Which cherry MX switches are best for fingers?

[gunbuster363]

I am suffering from fingers RSI due to excessive playing diablo and day job of programmer.

I need a keyboard which is easy on my finger.

I just bought a ducky zero 2108 brown to my office but I am thinking of switching to cherry mx red/blue.

I don't like the big initial force require to push down the cherry mx brown key so I am thinking of a red. However, I also like the tactile bump feeling. If I use red if I would bottom out so I think there is really no different than using a rubberdome keyboard. So I am torn between red and blue..

I know that the required force to activation for red is 45g and 55g for blue but is it all I need to decide the type of switch?

The usage of the keyboard is mostly programming, no gaming. I've already quit pc gaming due to the fingers pain.

[naokira]

Whats your current switch?

[CalmB4tehPwn]

Brown is identical to blue, in actuation. The only difference is the click that Blue has.

However, and correct me if I'm wrong, Red has a lighter force required to actuate, and may be your ticket, but since it's linear, there's no feedback on when it actuates, and you'll find yourself bottoming out the keys, which could be harder on your fingers in the end.

Between brown and red, it'll be personal preference, I'd say try the browns for a couple months, try out reds and see if it's easier on you.

[Photekq]

Brown is identical to blue, in actuation. The only difference is the click that Blue has.

However, and correct me if I'm wrong, Red has a lighter force required to actuate, and may be your ticket, but since it's linear, there's no feedback on when it actuates, and you'll find yourself bottoming out the keys, which could be harder on your fingers in the end.

Between brown and red, it'll be personal preference, I'd say try the browns for a couple months, try out reds and see if it's easier on you.

How do you mean brown is identical to blue in actuation? The bump is FAR more noticable in blue.

[CalmB4tehPwn]

Really? I haven't used brown myself, only judging on what others have said.

I swear to got I'd hear they were exactly the same, only that the blue is more audible.

If the actuation is more noticeable on blue, would that be more jarring on his fingers?

[naokira]

If youre coming from mx black. Red or brown seems a good choice, though it takes time to get used to red coming from a heavier switch.

[CalmB4tehPwn]

He's coming from browns.

[gunbuster363]

Thanks guys for the quick replys.

I am using cherry mx brown switch as stated in the post above.

Please tell if it is a wise choice to switch from brown to blue? Would the clicky bump help my finger? I really like the sound of blue ( I tried once in the shop ) so I might have a rush to buy a blue just to see if it fits me. Or maybe it is a stupid mistake.

But the red one, I might bottom out easily...

[Tony]

Any switch is ok for your fingers. Brown and red are lighter.

If you play games like Diablo excessively, any switch will cause you pain.

[Photekq]

Really? I haven't used brown myself, only judging on what others have said.

I swear to got I'd hear they were exactly the same, only that the blue is more audible.

If the actuation is more noticeable on blue, would that be more jarring on his fingers?

Yes, I've owned both browns and blues. The brown switch has the most insignificant bump of all the tactile switches, and blues have a more significant bump than all of the tactile switches.

[rowdy]

Might the strain be from the angle you hold your hands while typing?

Maybe check your workspace, adjust seat height, keyboard angle and so on.

Apart from that, reds are probably lightest - a few people report accidentally pressing keys while resting fingers on them (actually I did this at lunch time today while playing Minecraft).

Alternatively there are a few other boards with really, really light switches - search might be able to help.

Have a look in the ergonimisc section, especially for posts about RSI.

[TimIsABat]

I suffer from RSI as well, and it really comes down to the workspace and angles. I don't have the funds to set up a new workspace, but it definitely does help to have pretty much any mechanical switch if you are using a stock RD switch from a typical membrane board.

MX Reds were pretty good for solving RSI after getting used to the extremely light and linear feeling of the keys, but it really helps to have a soft o-ring like that from WASD (the blue ones) or the large red silicone o-rings from IMSTO if your keycaps permit. I've also used a board with 62g o-rings, which honestly felt better than my mx reds. They help since they help wane off of bottoming out, but adding a soft o-ring also helps.  I want to get a Topre board (specifically 55g to prevent bottoming out) because I have read that they have a soft bottoming out and really smooth key press.

I'm actually testing out a AT101 with black ALPs right now that I just cleaned up...the switches are kinda old and some sticky so it is definitely straining on my wrists when I have to force the keys down with some keystrokes.

[gunbuster363]

I suffer from RSI as well, and it really comes down to the workspace and angles. I don't have the funds to set up a new workspace, but it definitely does help to have pretty much any mechanical switch if you are using a stock RD switch from a typical membrane board.

MX Reds were pretty good for solving RSI after getting used to the extremely light and linear feeling of the keys, but it really helps to have a soft o-ring like that from WASD (the blue ones) or the large red silicone o-rings from IMSTO if your keycaps permit. I've also used a board with 62g o-rings, which honestly felt better than my mx reds. They help since they help wane off of bottoming out, but adding a soft o-ring also helps.  I want to get a Topre board (specifically 55g to prevent bottoming out) because I have read that they have a soft bottoming out and really smooth key press.

I'm actually testing out a AT101 with black ALPs right now that I just cleaned up...the switches are kinda old and some sticky so it is definitely straining on my wrists when I have to force the keys down with some keystrokes.

Thanks dude I might go to the mall and try out the red switch first. Also this is my first time to know the existence of o-ring, might look into that later.

[jabar]

You'll want to look into something like the Ergodox since it does what no production keyboard barring Kinesis or Maltron does right now.

Lighter switches are not necessarily the answer. Bottoming out on light switches has impulse which could lend to RSI.

[gunbuster363]

You'll want to look into something like the Ergodox since it does what no production keyboard barring Kinesis or Maltron does right now.

Lighter switches are not necessarily the answer. Bottoming out on light switches has impulse which could lend to RSI.

Thanks dude I have no idea what a ErgoDox is but I googled it and finding the shape of it is rather distracting....

I work in a large company so I mostly would like to avoid something that is so weird and people would gossip...

I don't type much at home cause I've already abandoned gaming and I don't work at home so there is no need for a good ergonomic keyboard at home also.... I think I might try out the keyboards which look rather normal now...

Thanks for your suggestion anyway. Big thanks.

[TimIsABat]

You'll want to look into something like the Ergodox since it does what no production keyboard barring Kinesis or Maltron does right now.

Lighter switches are not necessarily the answer. Bottoming out on light switches has impulse which could lend to RSI.

New TP4? JK XD

But seriously, I really want an ErgoDox or a Kinesis one of these days. 62g ergoclears on an ErgoDox is a dream to me. Ugh, probably solve like 85% of my issues with Carpal.

[TheQsanity]

If you put headphones on and take out the noise they feel very similar. I do prefer blues to brown though. Only thing is brown is better for double tapping therefore gaming.

[SpAmRaY]

If you put headphones on and take out the noise they feel very similar. I do prefer blues to brown though. Only thing is brown is better for double tapping therefore gaming.

But reds are so easy to press? Wouldn't they double tap faster?

[TheQsanity]

If you put headphones on and take out the noise they feel very similar. I do prefer blues to brown though. Only thing is brown is better for double tapping therefore gaming.

But reds are so easy to press? Wouldn't they double tap faster?

Well I was just comparing browns and blues but. Yeah reds are my fav just because they are the fastest.

[TimIsABat]

I retract all my statements and suggest you get a Model M. I thought it was going to be extremely straining to press down on the keys, but honestly it really doesn't take much. The tactility is just superb...even to the ergoclear which I fell in love with. The bottom out isn't too harsh and it really just feels like it was meant to be used by anyone unless they have severe issues like hypersensitivity or severe carpal. I only have mild carpal so I am not really that bad in that aspect. Otherwise, the feel of buckling spring is just amazing and really feels like the best weight.

[meiosis]

Model M is worse for the fingers, the spring is stronger.


Go Topre (HHKB), I think browns was already the weaker switch which did not even need bottoming out. Most of the time it is your posture try shifting your chair so you sit at a more comfortable angle and not directly down.

[Infallible]

I've tried every switch and browns sound like the ideal switch for you to be honest. I wouldn't bother trying blues, they're very comparable to browns, just a slightly stronger bump and noisier. They also feel strangely more fragile to me, which my friends agree with, but I haven't seen anyone on here mention it. If you don't like browns I would definitely try reds before you try blues. If you want a lighter press they're definitely your best bet, if they're not good enough you'll have to get into customizing your switches with some even lighter springs. I've done it once messing around with some knock-off cherry switches I got in a keyboard at a thrift store but it's not my thing. Good luck!

[TimIsABat]

Model M is worse for the fingers, the spring is stronger.


Go Topre (HHKB), I think browns was already the weaker switch which did not even need bottoming out. Most of the time it is your posture try shifting your chair so you sit at a more comfortable angle and not directly down.

It definitely is not worse for the fingers. I find it better because it brings your fingers back to the original position faster so you won't strain your fingers from pressing. Topre does sound better to me though when it comes to how soft the press is supposed to be.

[Niomosy]

Model M is worse for the fingers, the spring is stronger.


Go Topre (HHKB), I think browns was already the weaker switch which did not even need bottoming out. Most of the time it is your posture try shifting your chair so you sit at a more comfortable angle and not directly down.

It definitely is not worse for the fingers. I find it better because it brings your fingers back to the original position faster so you won't strain your fingers from pressing. Topre does sound better to me though when it comes to how soft the press is supposed to be.

Depends on the person.  As someone with RSI, I could not type on my Model M for long periods of time.  Mine remains more as a weapon during the zombie apocalypse than anything.  My SGI granite got a bit more use but even then I began to feel the pain my right forearm and had to back off using it (cream Alps, I believe on that one).

[MOZ]

What is a Cherry MX switch?

[Thimplum]

What is a Cherry MX switch?

You have GOT to be kidding me. STOP. NOW.

[Rafen]

MX reds feel a lot lighter on the fingers compared to browns, IMO. If I had RSI I would be using reds for sure. I've been using them for a while and noticed that I have been typing a lot lighter with them. The great thing is that if you bottom out it doesn't hurt your fingers since the switches don't require that much force to actuate. 

Edit: I read your first post and noticed that you are a programmer as well as myself. I use a Ducky w/reds at work and I don't experience any finger pain.

[dorkvader]

You'll want to look into something like the Ergodox since it does what no production keyboard barring Kinesis or Maltron does right now.

Lighter switches are not necessarily the answer. Bottoming out on light switches has impulse which could lend to RSI.

This is a very good point, but if you get used to light switches and not bottoming out, typing on an ergonomic keybaord can be much nicer. You may want to consider the super light 45g replacement springs (available from originitve and possibly elsewhere) Otherwise a modified cherry MY keyboard (leafs only) is something like 25 cN or so.

[rowdy]

If you put headphones on and take out the noise they feel very similar. I do prefer blues to brown though. Only thing is brown is better for double tapping therefore gaming.

But reds are so easy to press? Wouldn't they double tap faster?

The spring is weaker, so they don't bounce back up into position as quickly.  Blacks, with the stronger spring, would bounce more quickly back up into position ready for the second tap.

[gunbuster363]

Thanks guys.

At the end, I bought a cm quickfire xt keyboard with cherry mx red.

The cherry mx red switch is really light and I like it ( for now ).

much better than brown when I do not bottle out

[TimIsABat]

Thanks guys.

At the end, I bought a cm quickfire xt keyboard with cherry mx red.

The cherry mx red switch is really light and I like it ( for now ).

much better than brown when I do not bottle out

I was a red guy till I converted a Poker X with MX Reds to 62g Ergoclears. Than I became an ergoclear and BS person.

[PointyFox]

I'd recommend Topre, scissor switch, or plain rubber dome.  They have soft bottoming out.  The rest don't and orings are hard.

[dorkvader]

The spring is weaker, so they don't bounce back up into position as quickly.  Blacks, with the stronger spring, would bounce more quickly back up into position ready for the second tap.

Just so everyone is clear, the lighter springs of MX reds don't affect the time it takes to travel back up that much. It takes the controller longer to debounce the switch than the switch to return.

[TimIsABat]

I'd recommend Topre, scissor switch, or plain rubber dome.  They have soft bottoming out.  The rest don't and orings are hard.

Depends on which o-ring you get. 50A is still softer than a plain bottom out. Thick red silicone rings are definitely softer than a 50A, and the blue 40A rings that they have on WASD are still pretty soft.

[davkol]

There was someone with a similar issue (much more serious though), and I think he settled on a 30g Topre. Of course, that's far from cheap... Goldtouch Adjustable Keyboard would work as well—very light touch, soft bottoming out, and keyboard's halves can be tented.

[TimIsABat]

Another thing that could help you would be to switch your layout. Ever since I switched to Colemak, my wrists have been hurting significantly less and my fingers feel a lot less strained. Put this with a comfortable keyboard and you might solve 25% or more of your problems.

[Thimplum]

I think that it is less about the switch, and more about the ergonomics. I recommend not letting your shoulders slump while you type. It feels uncomfortable at first, but after a while it can really help.

[rationull]

Another vote for checking the ergonomics of your workstation regardless of what keyboard you use. I've found, personally, desk and chair height make a really big difference when typing for extended periods.

I know you said you didn't want anything too "different" but if you find your new keyboard doesn't work out for you, you might want to check out the Kinesis Advantage. I've used one for years (although I alternate between the Kinesis and a WASD board these days) and along with a thumb trackball instead of a mouse I think it's a superior setup for ergonomics. And now you can get them with red switches instead of browns if you think the browns really were causing you a problem.

[gunbuster363]

Thanks everyone.

I know about the importance of ergonomics but there is nothing I can do to improve my workstation. ( I cannot install a keyboard tray which would make the ergonomics much better )

I have done several things to reduce my rsi and I have no wrist pain but only problem with the fingers. I am aware of the posture of the hand/wrist.

what I am trying to do now is to reduce the workload of my fingers because rubberdome keyboard keep hurting me when I pressed the key.

So I am searching for a right keyboard now. Now I am settled temporarily with cherry mx red.

[TimIsABat]

Thanks everyone.

I know about the importance of ergonomics but there is nothing I can do to improve my workstation. ( I cannot install a keyboard tray which would make the ergonomics much better )

I have done several things to reduce my rsi and I have no wrist pain but only problem with the fingers. I am aware of the posture of the hand/wrist.

what I am trying to do now is to reduce the workload of my fingers because rubberdome keyboard keep hurting me when I pressed the key.

So I am searching for a right keyboard now. Now I am settled temporarily with cherry mx red.

Once you get used to the linear feeling and the lightness of the keys it isn't too bad. It took may a day to really break them in and get used to it coming from rubberdome boards. Maybe in the future you should invest in topre which is soft and has the tactility. That is my plan since I suffer from wrist and finger RSI from time to time (wrist more so). My desk is a bit high and there really isn't anything I can do about it considering that my tray broke, and I'm gonna be moving to the University Centre apartments (which is already furnished). Still debating on either the Topre (realforce 87UW...maybe HHKB, but 45g seems a bit too light for me since I now use BS and ergo 62g clears), or hop on the Ergodox train (I would be spending almost as much with partial assembly and getting new springs to change the clears into ergoclears and get the caps).

I have a question to all you ergodox users: I don't normally rest my hands on the board or desk when I type...so should I go full hand or just classic? Does it make a huge difference?

[daerid]

Not trying to pull a TP here, but as a professional developer of 15 years now, I can say that if you want to really tackle the RSI problem, then the first thing  you need to look at is an alternate layout. I'm not talking Dvorak or Colemak or whatever. I'm talking about QWERTY. It's broken and causes your hands and fingers to move in unnatural ways.

[rowdy]

The qwerty layout was designed to make typing prose as difficult as possible by placing the most often used letters as far apart (so as not to jam the mechanical levers on the old typewriters).

I find programming is a large percentage of numbers and symbols, and my hands tend to move all over the keyboard while programming.  I dunno if Ergo Dox would help with that.

[esoomenona]

Browns are, as long as you fill them with grease.

[Hypersphere]

RSI has much more to do with your typing posture and technique than with the type of switch you are using.

[TimIsABat]

Not trying to pull a TP here, but as a professional developer of 15 years now, I can say that if you want to really tackle the RSI problem, then the first thing  you need to look at is an alternate layout. I'm not talking Dvorak or Colemak or whatever. I'm talking about QWERTY. It's broken and causes your hands and fingers to move in unnatural ways.

Which is why I switched to Colemak because it allows your hands to stay mostly within the home keys. I also like how when you learn how to use Colemak you get better at memorizing where the keys are and touch type with grace. I am now able to fully use Colemak after a couple of weeks with some speed, almost catching up to my previous speed when I used QWERTY. Using CapsLock as backspace is also a huge plus. I might get an ErgoDox sometime soon, so using that thumb key as backspace might actually be better.

Seriously though, switching to a better optimized layout will solve a lot of your RSI problems.

[JPG]

The spring is weaker, so they don't bounce back up into position as quickly.  Blacks, with the stronger spring, would bounce more quickly back up into position ready for the second tap.

Just so everyone is clear, the lighter springs of MX reds don't affect the time it takes to travel back up that much. It takes the controller longer to debounce the switch than the switch to return.

I would like to know why it takes so much time for the controller to simply detect the debounce and send the signal / how long we are talking for both?

[daerid]

I dunno if Ergo Dox would help with that.

It definitely has helped me. And I code for a living.

[Grim Fandango]

My first reaction was "go with the reds" they really require very little force to register a keystroke.

However, for me personally, with reds I bottom out on every keystroke because they are so light. A little bit of tactility like in the Cherry MX browns help my hands recognize when the keystroke is registered and I bottom out on the browns far less than I did with the reds. It might actually be this "bottoming out" that is hardest on the hands, so maybe that has to factor in there as well. O-rings can help soften the impact when bottoming out.

[TimIsABat]

My first reaction was "go with the reds" they really require very little force to register a keystroke.

However, for me personally, with reds I bottom out on every keystroke because they are so light. A little bit of tactility like in the Cherry MX browns help my hands recognize when the keystroke is registered and I bottom out on the browns far less than I did with the reds. It might actually be this "bottoming out" that is hardest on the hands, so maybe that has to factor in there as well. O-rings can help soften the impact when bottoming out.

O-rings really help a lot with the bottom out feel. Just make sure to get soft ones for your purposes. I am typing on reds with o-rings and PBT caps right now and sure is soft. It is great for when I want a break from my Model M. I really don't like the bump on the browns personally. I bottomed out anyway and they felt like an incomplete red. Once you get used to reds, the experience just gets better and better with them.