Author Topic: What makes Topre so great for typing?  (Read 24013 times)

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Offline davkol

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #50 on: Fri, 23 August 2013, 10:14:16 »
Quote from: Bro Caps
Anyways, a new set of thick PBT from imsto, lettered, is about 75 + shipping from China.

I can buy whole keyboard with thick PBT caps for that, lol.

Quote from: Bro Caps
Of blanks or lettered? Blanks yes, lettered no.

Who needs lettering anyway?

Quote from: Bro Caps
Because you can't adapt to a superior layout, doesn't mean everyone feels that way. And the Fn layer becomes natural once you get used to it.
I don't even think about it, like when shifting in a manual transmission car... you just do it.

Topre ErgoDox has been released? I haven't noticed.

Quote from: Bro Caps
Even if you do it yourself, the time investment should be worth something to you, unless you have ample time of nothing to do.

Except enthusiasts do these mods deliberately in their free time, because they're enthusiasts after all, right? I don't think non-enthusiasts care about details such as smoothness of the switch that much.
 

Offline Michael

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #51 on: Fri, 23 August 2013, 10:19:27 »
Quote from: Bro Caps
Anyways, a new set of thick PBT from imsto, lettered, is about 75 + shipping from China.

I can buy whole keyboard with thick PBT caps for that, lol.

Quote from: Bro Caps
Of blanks or lettered? Blanks yes, lettered no.

Who needs lettering anyway?

Quote from: Bro Caps
Because you can't adapt to a superior layout, doesn't mean everyone feels that way. And the Fn layer becomes natural once you get used to it.
I don't even think about it, like when shifting in a manual transmission car... you just do it.

Topre ErgoDox has been released? I haven't noticed.

Quote from: Bro Caps
Even if you do it yourself, the time investment should be worth something to you, unless you have ample time of nothing to do.

Except enthusiasts do these mods deliberately in their free time, because they're enthusiasts after all, right? I don't think non-enthusiasts care about details such as smoothness of the switch that much.


Yes, you can buy a budget board with $75.



Again - is your time valuable? Maybe it isn't, but mine is (contradicting myself here by responding to this). I'd rather have a better experience out of the box.



Who needs lettering? Not me, but a lot do.


Ergo Dox still uses MX switches. Which brings us back to my original point. And ergo dox is not an out of the box, retail keyboard which is, again, what we are talking about here. Welcome to the conversation....

Offline daerid

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #52 on: Fri, 23 August 2013, 10:20:41 »
Even if you do it yourself, the time investment should be worth something to you, unless you have ample time of nothing to do.

This bothers me. I don't think it's a good or healthy idea to quantify everything in terms of money. Money is a tool, a necessary one for existing in today's society, but it's still just a means to an end. When I put together my ErgoDox, I didn't care how much it "cost" me. In terms of what I make, the labor alone to put that thing together would've been several hundred dollars. What was more important to me was the experience, and knowing that I'd be using a board that I built. Which is worth more to me than any amount of money.

That's why we do these mods and get these boards and obsess over them. Not because how much they cost, or how much they're worth, or whatever, but because we love them. We get something more from them than any amount of money could provide.

Offline Michael

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #53 on: Fri, 23 August 2013, 10:21:54 »
Even if you do it yourself, the time investment should be worth something to you, unless you have ample time of nothing to do.

This bothers me. I don't think it's a good or healthy idea to quantify everything in terms of money. Money is a tool, a necessary one for existing in today's society, but it's still just a means to an end. When I put together my ErgoDox, I didn't care how much it "cost" me. In terms of what I make, the labor alone to put that thing together would've been several hundred dollars. What was more important to me was the experience, and knowing that I'd be using a board that I built. Which is worth more to me than any amount of money.

That's why we do these mods and get these boards and obsess over them. Not because how much they cost, or how much they're worth, or whatever, but because we love them. We get something more from them than any amount of money could provide.


But this still brings us back to my original point of - topre being better out of the box. And the necessity of having to modify MX switches to get a similar typing experience.

Offline daerid

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #54 on: Fri, 23 August 2013, 10:24:52 »
Again - is your time valuable? Maybe it isn't, but mine is (contradicting myself here by responding to this). I'd rather have a better experience out of the box.

I don't entirely think that's fair. Of course his time is valuable, to him. But what he gets from the activities he chooses to spend his time on is unique to him. You may think that spending time customizing a board is a waste of time, and because of that opt for a more complete "out of box" experience. But he probably gets a ton of enrichment/fulfillment from doing just that, and to him that's time well spent.

PS: Still <3 you Bro ;)

Offline daerid

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #55 on: Fri, 23 August 2013, 10:26:52 »
But this still brings us back to my original point of - topre being better out of the box. And the necessity of having to modify MX switches to get a similar typing experience.

This could be true depending on your point of view. Personally, I don't think MX will ever come close to Topre, no matter how much you try. The switch mechanism is just too different. Some people just really like modifying their MX boards/switches.

I agree though that if you're trying to achieve a Topre-like typing experience by altering your MX board, just stop and get a Topre. That is a waste of time.

Offline Michael

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #56 on: Fri, 23 August 2013, 10:27:32 »
Again - is your time valuable? Maybe it isn't, but mine is (contradicting myself here by responding to this). I'd rather have a better experience out of the box.

I don't entirely think that's fair. Of course his time is valuable, to him. But what he gets from the activities he chooses to spend his time on is unique to him. You may think that spending time customizing a board is a waste of time, and because of that opt for a more complete "out of box" experience. But he probably gets a ton of enrichment/fulfillment from doing just that, and to him that's time well spent.

PS: Still <3 you Bro ;)


This is obviously coming from my own perspective, and I am not pushing it on anyone. Just merely stating that I would rather be doing other more productive things :p


I used to modify my MX boards, extensively, so this is coming from my personal experience on modding and the time investment given.

Offline davkol

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #57 on: Fri, 23 August 2013, 11:23:51 »
Yes, you can buy a budget board with $75.

Budget board with thick PBT/POM keycaps.

Again - is your time valuable? Maybe it isn't, but mine is (contradicting myself here by responding to this). I'd rather have a better experience out of the box.

Irrelevant. Maybe I enjoy modding keyboards.

Who needs lettering? Not me, but a lot do.

First, it's not like lettering on dark Topre keycaps except FC660C is exactly easy to read.

Second, are those hunt'n'peckers the same people who care about differences among switches? I'm not talking about awful RD versus MX Red versus BS, but say dampened browns versus topres.

Ergo Dox still uses MX switches.

...and the point is?

layout > switches

And ergo dox is not an out of the box, retail keyboard which is, again, what we are talking about here.

You can have it assembled. Or what about Kinesis Advantage? TECK? ...?
« Last Edit: Fri, 23 August 2013, 11:25:33 by davkol »

Offline Michael

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #58 on: Fri, 23 August 2013, 11:50:43 »
Yes, you can buy a budget board with $75.

Budget board with thick PBT/POM keycaps.

Again - is your time valuable? Maybe it isn't, but mine is (contradicting myself here by responding to this). I'd rather have a better experience out of the box.

Irrelevant. Maybe I enjoy modding keyboards.

Who needs lettering? Not me, but a lot do.

First, it's not like lettering on dark Topre keycaps except FC660C is exactly easy to read.

Second, are those hunt'n'peckers the same people who care about differences among switches? I'm not talking about awful RD versus MX Red versus BS, but say dampened browns versus topres.

Ergo Dox still uses MX switches.

...and the point is?

layout > switches

And ergo dox is not an out of the box, retail keyboard which is, again, what we are talking about here.

You can have it assembled. Or what about Kinesis Advantage? TECK? ...?


1. Still a stock MX switch budget board.


2. Great for you. Most people might not.


3. Still personal preference. And I am still referring to out of the box. Out of the box topre is still a smoother typing experience out of the box. You don't have to 'dampen' it.


4. No, layout is not more important than switches. Layout is still a preference. Typing feel (switches) is the primary factor when deciding on a switch. People that are used
to your typical keyboard layout probably won't care about an ergo dox if they are happy with the current setup they are using.


5. Yeah, you can have an ergo dox assembled. So guess what the price of an ergo dox + assembly equates to? More than a stock topre. Did you miss the main point again? I think so....

Offline spiceBar

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #59 on: Fri, 23 August 2013, 13:22:47 »
And pretty much everybody codes just like you, right? I know plenty of developers who never even need to touch any of those keys. The HHKB is targeted toward the *nix crowd, the hardcore "old school" programmers who use vi/emacs/bash in the days before arrow keys existed on keyboards.

I would really like to see a poll on this. But we can't do it because we can't be sure that only programmers will answer.

I have been a programmer since 1979. I started on a TRS-80. It already had arrow keys. Four of them.

Since then, I have never programmed on any keyboard that did not have the arrow keys.

I do love the look of the HHKB and I could afford to purchase one, but I don't want it because it lacks the four most important keys that I use all the time. I would be typing on an HHKB right now if only it had these keys!

Some programmers may not need the arrows. But if you design a keyboard for programmers, you'd better not forget the arrows.

The HHKB has not been designed for programmers. For some of them, maybe, but a minority.

I think it would be closer to the truth to say that it has been designed to be "pure" and to appeal to a targeted audience. To programmers in general? Definitely not. If that's what they wanted they really screwed it up massively. How many programmers did they get by not including the arrows? A handful of "old school"? Maybe. How many programmers are they missing by not having them? Several hundreds of thousands. You know, the guys who make money coding for Windows, MacOS, Android or iOS, even Linux, using Eclipse, Visual Studio, MonoDevelop, Xcode, KDevelop and many others IDEs and who never had to use a two-keys combination to move a cursor around.

To be honest, to me the HHKB looks more like a device targeted at non-technical users. Maybe writers, journalists, people who type a lot of text and grab the mouse to move the cursor. It's hard to believe that technically savvy users would easily accept the lack of these important keys. I have actually read a few times about people who purchased the HHKB thinking that they could do without the arrows and who realized later that it was a deal breaker. Holding the Fn key down all day will definitely hurt your pinky. :)

UPDATE: See what eadams has just posted (a few minutes ago) in this thread:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47466.0
« Last Edit: Fri, 23 August 2013, 13:27:57 by spiceBar »


Offline daerid

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #61 on: Fri, 23 August 2013, 13:34:17 »
I actually agree with you on pretty much all points. One of the main reasons I got rid of my HHKB is the lack of arrows. I currently support my family by coding in visual studio full time, so I need arrows.

To me, the FC660C is a vastly superior keyboard. A small form factor, dedicated arrow keys, intuitive fn layer, Pbt caps on 45g plate mounted Topres, less than $200. The only thing the HHKB has on it is dye sub, but in practice that doesn't really matter.

Offline Michael

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #62 on: Fri, 23 August 2013, 13:39:23 »
I actually agree with you on pretty much all points. One of the main reasons I got rid of my HHKB is the lack of arrows. I currently support my family by coding in visual studio full time, so I need arrows.

To me, the FC660C is a vastly superior keyboard. A small form factor, dedicated arrow keys, intuitive fn layer, Pbt caps on 45g plate mounted Topres, less than $200. The only thing the HHKB has on it is dye sub, but in practice that doesn't really matter.


The primary reasons I disliked the FC660C was the lack of standard sized mods (no EK sets are going to work with it fully), cheap and squeaky case and the layout wasn't great (at least for me). The feel of the HHKB and the audible difference is what clinches it for me. I am not a programmer, but I know some at my work that use an HHKB (non-unix) and they don't have issues with not having dedicated arrows. To each his own, really. For me, when I need arrows, hitting the Fn is like second nature, and its just as easy for me as on a TKL board.

Offline spiceBar

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #63 on: Fri, 23 August 2013, 13:45:12 »
I'm trying hard to purchase a FC660C, but now EK does not answer my emails anymore. I live in a country that is not is their list, but the first exchange we had was positive as they told me that it was possible for them to ship my order here.

Since this first email, I cannot get in touch with them anymore. I know they have just received a batch of FC660C and I don't want to miss it.  :mad:

Offline hashbaz

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #64 on: Fri, 23 August 2013, 13:46:35 »
Surprise surprise, a Topre thread has resulted in bickering.

Offline Michael

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #65 on: Fri, 23 August 2013, 13:46:46 »
I'm trying hard to purchase a FC660C, but now EK does not answer my emails anymore. I live in a country that is not is their list, but the first exchange we had was positive as they told me that it was possible for them to ship my order here.

Since this first email, I cannot get in touch with them anymore. I know they have just received a batch of FC660C and I don't want to miss it.


I can proxy one for you for the cost of shipping. (From EK to me, from me to you)
« Last Edit: Fri, 23 August 2013, 13:52:15 by Bro Caps »

Offline Michael

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #66 on: Fri, 23 August 2013, 13:47:09 »
Surprise surprise, a Topre thread has resulted in bickering.


It's a healthy debate.

Offline jameslr

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #67 on: Fri, 23 August 2013, 13:47:13 »
The pressure curve on a piano key is in my opinion somehow similar to the one of a Topre switch.

I thought the same exact thing. Feels like a weighted piano key.
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Offline o2dazone

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #68 on: Fri, 23 August 2013, 14:11:15 »
The HHKB has not been designed for programmers. For some of them, maybe, but a minority.

I'll agree that having a dedicated arrow cluster is probably what most people are used to. But like vim, you will have a divide of people who will never touch hjkl in visual mode, and you will get people who ONLY work in vim-esque scenarios, for example the Chrome vim extension. It's all preference. You've had the opportunity to use a trash 80 before they were considered "vintage". I've only been developing for 12 years, 5 of which on an HHKB. So it's whatever were most adapted to.

As for "what makes it better", I believe that's a matter of preference. Is it worth it to you to learn a new input device for a year or two, just so you can be at the same speed you were before you switched? People value that, and feel it pays off in the long run. Others, myself included, refuse to learn colemak or dvorak layouts because they believe it only marginally increases your typing speed.

Opinions, *******s, etc.



Offline CommunistWitchDr

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #69 on: Fri, 23 August 2013, 14:18:33 »
If only they come out in ergonomic design.... split, columnar...

μTRON

Not columnar
Terrible thumb usage
Not programmable (this matters a lot, I don't only ever use my computer and use colemak, my fn layer is also very important)
Extremely short, non removable/replaceable, connecting cable
I can't seem to find a version of it with blanks or replacement caps
That number row is just awful, you split at 5 not 6
Plenty of other keys in places I don't like

I will grant that it has a fancy logo.

It's not about money (I could probably get a topre for what I paid for my edox), or dislike of the switch (haven't even touched a topre so I can say exactly nothing about that), it's just that there isn't even a topre board made in a layout usable to me. The same being the case with buckling spring. I still have other keyboards, and I can still type on them, but I like to avoid it whenever possible. I wouldn't want to buy something that's further from my ideal board than what I have.




Oh, and don't use thick pbt prices. I don't even know where that idea came from. Topre is not thick pbt (and the space isn't pbt at all), thin pbt is a much closer comparison. And the cheaper topres (anything other than realforce or hhkb, probably utron too but I'm not actually sure) have terrible lasered caps anyway. Comparing one of the cheaper topre board caps to imsto is like comparing BWU stock caps to Cherry doubleshots because they're both abs.

Offline Michael

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #70 on: Fri, 23 August 2013, 14:24:48 »




Oh, and don't use thick pbt prices. I don't even know where that idea came from. Topre is not thick pbt (and the space isn't pbt at all), thin pbt is a much closer comparison. And the cheaper topres (anything other than realforce or hhkb, probably utron too but I'm not actually sure) have terrible lasered caps anyway. Comparing one of the cheaper topre board caps to imsto is like comparing BWU stock caps to Cherry doubleshots because they're both abs.


There are plenty of thinner pbt caps out there, thinner than stock topre caps. I was mostly using that as the reference. When you get a budget board that has pbt caps, thats typically what is included.

Offline Thimplum

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #71 on: Fri, 23 August 2013, 17:26:17 »

Your argument about topre being overpriced is invalid. Here is why:


You're going to spend roughly 80-100 (maybe more) for a decent MX board. Typically, that board is not going to have PBT caps.
You will spend another maybe 80 or so on some PBT caps, depending on what type and what vendor, etc. Maybe you want
to add some springs, stickers, lube, etc. You're probably going to need someone to do that for you. So you pay to ship your stuff
to someone, do the work, ship back to you, etc.. etc... (maybe you get the point by now....)

That's going to start getting you into the range of your 45g EK RealForce, which already
comes stock with high quality PBT caps, doesn't make half the noise and is much smoother than your stock MX board. (Right now, it's about $240). A topre is just a smoother experience out
of the box. That's not personal preference, etc. They just are.

So please, stop using the price of a topre board as your argument against Topre, because it's pretty silly. If you want to use the HHKB as the point of your argument, that's understandable as
it's a niche product, with specific target audiences in mind (programmers). So your argument is still invalid on that point, as well.

Since when did PBT sets cost $80?

And what if you don't want new springs/lube/ect?

Or what if you do if yourself?

By the way, the BWU is a niche product. It's targeted at pro-gamers. If you say it's a bad board, then your argument is invalid.


Can't tell if serious, or....


Anyways, a new set of thick PBT from imsto, lettered, is about 75 + shipping from China.


I am talking about getting a similar experience out of the box. Which isn't going to happen with a budget MX board. You would need to do all
of the above to get a similar experience to a topre board, which was my point...


Even if you do it yourself, the time investment should be worth something to you, unless you have ample time of nothing to do.


BWU is a bad board, sorry, but that's my opinion on that matter. Then again, I have tried just about all cherry switches 'tuned' or not, and prefer topre.


qtan will sell you a full set for ~45

I'm not sure if you are trolling or serious...

I would never code on an HHKB. I don't know why they think that coders will love them. When I code, I need easy access to arrow keys, insert, home and end, ect,.

Not some wierd function layer.


Of blanks or lettered? Blanks yes, lettered no. I said thick imsto, which are typically higher quality and thicker. Not sure what qtan is selling. But I used that
as a general example of what a lot of people here use.


Because you can't adapt to a superior layout, doesn't mean everyone feels that way. And the Fn layer becomes natural once you get used to it.
I don't even think about it, like when shifting in a manual transmission car... you just do it.

Lettered. Look it up.

Do all topre boards come with thick IMSTO?

What makes the HHKB layout superior? It's smaller?

TP4 FOR ADMIN 2013

Offline Michael

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #72 on: Fri, 23 August 2013, 17:42:02 »


Lettered. Look it up.

Do all topre boards come with thick IMSTO?

What makes the HHKB layout superior? It's smaller?


1. His $43 PBT caps are printed, not dye subbed like stock topre PBT. His dye subbed PBT are 91.99. Nice try.


2. No, they don't come with thick imsto, they come with thicker than regular PBT. Not all PBT caps are equal in quality or feel.
    Most budget boards that have pbt, are usually thinner and not dye subbed


3. For me, yes. I prefer a compact layout, no windows key and a backspace that I don't have to stretch for.

Offline Thimplum

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #73 on: Fri, 23 August 2013, 17:56:17 »


Lettered. Look it up.

Do all topre boards come with thick IMSTO?

What makes the HHKB layout superior? It's smaller?


1. His $43 PBT caps are printed, not dye subbed like stock topre PBT. His dye subbed PBT are 91.99. Nice try.


2. No, they don't come with thick imsto, they come with thicker than regular PBT. Not all PBT caps are equal in quality or feel.
    Most budget boards that have pbt, are usually thinner and not dye subbed


3. For me, yes. I prefer a compact layout, no windows key and a backspace that I don't have to stretch for.

Ahh my mistake. What's "stock topre PBT"? Is that like stock MX ABS? For the record, the F660C isn't dysub.

TP4 FOR ADMIN 2013

Offline Michael

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #74 on: Fri, 23 August 2013, 18:00:13 »


Lettered. Look it up.

Do all topre boards come with thick IMSTO?

What makes the HHKB layout superior? It's smaller?


1. His $43 PBT caps are printed, not dye subbed like stock topre PBT. His dye subbed PBT are 91.99. Nice try.


2. No, they don't come with thick imsto, they come with thicker than regular PBT. Not all PBT caps are equal in quality or feel.
    Most budget boards that have pbt, are usually thinner and not dye subbed


3. For me, yes. I prefer a compact layout, no windows key and a backspace that I don't have to stretch for.

Ahh my mistake. What's "stock topre PBT"? Is that like stock MX ABS? For the record, the F660C isn't dysub.


Stock meaning, what comes with the board from the factory. And yes, I am aware the Leopold isn't dye subbed. Hence the price difference.
So when you take all of that into account, this brings us full circle back to my original point about peoples complaints about the price of topre boards being too expensive, invalid.
« Last Edit: Fri, 23 August 2013, 18:09:17 by Bro Caps »

Offline Glod

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #75 on: Fri, 23 August 2013, 18:09:52 »
lol my HHKB is cheap compared to all the money and time i have spent on my ergodoxes, my poker, etc. I think if you want to join into the premium keyboard club, Topre boards are probably the cheapest way to join the club.

I will say though, I do not regret putting in the time i have spent into my Cherry boards  :D

Offline Michael

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #76 on: Fri, 23 August 2013, 18:12:39 »
lol my HHKB is cheap compared to all the money and time i have spent on my ergodoxes, my poker, etc. I think if you want to join into the premium keyboard club, Topre boards are probably the cheapest way to join the club.

I will say though, I do not regret putting in the time i have spent into my Cherry boards  :D


Agree 100%. I also don't regret that time I spent on cherry boards. In the end, after all of it, I ended up liking topre the best. Twas certainly a fun experience (and pretty expensive :P )

Offline Neo.X

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #77 on: Fri, 23 August 2013, 18:13:10 »
lol my HHKB is cheap compared to all the money and time i have spent on my ergodoxes, my poker, etc. I think if you want to join into the premium keyboard club, Topre boards are probably the cheapest way to join the club.

I will say though, I do not regret putting in the time i have spent into my Cherry boards  :D

Definitely, I used to think a lot for buying a HHKB2, now compare to the Korean keyboard I own, it's a cheap one. Type-s is another story though.
All those keyboards will be lost in time....

Offline Thimplum

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #78 on: Fri, 23 August 2013, 18:15:30 »


Lettered. Look it up.

Do all topre boards come with thick IMSTO?

What makes the HHKB layout superior? It's smaller?


1. His $43 PBT caps are printed, not dye subbed like stock topre PBT. His dye subbed PBT are 91.99. Nice try.


2. No, they don't come with thick imsto, they come with thicker than regular PBT. Not all PBT caps are equal in quality or feel.
    Most budget boards that have pbt, are usually thinner and not dye subbed


3. For me, yes. I prefer a compact layout, no windows key and a backspace that I don't have to stretch for.

Ahh my mistake. What's "stock topre PBT"? Is that like stock MX ABS? For the record, the F660C isn't dysub.


Stock meaning, what comes with the board from the factory. And yes, I am aware the Leopold isn't dye subbed. Hence the price difference.
So when you take all of that into account, this brings us full circle back to my original point about peoples complaints about the price of topre boards being too expensive, invalid.

nvm
« Last Edit: Mon, 26 August 2013, 09:16:19 by Thimplum »
TP4 FOR ADMIN 2013

Offline Michael

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #79 on: Fri, 23 August 2013, 18:18:11 »


Show Image



Really dude? That's the best you can come up with? I guess providing facts for you wasn't enough. Troll.

Offline Thimplum

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #80 on: Fri, 23 August 2013, 18:19:56 »


Show Image



Really dude? That's the best you can come up with? I guess providing facts for you wasn't enough. Troll.

Yes I'm a troll. My only purpose in life is to derail threads and irritate people. tp, can I join your fan club?
TP4 FOR ADMIN 2013

Offline eth0s

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #81 on: Fri, 23 August 2013, 20:01:58 »
And pretty much everybody codes just like you, right? I know plenty of developers who never even need to touch any of those keys. The HHKB is targeted toward the *nix crowd, the hardcore "old school" programmers who use vi/emacs/bash in the days before arrow keys existed on keyboards.

I would really like to see a poll on this. But we can't do it because we can't be sure that only programmers will answer.

I have been a programmer since 1979. I started on a TRS-80. It already had arrow keys. Four of them.

Since then, I have never programmed on any keyboard that did not have the arrow keys.

I do love the look of the HHKB and I could afford to purchase one, but I don't want it because it lacks the four most important keys that I use all the time. I would be typing on an HHKB right now if only it had these keys!

Some programmers may not need the arrows. But if you design a keyboard for programmers, you'd better not forget the arrows.

The HHKB has not been designed for programmers. For some of them, maybe, but a minority.

I think it would be closer to the truth to say that it has been designed to be "pure" and to appeal to a targeted audience. To programmers in general? Definitely not. If that's what they wanted they really screwed it up massively. How many programmers did they get by not including the arrows? A handful of "old school"? Maybe. How many programmers are they missing by not having them? Several hundreds of thousands. You know, the guys who make money coding for Windows, MacOS, Android or iOS, even Linux, using Eclipse, Visual Studio, MonoDevelop, Xcode, KDevelop and many others IDEs and who never had to use a two-keys combination to move a cursor around.

To be honest, to me the HHKB looks more like a device targeted at non-technical users. Maybe writers, journalists, people who type a lot of text and grab the mouse to move the cursor. It's hard to believe that technically savvy users would easily accept the lack of these important keys. I have actually read a few times about people who purchased the HHKB thinking that they could do without the arrows and who realized later that it was a deal breaker. Holding the Fn key down all day will definitely hurt your pinky. :)

UPDATE: See what eadams has just posted (a few minutes ago) in this thread:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47466.0

Well the HHKB Pro 2 does have the four arrow keys, they just require you to press the Fn key to use them.   It seems cumbersome if you've never tried it, but it's actually better than the arrow cluster since your right hand doesn't move around as much.  You learn to do the arrows with your right hand, and it never leaves the alpha keys.  IMO, the best keyboard in the world is the HHKB Pro 2 Type-S with blank keycaps.  There is a learning curve, for sure.  It took me about two or three weeks to adapt to it, but now I type much better and much faster.  I am not a programmer, but I type a lot, and I use the arrow keys a lot as well.  I have found the FN layer arrow keys to be great, and better than the arrow cluster on a TKL or full-size keyboard.  Also the placement of the Control key and the backspace are superior as well.  If you've never tried an HHKB, you really can't comment on it, or make any kind of informed decision.  The only downside to the HHKB of course is the cost.  At around $400 (USD) the HHKB Pro 2 Type-S is no bargain.  However, it's still cheaper than a Korean Custom MX Keyboard, and feels better, even after the Korean custom keyboard has been lubed, stickered, dampened, spring swapped, and LED backlighted. 

As for ergodox, I finally got to try one out at KeyCon.  And it had been modified with 62g solid gold springs from Korea, lubed with Krytox, stickered, dampened, and kissed by a virgin (I added that last part).  And I was totally underwhelmed.  The MX keys still feel worse than Topre.  The only thing ergodox has going for it, is the layout, which may or may not be helpful to somebody suffering from RSI or carpal tunnel syndrome.  But the layout is of no benefit to anybody else, other than novelty.  In fact, IMO a variable RealForce would actually be more comfortable to a person with RSI or CTS, than the ergodox. 

Anyway, I cannot convince anybody who cannot conceive that there may be something better than a Cherry MX switch, so I won't even try.  You can see the light or stumble in the darkness.  You have free will.  Do as you want.  Just remember three things:  (1) you don't know what you don't know; (2) you don't always know what you think you know; and (3) in the end all you really know is what you want to know.
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Offline spiceBar

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #82 on: Fri, 23 August 2013, 21:16:52 »
And pretty much everybody codes just like you, right? I know plenty of developers who never even need to touch any of those keys. The HHKB is targeted toward the *nix crowd, the hardcore "old school" programmers who use vi/emacs/bash in the days before arrow keys existed on keyboards.

I would really like to see a poll on this. But we can't do it because we can't be sure that only programmers will answer.

I have been a programmer since 1979. I started on a TRS-80. It already had arrow keys. Four of them.

Since then, I have never programmed on any keyboard that did not have the arrow keys.

I do love the look of the HHKB and I could afford to purchase one, but I don't want it because it lacks the four most important keys that I use all the time. I would be typing on an HHKB right now if only it had these keys!

Some programmers may not need the arrows. But if you design a keyboard for programmers, you'd better not forget the arrows.

The HHKB has not been designed for programmers. For some of them, maybe, but a minority.

I think it would be closer to the truth to say that it has been designed to be "pure" and to appeal to a targeted audience. To programmers in general? Definitely not. If that's what they wanted they really screwed it up massively. How many programmers did they get by not including the arrows? A handful of "old school"? Maybe. How many programmers are they missing by not having them? Several hundreds of thousands. You know, the guys who make money coding for Windows, MacOS, Android or iOS, even Linux, using Eclipse, Visual Studio, MonoDevelop, Xcode, KDevelop and many others IDEs and who never had to use a two-keys combination to move a cursor around.

To be honest, to me the HHKB looks more like a device targeted at non-technical users. Maybe writers, journalists, people who type a lot of text and grab the mouse to move the cursor. It's hard to believe that technically savvy users would easily accept the lack of these important keys. I have actually read a few times about people who purchased the HHKB thinking that they could do without the arrows and who realized later that it was a deal breaker. Holding the Fn key down all day will definitely hurt your pinky. :)

UPDATE: See what eadams has just posted (a few minutes ago) in this thread:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47466.0

Well the HHKB Pro 2 does have the four arrow keys, they just require you to press the Fn key to use them.   It seems cumbersome if you've never tried it, but it's actually better than the arrow cluster since your right hand doesn't move around as much.  You learn to do the arrows with your right hand, and it never leaves the alpha keys.  IMO, the best keyboard in the world is the HHKB Pro 2 Type-S with blank keycaps.  There is a learning curve, for sure.  It took me about two or three weeks to adapt to it, but now I type much better and much faster.  I am not a programmer, but I type a lot, and I use the arrow keys a lot as well.  I have found the FN layer arrow keys to be great, and better than the arrow cluster on a TKL or full-size keyboard.  Also the placement of the Control key and the backspace are superior as well.  If you've never tried an HHKB, you really can't comment on it, or make any kind of informed decision.  The only downside to the HHKB of course is the cost.  At around $400 (USD) the HHKB Pro 2 Type-S is no bargain.  However, it's still cheaper than a Korean Custom MX Keyboard, and feels better, even after the Korean custom keyboard has been lubed, stickered, dampened, spring swapped, and LED backlighted. 

As for ergodox, I finally got to try one out at KeyCon.  And it had been modified with 62g solid gold springs from Korea, lubed with Krytox, stickered, dampened, and kissed by a virgin (I added that last part).  And I was totally underwhelmed.  The MX keys still feel worse than Topre.  The only thing ergodox has going for it, is the layout, which may or may not be helpful to somebody suffering from RSI or carpal tunnel syndrome.  But the layout is of no benefit to anybody else, other than novelty.  In fact, IMO a variable RealForce would actually be more comfortable to a person with RSI or CTS, than the ergodox. 

Anyway, I cannot convince anybody who cannot conceive that there may be something better than a Cherry MX switch, so I won't even try.  You can see the light or stumble in the darkness.  You have free will.  Do as you want.  Just remember three things:  (1) you don't know what you don't know; (2) you don't always know what you think you know; and (3) in the end all you really know is what you want to know.


I'm not sure what's your point here.

First, I love the Topre switches and I do agree that I find it hard to customize Cherry MX switches so that they feel as good. And it's just my personal opinion, and it's not like Topres are so much better than Cherry. I find them slightly better and enjoyable, but the lack of options around Topres cannot be denied (very few boards, very few available keycaps), so I wouldn't disagree either with people who prefer Cherry switches.

Second, I was pointing to the myth that the HHKB has been made for programmers. It's just a myth. You want to argue that there are more programmers out there that would prefer a keyboard without the arrow keys? Seriously?

To this you answer basically that having to press [Fn]-[Key] instead of just [Key] is superior, which not only flies in the face of common sense, but is also against the experience of many programmers who have actually tried it and came back saying that after a month they had to give up on it.

I can understand that you love your HHKB, and I would like to be able to use it for working. I don't mind the price, it's irrelevant because I spend most on my time on a keyboard. I would purchase it at $800 if I knew it was the right tool for me. But it's not, and quite a number of programmers agree (yes you will find occasionally one who disagree, that's how arguing forever on this is possible).

So I'm after a FC660C at this time, because it has 3 things I want:
- near 60%
- dedicated arrow keys
- Topre switches
But I'm currently typing on a KBT Pure Pro with lubed, silenced Cherry MX reds, and I'm not too unhappy either.

I do try different layouts that I design myself or copy from existing boards. The goal for me is to find how many keys you can remove before you start hitting a point of real discomfort. Because what I really want is the smallest possible keyboard that does not make me less productive.

I have used KeyRemap4MacBook on my Macs and AutoKey on Linux to simulate the original Poker layout for example. I simulate it on a Realforce TKL and force myself not to use the dedicated arrow keys and use the right Ctrl-Alt-App-Shift cluster instead. This works. I have also noticed that I can easily adapt to using the left Ctrl and Shift exclusively, so the right side ones can be repurposed like on the Poker. The CapsLock key is also almost irrelevant and begs to be repurposed as well, be it for Ctrl or something else.

I have simulated layouts that do not need a special Fn key for Home/End/PgUp/PgDn (I still do need them for function keys though). It's very simple actually, you can do them with Ctrl-arrow without losing much functionality. You lose some, but my experience with this is that it's easier to use than Fn-arrow (because I already have my hand on Ctrl most of the time anyway). I tell you this from experience. I actually try these layouts for weeks to get a good feel about their usability.

I always hit the point of unacceptability when I remove the dedicated arrow keys. I know it's subjective, but it confirms the opinion of a significant number of people who do a lot of programming.

I think there is a clear trend here: you may be OK with the HHKB, and you are not alone, but it has a major missing feature that turns many people off.

Now my problem is to find how to keep the arrow keys without breaking too much the balance of the rectangular alphabetic cluster (the rectangle between the backtick and the right Ctrl).

The FC660C does a big compromise to achieve that, but seems to be my best bet. I'm also eyeing the 2TU, the 22Mini and even the 22Mini-EX by Kaliet, but they are unfortunately not Topres.

Offline demik

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #83 on: Fri, 23 August 2013, 21:30:13 »
ITT: People like different stuff.
No, he’s not around. How that sound to ya? Jot it down.

Offline Wildcard

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #84 on: Fri, 23 August 2013, 22:11:34 »
"Because they're softer then Carl's sweet abs" - Meatwad

Offline daerid

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #85 on: Fri, 23 August 2013, 22:11:45 »
My original point was less about the HHKB being for programmers and more about it being for a specific type of programmer.

Offline CommunistWitchDr

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #86 on: Fri, 23 August 2013, 22:35:20 »
ITT: People like different stuff.
THIS IS NOT OK. LIKE WHAT I LIKE OR LEAVE. GOD, WHY DON'T PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THIS?

Offline dante

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #87 on: Fri, 23 August 2013, 22:56:13 »
Topre is nice but two things bother my OCD soul:

1.) Dyesub keys but ABS spacebar? WTF?
2.) Several Topre boards I've tried had rattling noisy space bars.  Granted not all have this issue; but you can't send it back to EK because they don't consider it a defect.  I know this is Geekhack and the typical response will be "awww just suck it up and lube it."  NO.  Not on a "Made in Japan" product over $200.

Offline Game Theory

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #88 on: Fri, 23 August 2013, 22:58:26 »
91u don't have rattling spacebars but it does have deadkeys depending on your OS setup:))
... he's just a poor kid from the stupid ages.
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Offline hasu

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #89 on: Sat, 24 August 2013, 00:21:15 »
Seems like late for the party, though i have one thing to say.
Variable weighted dome, FTW.

Offline KangarooZombies

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #90 on: Sat, 24 August 2013, 01:36:21 »
I really think this is a good thread for people to read through when considering the purchase of a topre board.
Having a bad day?
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Offline davkol

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #91 on: Sat, 24 August 2013, 05:17:44 »
As for ergodox, I finally got to try one out at KeyCon.  And it had been modified with 62g solid gold springs from Korea, lubed with Krytox, stickered, dampened, and kissed by a virgin (I added that last part).  And I was totally underwhelmed.  The MX keys still feel worse than Topre.  The only thing ergodox has going for it, is the layout, which may or may not be helpful to somebody suffering from RSI or carpal tunnel syndrome.  But the layout is of no benefit to anybody else, other than novelty.

That's more or less what I thought when I first tried my first symmetric keyboard. After using it for two weeks, I could type faster, with better accuracy and without any strain compared to traditional staggered layout.

The point is, if you say around here that you tried a Topre board for an hour, and it was underwhelming, Topre fanboys will start yelling that you have no right to judge Topre, unless you've used it for few weeks—happened in nearly every Topre vs. Cherry MX thread so far.

In fact, IMO a variable RealForce would actually be more comfortable to a person with RSI or CTS, than the ergodox. 

Maybe in case of arthritis.

Anyway, I cannot convince anybody who cannot conceive that there may be something better than a Cherry MX switch, so I won't even try.  You can see the light or stumble in the darkness.  You have free will.  Do as you want.  Just remember three things:  (1) you don't know what you don't know; (2) you don't always know what you think you know; and (3) in the end all you really know is what you want to know.

The question is whether differences among switches do matter. This may sound like an argument from authority, but why would Maltron still use Cherry MX Black on their keyboards, although they've invested so much into research?

Offline Polymer

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #92 on: Sat, 24 August 2013, 08:18:07 »
Topre is nice but two things bother my OCD soul:

1.) Dyesub keys but ABS spacebar? WTF?
2.) Several Topre boards I've tried had rattling noisy space bars.  Granted not all have this issue; but you can't send it back to EK because they don't consider it a defect.  I know this is Geekhack and the typical response will be "awww just suck it up and lube it."  NO.  Not on a "Made in Japan" product over $200.

I agree...They should have a PBT spacebar...it is the only thing I dislike about their keyset..

From what I've seen, the space bars will start to rattle after awhile on a lot of them...but just taking it off and putting it back on will fix that...My HHKB was rattling a bit....put the space bar back on..good for a long time...started to rattle, popped it off, made sure it was all ok and put it back on..it hasn't rattled for a long long time...I have a feelt it has something to do w/ the stabilizer but either way, pretty easy to fix..

Same w/ the RF cover issue and wobble issue...you can easily press/move it into place so it is right..the problem is the board will allow for a bit of twist and that is how it gets uneven..simply pushing all four corners down while it is on your desk will fix it...(push hard)...maybe slight twisting..either way...fixed quite a few like that (they didn't even start off like that). 

Offline Danule

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #93 on: Sat, 24 August 2013, 10:29:53 »
what I see in this thread. people who have used both either say they prefer topre or that both are good and it depends on your taste, or people who have never used topre getting mad and bashing a keyboard switch they have never used.
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Offline Sniping

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #94 on: Sat, 24 August 2013, 10:36:28 »
Part of the reason why I really like my topre is because I like how little rattle you can hear. If you have a rattly key every time you press it you can hear the rattle, and it makes the keyboard sound a bit cheap, but I get very little rattle with Topre.

Offline DamienG

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #95 on: Sat, 24 August 2013, 10:52:28 »
So I'm trying out my Topre 88UB again after about a month solid using a Cherry blue with retro caps.

I love the deep sound of the Topre, especially on larger keys. Also love the feel of the keycaps, but the tactile feel just isn't there for me - I miss that click of the Cherry.

The perfect keyboard would take the best of both of these.

Closest to that I felt was JWZ's KMac with black lubed switches, 62g gold Korean springs and Dolch keycaps.

[)amien

Offline davkol

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #96 on: Sat, 24 August 2013, 13:47:27 »
Yes, you can buy a budget board with $75.

Budget board with thick PBT/POM keycaps.

1. Still a stock MX switch budget board.

Reading comprehention failure.

Again - is your time valuable? Maybe it isn't, but mine is (contradicting myself here by responding to this). I'd rather have a better experience out of the box.

Irrelevant. Maybe I enjoy modding keyboards.

2. Great for you. Most people might not.

Reading comprehention failure.

Who needs lettering? Not me, but a lot do.

First, it's not like lettering on dark Topre keycaps except FC660C is exactly easy to read.

Second, are those hunt'n'peckers the same people who care about differences among switches? I'm not talking about awful RD versus MX Red versus BS, but say dampened browns versus topres.

3. Still personal preference. And I am still referring to out of the box. Out of the box topre is still a smoother typing experience out of the box. You don't have to 'dampen' it.

First, quite a few vendors sell keyboards with dampeners out of the box.

Second, you've provided how much data? None.

Ergo Dox still uses MX switches.

...and the point is?

layout > switches

4. No, layout is not more important than switches. Layout is still a preference. Typing feel (switches) is the primary factor when deciding on a switch. People that are used
to your typical keyboard layout probably won't care about an ergo dox if they are happy with the current setup they are using.

switch != keyboard

Again, you've provided no data to backup your claim. On the other hand, market with high-end ergonomic keyboards seems to prefer Cherry MX.

And ergo dox is not an out of the box, retail keyboard which is, again, what we are talking about here.

You can have it assembled. Or what about Kinesis Advantage? TECK? ...?

5. Yeah, you can have an ergo dox assembled. So guess what the price of an ergo dox + assembly equates to? More than a stock topre. Did you miss the main point again? I think so....

Stock realforce costs about £200 from The Keyboard Company. TECK is in the same price range from the same vendor, and so is ErgoDox including assembly via Massdrop.

what I see in this thread. people who have used both either say they prefer topre or that both are good and it depends on your taste, or people who have never used topre getting mad and bashing a keyboard switch they have never used.

Maybe you could name the people who are bashing Topre, although they haven't used it... or it would be easier to go back to fapping.

Offline chill1217

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #97 on: Sat, 24 August 2013, 17:04:36 »
I think you pay about a $50 premium to use Topre switches.  The Type Heaven is $150 for a full-size Topre without PBT keycaps, and $100 for a full size mechanical keyboard is a reasonable price.  Similarly, the Realforce is $250 with PBT keycaps, and when you deduct $50 for Topre and $100 for PBT dyesub keycaps, you arrive at that $100 price point for a mechanical keyboard again.

And I would compare the feeling of Topre to piano keys.  The way it has a firm initial pressing with a soft landing reminds me a lot of my piano.  I chose Topre purely because it generally makes less noise than other mechanical keyboards.  I enjoy the feeling of Topre more than a MX cherry brown keyboard I have, but only by a bit.  The biggest factor for me is that it makes less sound.

Offline Danule

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #98 on: Sat, 24 August 2013, 17:40:25 »
Yes, you can buy a budget board with $75.

Budget board with thick PBT/POM keycaps.

1. Still a stock MX switch budget board.

Reading comprehention failure.

Again - is your time valuable? Maybe it isn't, but mine is (contradicting myself here by responding to this). I'd rather have a better experience out of the box.

Irrelevant. Maybe I enjoy modding keyboards.

2. Great for you. Most people might not.

Reading comprehention failure.

Who needs lettering? Not me, but a lot do.

First, it's not like lettering on dark Topre keycaps except FC660C is exactly easy to read.

Second, are those hunt'n'peckers the same people who care about differences among switches? I'm not talking about awful RD versus MX Red versus BS, but say dampened browns versus topres.

3. Still personal preference. And I am still referring to out of the box. Out of the box topre is still a smoother typing experience out of the box. You don't have to 'dampen' it.

First, quite a few vendors sell keyboards with dampeners out of the box.

Second, you've provided how much data? None.

Ergo Dox still uses MX switches.

...and the point is?

layout > switches

4. No, layout is not more important than switches. Layout is still a preference. Typing feel (switches) is the primary factor when deciding on a switch. People that are used
to your typical keyboard layout probably won't care about an ergo dox if they are happy with the current setup they are using.

switch != keyboard

Again, you've provided no data to backup your claim. On the other hand, market with high-end ergonomic keyboards seems to prefer Cherry MX.

And ergo dox is not an out of the box, retail keyboard which is, again, what we are talking about here.

You can have it assembled. Or what about Kinesis Advantage? TECK? ...?

5. Yeah, you can have an ergo dox assembled. So guess what the price of an ergo dox + assembly equates to? More than a stock topre. Did you miss the main point again? I think so....

Stock realforce costs about £200 from The Keyboard Company. TECK is in the same price range from the same vendor, and so is ErgoDox including assembly via Massdrop.

what I see in this thread. people who have used both either say they prefer topre or that both are good and it depends on your taste, or people who have never used topre getting mad and bashing a keyboard switch they have never used.

Maybe you could name the people who are bashing Topre, although they haven't used it... or it would be easier to go back to fapping.

aaaand your an *******, great.
45g Brown Brown Blue

Offline Thimplum

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Re: What makes Topre so great for typing?
« Reply #99 on: Sat, 24 August 2013, 17:48:17 »
Yes, you can buy a budget board with $75.

Budget board with thick PBT/POM keycaps.

1. Still a stock MX switch budget board.

Reading comprehention failure.

Again - is your time valuable? Maybe it isn't, but mine is (contradicting myself here by responding to this). I'd rather have a better experience out of the box.

Irrelevant. Maybe I enjoy modding keyboards.

2. Great for you. Most people might not.

Reading comprehention failure.

Who needs lettering? Not me, but a lot do.

First, it's not like lettering on dark Topre keycaps except FC660C is exactly easy to read.

Second, are those hunt'n'peckers the same people who care about differences among switches? I'm not talking about awful RD versus MX Red versus BS, but say dampened browns versus topres.

3. Still personal preference. And I am still referring to out of the box. Out of the box topre is still a smoother typing experience out of the box. You don't have to 'dampen' it.

First, quite a few vendors sell keyboards with dampeners out of the box.

Second, you've provided how much data? None.

Ergo Dox still uses MX switches.

...and the point is?

layout > switches

4. No, layout is not more important than switches. Layout is still a preference. Typing feel (switches) is the primary factor when deciding on a switch. People that are used
to your typical keyboard layout probably won't care about an ergo dox if they are happy with the current setup they are using.

switch != keyboard

Again, you've provided no data to backup your claim. On the other hand, market with high-end ergonomic keyboards seems to prefer Cherry MX.

And ergo dox is not an out of the box, retail keyboard which is, again, what we are talking about here.

You can have it assembled. Or what about Kinesis Advantage? TECK? ...?

5. Yeah, you can have an ergo dox assembled. So guess what the price of an ergo dox + assembly equates to? More than a stock topre. Did you miss the main point again? I think so....

Stock realforce costs about £200 from The Keyboard Company. TECK is in the same price range from the same vendor, and so is ErgoDox including assembly via Massdrop.

what I see in this thread. people who have used both either say they prefer topre or that both are good and it depends on your taste, or people who have never used topre getting mad and bashing a keyboard switch they have never used.

Maybe you could name the people who are bashing Topre, although they haven't used it... or it would be easier to go back to fapping.

nvm
« Last Edit: Mon, 26 August 2013, 09:13:28 by Thimplum »
TP4 FOR ADMIN 2013