Author Topic: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias  (Read 12837 times)

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Offline dante

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[IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« on: Wed, 23 October 2013, 07:43:18 »
Check out ...

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=50009.0

Who's in?

I need some #'s of people who would be interested to bring to Matias for his consideration.

This will be for a pcb/plate/controller.  You supply the case, keycaps, diodes/etc, and switches.  Might be able to get it cheaper if you buy the keycaps and switches from him also.

The goal is to have something that will easily swap into Filco compatible cases.

Offline pasph

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #1 on: Wed, 23 October 2013, 08:44:26 »
IN
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Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #2 on: Wed, 23 October 2013, 08:45:04 »
Yes sir. I'm in!

Offline jdcarpe

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #3 on: Wed, 23 October 2013, 08:47:04 »
You know I'm in for this. Switches and keycaps, as well.
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Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #4 on: Wed, 23 October 2013, 08:47:49 »
Switches and keycaps, as well.

Same here as well. I want it all!!

Offline Neal

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #5 on: Wed, 23 October 2013, 10:02:23 »
possibly interested, 60% of me says WANT.

Offline jdcarpe

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #6 on: Wed, 23 October 2013, 10:03:40 »
possibly interested, 60% of me says WANT.

Nono, you're doing it wrong. This it TKL, or 80% layout. So 80% of you says WANT.
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Offline boost

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #7 on: Wed, 23 October 2013, 10:04:08 »
You know I'm in for this. Switches and keycaps, as well.

Me too!
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Offline lcs

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #8 on: Wed, 23 October 2013, 10:08:05 »
It will depend on the price, but I'd be interested for the 'full package'.

Offline Sai

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #9 on: Wed, 23 October 2013, 11:09:05 »
interested in this.
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Offline Neal

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 23 October 2013, 11:28:31 »
possibly interested, 60% of me says WANT.

Nono, you're doing it wrong. This it TKL, or 80% layout. So 80% of you says WANT.
I stand corrected. :))

Offline dante

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #11 on: Wed, 23 October 2013, 11:52:41 »
Matias has suggested a fiberglass plate as it will not require tooling and will be more quiet.  I suspect it may even be a little easier on the hands.  Any complaints with this?

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #12 on: Wed, 23 October 2013, 12:09:56 »
That's interesting for a plate material. It'll be interesting in seeing how that works/feels.

Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #13 on: Wed, 23 October 2013, 12:32:14 »
This is really interesting, and I'm interested.

Offline AKmalamute

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #14 on: Wed, 23 October 2013, 13:41:25 »
Myself, I'm hoping more for Spirit's 60% alps board ... any chance the matias folks could make some poker/ANSI 60% plates when they drum up your TKL fiberglass plates?

I've had friends suggest my ergodox case be made from all fiberglass because little to no tooling is required but I didn't think it would be stiff enough -- and the plate needs to be the stiffest of all, since that's it's one job.

 Well, and add heft but I guess if it's sufficiently inflexible I'll forgive the plate it's lack of specific gravity.

HHKB-lite2, Dvorak user

Offline MOZ

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 23 October 2013, 15:02:54 »
I'd be interested.

Offline Puddsy

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #16 on: Wed, 23 October 2013, 18:47:40 »
Interest.
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Offline Findecanor

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #17 on: Thu, 24 October 2013, 15:30:38 »
I think that a fiberglass plate would be like a PCB without any circuits ...

How about making the underlying PCB support both ANSI and ISO?

Personally, I would also like support for a few variations of vintage Apple layouts for the bottom row, so that vintage Apple keycaps could be used. Even 1.5 1.5 1.25 for Apple keycaps in PC layout.
It can be done, as evidenced by the Phantom and GH60.

Also, support for backlighting a few caps (Caps Lock etc.) through the transparent Matias switches, but I suppose that we all expected that.
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Offline nourathar

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #18 on: Thu, 24 October 2013, 15:32:54 »
certainly interested, but much more enthousiastic about metal plates than about fiberglass, but perhaps I'm just being conservative here..

Offline ovrskeek

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #19 on: Thu, 24 October 2013, 17:20:19 »
In for the full kit.

I would pay more for a metal plate.

Offline argyakrivos

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #20 on: Thu, 24 October 2013, 17:48:14 »
Definitely interested as well!

Offline Matias

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #21 on: Thu, 24 October 2013, 17:51:39 »
I think that a fiberglass plate would be like a PCB without any circuits ...

Exactly correct.  We use fiberglass when we need plates for prototypes.  It's the next best thing to steel, and is actually quieter.


How about making the underlying PCB support both ANSI and ISO?

Yes, that is part of the plan.

And if we use fiberglass for the plate, we can probably do an ISO one as well -- since no tooling is required.


Personally, I would also like support for a few variations of vintage Apple layouts for the bottom row, so that vintage Apple keycaps could be used. Even 1.5 1.5 1.25 for Apple keycaps in PC layout.
It can be done, as evidenced by the Phantom and GH60.

Yes, that should be okay.  Just need to make sure there is no interference between ALPS and Cherry pin holes.


Also, support for backlighting a few caps (Caps Lock etc.) through the transparent Matias switches, but I suppose that we all expected that.

Goes without saying.  :-)


Offline Matias

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #22 on: Thu, 24 October 2013, 18:03:04 »
Myself, I'm hoping more for Spirit's 60% alps board ... any chance the matias folks could make some poker/ANSI 60% plates when they drum up your TKL fiberglass plates?

If Spirit wants help getting fiberglass plates done, I'm happy to provide assistence.  However, I don't want to interfere with his project if he's made other arrangements.


I've had friends suggest my ergodox case be made from all fiberglass because little to no tooling is required but I didn't think it would be stiff enough -- and the plate needs to be the stiffest of all, since that's it's one job.

 Well, and add heft but I guess if it's sufficiently inflexible I'll forgive the plate it's lack of specific gravity.

It would likely work well for your case.  If you glue or bolt together 2 layers of fiberglass, it's super stiff.


Offline sprit

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #23 on: Fri, 25 October 2013, 01:46:27 »

If  I might say something on the Plates issue :

I recall , I myself have tried Steel, Stainless, Alumnium, Acrylic, Polycarbonate, PC-ABS, ABS, Polystylene, Polyester... Wooden .. plates in Recent years.  Each has its pros and cons, IMHO

I would like to say I don't know the details in every Plate project in GH, even though I have been just seeing them at times.

For my IC's,  I prepared 3 types of Plates ; No plate, Acryl plate, Alu Plate.
I excluded PolyCarbon, its too pricey to manufacturs around me,  and some personal doubts of its performance relate to Type Feelings.  I have some Industrial design Experience and now in someway involved in Moblie things with my aquintances... 
But I would like to say, I am not that into the too-Pricey materials and higher costs in small quantity productions.

What I prefer is ;   " Keep the Original materials to build a new one,  Stay Reasonable in your daily Hobbies. "
 
« Last Edit: Fri, 25 October 2013, 03:33:22 by sprit »

Offline AKmalamute

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #24 on: Fri, 25 October 2013, 04:24:41 »
If  I might say something on the Plates issue :

I recall , I myself have tried Steel, Stainless, Alumnium, Acrylic, Polycarbonate, PC-ABS, ABS, Polystylene, Polyester... Wooden .. plates in Recent years.  Each has its pros and cons, IMHO

Alright, thanks for that. When you first started you IC threads, you were I guess, too shy to mention you had cases and plates to go with the PCB you were hoping to see produced, and since I'm going with matias for my 60% I was pretty sure a "generic poker plate" wouldn't work since those would be sized for MX switches.

 Good luck to everyone on their projects ... I'm excited to be building my first keyboard this year.

HHKB-lite2, Dvorak user

Offline terran5992

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #25 on: Fri, 25 October 2013, 05:07:34 »
Hmmmmmmm alps

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Offline Matias

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #26 on: Fri, 25 October 2013, 06:11:32 »
If I might say something on the Plates issue :

I recall , I myself have tried Steel, Stainless, Alumnium, Acrylic, Polycarbonate, PC-ABS, ABS, Polystylene, Polyester... Wooden .. plates in Recent years.  Each has its pros and cons, IMHO

...

For my IC's,  I prepared 3 types of Plates ; No plate, Acryl plate, Alu Plate.
I excluded PolyCarbon, its too pricey to manufacturs around me,  and some personal doubts of its performance relate to Type Feelings.

Thank you for your insights, sprit.

My list of materials tried is much shorter than yours...  Steel, ABS, and glass fibre.  ABS was way too weak, so it did not even make it into a keyboard.

I'm going to see if we can't make the plate compatible with both ALPS and Cherry mounts.  If it works, great.  Otherwise, we'll just do the PCB to support both.


Offline sprit

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #27 on: Fri, 25 October 2013, 06:53:32 »

40927-0   40925-1

40923-2    40929-3 


http://www1.kbdmania.net/xe/photo/7538613
      사진인용 :  영휘다님 정말 감사합니다  영휘님! ...  사랑해욤~   
« Last Edit: Tue, 29 October 2013, 22:56:39 by sprit »

Offline AKIMbO

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #28 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 21:51:00 »
I'm instantly down for two kits.  If I can just drop it into a Filco chasis...oh dear jesus yes pls!
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Offline dorkvader

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #29 on: Mon, 28 October 2013, 13:22:13 »
I'd be interested for sure, with either steel or fiberglass plate.

Offline Matias

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #30 on: Tue, 29 October 2013, 05:01:06 »
Thanks for all the feedback so far.  One thing I want to ask about is the spacebar and surrounding modifier keys.

I generally favour the following...

1.5 .... 1 .... 1.5 .... 6 .... 1.5 .... 1 .... 1 .... 1.5

All the TKL that copied FILCO seem to be using this...

1.25 .... 1.25 .... 1.25 .... 6.25 .... 1.25 .... 1.25 .... 1.25 .... 1.25

What's the current thinking on 6 vs 6.25 spacebars?

Are there arguments for and against each?  Is it just inertia?  Do you guys care one way or the other?

Let me know your thoughts.  Thanks!


Offline AKmalamute

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #31 on: Tue, 29 October 2013, 11:28:06 »
I just looked at my 60% here at work, and it has a 6.25x spacebar. They make room for it by using only 1x meta keys. Honestly having a bunch of 1.25 meta keys seems pretentious to me, but I know the average keyboard I see around the office must have those.

 Actually no, it's worse. They're sort of wedge shaped because the keyboard is 1.25x tall and the winkey is trapezoidal to transition no normal height control keys.

HHKB-lite2, Dvorak user

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #32 on: Tue, 29 October 2013, 11:30:40 »
I'm used to the modern ANSI 87 key layout which has the 6.25x spacebar. Typically my knee jerk repsonse is to go with the 6.25x. I think here it should be 6.25x so the caps you guys provide can fit on sprit's 60% Alps, the Filco Zero, Duck Mini V2, Ducky 1087XM, and other future Modern ANSI Alps layouts.

Offline sprit

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #33 on: Tue, 29 October 2013, 11:48:07 »
I'm used to the modern ANSI 87 key layout which has the 6.25x spacebar. Typically my knee jerk repsonse is to go with the 6.25x. I think here it should be 6.25x so the caps you guys provide can fit on sprit's 60% Alps, the Filco Zero, Duck Mini V2, Ducky 1087XM, and other future Modern ANSI Alps layouts.

41535-0

I agree 100%  for sure!   

The bottom Row needs to embrace  101 and 104 key Layouts (ANSI = ISO  in most cases).

Supporting for the WK, WKL, Apple, HHKB  is actually an easy mission, as we seen My 60% Cherry MX PCB.

For the Alps, there is another Issue, as we terribly aware of it, space bars... stabilizers, Caps, Enter....   

My Fellow GH members!   We may find a way to make it simple,
Let's Start  from Dell, SGI, and bunch of 101, 104 first,  and  accommodate some other Variants.. within Our the Very Best.

A New GB for Keycaps might follow the PCB, in my humble Opinion.  We have enough time to fix the PCB.

I Should confess I am a new comer,  not in the tracks of You Guys,  But I feel like to say a Word : I Love You Guys, I Respect You So Much!
That's why I have Joined and Happy in GH.
« Last Edit: Tue, 29 October 2013, 22:10:01 by sprit »

Offline AKIMbO

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #34 on: Tue, 29 October 2013, 14:46:59 »
1.5 x 1 x 1.5 x 7 x 1.5 x 1 x 1.5 plus an off center stepped capslock would maintain the most compatibility with other common alps boards (Dell AT101, SGI, Focus, etc).
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Offline Matias

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #35 on: Tue, 29 October 2013, 16:46:59 »
It sounds like there's no calling for a 6x spacebar.  Is that correct?


Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #36 on: Tue, 29 October 2013, 16:50:46 »
It sounds like there's no calling for a 6x spacebar.  Is that correct?

In my opinion, yes, I don't want a 6x spacebar. :D

Offline Matias

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #37 on: Tue, 29 October 2013, 17:04:47 »
Okay, so our current plans are to do spacebars in the following sizes... 7x, 6.25x, 5.5x, 4.5x, 2.75x.

Have I got all bases covered with those?

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #38 on: Tue, 29 October 2013, 17:07:35 »
You're wild Matias. 5.5x, 4.5x and 2.75x as spacebars?? That's crazy.

As long as you got 7x and 6.25x so we can make some ANSI 87 kits, I'm happy :D.

Offline AKmalamute

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #39 on: Tue, 29 October 2013, 17:26:08 »
Okay, so our current plans are to do spacebars in the following sizes... 7x, 6.25x, 5.5x, 4.5x, 2.75x.

Have I got all bases covered with those?
hmm. 4.5x x2 = 9x ... I just tore apart a plastic case that had room for that much in the space bar department.

Now I want a keyboard with all the space bars. I can use the 2.75 blanks as meta keys.  >:D

HHKB-lite2, Dvorak user

Offline sprit

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #40 on: Tue, 29 October 2013, 22:20:22 »
Okay, so our current plans are to do spacebars in the following sizes... 7x, 6.25x, 5.5x, 4.5x, 2.75x.

Have I got all bases covered with those?

Sirs!  I may need 6.5 space bar for my precious Apple Extended's.

As we know  AEK is  1.5  1.25  1.5   6.5   1.5  1.25   1.5   = Total  15x   (Apple is one of ANSI standards, I guess)


41636-0
« Last Edit: Wed, 30 October 2013, 02:51:12 by sprit »

Offline Matias

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #41 on: Wed, 30 October 2013, 02:26:32 »

You're wild Matias. 5.5x, 4.5x and 2.75x as spacebars?? That's crazy.

As long as you got 7x and 6.25x so we can make some ANSI 87 kits, I'm happy :D.


Wish it were that simple.  :-)

Unfortunately, we have some boards with unique layout requirements...








« Last Edit: Wed, 30 October 2013, 02:30:37 by Matias »

Offline Matias

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #42 on: Wed, 30 October 2013, 02:53:07 »
Okay, the list so far appears to be...


         7x - Matias Tactile/Quiet Pro, Dell AT101, SGI, Focus, etc.

      6.5x - Apple Extended Keyboards

    6.25x - Modern ANSI layouts - Filco, Duck Mini V2, Ducky

      5.5x - Matias Laptop Pro, Mini Tactile/Quiet Pro

      4.5x - Japanese Tactile Pro, Japanese Filcos

    2.75x - Japanese Mini Tactile/Quiet Pro, Laptop Pro


Feel free to add to this if I've left anything out.

I'm currently siding with not doing 6.5x since it's only old Apple keyboards that use them.  You can do a very similar layout with 7x, or 6.25x with a bigger Ctrl key on the left side.


Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #43 on: Wed, 30 October 2013, 07:23:00 »

You're wild Matias. 5.5x, 4.5x and 2.75x as spacebars?? That's crazy.

As long as you got 7x and 6.25x so we can make some ANSI 87 kits, I'm happy :D.


Wish it were that simple.  :-)

Unfortunately, we have some boards with unique layout requirements...


Show Image




Show Image




Ooo, I never realized the Quiet Pro Mini had that exact layout. Good to know!

Okay, the list so far appears to be...


         7x - Matias Tactile/Quiet Pro, Dell AT101, SGI, Focus, etc.

      6.5x - Apple Extended Keyboards

    6.25x - Modern ANSI layouts - Filco, Duck Mini V2, Ducky

      5.5x - Matias Laptop Pro, Mini Tactile/Quiet Pro

      4.5x - Japanese Tactile Pro, Japanese Filcos

    2.75x - Japanese Mini Tactile/Quiet Pro, Laptop Pro


Feel free to add to this if I've left anything out.

I'm currently siding with not doing 6.5x since it's only old Apple keyboards that use them.  You can do a very similar layout with 7x, or 6.25x with a bigger Ctrl key on the left side.



That list looks great and I'm ok with no 6.5x as well Matias :D

Offline Matias

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #44 on: Wed, 30 October 2013, 08:30:24 »
Ooo, I never realized the Quiet Pro Mini had that exact layout. Good to know!


Yeah, gotta support that one.  The Bluetooth version is my main board.  :-)



I'm currently siding with not doing 6.5x since it's only old Apple keyboards that use them.  You can do a very similar layout with 7x, or 6.25x with a bigger Ctrl key on the left side.

That list looks great and I'm ok with no 6.5x as well Matias :D

Oh, forgot to mention... 

A side benefit of using 6.25x with a bigger Ctrl key on the left side (instead of 6.5x) is that it makes the Ctrl key the same size as Caps Lock, for anybody who wants to pull the caps and swap them.

Offline AKmalamute

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #45 on: Wed, 30 October 2013, 14:30:11 »
Quote from: Matias
A side benefit of using 6.25x with a bigger Ctrl key [...] is that it makes the Ctrl key the same size as Caps Lock, for anybody who wants to pull the caps and swap them.
+1 and well in favor of this concept.

HHKB-lite2, Dvorak user

Offline dante

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #46 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 18:55:46 »
Matias,

MechanicalKeyboards.com is interested:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=50047.msg1103951#msg1103951

Offline sprit

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #47 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 23:03:54 »
I would like to say ALPS 60%  75%  87%  Release Candidate PCBs are Ready.   
I like to add these in this PCB GB.  Cases are all compatible ~
« Last Edit: Fri, 06 December 2013, 21:55:17 by sprit »

Offline Hak Foo

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #48 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 23:39:58 »
I'd say "make it a kit".  Plate, PCB/controller, diodes, a bag of switches, and stabilizers.

Continuing with the theme, I'd suggest going for some overpack-- a few extra switches, an extra stabilizer or two, and a handful of extra  diodes-- to ensure a zero disappointment experience.

I notice when you get seven billion variations-- Round Four, anyone?-- it ends up complex and ends up with poor economies of scale and some people getting frustrated.  This also escapes a lot of "Will this support ABC?" questions because there are suitable altetrnatives provided, and a lot of "I have to go to 15 vendors for parts and pay $90 in shipping on top of it." 

My vision:  Four products:  Case, Keycap set (ANSI + ISO as a single set, internals kit with loud switches, internals kit with quiet switches.

If a main kit + case + caps comes in for less than one of those sparkly weird new Ben Franklins, I'm in for one.
« Last Edit: Wed, 06 November 2013, 23:43:51 by Hak Foo »
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Offline False_Dmitry_II

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Re: [IC] 87 Tenkeyless ANSI Alps PCB/Controller + Plate from Matias
« Reply #49 on: Wed, 19 February 2014, 02:31:21 »
So how goes this?
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Ben Franklin (11 Nov. 1755)