TKL OR 60% ?!

[stancato9]

I'm debating whether to stick with my TKL boards or pick up a 60% such as the Poker 2. Those of you with 60% boards, has there ever been a time where you were inconvenienced by, or wished you had a different layout. Thanks everyone!

[BliTzKiN]

It depends on how often you're going to be using your missing keys. Most 60% offer the missing keys when you press a certain button. If you hardly use those keys, that might not trouble you. But if you have to use them on a regular basics then it might start to get annoying having extra buttons to press

[mauri]

I've seen quite a few numpad-thingies people use with 60%

[Obakemono]

Well, i think that in general terms the TKL layout would be more easy/comfortable.

The 60% let you carry it from work or wherever to home and vice versa, also depending on what 60% might have some advantages for example when using unix-like operative systems (HHKB pro 2)

And you might just want one because you know... keyboards  it's little and cute and you have plenty of color cases for it xD

[stancato9]

It depends on how often you're going to be using your missing keys. Most 60% offer the missing keys when you press a certain button. If you hardly use those keys, that might not trouble you. But if you have to use them on a regular basics then it might start to get annoying having extra buttons to press

Well I have 3 TKL boards right now and I only use the F keys for media controls (which 60% probab;y have anyways) and I don't even touch the upper right cluster. My main concern are the arrow keys and strange layouts.

[stancato9]

And you might just want one because you know... keyboards  it's little and cute and you have plenty of color cases for it xD

I think this is why... because keyboards! The size seems like it would be nice too.

[d33p]

I bought a Poker 2 but had to sell it because I couldn't get used to the missing arrows.

I'm a web developer and I use arrows a lot when coding.

I recently order a Leopold FC660M from qtan, willing to give 60%-ish another try. This one has arrows.
I hope I'll like it !

As for the function keys, I mostly use F12 for Chrome dev tools and F2 for file renaming, so using the function layer to reach them was not an issue.

[stancato9]

I bought a Poker 2 but had to sell it because I couldn't get used to the missing arrows.

I'm a web developer and I use arrows a lot when coding.

I recently order a Leopold FC660M from qtan, willing to give 60%-ish another try. This one has arrows.
I hope I'll like it !

As for the function keys, I mostly use F12 for Chrome dev tools and F2 for file renaming, so using the function layer to reach them was not an issue.

I thought that the poker 2 had WASD as alternate arrow keys?

[Obakemono]

It have WASD (in poker II) arrows, he means dedicated arrows i guess

I bought a Poker 2 but had to sell it because I couldn't get used to the missing arrows.

I'm a web developer and I use arrows a lot when coding.

I recently order a Leopold FC660M from qtan, willing to give 60%-ish another try. This one has arrows.
I hope I'll like it !

As for the function keys, I mostly use F12 for Chrome dev tools and F2 for file renaming, so using the function layer to reach them was not an issue.

I thought that the poker 2 had WASD as alternate arrow keys?

[IvanIvanovich]

I love 60%, never miss any of the extra dedicated keys ever. But I mostly only do typing, or gaming. So all those other keys rarely get touched by me as it was. On the occasions I do need them, I have them on the Fn layer arranged as I like it on my GH60.

[mr. rampage]

If you're working in UNIX environment then 60% is probably awesome. As a programmer, 60% is wicked when I use Vi. However, when I have to use a standard IDE, I find missing the arrow keys a bit of a pain. As well as being able to quickly press "End" and "Home". When debugging, missing the F5, F6, and F8 keys aren't really a problem. FN+number works just as well.

Go for it if you have the cash.

[Binge]

60% is the best for all applications.

[CPTBadAss]

The things I miss on my Pure are the dedicated page up and down arrows. And I don't really like how the function layer handles them. Other than that, I've never had a complaint with my board.

[Dubsgalore]

60% for life

[melt]

yeah, all my current boards are 60%ers and I just ordered a RF 55g from EK and am kinda dreading picking it up as it was more of an impulse buy, that thing looks so damn gargantuan, haha.  CLUNKY.  what to do, what to do?

[stancato9]

I love 60%, never miss any of the extra dedicated keys ever. But I mostly only do typing, or gaming. So all those other keys rarely get touched by me as it was. On the occasions I do need them, I have them on the Fn layer arranged as I like it on my GH60.

Like me, I will only be using this keyboard for gaming / messaging so I think that the size would feel great on my desk. How do you go about using the arrow keys? I wouldn't need them for anything other than going through pics.  )

[stancato9]

The things I miss on my Pure are the dedicated page up and down arrows. And I don't really like how the function layer handles them. Other than that, I've never had a complaint with my board.

The dedicated arrow keys look like a really nice aspect of some 60% but I can't get around the strange lower right layout as well as the 1x1 shift key. That looks awful to me. Then again, I haven't tried it.

[MOZ]

60% > TKL.

If you want to save space, dot it the right way.

[stancato9]

60% > TKL.

If you want to save space, dot it the right way.

What's your opinion on the best 60% sub $150?

[MOZ]

I'm not a Topre guy, so I would go for GH60, for its immense flexibility and DIY nature.

[stancato9]

I'm not a Topre guy, so I would go for GH60, for its immense flexibility and DIY nature.

Do I need to deal with soldering?

[tohuvabouhou]

If you like the general design of 60% keyboards but want the arrow keys, there's always 75%! Check out the KBT Race, Noppoo Choc mini, and Keycool 84.

[GeeGee]

If you play Starcraft or do some activity where you need the function keys, you need a TKL board.
Otherwise 60% is fine.

[stancato9]

If you play Starcraft or do some activity where you need the function keys, you need a TKL board.
Otherwise 60% is fine.

The only game I play that requires extra keys is dota. Even then I rather use my Filco TKL with blues.

I'm going to be looking for a poker 2. Loving the layout.

[Badwrench]

If you play Starcraft or do some activity where you need the function keys, you need a TKL board.
Otherwise 60% is fine.

Exactly.  I have my 60% for DD, but have a TKL for the days when i feel like playing a little SC2.  I prefer having the 60% in front of me, but if you are a hoarder of custom keys, the TKL will hold more 

[stancato9]

If you play Starcraft or do some activity where you need the function keys, you need a TKL board.
Otherwise 60% is fine.

Exactly.  I have my 60% for DD, but have a TKL for the days when i feel like playing a little SC2.  I prefer having the 60% in front of me, but if you are a hoarder of custom keys, the TKL will hold more 

What's DD?

That's what I'm drawn to. The fact that the 60% would feel a lot nicer in front of me.

[Badwrench]

If you play Starcraft or do some activity where you need the function keys, you need a TKL board.
Otherwise 60% is fine.

Exactly.  I have my 60% for DD, but have a TKL for the days when i feel like playing a little SC2.  I prefer having the 60% in front of me, but if you are a hoarder of custom keys, the TKL will hold more 

What's DD?

That's what I'm drawn to. The fact that the 60% would feel a lot nicer in front of me.

Daily Driver

[stancato9]

If you play Starcraft or do some activity where you need the function keys, you need a TKL board.
Otherwise 60% is fine.

Exactly.  I have my 60% for DD, but have a TKL for the days when i feel like playing a little SC2.  I prefer having the 60% in front of me, but if you are a hoarder of custom keys, the TKL will hold more 

Oh.. makes sense. 

What's DD?

That's what I'm drawn to. The fact that the 60% would feel a lot nicer in front of me.

Daily Driver

[TimIsABat]

I use my 60% when I am on the go. Mine is really like 66% (FC660M), but when I used my poker it was my DD.  When I get a HHKB Pro 2, it is going to be my travel board and my Model M will be my home board.

[GeeGee]

I use my 60% when I am on the go. Mine is really like 66% (FC660M), but when I used my poker it was my DD.  When I get a HHKB Pro 2, it is going to be my travel board and my Model M will be my home board.

As long as you don't game/ play games which require the f keys, there is no actual reson to get a TKL to type.
A 60% board is more moblie takes up less space and has pretty much no downside for a non-gamer.

[GeeGee]

If you play Starcraft or do some activity where you need the function keys, you need a TKL board.
Otherwise 60% is fine.

The only game I play that requires extra keys is dota. Even then I rather use my Filco TKL with blues.

I'm going to be looking for a poker 2. Loving the layout.

The Poker is a great board, got one myself. GL with your future 60% board!

[stancato9]

I use my 60% when I am on the go. Mine is really like 66% (FC660M), but when I used my poker it was my DD.  When I get a HHKB Pro 2, it is going to be my travel board and my Model M will be my home board.

As long as you don't game/ play games which require the f keys, there is no actual reson to get a TKL to type.
A 60% board is more moblie takes up less space and has pretty much no downside for a non-gamer.

Now to find myself a Poker 2 Thanks!

[Grimey]

60% would be my vote.  I did the 104 -> TKL -> 75% -> 60%, and I am very much happy with here I ended up.  I am looking forward to the GH60 to add a few more keys back in without loosing the footprint though (mostly delete, home, tilde) to replace the current poker 1 at work.

[spiceBar]

Yes there must be something good about 60%, as once you have tried one for a while, even going back to a TKL feels awkward.

[terran5992]

TKL format appeals more to me

[Hypersphere]

The 60% form factor is great, but there are two problems. If you try to squeeze in arrow keys, the layout becomes non-standard, interfering with typing and making it difficult to find replacement keycaps. If you do not have dedicated arrow keys, you can preserve the standard layout for ordinary typing and easy keycap replacement, but you lose ease of navigation.

Recently, I went from a full-size to a TKL. This transition was fine. I then got interested in smaller boards and tried the Poker II, Tex Beetle, Leopold FC660M, and Keycool 84.

The Poker II has a standard layout, but no dedicated arrow keys. My productivity suffered because I use arrow keys a lot. The Tex Beetle has great build quality and an elegant appearance as well as dedicated arrow keys, but the small right-shift and non-standard z-row staggering adversely affected my typing. The Keycool 84 has dedicated arrow keys as well as F-keys, but I was not pleased with the build quality or appearance. The KC 84 looks like a jumble of keys jammed together, and the non-standard size or profile of some keys makes keycap replacement difficult.

I had the best luck with the Leopold FC660M. I did not miss the lack of dedicated F-keys, and I appreciated the dedicated arrow keys. The layout is almost standard except for a slightly shortened right-shift. However, the fact that the right-shift is non-standard and that the spacing of the mounting stems in the spacebar are non-standard makes keycap replacement a bit of a challenge.

Overall, although I like the idea of going sub-TKL, I have not found any such board to be completely satisfactory. Consequently, I have gone back to using my IBM SSK as my daily driver. It has everything I would want in a keyboard: TKL, detachable cable, dye-sub PBT keycaps, embedded numpad, excellent typing feel, agreeable sound (at least to me), and superb build quality and fit and finish.

[spiceBar]

The 60% form factor is great, but there are two problems. If you try to squeeze in arrow keys, the layout becomes non-standard, interfering with typing and making it difficult to find replacement keycaps. If you do not have dedicated arrow keys, you can preserve the standard layout for ordinary typing and easy keycap replacement, but you lose ease of navigation.

Recently, I went from a full-size to a TKL. This transition was fine. I then got interested in smaller boards and tried the Poker II, Tex Beetle, Leopold FC660M, and Keycool 84.

The Poker II has a standard layout, but no dedicated arrow keys. My productivity suffered because I use arrow keys a lot. The Tex Beetle has great build quality and an elegant appearance as well as dedicated arrow keys, but the small right-shift and non-standard z-row staggering adversely affected my typing. The Keycool 84 has dedicated arrow keys as well as F-keys, but I was not pleased with the build quality or appearance. The KC 84 looks like a jumble of keys jammed together, and the non-standard size or profile of some keys makes keycap replacement difficult.

I had the best luck with the Leopold FC660M. I did not miss the lack of dedicated F-keys, and I appreciated the dedicated arrow keys. The layout is almost standard except for a slightly shortened right-shift. However, the fact that the right-shift is non-standard and that the spacing of the mounting stems in the spacebar are non-standard makes keycap replacement a bit of a challenge.

Overall, although I like the idea of going sub-TKL, I have not found any such board to be completely satisfactory. Consequently, I have gone back to using my IBM SSK as my daily driver. It has everything I would want in a keyboard: TKL, detachable cable, dye-sub PBT keycaps, embedded numpad, excellent typing feel, agreeable sound (at least to me), and superb build quality and fit and finish.

You know, all the problems you are mentionning are the basis of my work on the new layout I have introduced in this thread:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47888.0

[stancato9]

The 60% form factor is great, but there are two problems. If you try to squeeze in arrow keys, the layout becomes non-standard, interfering with typing and making it difficult to find replacement keycaps. If you do not have dedicated arrow keys, you can preserve the standard layout for ordinary typing and easy keycap replacement, but you lose ease of navigation.

Recently, I went from a full-size to a TKL. This transition was fine. I then got interested in smaller boards and tried the Poker II, Tex Beetle, Leopold FC660M, and Keycool 84.

The Poker II has a standard layout, but no dedicated arrow keys. My productivity suffered because I use arrow keys a lot. The Tex Beetle has great build quality and an elegant appearance as well as dedicated arrow keys, but the small right-shift and non-standard z-row staggering adversely affected my typing. The Keycool 84 has dedicated arrow keys as well as F-keys, but I was not pleased with the build quality or appearance. The KC 84 looks like a jumble of keys jammed together, and the non-standard size or profile of some keys makes keycap replacement difficult.

I had the best luck with the Leopold FC660M. I did not miss the lack of dedicated F-keys, and I appreciated the dedicated arrow keys. The layout is almost standard except for a slightly shortened right-shift. However, the fact that the right-shift is non-standard and that the spacing of the mounting stems in the spacebar are non-standard makes keycap replacement a bit of a challenge.

Overall, although I like the idea of going sub-TKL, I have not found any such board to be completely satisfactory. Consequently, I have gone back to using my IBM SSK as my daily driver. It has everything I would want in a keyboard: TKL, detachable cable, dye-sub PBT keycaps, embedded numpad, excellent typing feel, agreeable sound (at least to me), and superb build quality and fit and finish.

Very informative read. Thanks for taking the time typing that out. It should help me a lot.

[lazerpointer]

Had a HHKB, and I have to say, part of the reason I sold it is because I needed the dedicated arrows and six pack for browsing. I now have lots of TKL boards and a few full size boards for when I need to work with numbers.

But um... TKL or die son!

[tototo]

I currently have TKL for both home and work. Have a poker 2 and a pure pro on the way and hope for them be replace the TKL but haev a few doubts. I went TKL to get the mouse closer and see a 60% would be even better. Though at work I make extensive use of Fn and pgup/pgdn so not sure how well a 60% will work in the end.

In general though, it feels that unix inspired software have keybindings that work well with 60% whereas more regular software relies on users having at least TKL. If you are interested in 60% it would do well to look at what software that would help making the switch by supporting the keybindings more easily available on such a board.

[nuclearsandwich]

I love the Poker II for composing and coding but wouldn't imagine using it for all but the most basic of games. Can't even see using it for Team Fortress for some reason. Maybe because I like clicky switches for games and my Poker is brown since I use it in public.

[TimIsABat]

I love the Poker II for composing and coding but wouldn't imagine using it for all but the most basic of games. Can't even see using it for Team Fortress for some reason. Maybe because I like clicky switches for games and my Poker is brown since I use it in public.

I love using my Poker and FC660M for gaming! The small form factor makes for good ergonomics with the mouse being closer to the keyboard. Also if you are on the go, the small form factor makes it perfect for on the go gaming. I rather not play games like TF2 with clicky switches because it is just so damn loud, especially in public. I actually prefer ergoclears for gaming to blues, browns, or even reds. 60% is great for gaming if you are playing a simple MOBA or a FPS. You won't need the top function keys or the arrow keys. I really love 60% boards for pretty much everything...been having no problem when it comes to gaming and typing. I do use my fullsize model m though as a house driver...just feels pimp and is a classic.

[nuclearsandwich]

You won't need the top function keys or the arrow keys.

I use the crap out of function keys in SC2 and Dota 2. To each's own.

[SquawkVFR]

You won't need the top function keys or the arrow keys.

I use the crap out of function keys in SC2 and Dota 2. To each's own.

I have only dabbled in Dota 2 (League player), just curious what you use the function keys for?  I am getting a Poker II that will probably be mostly used for League, and will relegate using my QFR for most other games - Binding of Isaac for example uses WASD and the arrow keys simultaneously.

[pixel5]

Seeksty Per-cent

[nuclearsandwich]

I have only dabbled in Dota 2 (League player), just curious what you use the fun keys for?  I am getting a Poker II that will probably be mostly used for League, and will relegate using my QFR for most other games - Binding of Isaac for example uses WASD and the arrow keys simultaneously.

I use the key layout that has spells on Q W E R and items on Z X C V with W A S D for map movement. I use the F-row for vision hotkeys, just like in SC2 but I'm a rookie Dota player so maybe I'll find I don't need them in that game.

[stancato9]

I'll update everyone when I get my Poker 2 on the switch from TKL to 60%. I've been seeing how much I use the six pack and F keys all of this past week and noticed: I only use the F1 key for dota 2, which can be remapped, and the end and home keys for internet browsing. The trade off of those keys for a more ergonomic and mobile experience seems to be well worth it.

[Hypersphere]

This evening I was able to test my Leopold FC660C for the first time, and I discovered I much prefer Topre switches to Cherry switches. Moreover, the form factor and 60%-plus layout of of the FC660C is just about ideal; I prefer it to the larger TKL and to the smaller 60% boards like the Poker II. Now, if I could just find Topre keycaps for the FC660C, I would be all set.

[TimIsABat]

You won't need the top function keys or the arrow keys.

I use the crap out of function keys in SC2 and Dota 2. To each's own.

Noticed how I said for some MOBA and FPS games. I never mentioned RTS.

[nuclearsandwich]

Noticed how I said for some MOBA and FPS games. I never mentioned RTS.

I can totally read. ^{(I totally can't read)}