Author Topic: What keyboard things will you never 'get'?  (Read 47737 times)

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Offline unicomp_uc

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Re: What keyboard things will you never 'get'?
« Reply #350 on: Thu, 17 October 2013, 17:11:39 »
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Offline Laser

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Re: What keyboard things will you never 'get'?
« Reply #351 on: Thu, 17 October 2013, 17:15:23 »
I don't have a click clack, probably wont' buy one. But,

I think click clacks are a symptom of a keyboard lover. Let me explain: if one loves the typing more than the content of what he types, i.e. if the keyboard is, at least sometimes, more important than the text typed every day on the computer - in the same way one types at a touch-typing contest (when you don't care about the text, you care about your speed and accuracy, and the feel of the keys and so on) - then, the body of the letter is more important than the "spirit" of the letter. Metaphorically, you love the corpse of the letter. The pulsional side. BTW, it's not small potato that the great "Typing of the dead" game had exactly that name  :-\  :-X So the click clack is the normal conclusion, the synthetic image for the aspect of this dead body of the letter. :blank:

:D
« Last Edit: Thu, 17 October 2013, 17:21:22 by Laser »

Offline Linkbane

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Re: What keyboard things will you never 'get'?
« Reply #352 on: Thu, 17 October 2013, 17:21:44 »
Your entire point was that they are investments, so when you say that you aren't, good job going straight back on what you said.
By the way, you can sell a "useless piece of plastic" at the exact same price that you bought it at. One shaped like a keycap is the exact same. Boom, you're wrong.

A poor investment is still an investment. Or have they changed the definition of investment entirely?

You completely failed to see my comparison, which indicates you can't even comprehend simple analogies. Did they not teach you about them in 3rd grade?

You're stubbornness is not going to make you many friends here. There are many other people with similar viewpoints to mine, and the only reason why you haven't heard them complaining is because it's not worth the time, you will never change your mind...

Might I add that you would make a great politician. They're heads are so far up there asses they can't even balance the budget...

That you have people to back up your claims doesn't make you any more correct. All you do is insult and say why you should be right, without saying why I am incorrect.
You're absolutely out of arguments, pathetic to such a point that all that you're able to do is talk tough. Sure I won't make friends, but they way in which you act like an exceeding asshat to everyone who disagrees with your fanboyism is much more of a turn off to anyone.
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Offline Michael

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Re: What keyboard things will you never 'get'?
« Reply #353 on: Thu, 17 October 2013, 17:23:34 »
you act like an exceeding asshat to everyone who disagrees with you


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Offline angelic_sedition

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Re: What keyboard things will you never 'get'?
« Reply #354 on: Thu, 17 October 2013, 17:25:07 »

That isn't portable anyway—small reality check...

I type in Czech a lot. We have 14 extra letters (latin letters with diacritic marks, actually... but it's not like it makes a huge difference, dead keys are kinda annoying). You know, size matters. Add proper quotes and other typographic symbols. Alright, let's add ANSI symbols used in system administration and software development, that's about 14 symbols. Now, what about embedded navigation cluster? Another 10 keys. How do you cram all of this on ~30 keys avoiding stuff like Emacs pinkies?

Small reality check—it definitely is portable. Just because you're ignorant about this doesn't mean you can tell me that what I've been doing almost daily is impossible (this isn't some hypothetical I randomly came up with).  :p  Besides that I wasn't just talking about the home row (which I use primarily for navigation; I don't cram everything there if that's what you were getting at), and I never mentioned other typographic symbols (total strawman basically). But yeah, I can and do do that too. You want all that on the keyboard? It's easy.

If you don't like dead keys.. well I can't help you. They are very useful. I have custom altgr mappings as well (including the num row). Proper quotes are easy to add. 30 keys is absolutely nothing for an altgr layer with dead keys. Even if you only used 20 (which is a lot less than what you could do) keys for symbols (and no dead keys), that's still 40 symbols with altgr and shift altgr. With just a couple of dead keys you'll get that same amount. Of course they wouldn't all be extremely easy to reach if you used more, but that wasn't even what I was talking about. It's easy enough to move just a few keys (ex: }, |, &, [, %, etc.) to easier reach spots. That's what I meant.

As for portability, I carry this around with me and have used it on many other people's computers (I only have encountered Windows, but I think I could do most of the same stuff on another computer running linux as well). Sure you may encounter problems at some point, but how is portability relevant to what  I said either?

I have to agree with Linkbane about your other comment.

Yeah, I'm ignorant... user of an ergodox with Colemak customized to fit 76 keys. How ironic. I've had to deal with issues mentioned above. The 3rd/4th layer is already occupied by typographic and national-alphabet symbols. Dead keys break typing flow, considering how common diacritic marks are /in Slavonic languages. Even this is a problem on standard layout, because AltGr is only on one side and hard to reach on some keyboards (especially winkeyless). And with another layer, it gets only worse. Dual-mode modifiers would help, but they're PITA to deal with.

However, I have no problem carrying an ergodox/typematrix with me or switching between different physical layouts.

I said you were ignorant because you said doing what I suggested isn't portable. It wasn't an insult. I'm not even sure how anything you're saying now relates to anything I said. As for altgr being hard to reach, a wide mod (shifting right hand over one key) can help. You can also just remap altgr (not sure if that is possible portably, but it probably is). I'm not sure exactly what problems you're having with your layout.. it seems that you already have all the symbols you need mapped.. if so, what is the problem? I think you're addressing something that I didn't say.

I don't know what you want or are doing, but my original suggestion works fine for me.

Again: four layers might be enough for an English-speaking American (yay stereotypes!) outside academia or someone like that, but if you need to use diacritic marks or extra symbols all the time, it's a completely different story. That means another layer (like in case of DreymaR's mods or Neo). Last time I checked, it was PITA to implement on Mac OS X, and dealing with RDC and SSH was even worse.

In the end, it's just easier to bring some Teensy-based hardware... which is e.g. the ergodox—with plenty of (symmetric) modifiers, layers and macros.

Too bad I haven't had time to reupload stuff I deleted with my wiki and GitHub account.

Extra symbols/marks are only a PITA if you aren't willing to have dead keys ar add more layers. I will admit that I hardly ever use diacritical marks, so dead keys don't really annoy me.

Right now I'm using 5 layers on linux and windows and could easily add more. It isn't exactly hard to do. Might take a few hours, but then you're done. In my situation, I'm convinced a software solution is much better. I just don't have the space to lug around a keyboard or ergodox all the time. I'll probably look into them at some point (or maybe an arduino), but right now I'd only use a hardware solution out of necessity (which hasn't been a problem so far).

As for OS X, I honestly try to stay as far away from it as possible (xD), but if xmodmap works on it (I think it should but have not tested...), then it should be relatively easy to have 5-6 layers portably (as in just load a file with mappings from terminal and then restart to clear them or load back to qwerty mappings when done).

I mean.. ergodox is an impressive hardware solution (is 9 layers the max?), but I think you're overestimating the difficulty of doing this without one. I will admit it's probably a lot easier to do with an ergodox and not have to worry about this stuff, but then you do have to carry it around everywhere.
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Offline davkol

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Re: What keyboard things will you never 'get'?
« Reply #355 on: Thu, 17 October 2013, 17:30:35 »
The funny part is that the same discussion happened about three pages ago.

yup... Ergo Dox and qwerty debates all over again.

Our posts to each other are just like keyboarding manufacturers- releasing mildly updated versions of the same thing and we all buy (in to) it. :)

I actually meant crack^Wclacks and Korean keyboards.

Offline Computer-Lab in Basement

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Re: What keyboard things will you never 'get'?
« Reply #356 on: Thu, 17 October 2013, 17:55:51 »
*post containing no logic whatsoever, only proving to everyone else how stubborn I am*

I like how you think you've won, yet nobody else has come to back up your arguments.

you act like an exceeding asshat to everyone who disagrees with you


Pot... meet kettle. Kettle, meet pot.



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Offline davkol

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Re: What keyboard things will you never 'get'?
« Reply #357 on: Thu, 17 October 2013, 18:01:34 »
Extra symbols/marks are only a PITA if you aren't willing to have dead keys ar add more layers. I will admit that I hardly ever use diacritical marks, so dead keys don't really annoy me.

letter frequency in Czech. Actually, there are very few words without any diacritic in real-life texts. Dead keys are tollerable for symbols with frequency below 1 %, such as umlauts (usully used only for names), but thumb-cluster modifiers are much more comfortable and "fluent" otherwise. The national layout puts those on number row—as you might imagine, it messes up the basic ASCII stuff.

Note that I'm completely ignoring Greek alphabet, math symbols etc.

Right now I'm using 5 layers on linux and windows and could easily add more. It isn't exactly hard to do. Might take a few hours, but then you're done. In my situation, I'm convinced a software solution is much better. I just don't have the space to lug around a keyboard or ergodox all the time. I'll probably look into them at some point (or maybe an arduino), but right now I'd only use a hardware solution out of necessity (which hasn't been a problem so far).

As for OS X, I honestly try to stay as far away from it as possible (xD), but if xmodmap works on it (I think it should but have not tested...), then it should be relatively easy to have 5-6 layers portably (as in just load a file with mappings from terminal and then restart to clear them or load back to qwerty mappings when done).

I mean.. ergodox is an impressive hardware solution (is 9 layers the max?), but I think you're overestimating the difficulty of doing this without one. I will admit it's probably a lot easier to do with an ergodox and not have to worry about this stuff, but then you do have to carry it around everywhere.

Been there, done that. Two years ago, I actually used those OS X and Win7 machines to ssh to department's servers, and connected to remote Win7 machines via RDC. It was horrible. The host was sometimes just left hanging in there with a stuck modifier or something, sometimes keystrokes resulted in only inserting rubbish...

On the other hand, ergodox (or TM2030 in the worst case) is plug'n'play with very few exceptions (ways to enter unicode symbols are platform-dependent). Change clients and hosts layout to US QWERTY and that's it.

Offline angelic_sedition

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Re: What keyboard things will you never 'get'?
« Reply #358 on: Thu, 17 October 2013, 18:18:30 »
Extra symbols/marks are only a PITA if you aren't willing to have dead keys ar add more layers. I will admit that I hardly ever use diacritical marks, so dead keys don't really annoy me.

letter frequency in Czech. Actually, there are very few words without any diacritic in real-life texts. Dead keys are tollerable for symbols with frequency below 1 %, such as umlauts (usully used only for names), but thumb-cluster modifiers are much more comfortable and "fluent" otherwise. The national layout puts those on number row—as you might imagine, it messes up the basic ASCII stuff.

Note that I'm completely ignoring Greek alphabet, math symbols etc.

Right now I'm using 5 layers on linux and windows and could easily add more. It isn't exactly hard to do. Might take a few hours, but then you're done. In my situation, I'm convinced a software solution is much better. I just don't have the space to lug around a keyboard or ergodox all the time. I'll probably look into them at some point (or maybe an arduino), but right now I'd only use a hardware solution out of necessity (which hasn't been a problem so far).

As for OS X, I honestly try to stay as far away from it as possible (xD), but if xmodmap works on it (I think it should but have not tested...), then it should be relatively easy to have 5-6 layers portably (as in just load a file with mappings from terminal and then restart to clear them or load back to qwerty mappings when done).

I mean.. ergodox is an impressive hardware solution (is 9 layers the max?), but I think you're overestimating the difficulty of doing this without one. I will admit it's probably a lot easier to do with an ergodox and not have to worry about this stuff, but then you do have to carry it around everywhere.

Been there, done that. Two years ago, I actually used those OS X and Win7 machines to ssh to department's servers, and connected to remote Win7 machines via RDC. It was horrible. The host was sometimes just left hanging in there with a stuck modifier or something, sometimes keystrokes resulted in only inserting rubbish...

On the other hand, ergodox (or TM2030 in the worst case) is plug'n'play with very few exceptions (ways to enter unicode symbols are platform-dependent). Change clients and hosts layout to US QWERTY and that's it.

Like I said, I was never making a reference to you. I do not use Czech and have never (and likely will never) suffer from any of these problems. My usb drive is plug and play. I'm glad that you've found a solution that works for you.
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Offline numiru

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Re: What keyboard things will you never 'get'?
« Reply #359 on: Thu, 17 October 2013, 21:44:41 »
Clickclacks. I don't know why they're so sought after. The skull ones don't even look that great. Don't kill me geekhack.
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Offline Pacifist

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Re: What keyboard things will you never 'get'?
« Reply #360 on: Thu, 17 October 2013, 21:46:22 »
TKL and 60%. If you don't want a numpad and save space, get a 75%. If you want to save even more space and get a 60%, just get a 40% and save even more space

Offline Martyr

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Re: What keyboard things will you never 'get'?
« Reply #361 on: Thu, 17 October 2013, 21:54:59 »
Clickclacks. I don't know why they're so sought after. The skull ones don't even look that great. Don't kill me geekhack.

Thought the same thing when I first joined GH, if you stick around your opinion might change.  ;)

Offline tbc

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Re: What keyboard things will you never 'get'?
« Reply #362 on: Thu, 17 October 2013, 21:56:08 »
which 40% boards and PCBs are available for purchase?
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Offline Dubsgalore

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Re: What keyboard things will you never 'get'?
« Reply #363 on: Thu, 17 October 2013, 21:59:14 »
TKL and 60%. If you don't want a numpad and save space, get a 75%. If you want to save even more space and get a 60%, just get a 40% and save even more space

60% or die Pacifist :p

Offline numiru

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Re: What keyboard things will you never 'get'?
« Reply #364 on: Thu, 17 October 2013, 22:03:31 »
Clickclacks. I don't know why they're so sought after. The skull ones don't even look that great. Don't kill me geekhack.

Thought the same thing when I first joined GH, if you stick around your opinion might change.  ;)
It's been like a year, I just created an account a few days ago. I browse a lot.
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Offline bueller

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Re: What keyboard things will you never 'get'?
« Reply #365 on: Fri, 18 October 2013, 01:12:04 »
MX Blues. Typing on them now and they're just horrible sounding, can't wait to get home and swap the stems out for some clears :D
It's a good width!  If it's half-width it's too narrow, and full-width is too wide. 

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Offline Linkbane

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Re: What keyboard things will you never 'get'?
« Reply #366 on: Fri, 18 October 2013, 01:19:44 »
MX Blues. Typing on them now and they're just horrible sounding, can't wait to get home and swap the stems out for some clears :D

The water must be getting in your ears down under!  :p
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Offline bueller

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Re: What keyboard things will you never 'get'?
« Reply #367 on: Fri, 18 October 2013, 01:21:45 »
Haha never! Probably the most unaustralian person ever, surrounded by beautiful beaches and I HATE the beach hahaha
It's a good width!  If it's half-width it's too narrow, and full-width is too wide. 

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Offline Pacifist

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Re: What keyboard things will you never 'get'?
« Reply #368 on: Fri, 18 October 2013, 01:22:04 »
TKL and 60%. If you don't want a numpad and save space, get a 75%. If you want to save even more space and get a 60%, just get a 40% and save even more space

60% or die Pacifist :p
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Offline tbc

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Re: What keyboard things will you never 'get'?
« Reply #369 on: Fri, 18 October 2013, 02:06:50 »
you're technically the target market for the filco minila then lol.  ;)

poker = 60% for modding + looks
HHKB = for topre
minila = for most efficient F-row + cursor block access
tex = for looks + minila-like functionality
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Offline bueller

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Re: What keyboard things will you never 'get'?
« Reply #370 on: Fri, 18 October 2013, 02:09:08 »
you're technically the target market for the filco minila then lol.  ;)

poker = 60% for modding + looks
HHKB = for topre
minila = for most efficient F-row + cursor block access
tex = for looks + minila-like functionality

You forgot the Pure! It's what I had arrive today and I can easily say I'm converted to 60%, the arrows using the right hand mods is a great idea.
It's a good width!  If it's half-width it's too narrow, and full-width is too wide. 

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Offline viowastaken

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Re: What keyboard things will you never 'get'?
« Reply #371 on: Fri, 18 October 2013, 04:04:24 »
TKL and 60%. If you don't want a numpad and save space, get a 75%. If you want to save even more space and get a 60%, just get a 40% and save even more space

Let me shed some light on this, as someone who has gone from 75% to TKL.

1. You can't possibly get keycaps that fit, at least in one set, unless you get blanks. I've had noppoos and Keycools and finding replacement keycaps is a nightmare.

2. the size difference is not significant at all. I can't notice any difference what so ever swapping back and forth. I use a keycool at work and a filco TKL at home, and at no point at all does it strike me that one is slightly bigger than the other.

3. Build quality. The 75% boards are only produced by noppoo, keycool, KBT and other somewhat subpar manufacturers. Not saying they are awful, but I don't think anyone will challenge me on the claim that filco is  vastly superior to all of the previously mentioned brands.

_______________


Now, for something that  I will never "get" : Why on Gods good earth does filco use ABS as their standard keycap material.

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Offline davkol

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Re: What keyboard things will you never 'get'?
« Reply #372 on: Fri, 18 October 2013, 17:24:24 »
Portable touchscreen keyboard layouts. I have yet to find a maintained implementation of ATOMIC/OPTI/FITALY for Android. Meanwhile, Dvorak and Colemak are included in the default installation, although their focus on home row renders them basically useless for one/two finger hunt'n'pecking on a small screen. Obviously, the most common layouts (the three symbols per key thing and QWERTY) don't make any sense either.

Offline davkol

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Re: What keyboard things will you never 'get'?
« Reply #373 on: Fri, 18 October 2013, 17:28:42 »
TKL and 60%. If you don't want a numpad and save space, get a 75%. If you want to save even more space and get a 60%, just get a 40% and save even more space

Let me shed some light on this, as someone who has gone from 75% to TKL.

1. You can't possibly get keycaps that fit, at least in one set, unless you get blanks. I've had noppoos and Keycools and finding replacement keycaps is a nightmare.

2. the size difference is not significant at all. I can't notice any difference what so ever swapping back and forth. I use a keycool at work and a filco TKL at home, and at no point at all does it strike me that one is slightly bigger than the other.

3. Build quality. The 75% boards are only produced by noppoo, keycool, KBT and other somewhat subpar manufacturers. Not saying they are awful, but I don't think anyone will challenge me on the claim that filco is  vastly superior to all of the previously mentioned brands.

It's great to use the nav cluster with my thumb, while my hand rests on the mouse/trackball.

I haven't felt any desire to replace *all* keycaps on my choc mini, they're thick Cherry-profile POM/PBT, after all.

Offline Nakapfao

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Re: What keyboard things will you never 'get'?
« Reply #374 on: Fri, 18 October 2013, 20:35:56 »
Scroll Lock - What does it do? I've never used it in my lifetime, yet there it is...

Ugh, scroll lock... Don't get us started...

Offline Belfong

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Re: What keyboard things will you never 'get'?
« Reply #375 on: Fri, 18 October 2013, 21:25:24 »

Scroll Lock - What does it do? I've never used it in my lifetime, yet there it is...

Ugh, scroll lock... Don't get us started...
Fortunately the scroll lock in my Code is somewhat useful now. It's a trigger to deactivate the Win key - useful in gaming.
 

Offline Linkbane

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Re: What keyboard things will you never 'get'?
« Reply #376 on: Fri, 18 October 2013, 23:31:43 »
Pause/Break. Deus Ex excluded.
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Offline metalliqaz

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Re: What keyboard things will you never 'get'?
« Reply #377 on: Sat, 19 October 2013, 00:37:19 »
Scroll Lock - What does it do? I've never used it in my lifetime, yet there it is...

Ugh, scroll lock... Don't get us started...

Open MS Excel, use arrow keys with scroll lock on and scroll lock off.  You will see what it is for.

Offline rowdy

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Re: What keyboard things will you never 'get'?
« Reply #378 on: Sat, 19 October 2013, 01:19:08 »
Scroll Lock - What does it do? I've never used it in my lifetime, yet there it is...

Ugh, scroll lock... Don't get us started...

Open MS Excel, use arrow keys with scroll lock on and scroll lock off.  You will see what it is for.

This gets me every time, usually when I have keycaps on that don't show the scroll lock LED through very well.
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