What keyboard things will you never 'get'?

[tuxsavvy]

The ugly as h*ll windows flag key. And not just that... but two of them. Two keys. Ugly as h*ll. And why did that logo have to be surrounded by a a glossy recessed circle? I guess just to make it as ugly as possible. If at all possible, these should be completely banned. Blank keys are much preferred. Why does MS get to insinuate themselves on just about EVERY keyboard on the planet? Call it "Meta," or call it "Shell" or call it nothing at all.

I completely agree. I personally loathe any keyboard bearing windows logo as a key. I hardly use windows and I have to put up with a keyboard with windows logo. Though that said from now on I'm going to avoid it or get replacement key caps that does not have windows logo on it (rather bearing none at all, I'm not wanting to pay extra just to get rid of that ugly redundant key).

The ugly as h*ll windows flag key. And not just that... but two of them. Two keys. Ugly as h*ll. And why did that logo have to be surrounded by a a glossy recessed circle? I guess just to make it as ugly as possible. If at all possible, these should be completely banned. Blank keys are much preferred. Why does MS get to insinuate themselves on just about EVERY keyboard on the planet? Call it "Meta," or call it "Shell" or call it nothing at all.

It's called branding.  Apple does it even more.  There's no "Meta" key because nobody uses Unix/Linux on the desktop. (relative to Windows)

Ok this is going to appear offtopic but at least iPhones does not have Apple's logo as a button. All those windows phones you see still has windows logo as a button. Even more so is that the exact same button is on the front (Apple logos on iPhones are on the back and it's not actually a button).

Also Apple keyboards are slowly moving away with that iconic Apple logo, the "command logo" looks nowhere near Apple's own logo that has been prominent on older keyboards. Windows keys are now based on that metro based windows 8 logo.

Fyi, I'm not here to support Apple in any form or way. I'm just detailing on how very different road two companies have taken and I still insist on loathing windows logo as a key.

[Hellmark]

To be honest, I am progressively not understanding clickclacks. Yeah they're cool, but for the same cost as the rest of the keyboard? No thanks.

[Tarzan_]

To be honest, I am progressively not understanding clickclacks. Yeah they're cool, but for the same cost as the rest of the keyboard? No thanks.

^This.

Interesting keycaps, sure, but for the same price I can get an entire set of Miami, a Dolch keyboard, CCNG set, or a custom Poker case.  To name just a few things I like better than one custom cap.

Toujours gai, I guess!

[esoomenona]

To be honest, I am progressively not understanding clickclacks. Yeah they're cool, but for the same cost as the rest of the keyboard? No thanks.

I have two on one keyboard that each cost more than the keyboard itself.

[Thimplum]

To be honest, I am progressively not understanding clickclacks. Yeah they're cool, but for the same cost as the rest of the keyboard? No thanks.

^This.

Interesting keycaps, sure, but for the same price I can get an entire set of Miami, a Dolch keyboard, CCNG set, or a custom Poker case.  To name just a few things I like better than one custom cap.

Toujours gai, I guess!

this

It's not just that you're new here. It's that you have a logical brain.

[MOZ]

I don't get the butthurt around CCs and why everyone tries to impose their opinions of them on each other.

Some people like them, some love them, some hate them, their choice. If you like them and are willing to spend the money, by all means do, it is yours and you can do whatever you want with it. However why do you have to impose your choice on those that don't like them, or can't afford them, the name calling, pushing, snark remarks over whether they can afford them or how many they have is not required.

If you don't like them, still great, why do you have to impose your opinion on that do and appreciate them? Why do you have to make sense out of their high cost, or compare them with could be bought in their exchange, why crap the auction/sale threads. Just ignore them if you don't like them.

This post is not directed at any particular individual, just the general polar ideologies regarding CC and how people get agitated over them.

[mauri]

I don't get the butthurt around CCs and why everyone tries to impose their opinions of them on each other.

Some people like them, some love them, some hate them, their choice. If you like them and are willing to spend the money, by all means do, it is yours and you can do whatever you want with it. However why do you have to impose your choice on those that don't like them, or can't afford them, the name calling, pushing, snark remarks over whether they can afford them or how many they have is not required.

If you don't like them, still great, why do you have to impose your opinion on that do and appreciate them? Why do you have to make sense out of their high cost, or compare them with could be bought in their exchange, why crap the auction/sale threads. Just ignore them if you don't like them.

This post is not directed at any particular individual, just the general polar ideologies regarding CC and how people get agitated over them.

You do realize this thread is specifically for expressing ones opinion about umm say about, click clacks for example.

[esoomenona]

If you like them and are willing to spend the money, by all means do, it is yours and you can do whatever you want with it. However why do you have to impose your choice on those that don't like them, or can't afford them, the name calling, pushing, snark remarks over whether they can afford them or how many they have is not required.

I'd like to see some examples of this happening.

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

To be honest, I am progressively not understanding clickclacks. Yeah they're cool, but for the same cost as the rest of the keyboard? No thanks.

^This.

Interesting keycaps, sure, but for the same price I can get an entire set of Miami, a Dolch keyboard, CCNG set, or a custom Poker case.  To name just a few things I like better than one custom cap.

Toujours gai, I guess!

this

It's not just that you're new here. It's that you have a logical brain.

I can easily explain a logical reason to own Clacks. This is from personal experience.

Clacks aren't just keycaps, they are investments.  And I used them as such.  When I worked at my last job, I got really into things here at GH and bought myself several rather expensive keycaps (CCs, BroCaps, etc.).  I cherished them for several months, but then I became unemployed.  So what did I do?  I sold them, getting a return on my investment at a time when I desperately needed the money.

Boom. Logical Clacks.

[Hellmark]

That's kinda my thing too. There are so many cool things I can do with the money. Also, one thing that bugs me about the really expensive custom keys, is that you wouldn't really ever be able to have a uniform look. Someone a while back posted a photo of some keys they made like a robot's head, and they had a row of them, alternating between the two types. That looked pretty badass to me, but having just one by itself would always look out of place, with the only spot to really look good being at the Escape key.

As far as MOZ's comment, well, I thought the entire idea of this thread was to let people voice their opinions on things they don't understand, for an open and frank discussion, with hopefully everyone having a better understanding in the end.

[metalliqaz]

Don't confuse imposing opinion with stating opinion. 

[mauri]

Don't confuse imposing opinion with stating opinion.

When the time and place is right, they just as well might be

2 cents and all

[metalliqaz]

Don't confuse imposing opinion with stating opinion.

When the time and place is right, they just as well might be

2 cents and all

Imposing opinion is when you throw someone in jail until they agree with you.  Or hit them.  Or kill them.  I think we are safely within the "free speech zone" on geekhack

[mauri]

Don't confuse imposing opinion with stating opinion.

When the time and place is right, they just as well might be

2 cents and all

Imposing opinion is when you throw someone in jail until they agree with you.  Or hit them.  Or kill them.  I think we are safely within the "free speech zone" on geekhack

More like voluntarily getting locked up in jail and wondering why all the convicts keep *****ing bout the guards

[Linkbane]

I can easily explain a logical reason to own Clacks. This is from personal experience.

Clacks aren't just keycaps, they are investments.  And I used them as such.  When I worked at my last job, I got really into things here at GH and bought myself several rather expensive keycaps (CCs, BroCaps, etc.).  I cherished them for several months, but then I became unemployed.  So what did I do?  I sold them, getting a return on my investment at a time when I desperately needed the money.

Boom. Logical Clacks.

Or you could have just saved yourself money (if you sold for less than you bought) by not buying it in the first place.
If you got money, it's no different from any other commodity besides the fact that you can put it on a board.

[angelic_sedition]

+1 for ergodox
+1 for non-touch typists (as in anyone who look at the keyboard or doesn't use all their fingers)

And I don't get all you QWERTY users! Still stuck in the 19th century. 

When you program for a living, you pretty much get familiar with every symbol on a modern keyboard fairly rapidly. At that point legends become a complete non-issue, and can sometimes even be a crutch.

Maybe for some people, but not for everyone. I use a lot of symbols both for programming and when using latex. I know where all the symbols are and I do not need legends to find my way around the keyboard..... unless I take my hands of the keyboard and do not have them in the typical homerow position, which happens a lot when working. Also, when I need to use multiple symbols in rapid succession, it is easy to get confused. I find that if I did not program, blanks would have been fine, but for me, because I sometimes make intensive use of symbols, blanks are just a pain in the behind. Sure enough they are fine 90% of the time, but even when it is only inconvenient every once in a while, that is already too much. For me use-ability comes first even though I think blanks can  look great.

And you still have trouble with }?

Yes, I do sometimes.  Especially if not typing continuously but taking my hands off my keyboard frequently to check notes, white something down, etc.  Regardless, the point seems to be aesthetics, and as I mentioned, I don't get that either.  I find having legends more appealing.

I don't get why people who use hard to reach symbols a lot don't just remap them for use in a more comfortable position (i.e. home row) for use with capslock or something. Takes minutes. Kind of a problem if you're stuck on a work computer that doesn't allow software, but makes things so much easier... I have all the navigation keys put on home row or in easy to reach place too (ex: hjkl on qwerty = left down up right and can put control and shift on left hand for easy text selection).

OT: Probably the ErgoDox. It really doesn't seem good at all to me, and tp4tissue has done a good job turning everyone off from it.

Everyone? I recommend to read some introductory logic textbook.

Typing has always been about speed, with feel important insofar as it limits my typing less.

Nah. Those, who actually care about speed, use stenography/stenotype.

.. Do you know anyone who even knows steno? Because I don't. I'll probably get into plover eventually, but most people I've encountered have never even heard of steno.

[Linkbane]

@angelic _sedition
Pretty much, I like typing for speed on any keyboard that I use, not some massive piece of bollocks that I have to drag around whenever I want to type quickly.
Anyways, the speed of typing on steno in terms of keystrokes is less, and that just doesn't seem as fun to me. Typing = fine anywhere, steno = immobile efficiency.
I feel as if Grim Fandango is just trolling super hard.

[angelic_sedition]

@angelic _sedition
Pretty much, I like typing for speed on any keyboard that I use, not some massive piece of bollocks that I have to drag around whenever I want to type quickly.
Anyways, the speed of typing on steno in terms of keystrokes is less, and that just doesn't seem as fun to me. Typing = fine anywhere, steno = immobile efficiency.
I feel as if Grim Fandango is just trolling super hard.

Woah slow down and read my post first.
1. I never endorsed steno over normal typing.
2. You can do steno on a normal keyboard (assuming it has n key rollover.. which shouldn't be a problem for the people on this site ).....
3. Fun or not, steno WR is around 375wpm I believe

So now I have another keyboard thing that I don't get:
People always thinking there has to be a hardware solution and not considering a software one.
(examples:
•people being obsessed with keyboards that have macro keys and not realizing that you can have macro keys with out a special keyboard and its software
•people thinking that remapping keys or using an alternate layout requires a new keyboard
•people thinking that steno requires getting a special machine)

For reference, this is what I said about steno: "Do you know anyone who even knows steno? Because I don't. I'll probably get into plover eventually, but most people I've encountered have never even heard of steno."

[Linkbane]

I know, I wasn't accusing you of anything, I was meaning it as more of a response to the quote.

[angelic_sedition]

I know, I wasn't accusing you of anything, I was meaning it as more of a response to the quote.

Well you directed it at me! You were talking about what davkol said I think. I think he/she was probably trolling.. I hope.

[CommunistWitchDr]

+1 for ergodox
+1 for non-touch typists (as in anyone who look at the keyboard or doesn't use all their fingers)

And I don't get all you QWERTY users! Still stuck in the 19th century. 

I don't get that someone could be opposed to QWERTY and not move to a keyboard like the ergodox or kinesis. If you're using a different layout public computers won't work anyway so the only reasons not to use a fully ergonomic setup are gone.

[terran5992]

-Keyboard filled with clacks

[davkol]

And I don't get all you QWERTY users! Still stuck in the 19th century. 

When you program for a living, you pretty much get familiar with every symbol on a modern keyboard fairly rapidly. At that point legends become a complete non-issue, and can sometimes even be a crutch.

Maybe for some people, but not for everyone. I use a lot of symbols both for programming and when using latex. I know where all the symbols are and I do not need legends to find my way around the keyboard..... unless I take my hands of the keyboard and do not have them in the typical homerow position, which happens a lot when working. Also, when I need to use multiple symbols in rapid succession, it is easy to get confused. I find that if I did not program, blanks would have been fine, but for me, because I sometimes make intensive use of symbols, blanks are just a pain in the behind. Sure enough they are fine 90% of the time, but even when it is only inconvenient every once in a while, that is already too much. For me use-ability comes first even though I think blanks can  look great.

And you still have trouble with }?

Yes, I do sometimes.  Especially if not typing continuously but taking my hands off my keyboard frequently to check notes, white something down, etc.  Regardless, the point seems to be aesthetics, and as I mentioned, I don't get that either.  I find having legends more appealing.

I don't get why people who use hard to reach symbols a lot don't just remap them for use in a more comfortable position (i.e. home row) for use with capslock or something. Takes minutes. Kind of a problem if you're stuck on a work computer that doesn't allow software, but makes things so much easier... I have all the navigation keys put on home row or in easy to reach place too (ex: hjkl on qwerty = left down up right and can put control and shift on left hand for easy text selection).

That isn't portable anyway—small reality check...

I type in Czech a lot. We have 14 extra letters (latin letters with diacritic marks, actually... but it's not like it makes a huge difference, dead keys are kinda annoying). You know, size matters. Add proper quotes and other typographic symbols. Alright, let's add ANSI symbols used in system administration and software development, that's about 14 symbols. Now, what about embedded navigation cluster? Another 10 keys. How do you cram all of this on ~30 keys avoiding stuff like Emacs pinkies?

OT: Probably the ErgoDox. It really doesn't seem good at all to me, and tp4tissue has done a good job turning everyone off from it.

Everyone? I recommend to read some introductory logic textbook.

Typing has always been about speed, with feel important insofar as it limits my typing less.

Nah. Those, who actually care about speed, use stenography/stenotype.

.. Do you know anyone who even knows steno? Because I don't. I'll probably get into plover eventually, but most people I've encountered have never even heard of steno.

Surprise–surprise... most people can't even touch type... and don't care.

[Reomero]

I will never get achieving "oneness with cupped rubber".




But maybe one day...

[Linkbane]

And I don't get all you QWERTY users! Still stuck in the 19th century. 

When you program for a living, you pretty much get familiar with every symbol on a modern keyboard fairly rapidly. At that point legends become a complete non-issue, and can sometimes even be a crutch.

Maybe for some people, but not for everyone. I use a lot of symbols both for programming and when using latex. I know where all the symbols are and I do not need legends to find my way around the keyboard..... unless I take my hands of the keyboard and do not have them in the typical homerow position, which happens a lot when working. Also, when I need to use multiple symbols in rapid succession, it is easy to get confused. I find that if I did not program, blanks would have been fine, but for me, because I sometimes make intensive use of symbols, blanks are just a pain in the behind. Sure enough they are fine 90% of the time, but even when it is only inconvenient every once in a while, that is already too much. For me use-ability comes first even though I think blanks can  look great.

And you still have trouble with }?

Yes, I do sometimes.  Especially if not typing continuously but taking my hands off my keyboard frequently to check notes, white something down, etc.  Regardless, the point seems to be aesthetics, and as I mentioned, I don't get that either.  I find having legends more appealing.

I don't get why people who use hard to reach symbols a lot don't just remap them for use in a more comfortable position (i.e. home row) for use with capslock or something. Takes minutes. Kind of a problem if you're stuck on a work computer that doesn't allow software, but makes things so much easier... I have all the navigation keys put on home row or in easy to reach place too (ex: hjkl on qwerty = left down up right and can put control and shift on left hand for easy text selection).

That isn't portable anyway—small reality check...

I type in Czech a lot. We have 14 extra letters (latin letters with diacritic marks, actually... but it's not like it makes a huge difference, dead keys are kinda annoying). You know, size matters. Add proper quotes and other typographic symbols. Alright, let's add ANSI symbols used in system administration and software development, that's about 14 symbols. Now, what about embedded navigation cluster? Another 10 keys. How do you cram all of this on ~30 keys avoiding stuff like Emacs pinkies?

OT: Probably the ErgoDox. It really doesn't seem good at all to me, and tp4tissue has done a good job turning everyone off from it.

Everyone? I recommend to read some introductory logic textbook.

Typing has always been about speed, with feel important insofar as it limits my typing less.

Nah. Those, who actually care about speed, use stenography/stenotype.

.. Do you know anyone who even knows steno? Because I don't. I'll probably get into plover eventually, but most people I've encountered have never even heard of steno.

Surprise–surprise... most people can't even touch type... and don't care.

Kind of funny that you'd say steno is the only true method for typing quickly, and then immediately say that it's worthless and people don't care about it to defend it.

[davkol]

wat.

[SpAmRaY]

wat.

FTFY

[angelic_sedition]

+1 for ergodox
+1 for non-touch typists (as in anyone who look at the keyboard or doesn't use all their fingers)

And I don't get all you QWERTY users! Still stuck in the 19th century. 

I don't get that someone could be opposed to QWERTY and not move to a keyboard like the ergodox or kinesis. If you're using a different layout public computers won't work anyway so the only reasons not to use a fully ergonomic setup are gone.

Totally different are the concept of rearranging the keys on a standard keyboard and using a totally different keyboard shape/design. It just looks very awkward to me. I will grant you that I've never actually tried one (I am planning on it though; I'm not totally closed minded), but I have tried keyboards that are two parts, and it felt very awkward for me.

Telling me that I can't use a different layout on public computers is total rubbish as well. I do it all the time. Even if there is no possibility to run any software (which I have yet to encounter at a university or school computer), there are still hardware solutions. I honestly don't know about libraries (I've only tried it once at a very small one where the computers let me run my software), but I normally bring my laptop with me anyway. Lugging an ergodox around with me would be a lot harder than carrying a usb drive.

That isn't portable anyway—small reality check...

I type in Czech a lot. We have 14 extra letters (latin letters with diacritic marks, actually... but it's not like it makes a huge difference, dead keys are kinda annoying). You know, size matters. Add proper quotes and other typographic symbols. Alright, let's add ANSI symbols used in system administration and software development, that's about 14 symbols. Now, what about embedded navigation cluster? Another 10 keys. How do you cram all of this on ~30 keys avoiding stuff like Emacs pinkies?

Small reality check—it definitely is portable. Just because you're ignorant about this doesn't mean you can tell me that what I've been doing almost daily is impossible (this isn't some hypothetical I randomly came up with).    Besides that I wasn't just talking about the home row (which I use primarily for navigation; I don't cram everything there if that's what you were getting at), and I never mentioned other typographic symbols (total strawman basically). But yeah, I can and do do that too. You want all that on the keyboard? It's easy.

If you don't like dead keys.. well I can't help you. They are very useful. I have custom altgr mappings as well (including the num row). Proper quotes are easy to add. 30 keys is absolutely nothing for an altgr layer with dead keys. Even if you only used 20 (which is a lot less than what you could do) keys for symbols (and no dead keys), that's still 40 symbols with altgr and shift altgr. With just a couple of dead keys you'll get that same amount. Of course they wouldn't all be extremely easy to reach if you used more, but that wasn't even what I was talking about. It's easy enough to move just a few keys (ex: }, |, &, [, %, etc.) to easier reach spots. That's what I meant.

As for portability, I carry this around with me and have used it on many other people's computers (I only have encountered Windows, but I think I could do most of the same stuff on another computer running linux as well). Sure you may encounter problems at some point, but how is portability relevant to what  I said either?

I have to agree with Linkbane about your other comment.

[davkol]

That isn't portable anyway—small reality check...

I type in Czech a lot. We have 14 extra letters (latin letters with diacritic marks, actually... but it's not like it makes a huge difference, dead keys are kinda annoying). You know, size matters. Add proper quotes and other typographic symbols. Alright, let's add ANSI symbols used in system administration and software development, that's about 14 symbols. Now, what about embedded navigation cluster? Another 10 keys. How do you cram all of this on ~30 keys avoiding stuff like Emacs pinkies?

Small reality check—it definitely is portable. Just because you're ignorant about this doesn't mean you can tell me that what I've been doing almost daily is impossible (this isn't some hypothetical I randomly came up with).    Besides that I wasn't just talking about the home row (which I use primarily for navigation; I don't cram everything there if that's what you were getting at), and I never mentioned other typographic symbols (total strawman basically). But yeah, I can and do do that too. You want all that on the keyboard? It's easy.

If you don't like dead keys.. well I can't help you. They are very useful. I have custom altgr mappings as well (including the num row). Proper quotes are easy to add. 30 keys is absolutely nothing for an altgr layer with dead keys. Even if you only used 20 (which is a lot less than what you could do) keys for symbols (and no dead keys), that's still 40 symbols with altgr and shift altgr. With just a couple of dead keys you'll get that same amount. Of course they wouldn't all be extremely easy to reach if you used more, but that wasn't even what I was talking about. It's easy enough to move just a few keys (ex: }, |, &, [, %, etc.) to easier reach spots. That's what I meant.

As for portability, I carry this around with me and have used it on many other people's computers (I only have encountered Windows, but I think I could do most of the same stuff on another computer running linux as well). Sure you may encounter problems at some point, but how is portability relevant to what  I said either?

I have to agree with Linkbane about your other comment.

Yeah, I'm ignorant... user of an ergodox with Colemak customized to fit 76 keys. How ironic. I've had to deal with issues mentioned above. The 3rd/4th layer is already occupied by typographic and national-alphabet symbols. Dead keys break typing flow, considering how common diacritic marks are /in Slavonic languages. Even this is a problem on standard layout, because AltGr is only on one side and hard to reach on some keyboards (especially winkeyless). And with another layer, it gets only worse. Dual-mode modifiers would help, but they're PITA to deal with.

However, I have no problem carrying an ergodox/typematrix with me or switching between different physical layouts.

[angelic_sedition]

That isn't portable anyway—small reality check...

I type in Czech a lot. We have 14 extra letters (latin letters with diacritic marks, actually... but it's not like it makes a huge difference, dead keys are kinda annoying). You know, size matters. Add proper quotes and other typographic symbols. Alright, let's add ANSI symbols used in system administration and software development, that's about 14 symbols. Now, what about embedded navigation cluster? Another 10 keys. How do you cram all of this on ~30 keys avoiding stuff like Emacs pinkies?

Small reality check—it definitely is portable. Just because you're ignorant about this doesn't mean you can tell me that what I've been doing almost daily is impossible (this isn't some hypothetical I randomly came up with).    Besides that I wasn't just talking about the home row (which I use primarily for navigation; I don't cram everything there if that's what you were getting at), and I never mentioned other typographic symbols (total strawman basically). But yeah, I can and do do that too. You want all that on the keyboard? It's easy.

If you don't like dead keys.. well I can't help you. They are very useful. I have custom altgr mappings as well (including the num row). Proper quotes are easy to add. 30 keys is absolutely nothing for an altgr layer with dead keys. Even if you only used 20 (which is a lot less than what you could do) keys for symbols (and no dead keys), that's still 40 symbols with altgr and shift altgr. With just a couple of dead keys you'll get that same amount. Of course they wouldn't all be extremely easy to reach if you used more, but that wasn't even what I was talking about. It's easy enough to move just a few keys (ex: }, |, &, [, %, etc.) to easier reach spots. That's what I meant.

As for portability, I carry this around with me and have used it on many other people's computers (I only have encountered Windows, but I think I could do most of the same stuff on another computer running linux as well). Sure you may encounter problems at some point, but how is portability relevant to what  I said either?

I have to agree with Linkbane about your other comment.

Yeah, I'm ignorant... user of an ergodox with Colemak customized to fit 76 keys. How ironic. I've had to deal with issues mentioned above. The 3rd/4th layer is already occupied by typographic and national-alphabet symbols. Dead keys break typing flow, considering how common diacritic marks are /in Slavonic languages. Even this is a problem on standard layout, because AltGr is only on one side and hard to reach on some keyboards (especially winkeyless). And with another layer, it gets only worse. Dual-mode modifiers would help, but they're PITA to deal with.

However, I have no problem carrying an ergodox/typematrix with me or switching between different physical layouts.

I said you were ignorant because you said doing what I suggested isn't portable. It wasn't an insult. I'm not even sure how anything you're saying now relates to anything I said. As for altgr being hard to reach, a wide mod (shifting right hand over one key) can help. You can also just remap altgr (not sure if that is possible portably, but it probably is). I'm not sure exactly what problems you're having with your layout.. it seems that you already have all the symbols you need mapped.. if so, what is the problem? I think you're addressing something that I didn't say.

I don't know what you want or are doing, but my original suggestion works fine for me.

[tp4tissue]

To be honest, I am progressively not understanding clickclacks. Yeah they're cool, but for the same cost as the rest of the keyboard? No thanks.

^This.

Interesting keycaps, sure, but for the same price I can get an entire set of Miami, a Dolch keyboard, CCNG set, or a custom Poker case.  To name just a few things I like better than one custom cap.

Toujours gai, I guess!

this

It's not just that you're new here. It's that you have a logical brain.

I can easily explain a logical reason to own Clacks. This is from personal experience.

Clacks aren't just keycaps, they are investments.  And I used them as such.  When I worked at my last job, I got really into things here at GH and bought myself several rather expensive keycaps (CCs, BroCaps, etc.).  I cherished them for several months, but then I became unemployed.  So what did I do?  I sold them, getting a return on my investment at a time when I desperately needed the money.

Boom. Logical Clacks.

You do realize that CC falls under the dumbest most risky type of investment... if CC was a rated bond, it would have near perfect default risk...

I don't know how old you guys are.. but "investing in clacks"... please do not push this argument.. it's like investing in beanie-babies. 

[Linkbane]

^^ Oh no, I actually agreed with TP4.
WB btw.

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

To be honest, I am progressively not understanding clickclacks. Yeah they're cool, but for the same cost as the rest of the keyboard? No thanks.

^This.

Interesting keycaps, sure, but for the same price I can get an entire set of Miami, a Dolch keyboard, CCNG set, or a custom Poker case.  To name just a few things I like better than one custom cap.

Toujours gai, I guess!

this

It's not just that you're new here. It's that you have a logical brain.

I can easily explain a logical reason to own Clacks. This is from personal experience.

Clacks aren't just keycaps, they are investments.  And I used them as such.  When I worked at my last job, I got really into things here at GH and bought myself several rather expensive keycaps (CCs, BroCaps, etc.).  I cherished them for several months, but then I became unemployed.  So what did I do?  I sold them, getting a return on my investment at a time when I desperately needed the money.

Boom. Logical Clacks.

You do realize that CC falls under the dumbest most risky type of investment... if CC was a rated bond, it would have near perfect default risk...

I don't know how old you guys are.. but "investing in clacks"... please do not push this argument.. it's like investing in beanie-babies. 

Show Image

Here's what is right about your statement: Clacks are indeed poor investments. But that's not the point I was trying to make. My point is that (in my experience) Clacks actually served a purpose. I was able to fall back on their monetary value at a time when I needed it most. So people that disregard them as simply "useless pieces of plastic" are just being ignorant.

One could compare artisan keycaps to any other form of art.  There are certain pieces made by certain artists that are worth a lot of money. But what purpose do they serve other than to be aesthetically pleasing and influence culture? That's right, NONE! And Clacks fall into that same category. They have greatly influenced the culture here at Geekhack, and nothing you say is going to change that.

[Linkbane]

You seem quite smug about that. Good job, clacks are used by some geekhackers with more money than sense, or the few that actually got them for what CC wanted them to be, a piece of art, not a commodity.

"Clacks aren't just keycaps, they are investments.  And I used them as such.  When I worked at my last job, I got really into things here at GH and bought myself several rather expensive keycaps (CCs, BroCaps, etc.).  I cherished them for several months, but then I became unemployed.  So what did I do?  I sold them, getting a return on my investment at a time when I desperately needed the money.

Boom. Logical Clacks."

Your entire point was that they are investments, so when you say that you aren't, good job going straight back on what you said.
By the way, you can sell a "useless piece of plastic" at the exact same price that you bought it at. One shaped like a keycap is the exact same. Boom, you're wrong.

I feel sorry for CC, honestly. He spends all this time making the keycaps so people can enjoy them and then people just get greedy and sell them at exorbitant prices because they managed to get them first. I don't find that there's anything wrong with clacks themselves, just superiority resulting from ownership of them and the ridiculous prices they go for. Bro Caps is particularly bad about that.

[metalliqaz]

clacks are used by some geekhackers with more money than sense

butthurt detected

[Linkbane]

clacks are used by some geekhackers with more money than sense

butthurt detected

meta-butthurt detected

[davkol]

That isn't portable anyway—small reality check...

I type in Czech a lot. We have 14 extra letters (latin letters with diacritic marks, actually... but it's not like it makes a huge difference, dead keys are kinda annoying). You know, size matters. Add proper quotes and other typographic symbols. Alright, let's add ANSI symbols used in system administration and software development, that's about 14 symbols. Now, what about embedded navigation cluster? Another 10 keys. How do you cram all of this on ~30 keys avoiding stuff like Emacs pinkies?

Small reality check—it definitely is portable. Just because you're ignorant about this doesn't mean you can tell me that what I've been doing almost daily is impossible (this isn't some hypothetical I randomly came up with).    Besides that I wasn't just talking about the home row (which I use primarily for navigation; I don't cram everything there if that's what you were getting at), and I never mentioned other typographic symbols (total strawman basically). But yeah, I can and do do that too. You want all that on the keyboard? It's easy.

If you don't like dead keys.. well I can't help you. They are very useful. I have custom altgr mappings as well (including the num row). Proper quotes are easy to add. 30 keys is absolutely nothing for an altgr layer with dead keys. Even if you only used 20 (which is a lot less than what you could do) keys for symbols (and no dead keys), that's still 40 symbols with altgr and shift altgr. With just a couple of dead keys you'll get that same amount. Of course they wouldn't all be extremely easy to reach if you used more, but that wasn't even what I was talking about. It's easy enough to move just a few keys (ex: }, |, &, [, %, etc.) to easier reach spots. That's what I meant.

As for portability, I carry this around with me and have used it on many other people's computers (I only have encountered Windows, but I think I could do most of the same stuff on another computer running linux as well). Sure you may encounter problems at some point, but how is portability relevant to what  I said either?

I have to agree with Linkbane about your other comment.

Yeah, I'm ignorant... user of an ergodox with Colemak customized to fit 76 keys. How ironic. I've had to deal with issues mentioned above. The 3rd/4th layer is already occupied by typographic and national-alphabet symbols. Dead keys break typing flow, considering how common diacritic marks are /in Slavonic languages. Even this is a problem on standard layout, because AltGr is only on one side and hard to reach on some keyboards (especially winkeyless). And with another layer, it gets only worse. Dual-mode modifiers would help, but they're PITA to deal with.

However, I have no problem carrying an ergodox/typematrix with me or switching between different physical layouts.

I said you were ignorant because you said doing what I suggested isn't portable. It wasn't an insult. I'm not even sure how anything you're saying now relates to anything I said. As for altgr being hard to reach, a wide mod (shifting right hand over one key) can help. You can also just remap altgr (not sure if that is possible portably, but it probably is). I'm not sure exactly what problems you're having with your layout.. it seems that you already have all the symbols you need mapped.. if so, what is the problem? I think you're addressing something that I didn't say.

I don't know what you want or are doing, but my original suggestion works fine for me.

Again: four layers might be enough for an English-speaking American (yay stereotypes!) outside academia or someone like that, but if you need to use diacritic marks or extra symbols all the time, it's a completely different story. That means another layer (like in case of DreymaR's mods or Neo). Last time I checked, it was PITA to implement on Mac OS X, and dealing with RDC and SSH was even worse.

In the end, it's just easier to bring some Teensy-based hardware... which is e.g. the ergodox—with plenty of (symmetric) modifiers, layers and macros.

Too bad I haven't had time to reupload stuff I deleted with my wiki and GitHub account.

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

Your entire point was that they are investments, so when you say that you aren't, good job going straight back on what you said.
By the way, you can sell a "useless piece of plastic" at the exact same price that you bought it at. One shaped like a keycap is the exact same. Boom, you're wrong.

A poor investment is still an investment. Or have they changed the definition of investment entirely?

You completely failed to see my comparison, which indicates you can't even comprehend simple analogies. Did they not teach you about them in 3rd grade?

You're stubbornness is not going to make you many friends here. There are many other people with similar viewpoints to mine, and the only reason why you haven't heard them complaining is because it's not worth the time, you will never change your mind...

Might I add that you would make a great politician. They're heads are so far up there asses they can't even balance the budget...

[smknjoe]

To be honest, I am progressively not understanding clickclacks. Yeah they're cool, but for the same cost as the rest of the keyboard? No thanks.

I don't understand the fascination with rainbow colored skulls on a keyboard either. Maybe I would if I was still 12yrs. old and into Megadeth (I might still like Megadeth a little )

[esoomenona]

To be honest, I am progressively not understanding clickclacks. Yeah they're cool, but for the same cost as the rest of the keyboard? No thanks.

I don't understand the fascination with rainbow colored skulls on a keyboard either. Maybe I would if I was still 12yrs. old and into Megadeth (I might still like Megadeth a little )

See. This right here. Why does a person who likes any sort of color have to be 12 years old? Why is the first thing you can think of putting people down?

[Michael]

Your entire point was that they are investments, so when you say that you aren't, good job going straight back on what you said.
By the way, you can sell a "useless piece of plastic" at the exact same price that you bought it at. One shaped like a keycap is the exact same. Boom, you're wrong.

You completely fail

Fixed that for you, bro.

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

Your entire point was that they are investments, so when you say that you aren't, good job going straight back on what you said.
By the way, you can sell a "useless piece of plastic" at the exact same price that you bought it at. One shaped like a keycap is the exact same. Boom, you're wrong.

You completely fail

Fixed that for you, bro.

Thanks man, appreciate it )

[smknjoe]

To be honest, I am progressively not understanding clickclacks. Yeah they're cool, but for the same cost as the rest of the keyboard? No thanks.

I don't understand the fascination with rainbow colored skulls on a keyboard either. Maybe I would if I was still 12yrs. old and into Megadeth (I might still like Megadeth a little )

See. This right here. Why does a person who likes any sort of color have to be 12 years old? Why is the first thing you can think of putting people down?

I wasn't trying to put anyone down and I certainly wasn't pointing fingers. I was just stating that is probably the only time in my life that I could relate to such an interest.

Edit: and my emphasis was on the skull not the color. I just threw that in there. I have some colored caps (that I don't use) myself.

[unicomp_uc]

This is a thread for things we will never 'get'... I think it's a natural part of the discussion to add why it is that a person will never 'get' a particular thing.

Both the thing you do not 'get' and the reason for it are both completely subjective. As long as the post doesn't try to convince others of the same; I see no problem with it IMO.

[esoomenona]

But why do we always have to "get" things?

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

This is a thread for things we will never 'get'... I think it's a natural part of the discussion to add why it is that a person will never 'get' a particular thing.

Both the thing you do not 'get' and the reason for it are both completely subjective. As long as the post doesn't try to convince others of the same; I see no problem with it IMO.

Try telling that to Linkbane...

[davkol]

The funny part is that the same discussion happened about three pages ago.

[unicomp_uc]

The funny part is that the same discussion happened about three pages ago.

yup... Ergo Dox and qwerty debates all over again.

Our posts to each other are just like keyboarding manufacturers- releasing mildly updated versions of the same thing and we all buy (in to) it.

[unicomp_uc]

But why do we always have to "get" things?

We don't always have to "get" things... I love the hippie ideal "Live and let live" lol. However, this thread is specifically for people to express what they don't "get". So arguing that point here is kind of silly.


No disrespect, because I genuinely like your posts and think you contribute a lot of cool things to the site from what I've read (Not that you give a ****  ).

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

^This guy, he gets it...