Author Topic: [IC] CMYW White Legends  (Read 39704 times)

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Offline Dubsgalore

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[IC] CMYW White Legends
« on: Mon, 30 September 2013, 22:00:25 »
Just an interest check

Imagine CMYK, but with white legends, to fit Dolch, White on Black, and Handarbeit (all upcoming and soon available sets)\
so...CMYW



(lovely photo credits go to Dianoda)

Let me explain, i just want a place for others to express interest or desire, not trying to claim any original ideas or anything
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------DT---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"With some help from Ivan, This is very quickly now moving to the GB stage.

The Idea is to take the popular CMYK set and give it white legends. This would much better match Dolch sets and White on Black sets. additionally, it will match the new Dolch and upcoming handarbeit sets sold over at Originative.

Geekhack original IC: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49175.msg1060593#msg1060593



There have been some questions and concerns about the qualities of the set, most can be found in the gh thread, but I'll go over the big ones here.  The first concern that came up was:..

The Yellow
As you can see in the mockup kindly provided by Sifo (with original photo by Dianoda), The contrast is quite high and unpleasant. While it's the same yellow used in CMYK, some people were wondering about using GMK's mustard yellow..which is a little darker and in my opinion not as fitting. Photo of similar white on mustard -thanks Ivan

The final and unofficial consensus on Geekhack was and is to bite the bullet and go with the original and brighter yellow. I agree here, I think the contrast won't be terrible, and it won't be as bad as a full set, it's just two caps. 

Do you agree with using the original, brighter yellow, with the running risk of bad contrast?

The Legends
Now this is pretty much decided already but I want more opinions and thoughts. We are going to stray from the original set here. The shift arrows in the original set were that of ISO taste, they were just the arrows. With CMYW, we will go ahead with more classic Ansi Taste legends. with the arrow and 'shift' legends. that way, it won't look out of place with the classic ansi sets and the with the new originative sets as well. reasoning and thoughts are here and here. Now I realize that might not be as popular with more ISO users here, so that leads me to a question...should I provide 1x 2.75 shift in ansi legends, AND 1x2.75 in ISO legends? meaning, one (with just the arrow) to match the 1.25 shift (with just the arrow) for ISO users, and one (with arrow and 'shift') to match the 2.25 shift (with arrow and 'shift') for ANSI users? I think it would be better for all users, but add to cost. Please tell me your thoughts. the concern about 'Alt Gr' and whether or not to include it is discussed in the next section despite being a legend problem.

Do you agree with me about using all ANSI Legends (except for 1.25 shift)? Should there be a 2.75 shift using ISO shift legends to match the 1.25 iso shift?

A Profile and B Profile
With the original CMYK set, It was all B. B profile (i.e. the shift row or 'bottom row') is used for bottom row and the spacebar row on more recent cherries, and is what Sherry is doing with his Originative sets as well. Boards before 1996, Before 1.25 and windows keys were introduced, had used A Profile for the Spacebar Row, which is a bit taller then B Profile (11.15 mm versus 7.40 mm). Photo here - thanks Photekq (and credit to Litster). Now, whether or not to include 1.5 caps in A Profile. They are just 4 more caps (or 6 if Alt Gr if is included), so that will add to cost. If we are adding them, then doubling the amount of each shift is ideal, giving the set the ability to fit two keyboards (1.5 A /shifts  & 1.5 B / shifts) being used at one time. This would then add to the size and possible cost. A profile is quite enjoyable, a little harder to find but really nice. The thing is, because B is more common, and the originative sets are all in B, having just 4 keycaps in A while the rest of the board is in B would make for an out-of-place look. It would work fine with a 60% board, because the spacebar row would universally be A profile, but not on TKL or Full-Sized Boards. T

Should A Profile be included at all? Would add to the size and cost of the set, but would be A Profile!  8-)

Size of the Set
Now..the last big problem remaining..the size. Cost is very dependent on size, so while we await a reply from GMK, it's best to get together possible sizes of the set. Now, if you haven't heard, Ivan succeeded in lowering MOQ from 400 to 250.. which is fantastic. we have yet to confirm if that low 250 MOQ applies to other buyers from Deskthority and Geekhack. Ivan said he thinks it will, but let's just wait for a quote and reply. So, because 250 and 400 are two very different numbers, I think planning accordingly is smart. If it will just be 250 MOQ, then it will obviously be a lot easier, and so more variation in the set will be possible, That's just the part of the mind set needed while thinking about what to change, remove or add to the set.

Alt Gr, and whether or not to include it. Personally, I don't think we need it. I know it goes a lot better for ISO, but all and all and for the point of matching, I think it will be fine to just have Alt, and no Alt Gr. factor in including A profile and it all stacks up to a huge massive set. Here are the possibilities:

1. Maximum Caps, double shifts, yes to all the questions asked, everything included, will accommodate most, will be expensive and hard to hit.
2x WoM 1.00 Ctrl B ANSI Leg
2x WoM 1.25 Ctrl B ANSI Leg
2x WoM 1.50 Ctrl B ANSI Leg
2x WoC 1.00 Alt B ANSI Leg
2x WoC 1.25 Alt B ANSI Leg
2x WoC 1.50 Alt B ANSI Leg
1x WoC 1.00 Alt Gr B ISO Leg
1x WoC 1.25 Alt Gr B ISO Leg
1x WoC 1.50 Alt Gr B ISO Leg
2x WoM 1.00 Ctrl A ANSI Leg
2x WoM 1.50 Ctrl A ANSI Leg
2x WoC 1.00 Alt A ANSI Leg
2x WoC 1.50 Alt A ANSI Leg
1x WoC 1.00 Alt Gr A ISO Leg
1x WoC 1.50 Alt Gr A ISO Leg
2x WoY 1.25 Shift B ISO Leg
2x WoY 1.75 Shift B ANSI Leg
2x WoY 2.25 Shift B ANSI Leg
2x WoY 2.75 Shift B ANSI Leg
2x WoY 2.75 Shift B ISO Leg

2. What I'd Like to do, based on my preferences, will accommodate less, but will make MOQ easier to hit, moderate, good price, least amount of ISO love :?
2x WoM 1.00 Ctrl B ANSI Leg
2x WoM 1.25 Ctrl B ANSI Leg
2x WoM 1.50 Ctrl B ANSI Leg
2x WoC 1.00 Alt B ANSI Leg
2x WoC 1.25 Alt B ANSI Leg
2x WoC 1.50 Alt B ANSI Leg
2x WoM 1.00 Ctrl A ANSI Leg
2x WoM 1.50 Ctrl A ANSI Leg
2x WoC 1.00 Alt A ANSI Leg
2x WoC 1.50 Alt A ANSI Leg
2x WoY 1.25 Shift B ANSI ISO
2x WoY 1.75 Shift B ANSI Leg
2x WoY 2.25 Shift B ANSI Leg
2x WoY 2.75 Shift B ANSI Leg

3. Largest, will accommodate 2 separate keyboards in either ISO or ANSI at the same time, will hurt your wallet's feelings, and will be most expensive and hardest to hit.
2x WoM 1.00 Ctrl B ANSI Leg
2x WoM 1.25 Ctrl B ANSI Leg
2x WoM 1.50 Ctrl B ANSI Leg
2x WoC 1.00 Alt B ANSI Leg
2x WoC 1.25 Alt B ANSI Leg
2x WoC 1.50 Alt B ANSI Leg
1x WoC 1.00 Alt Gr B ISO Leg
1x WoC 1.25 Alt Gr B ISO Leg
1x WoC 1.50 Alt Gr B ISO Leg
2x WoM 1.00 Ctrl A ANSI Leg
2x WoM 1.50 Ctrl A ANSI Leg
2x WoC 1.00 Alt A ANSI Leg
2x WoC 1.50 Alt A ANSI Leg
1x WoC 1.00 Alt Gr A ISO Leg
1x WoC 1.50 Alt Gr A ISO Leg
2x WoY 1.25 Shift B ISO Leg
2x WoY 1.75 Shift B ANSI Leg
2x WoY 1.75 Shift B ANSI ISO
2x WoY 2.25 Shift B ANSI Leg
2x WoY 2.25 Shift B ANSI ISO
2x WoY 2.75 Shift B ANSI Leg
2x WoY 2.75 Shift B ISO Leg

4. Smallest, No A profile, easiest to hit and most similar in size to CMYK, also the cheapest
2x WoM 1.00 Ctrl B ANSI Leg
2x WoM 1.25 Ctrl B ANSI Leg
2x WoM 1.50 Ctrl B ANSI Leg
2x WoC 1.00 Alt B ANSI Leg
2x WoC 1.25 Alt B ANSI Leg
2x WoC 1.50 Alt B ANSI Leg
2x WoY 1.25 Shift B ANSI ISO
2x WoY 1.75 Shift B ANSI Leg
2x WoY 2.25 Shift B ANSI Leg
2x WoY 2.75 Shift B ANSI Leg

5. Final
2x WoM 1.00 Ctrl B ANSI Leg
2x WoM 1.25 Ctrl B ANSI Leg
2x WoM 1.50 Ctrl B ANSI Leg
2x WoC 1.00 Alt B ANSI Leg
2x WoC 1.25 Alt B ANSI Leg
2x WoC 1.50 Alt B ANSI Leg
2x WoY 1.25 Shift B ISO Leg
2x WoY 1.75 Shift B ANSI Leg
2x WoY 2.25 Shift B ANSI Leg
2x WoY 2.75 Shift B ANSI Leg
2x WoY 2.75 Shift B ISO Leg

Schedule & Updates:
1/17/14: Message Sent to GMK
1/23/14: Quotes received
1/24/14: Final set chosen and quote requested, finalizing details with international proxies and paypal


Last Words:
Please, let me know your thoughts and any advice or interest you have about it. If you think I'm wrong about something, or should change something, Please tell me. If you would enter this GB, please post and show it.

All help is appreciated :)

Dubs
« Last Edit: Fri, 24 January 2014, 20:05:26 by Dubsgalore »

Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: [IC] CMYK White Legends
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 30 September 2013, 22:01:43 »
Let's do it!

Offline sherryton

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Re: [IC] CMYK White Legends
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 30 September 2013, 22:02:13 »
White legends FTW
« Last Edit: Mon, 30 September 2013, 22:17:53 by sherryton »

Offline Dubsgalore

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Offline bazemk1979

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Re: [IC] CMYK White Legends
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 30 September 2013, 22:14:13 »
NVM off to the strip joint.
« Last Edit: Mon, 30 September 2013, 22:19:28 by bazemk1979 »
Quote from: IvanIvanovich on Wed, 08 January 2014, 18:02:50

When you bottom out dong cap... is it going balls deep?

Offline jonathanyu

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Re: [IC] CMYK White Legends
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 30 September 2013, 22:19:24 »
interested, like white legend more than black legend

Offline bazemk1979

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 30 September 2013, 22:36:23 »
interested, like white legend more than black legend
it will be white legends, Dubs forgot to change the K=black with W=white.

Btw Dubs this is what I spoke about, the x1 keys Page and Windows made in the pink Salmon color like in the picture of the Handerbeit that I'm attaching. Its the keys F5-F8, also the + key on the numberpad.

Quote from: IvanIvanovich on Wed, 08 January 2014, 18:02:50

When you bottom out dong cap... is it going balls deep?

Offline Photoelectric

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 30 September 2013, 22:40:46 »
In if you go with GMK to make them!
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Offline bazemk1979

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 30 September 2013, 22:42:25 »
In if you go with GMK to make them!
it will be GMK, here we go again Dubs put GMK in the topic area....lol

Quote from: IvanIvanovich on Wed, 08 January 2014, 18:02:50

When you bottom out dong cap... is it going balls deep?

Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 30 September 2013, 22:43:02 »
Show Image


(lovely photo credits goes to Dianoda)

That looks familiar...   ;D

And I'm in!  Very interested in this.

Offline quochung1989

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 30 September 2013, 22:48:52 »
Just interested RGB fit Dolch set. Will GMK product they? Dubs

Offline Dubsgalore

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 30 September 2013, 22:52:25 »

Just interested RGB fit Dolch set. Will GMK product they? Dubs

It would be GMK

Offline LONGZILLA

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 30 September 2013, 23:00:13 »

Just interested RGB fit Dolch set. Will GMK product they? Dubs

It would be GMK

nice

Offline MOZ

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 30 September 2013, 23:01:57 »
You have my attention.

Offline ___q

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 30 September 2013, 23:10:43 »
So much yes, I would be in for this.  Especially if it had all the options for various layouts (1.25x and 1.5x, along with all the crazy sizes of shift).

I think (correct me if I'm wrong) MOQ was hard for CMYK, and I can see CMYW being trickier to pull off MOQ for (I can imagine people not liking white-on-yellow, for instance).

But, this would look _so good_ with dolch.

Offline LechnerDE

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 01 October 2013, 03:11:52 »
Interesting!

Are you thinking of a simple 6 Key Set or a big Mod set like IvanIvanovich did?

Offline stoic-lemon

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 01 October 2013, 04:51:39 »
Sounds great, but I have one question: Will GMK be making these?


;)

Offline IvanIvanovich

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 01 October 2013, 07:44:44 »
I was already thinking to do this in the next GMK buy, along with some other smaller things.

Offline quochung1989

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 01 October 2013, 08:09:55 »
I was already thinking to do this in the next GMK buy, along with some other smaller things.

Oh. Will you open & run this GB, Ivan? I hope that ;)

Offline Dubsgalore

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #19 on: Tue, 01 October 2013, 17:34:48 »
I was already thinking to do this in the next GMK buy, along with some other smaller things.

Great to hear!

Please everyone continue to post your interest!  :)

Offline reiuorw

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #20 on: Tue, 01 October 2013, 18:23:01 »
I was already thinking to do this in the next GMK buy, along with some other smaller things.

great!

what about GMK RGB w/ white legend including 1.75x shift?

Redline sells GMK RGB w/ black legend including 1.75x shift, but when originative sold GMK RGB w/ white legend, there isn't 1.75x shift.

Offline bazemk1979

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #21 on: Tue, 01 October 2013, 19:02:57 »
I was already thinking to do this in the next GMK buy, along with some other smaller things.

great!

what about GMK RGB w/ white legend including 1.75x shift?

Redline sells GMK RGB w/ black legend including 1.75x shift, but when originative sold GMK RGB w/ white legend, there isn't 1.75x shift.

there will be IC for Handerbeit and RGBY by originative pretty soon, keep ur eyes open.
Quote from: IvanIvanovich on Wed, 08 January 2014, 18:02:50

When you bottom out dong cap... is it going balls deep?

Offline Sifo

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #22 on: Tue, 01 October 2013, 19:05:43 »


Yeah I don't know about that white on yellow.
I love Elzy

Offline Photoelectric

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #23 on: Tue, 01 October 2013, 19:15:33 »
It'd be similar to Tai Hao yellow DS caps:


(more orange than they are in person.  no issues with contrast of white on yellow).
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Offline Sifo

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #24 on: Tue, 01 October 2013, 19:16:23 »
Which has a hint of orange to it ;O
I love Elzy

Offline Photoelectric

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #25 on: Tue, 01 October 2013, 19:16:53 »
Which has a hint of orange to it ;O

I've made a note about it.  It's just how it photographed.

e: just took a new picture.  (yes, the rainbow "yellow" is actually yellow-green)

« Last Edit: Tue, 01 October 2013, 19:23:32 by Photoelectric »
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Offline moogle

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #26 on: Tue, 01 October 2013, 19:58:44 »
missed CMYK; in for CMYW

Offline Dubsgalore

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #27 on: Tue, 01 October 2013, 20:21:30 »
yeah..white on yellow  :-X
thnx for the mock up sifo

possibly a darker shade of yellow..or something else entirely..

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #28 on: Tue, 01 October 2013, 22:30:34 »
very interested...

plz legending on shift !!!

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Offline rowdy

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #29 on: Tue, 01 October 2013, 22:54:26 »
Which has a hint of orange to it ;O

I've made a note about it.  It's just how it photographed.

e: just took a new picture.  (yes, the rainbow "yellow" is actually yellow-green)

Show Image


I'll be interested to compare these to my other yellow keycaps.
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Offline JaccoW

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #30 on: Wed, 02 October 2013, 17:23:02 »
I would so jump on Handarbeit!!!
Already have CMYK but I agree, on Dolch this would look nice.
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Offline esoomenona

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #31 on: Wed, 02 October 2013, 17:28:07 »
The contrast of the white on yellow isn't good. And changing the yellow would not be cool. CMY has a certain yellow.

Also, mating these with Handarbeit wouldn't look good. There is already so much color there, and these colors don't match anything going on in that set.

That being said, if they're GMK, I will buy them.

Offline IvanIvanovich

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #32 on: Thu, 03 October 2013, 08:58:14 »
While the contrast between the white and yellow isn't ideal... it's tolerable I think for 2 keys. I definitely wouldn't want a whole set like that. I have a sample white on yellow key because I was very concerned about that.

The other way to do it, would be to have color legend on black or dark grey key. It would be more subtle style that would still fit in better with white on color and take care of the contrast problem. I was also planning to try an RGB set like that with color legend on beige and/or black keys.

Offline esoomenona

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #33 on: Thu, 03 October 2013, 09:04:17 »
I think the colored legends would be nice on black keys for sure. Darker colors for better contrast. I'd like to see how they look on beige before I pass judgment.

Offline IvanIvanovich

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #34 on: Thu, 03 October 2013, 10:26:48 »
RGB legends on beige was done quite a bit on some Alps boards back in the day like this


I think it looks pretty good like that.

Offline esoomenona

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #35 on: Thu, 03 October 2013, 10:30:41 »
It does look fairly good. It might actually look better with Cherry legends, being their they're thicker.
« Last Edit: Thu, 03 October 2013, 12:07:40 by esoomenona »

Offline sheknet

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #36 on: Thu, 03 October 2013, 12:00:29 »
Interested!

Offline Dubsgalore

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #37 on: Thu, 03 October 2013, 13:25:24 »
Of the two readily available GMK yellows, there is a mustard yellow and CMY yellow.
the mustard yellow would look horrible with CMYW, so it shouldn't be used.
The contrast could be bad, but it could turn out fine.

Offline esoomenona

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #38 on: Thu, 03 October 2013, 13:35:02 »
Would the mustard be the one that is on offer at EK? I was wondering if they were the same color as the CMY yellow or not.

Offline phetto

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #39 on: Thu, 03 October 2013, 13:37:04 »
I was already thinking to do this in the next GMK buy, along with some other smaller things.

ISO rgb shifts? :D:D

Offline Dubsgalore

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #40 on: Thu, 03 October 2013, 14:02:18 »
Would the mustard be the one that is on offer at EK? I was wondering if they were the same color as the CMY yellow or not.

I'm not 100% sure
I do have pictures of that mustard but i'll go dig them up
imagine some close to the yellow on the handarbeit spacebar

Offline esoomenona

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #41 on: Thu, 03 October 2013, 16:11:00 »
The other way to do it, would be to have color legend on black or dark grey key. It would be more subtle style that would still fit in better with white on color and take care of the contrast problem. I was also planning to try an RGB set like that with color legend on beige and/or black keys.

Aha, here is an example of the RGB on beige in Cherry font.


Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #42 on: Thu, 03 October 2013, 16:12:36 »
The other way to do it, would be to have color legend on black or dark grey key. It would be more subtle style that would still fit in better with white on color and take care of the contrast problem. I was also planning to try an RGB set like that with color legend on beige and/or black keys.

Aha, here is an example of the RGB on beige in Cherry font.

Show Image


That actually looks really good. I'd use those.

Offline Dubsgalore

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #43 on: Thu, 03 October 2013, 16:16:42 »
Personally i would not. not because it's the font, but i much prefer full red, green and blue caps. Easier to tell as well.

I think RGB sets should never touch Dolch, (all preference), so i believe that CMYW would be perfect

I really fell in love with dianoda's photo..

the reason why i don't just pick up a normal CMYK set is because

1) Black legends on dolch
2) I think CMYK looks like shieeeet on beige

that's just my opinion
RGB looks great on beige however...


Offline rowdy

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #44 on: Thu, 03 October 2013, 17:26:13 »
The other way to do it, would be to have color legend on black or dark grey key. It would be more subtle style that would still fit in better with white on color and take care of the contrast problem. I was also planning to try an RGB set like that with color legend on beige and/or black keys.

Aha, here is an example of the RGB on beige in Cherry font.

Show Image


That actually looks really good. I'd use those.

Don't they!

My Model M has a couple of modifiers coloured like that - it works.
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Offline r3dx

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #45 on: Thu, 03 October 2013, 17:36:31 »
Interested! I'm loving all of the GMK stuff coming out recently.  :D
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Offline IvanIvanovich

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #46 on: Fri, 04 October 2013, 06:16:28 »
ISO stuff will always be available in my buys when possible. At least the modifiers are not so difficult... alpha sets remains to be seen.
There are a lot of different tastes. The tricky thing is coming up with things that have a broad enough appeal that are interesting which will make the MOQ.

I just got a GMK stock color ring in (it's actually a few dozen keycaps with lasered color codes on them), don't have a camera though :(
« Last Edit: Fri, 04 October 2013, 06:19:21 by IvanIvanovich »

Offline Puddsy

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #47 on: Sat, 05 October 2013, 14:56:32 »
Interest.
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Offline Forever

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #48 on: Mon, 07 October 2013, 01:37:34 »
looks really nice

Offline aj-kun

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Re: [IC] CMYW White Legends
« Reply #49 on: Wed, 09 October 2013, 09:13:47 »
want