heavily empathize with this point right now. I was fortunate enough to have experienced the Ducky DK9008G2 Pro Limited Edition w/ Cherry MX Greens and learned that this is, IMO, the best feeling switch (along with Clears). However, I was also unfortunate enough to also learn that the stiffness of the Cherry MX Greens, even though this was the reason it felt so damn good, was the cause of frequent typos, which was caused by my ring and pinky finger. As amazing as it felt, the green switch was just too stiff for my ring and pinky fingers and I would have to consciously put effort into my typing to get 100% performance. Before I knew it, I was eventually using the other switches for daily drivers and only coming back to the Greens every now and then for fun. Yes, this can be overcome with practice and time but in most cases you'll probably just end up moving back to the switches that balance out between fun, comfort, and performance.

To sum up, stiff switches such as Green or Clear (lighter than Greens), and maybe even Black, can be an obstacle when considering accuracy, speed and efficiency in typing because of multiple factors such as force required by weaker fingers (ring and pinky), or being used to lighter switches in general. However, this can always be overcome with practice and time, if one is willing to invest in the effort. One just needs to evaluate what they value most in their keyboard; is performance most important or the fun-factor/feel?