How do you feel about auction threads?

[Krogenar]

If CF will agree to run his lotteries at the real market price, then at least the extra money will be riding on CF's hip.

But people will still be angry they did not get one, can't afford it or dont have any. No?

Nothing will ever stop the butthurt. Jesus said, "The butthurt will always be with you." Olivia Wilde doesn't return any of my phone calls -- this is obscenely unfair and morally wrong, and yet I soldier on despite my own butthurt over it. (looks stalwart) My point is that people are confusing CF's lottery prices with the real price, the real value of the clacks -- which the after market has determined is closer to $100. If CF sold them at a higher price, a price closer to the price determined by the market, people wouldn't see them as flippable investments. Sure, some people might still then choose to flip them for $500, but that wouldn't happen often. I'm making the suggestion to try to put the bellyaching into perspective. We can either enjoy CF's altruism and accept periodic butthurt, or we can ask him to stop the generosity. It's like saying, "If you don't bring enough cupcakes for everyone in the class NO ONE GETS CUPCAKES." We can't share the joy and good luck equally, so we should abolish the joy. Or we get over our butthurt.

The real issue to me is the attitude that market transactions are (except when profitless) inherently exploitative. If there's a person who cares only about making a profit, and that person finds junked keyboards and sell them here (or anywhere) with not an altruistic bone in their body, they are helping the hobby by making those 'boards and items available, by rescuing them from oblivion. When a community is openly hostile to profit-making (as GH seems to be becoming), it's not good for the hobby or the community in my opinion.

[SpAmRaY]

Olivia Wilde doesn't return any of my phone calls.

Make sure you are using a modem!

[Neebio]

While not quite shill bidding, Cactux's bidding in some recent auction threads could be considered shill bidding by some since he's only bidding to increase the sale price, not to try and win.

There is nothing wrong with what he is doing for one important reason: if he ends up with the highest bid, he is obligated to pay that for the item.  If you notice him bidding on something he doesn't even want... let him win it.  He'll stop bidding on things he doesn't want pretty quickly if he starts winning them.  Then, if he wins the auctions and backs out since he didn't want the items in the first place, you have a basis to legitimately ignore him in any future auctions for failure to pay after winning.

Right, Cactux would "win" on an item he doesn't want, but since GH doesn't have the infrastructure (like an auction site) to enforce that negative outcome on him, who can really be sure? When fraud occurs at a site like eBay, eBay can handle the resolution.

GH has plenty of infrastructure to deal with people who back out of auctions, especially if auctions get their own sub-forum.  1st time backing out? 1 month ban from auctions sub-forum.  2nd time backing out? 1 year ban.  Simple.
Even if mods don't help out with enforcing, if other sellers know about somebody backing out of a win, they can simply ignore any bids from that person in the future.  Put simply, keep a personal ban list of people who cannot bid on your auctions.  In the event of a back-out, no real fraud happens since no money is transferred, and no item is lost.  It surely is inconvenient for the seller, since they then have to auction the item again, but there is no loss besides time.

TL;DR: If he wins something he never wanted in the first place, make him buy it.  If he doesn't, ban him from future auctions, enforced by the sellers themselves or mods.  Also, give auctions their own sub-forum!

[MKULTRA]

Just from past observations, the only place where these auctions are a problem (if you want to call it a problem) are clacks and occasionally some old group buy sets like Graphite or OG R.A.

Usually I look at an auction or keyboard that was sold and think damn that was a steal.

[ITzNybble]

Olivia Wilde doesn't return any of my phone calls.

Make sure you are using a modem!

(Attachment Link)

ohhhh Olivia Wilde........

[jdcarpe]

There seems to be a whole lot of idealism going on here.  I think there are some who need to step back and think about things realistically.

* jdcarpe Puts on reading glasses, sits in the rocking chair, and puffs from his pipe of tobacco...

My ideals of this forum and this community come not from some "fantasy world" where everything is utopia and everyone is happy. They come from MY ACTUAL FORUM EXPERIENCE IN THE MONTHS FOLLOWING MY JOINING THIS COMMUNITY. How I describe things is how the forum actually worked at that time.

Then two things happened, almost simultaneously, that changed this forum, and not for the better, in my opinion.

1. Ripster went Super Troll, and got himself banned. Not only from here, but from Deskthority as well.
2. The R00TW0RM attack brought the site down, and it was several weeks before it went live again.

After the R00TW0RM attack, some senior members decided not to return. It was from them (and others) that I obtained the guidance that shaped my ideas as to how one should conduct him/herself in this community. The loss of those members has created a void that has not been adequately filled. I will shoulder part of that blame. I allowed the laissez faire attitude now prevalent to overrule my desire to help guide how others behaved on the forum. I didn't think it was my place to do it; that I wasn't senior enough to be suggesting how others should conduct themselves. But I was wrong in that assumption. It is every member's place to do so, when they feel things are headed in the wrong direction.

The other side of the Ripster incident was that because he was banned from the two primary English-speaking keyboard enthusiast forums, he went to Reddit and started the subreddit /r/mechanicalkeyboards. Because Reddit has a large audience, all of whom can browse the subreddits, his visibility increased to a wider audience. Of course, Ripster was, and, to my admittedly limited knowledge of him, still remains obsessed with all things Geekhack, so he naturally spews forth about our forum there for his disciples/minions/readers to consume. This had the effect of increasing the visibility of Geekhack to a wider audience, as well. I'm not saying that is necessarily a bad thing, but the influx of a great number of new users in a short period of time has caused some turbulence here, with regard to how members are expected to conduct themselves.

That's how we got to this point. Where we go from here is up to us. I haven't given up on people, yet. I still believe that people can come together, talk about keyboards, and make cool new stuff, without always trying to extract money from each other's wallets.

/nostalgia

[SpAmRaY]

There seems to be a whole lot of idealism going on here.  I think there are some who need to step back and think about things realistically.

* jdcarpe Puts on reading glasses, sits in the rocking chair, and puffs from his pipe of tobacco...

My ideals of this forum and this community come not from some "fantasy world" where everything is utopia and everyone is happy. They come from MY ACTUAL FORUM EXPERIENCE IN THE MONTHS FOLLOWING MY JOINING THIS COMMUNITY. How I describe things is how the forum actually worked at that time.

Then two things happened, almost simultaneously, that changed this forum, and not for the better, in my opinion.

1. Ripster went Super Troll, and got himself banned. Not only from here, but from Deskthority as well.
2. The R00TW0RM attack brought the site down, and it was several weeks before it went live again.

After the R00TW0RM attack, some senior members decided not to return. It was from them (and others) that I obtained the guidance that shaped my ideas as to how one should conduct him/herself in this community. The loss of those members has created a void that has not been adequately filled. I will shoulder part of that blame. I allowed the laissez faire attitude now prevalent to overrule my desire to help guide how others behaved on the forum. I didn't think it was my place to do it; that I wasn't senior enough to be suggesting how others should conduct themselves. But I was wrong in that assumption. It is every member's place to do so, when they feel things are headed in the wrong direction.

The other side of the Ripster incident was that because he was banned from the two primary English-speaking keyboard enthusiast forums, he went to Reddit and started the subreddit /r/mechanicalkeyboards. Because Reddit has a large audience, all of whom can browse the subreddits, his visibility increased to a wider audience. Of course, Ripster was, and, to my admittedly limited knowledge of him, still remains obsessed with all things Geekhack, so he naturally spews forth about our forum there for his disciples/minions/readers to consume. This had the effect of increasing the visibility of Geekhack to a wider audience, as well. I'm not saying that is necessarily a bad thing, but the influx of a great number of new users in a short period of time has caused some turbulence here, with regard to how members are expected to conduct themselves.

That's how we got to this point. Where we go from here is up to us. I haven't given up on people, yet. I still believe that people can come together, talk about keyboards, and make cool new stuff, without always trying to extract money from each other's wallets.

/nostalgia

^^ That I understand. Thank you for sharing JD.

[Krogenar]

GH has plenty of infrastructure to deal with people who back out of auctions, especially if auctions get their own sub-forum.  1st time backing out? 1 month ban from auctions sub-forum.  2nd time backing out? 1 year ban.  Simple.

With respect, no I don't agree. GH doesn't have a payment system. So when I say I bought Olivia Wilde dinner on the forum, but that afterwards she refused a ride home on my lightcycle, who on GH is able to confirm that I took her to Olive Garden? Also, who wants to administrate all that? You? Not me. Meanwhile, on eBay, people are being paid to check transactions, etc. and impose punishments.

Even if mods don't help out with enforcing, if other sellers know about somebody backing out of a win, they can simply ignore any bids from that person in the future.  Put simply, keep a personal ban list of people who cannot bid on your auctions.

Possible, but still tedious. What about someone's suggestion that we announce eBay auctions here, and make them by-invitation only. You PM the person, ask for an invite and you can bid: on eBay. And if there's a problem, eBay handles it, not Geekhack. And if you feel cheated, invisibly slighted, etc. -- don't bid with that person again. And you can do so using eBay's system, as well. So when someone rages about an eBay auction, you can wonder (or say) "why not complain about them on eBay?" That would also reduce people from being gratuitously butthurt, because everyone would know that they can do something concrete about their feelings.

In the event of a back-out, no real fraud happens since no money is transferred, and no item is lost.  It surely is inconvenient for the seller, since they then have to auction the item again, but there is no loss besides time.

How do you really know that I didn't buy Olivia Wilde the 'Neverending Pasta Bowl' in an attempt to impress her? I just told you I did. That's what I mean by eBay having the proper infrastructure; they can see the money going into and out of accounts -- GH can't, and shouldn't. And they can inflict a lot more punishment than GH can. And you can't hide who you are with sock puppetry on eBay.

[Polymer]

But what we have here is someone that is keeping the prices low because he wants the community to share in the enjoyment.

The intent of keeping the prices low so the community can enjoy them instead turns into people trying to get them to try to make money off of someone else's work.

They've basically taken someone's goodwill and turned it on its head.

I am curious how you know the thoughts and intent of CC. Do not speak for someone else who has not voiced their opinion since this really exploded a year or so ago. While you may be 100% correct, It simply is not fair. (and don't paste the extremely generic comment cc made a long time ago that really does not address the issue)

John

Well originally I was going to put..his motivation for keeping prices down COULD be to create hype...but that doesn't go with what he has said in the past.  The limits, the possible bans, etc...none of that goes with anything EXCEPT what I said.  It isn't exclusive to CCs....other industries face this same problem and when the creator/owner runs into that situation they do the same thing going on with CC's.  When they don't care they'll just charge more money for their goods.  I think assuming the owner, in this case CC, is not aware enough to charge more if that is what he wanted is silly. 

If you're saying you disagree then I think that is just to make you feel better about it....and I'd wonder what your reaction would be if CC came out and said the same thing...I doubt most flippers would even care even though they might not admit it publicly.. 

[keymaster]

On the subject of buying and reselling CCs:

The one problem I see with the banning of auctions on the forum is the second-hand price some members have paid for CCs. I've noticed a pattern. A person really wants a CC being sold and is willing to outbid others even if it costs over $100. Most people who are willing to pay over $100 for a CC are also aware that they can resell it for roughly the same amount if they have to. I've seen this quite a lot with the recent jump in CC sales. The seller states that he has a CC for sale and wants to sell it for, let's say, $140 because he bought it for $140. Do you guys see the cyclical nature of the buying and reselling of these things?

Now, if auctions are banned from the site and the pricing of CCs for outrageous amounts on the forum is looked down-upon, people who've amassed a sizable collection of CCs will stand to lose A LOT of money unless they find other venues such as eBay to see the same returns on their CCs. I'm not sure what a reasonable solution would be when it comes to these individuals, but one thing is certain: something has to change.

I allowed the laissez faire attitude now prevalent to overrule my desire to help guide how others behaved on the forum. I didn't think it was my place to do it; that I wasn't senior enough to be suggesting how others should conduct themselves. But I was wrong in that assumption. It is every member's place to do so, when they feel things are headed in the wrong direction.

Thanks for pointing this out, JD. Although we are practically eye to eye on the issue on auctions, people in this thread seem to undervalue the opinion of non-senior members such as myself. Opinions should be taken into consideration in terms of what is said -- not by who said it.

The influx of new members will either help deteriorate this forum if nothing changes or help turn it around by reversing the selfish buying/selling culture that has developed. I've already seen a few active members state that their lack of activity/interest is due to the current state of the forum. At the current rate, this forum will transform into a keyboard market forum with a small sub-forum for keyboard discussion.

I, for one, am baffled by those defending the status quo. But then again, I do not have the same ethic principles as these individuals. It is up to the admin staff to act as the "supreme court" and hopefully come to the right conclusion.

[Neebio]

-- snip --

How do you really know that I didn't buy Olivia Wilde the 'Neverending Pasta Bowl' in an attempt to impress her? I just told you I did. That's what I mean by eBay having the proper infrastructure; they can see the money going into and out of accounts -- GH can't, and shouldn't. And they can inflict a lot more punishment than GH can. And you can't hide who you are with sock puppetry on eBay.

I agree with your points generally, though I just don't think it's that bad..  I'm certainly not opposed to people running auctions on ebay; using a third party service that was designed specifically for your desired need certainly can't be a bad thing.  That said, I don't think we should say that auctions don't have a place here simply because of the possibility that somebody could abuse it.  That's similar to saying a convenience store shouldn't have a 'give a penny take a penny' jar because somebody could just take all the pennies. (Do you guys have those things in the states?)

P1 TL;DR: We shouldn't get rid of something just because there is a risk that it could be abused.

About people lying as to whether they paid/shipped an item, there are two parties involved in the transaction.  It will come down to whichever party can provide proof as to their word.  Now this pretty much goes for all transactions all the time, but people should document their purchases/sales.  Keep a log of your payment confirmations, etc.  Take pictures of the item being packed, with the shipping label, shipping receipt, etc.  Use paypal invoices to request payment from a buyer.  All these things provide adequate protection for purchases and will allow a buyer or seller to adequately prove their word with regards to details of a purchase.

With that said, I think keeping a personal ban list is easy, since you are the seller, and you have the right to not sell to a person.  If you seek mod help to get somebody banned for a period of time from auctions because they backed out, you should be ready to provide proof (such as an expired paypal invoice that went unpaid) to the mods before they impose a ban.  In the event somebody tries to get you banned from auctions when you did in fact pay your invoice, you'll have paypal receipts to back that up.  In the event that the seller doesn't ship an item, or it goes missing and you can't resolve the issue with the seller and you suspect foul play, you can raise a paypal dispute.

P2+3 TL;DR: Protect yourself by keeping records of everything.  Use paypal invoices and keep receipts.  Life is good, and it's never as bad as it seems.

And as I've said before, give auctions their own sub-forum.  Even if nothing else changes, that will be a bonus I think.

[jcrouse]

.

[demik]

ITT: people protecting their investments with bull**** reasoning.

[keymaster]

ITT: people protecting their investments with bull**** reasoning.

I don't know why I bothered with the wall of texts when I could have just stated it so succinctly.

[demik]

Also, nobody here knows exactly what CC thinks so stop acting like his rep and saying **** he hasn't said himself. It's an insult to him and makes you look desperate to prove your point.

[MKULTRA]

Also, nobody here knows exactly what CC thinks so stop acting like his rep and saying **** he hasn't said himself. It's an insult to him and makes you look desperate to prove your point.

Teller of truths

[Pacifist]

Also, nobody here knows exactly what CC thinks so stop acting like his rep and saying **** he hasn't said himself. It's an insult to him and makes you look desperate to prove your point.

Teller of truths

'
In a world of lies

[TheFlyingRaccoon]

ITT: people protecting their investments with bull**** reasoning.

Also, nobody here knows exactly what CC thinks so stop acting like his rep and saying **** he hasn't said himself. It's an insult to him and makes you look desperate to prove your point.

Yup, you really are the teller of truths.

[RabRhee]

To maybe deviate slightly from the topic, I have a question. If auctions are removed completely from this site, we are aware of what benefits it will probably bring (greater simplicity, removal of a cause of friction, less scope for dishonesty) but what are likely to be the downsides of removing all auctions?

The only answers I can think of are these, but I'm wondering what others people consider:

Perhaps fewer people may frequent the boards (unlikely, but possible that some people are here only for that)
Slowing down of sales because non-auction sales are considered less exciting?
People feeing they won't get the best price so don't bother selling here at all?

While not offended personally by auctions, if there are few real penalties for removing them, perhaps they should just go. Reading through all these posts only seems to consider the debate, rather than the loss. would it be a loss? I appreciate it is hard to predict what may happen. Is it loss of a finger or an appendix?

[Photoelectric]

I don't think there will be a huge impact on the Classifieds subforum if Auctions are forbidden.  Vast majority of the sales are in normal non-auction format.  No one is going to stop selling if they can't put their items up for auction--they might just be more careful about listing their valuables.

[SpAmRaY]

I do think it's obvious geekhack ebbs and flows with sales of different things, a lot of traffic does come because of the classifieds, maybe not just auctions, and if it weren't for a lot of the drama threads there wouldn't be nearly as much traffic.

Not saying all the traffic is good neccessarily, just I remember a few times this summer when there were only like a couple of us posting for a few days in a row 

[TheFlyingRaccoon]

Perhaps fewer people may frequent the boards (unlikely, but possible that some people are here only for that)

If a member is only here to profit and take advantage of other members though auctions, then by all means they can leave.

Slowing down of sales because non-auction sales are considered less exciting?

Less exciting? You mean drama? Are you saying that drama is good for the community?

People feeling they won't get the best price so don't bother selling here at all?

This is a community, not a store. If your only intent is to make money then go to ebay. 

[absyrd]

Often drama on forums does draw more attention, replies, etc. Sorry, but it is the internet.

I'd personally like less of it, though, even if it means there "wouldn't be nearly as much traffic".

[Neebio]

If a member is only here to profit and take advantage of other members though auctions, then by all means they can leave.

I don't really understand this.  It takes two (or more) to auction.  You have a seller and buyer(s), and each must participate in order for an auction to complete.  By way of this, I don't think you can say that anybody is taken advantage of through an auction.  If you don't like an auction, don't bid.  If you don't want to pay as much as the auction has reached for an item you want, don't bid.  This isn't rocket science.  You can't be taken advantage of if you don't let yourself be taken advantage of.

[noisyturtle]

+1 for a Clack trading/selling sub forum. Half or more of the classifieds front page is clack related anyway and it makes it a pain in the ass to sift through when you just want to browse. Or have an auctions only classifieds, and a regular this way you can stipulate rules tailored to each one as opposed to making broader strokes.

[RabRhee]

Perhaps fewer people may frequent the boards (unlikely, but possible that some people are here only for that)

If a member is only here to profit and take advantage of other members though auctions, then by all means they can leave.

Slowing down of sales because non-auction sales are considered less exciting?

Less exciting? You mean drama? Are you saying that drama is good for the community?

People feeling they won't get the best price so don't bother selling here at all?

This is a community, not a store. If your only intent is to make money then go to ebay.

I personally couldn't think of a real downside to auctions being removed, that's why I posted the question. I posed those three suggestions ending with question marks to try and fathom what could be downsides. Personally I agree with what you answered to them mostly. Anyone just here for auctions is probably no loss, auction drama can cause people who have been friendly here to become bitter enemies long after the auction has ended which can be a real cost to the community. Mostly I see the drama as a net loss, even if it does bring the popcorn on. The non auction drama should still hold most the rubberneckers  here

The only part I could disagree with you on is the store part. Trade and sales are quite a strong part of this site, from vendors, group buys, classifieds, friend trades, etc., and clearly some make money. But of course auctions are a fraction of a fraction of that business and unlikely to harm it in any real way if they are removed.

[keymaster]

If a member is only here to profit and take advantage of other members though auctions, then by all means they can leave.

I don't really understand this.  It takes two (or more) to auction.  You have a seller and buyer(s), and each must participate in order for an auction to complete.  By way of this, I don't think you can say that anybody is taken advantage of through an auction.  If you don't like an auction, don't bid.  If you don't want to pay as much as the auction has reached for an item you want, don't bid.  This isn't rocket science.  You can't be taken advantage of if you don't let yourself be taken advantage of.

The bidders aren't the only parties being affected, unfortunately. Anyone who does not participate because the price has reached obnoxious proportions is affected. Thus, the entire community is taken advantage of because of a small percentage of profiteers.

[Neebio]

If a member is only here to profit and take advantage of other members though auctions, then by all means they can leave.

I don't really understand this.  It takes two (or more) to auction.  You have a seller and buyer(s), and each must participate in order for an auction to complete.  By way of this, I don't think you can say that anybody is taken advantage of through an auction.  If you don't like an auction, don't bid.  If you don't want to pay as much as the auction has reached for an item you want, don't bid.  This isn't rocket science.  You can't be taken advantage of if you don't let yourself be taken advantage of.

The bidders aren't the only parties being affected, unfortunately. Anyone who does not participate because the price has reached obnoxious proportions is affected. Thus, the entire community is taken advantage of because of a small percentage of profiteers.

I'm curious to hear how you think non-participants are affected by an auction.

Also, please explain how anybody is taken advantage of.  An auction is between a seller and buyers.  It is an organized competition requiring consent from all involved parties.  Bidders enter into the auction with an understanding that they may not win, and that in order to win they will have to outbid other bidders.  This is accepted by anybody who bids.  If an auction reaches a price that is too high for a bidder, they can simply stop bidding.  If they are not comfortable paying the price it has reached, they don't have to.  Again, this is stupid simple stuff.  No rocket science here.  Nobody is being taken advantage of.  People who pay lots for stuff in auctions are doing so because they want to.


Still my recommended first action to take: Create a sub-form in the marketplace dedicated to auctions (forum or ebay).
It would remove the bump-storm from the classifieds that auctions create, and allow for more targeted and specific moderating, overall creating a better user experience.

[Binge]

   Starting to feel this thread has no purpose other than to stir up debate.  If the points have not been said by now I think it is a moot point to pump them up much like a hillbilly working on clearing the septic tank.

Is there any chance that there will be a resolution to this concern which many have about the Geekhack Classifieds section?

[MKULTRA]

Lol a clack trading board?  Seriously?  Lets make a BroBot trading board while we're at it, and maybe a trading board for Korean boards.

[absyrd]

  Starting to feel this thread has no purpose other than to stir up debate.  If the points have not been said by now I think it is a moot point to pump them up much like a hillbilly working on clearing the septic tank.

Is there any chance that there will be a resolution to this concern which many have about the Geekhack Classifieds section?

A debate is exactly what is needed to hash this out. Without it we wouldn't come to any resolution. If the admins/mods made the change without giving ample time to discuss, even more trouble would be caused. Due diligence here, and, for me personally, I hope we do see a classified rules overhaul soon.

My opinion based upon experience with forums and the above discussions:
1. No auctions or links to ebay auctions in classifieds.
2. Pictures of items must be present along with a handwritten piece of paper with GH username and date in the pic(s).
3. 24 hour bump rule, perhaps 48.
4. Define "threadcrapping" in terms that admins/mods agree upon and enforce it strictly.

[TheFlyingRaccoon]

Lol a clack trading board?  Seriously?  Lets make a BroBot trading board while we're at it, and maybe a trading board for Korean boards.

Make one for cables too!

[Binge]

  Starting to feel this thread has no purpose other than to stir up debate.  If the points have not been said by now I think it is a moot point to pump them up much like a hillbilly working on clearing the septic tank.

Is there any chance that there will be a resolution to this concern which many have about the Geekhack Classifieds section?

A debate is exactly what is needed to hash this out. Without it we wouldn't come to any resolution. If the admins/mods made the change without giving ample time to discuss, even more trouble would be caused. Due diligence here, and, for me personally, I hope we do see a classified rules overhaul soon.

My opinion based upon experience with forums and the above discussions:
1. No auctions or links to ebay auctions in classifieds.
2. Pictures of items must be present along with a handwritten piece of paper with GH username and date in the pic(s).
3. 24 hour bump rule, perhaps 48.
4. Define "threadcrapping" in terms that admins/mods agree upon and enforce it strictly.

You're a credit to your statement.  Although debate is meant to come to a point of consensus.  Folks are using this as a platform to argue about tangents related to anything ethical or fiscal.  I'm not saying people have touched on every other subject, but either strict moderation of the proceedings should exist or a decision should be made regarding the issue based on now almost 72 hours of debate.  Either way action by the admins/mods is needed before this just turns into something they would want to lock and ignore.

[keymaster]

I'm curious to hear how you think non-participants are affected by an auction.

Also, please explain how anybody is taken advantage of.  An auction is between a seller and buyers.  It is an organized competition requiring consent from all involved parties.  Bidders enter into the auction with an understanding that they may not win, and that in order to win they will have to outbid other bidders.  This is accepted by anybody who bids.  If an auction reaches a price that is too high for a bidder, they can simply stop bidding.  If they are not comfortable paying the price it has reached, they don't have to.  Again, this is stupid simple stuff.  No rocket science here.  Nobody is being taken advantage of.  People who pay lots for stuff in auctions are doing so because they want to.

I didn't think it was necessary to explain since it's pretty obvious. You keep stating that an auction is between a seller and bidders. Yes, but if an auction takes place here and there are users who would like to purchase something for a reasonable price but an auction has put it out of their reach, then everyone who refuses to pay for an overpriced item is affected. This is especially true if it's an item in short supply. Now, please don't give me a lesson in economics because the argument has nothing to do with supply and demand. It is all about the kind of behavior and ethics we want to have in this community. Auctions are greedy and exploitative by nature and I don't believe they have any place in this community.

>Please explain how anybody is taken advantage of

Anyone who does not participate because the price has reached obnoxious proportions is affected

Further explanation: If I choose not to participate in an auction because a $50 item is now $150, how exactly am I NOT affected? I want to buy this $50 item but it's now absurdly priced at $150. I either cannot afford the $150 price tag or find it insulting for a $50 item. Furthermore, those individuals who ended up in a bidding war are also taken advantage of because they may have paid way more than they would have if the item wasn't sold via an auction.

You repeat this process over numerous auctions and...

Thus, the entire community is taken advantage of because of a small percentage of profiteers.

[Neebio]

If I choose not to participate in an auction because a $50 item is now $150, how exactly am I NOT affected?

This is absurd to me.  An auction happens and you have decided you aren't willing to bid above the other bidders since the price has gone that high.  Fine, but how are you really affected? You haven't lost anything, you haven't gained anything, and by saying you're negatively affected, all you're really doing is complaining that you didn't get your item as fast as you would have liked.

If an auction happens and the price goes above what you are willing to pay, stop bidding and wait for the item to come around again, because it eventually will.  There's probably some lesson in patience here.

You repeat this process over numerous auctions and...

I don't agree with you here either.  Auctions don't cause the average price of an item to go up or down.  That's a supply & demand issue.  World economics for the past 1000 years (at least) backs this up.

Auctions are greedy and exploitative by nature and I don't believe they have any place in this community.

Auctions are not greedy or exploitative.  They serve a purpose to sell an item that the seller may or may not have a good idea as to what the price should be, to buyers who would like to buy the item at a price which they are comfortable paying.  Seriously, there is nothing exploitative here.  If you bid, you're saying you'll pay that much.  If it's too much for you, keep it to yourself and don't bid.  Stupid simple stuff.

As for the greed bit, well, I think that's capitalism's hand in things, not necessarily auctions.  Welcome to the wonderful world we live in, where money is king and greed is good.

------

Still my recommended first action to take: Create a sub-form in the marketplace dedicated to auctions (forum or ebay).
It would remove the bump-storm from the classifieds that auctions create, and allow for more targeted and specific moderating, overall creating a better user experience.

[keymaster]

I completely disagree with almost everything you said. I won't respond to each point since the discussion on the real world market vs GH as a community has already taken place earlier in the thread. It seems we're at crossing roads here. People either see this forum as a community of people with similar interests or more of a mechanical keyboard market where one can make significant profit off other members. The ethical difference is the dividing factor.

[MKULTRA]

I completely disagree with almost everything you said. I won't respond to each point since the discussion on the real world market vs GH as a community has already taken place earlier in the thread. It seems we're at crossing roads here. People either see this forum as a community of people with similar interests or more of a mechanical keyboard market where one can make significant profit off other members. The ethical difference is the dividing factor.

This is definitely a community with people of similar interests, but I don't think it is inherently wrong for somebody to want to get the most amount of money they can for an item.

[Neebio]

I completely disagree with almost everything you said. I won't respond to each point since the discussion on the real world market vs GH as a community has already taken place earlier in the thread. It seems we're at crossing roads here. People either see this forum as a community of people with similar interests or more of a mechanical keyboard market where one can make significant profit off other members. The ethical difference is the dividing factor.

I see it as it is currently.  A community of people who enjoy keyboards and keyboard related things, with an area designated for the sale or trade of keyboard and keyboard related things.  It isn't so black and white that you can lump people into either pure community or pure marketplace.  People are here to enjoy keyboard and related things, and if there are some of those people who would like to buy/sell/trade with other members, who are you to say they can or can't do that?  Who are you to try and limit what some people are willing to pay for items they want? You talk about ethical issues due to people buying and selling, but have you even considered the ethical issues inherent in removing that ability to buy and sell?

[demik]

  Starting to feel this thread has no purpose other than to stir up debate.  If the points have not been said by now I think it is a moot point to pump them up much like a hillbilly working on clearing the septic tank.

Is there any chance that there will be a resolution to this concern which many have about the Geekhack Classifieds section?

well this is starting to be a tradition. mods make a separate thread for discussion to basically keep everybody in one place to ignore.

chances are that nothing will happen (as stated by hashbaz, imav likes to keep a hands off approach in the classifieds) even though a large majority want something to change. this will happen again when another big sale happens or somebody pisses somebody off (word to blindrage) and starts causing problems.

rinse and repeat!

[L4yercake]

x1 Novelty Keycap for Sale Subforum

x1 Auction Subforum


I dislike sifting through WTB: Clack threads

Those that do not want to see the clack fever and auctions would then have that option. Its too late to change anything with the clacks, its like that in every hobby. There is always a unique collectible that most everyone wants but can't have and thats just the way it is.

[Pacifist]

What about regular novelty caps, one that go for $3?

[L4yercake]

Expensive Novelty keycaps for Sale

Although everyone has a different opinion of what expensive is but whatever.

[dustinhxc]

Ill make this note, I dont like auctions ever. I like buy it now and trades. the end.

[demik]

stuff like this becomes a problem:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=50679.0

"highest offer" yet there is no proof.

[dustinhxc]

stuff like this becomes a problem:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=50679.0

"highest bid" yet there is no proof.

Exactly! That made me post on their topic.. I was like why do you keep changing the price? Just put a damn buy it now down....

[Melvang]

Alright guys all the points that can be made have been argued and discussed until the horse died and got beat some more.  Someone (Mods & Admins) make a decision and lets go from there.

[Polymer]

Also, nobody here knows exactly what CC thinks so stop acting like his rep and saying **** he hasn't said himself. It's an insult to him and makes you look desperate to prove your point.

I think you can have a good idea of what his intent is based on previous statements and what is being represented.  If you have another logical explanation of what he could be thinking based on what he's said in the past, the pricing/banlists, etc..why not express that?  Since no one actually can come up with one, their argument is CC isn't coming out and saying a more recent statement of what he thinks...That's not a reason but an excuse.  Not that I really think it matters to people flipping it right away.  People are going to do it regardless of what CC thinks.  As I said, you sell a 100 dollar bill for 25 dollars, people are going to go through that effort and really don't care what anyone else thinks. 

I think it is completely unrealistic to expect all people to be pro community and to give up money they could make.  It won't happen.  You don't know anyone online from anyone else..so no point in selling a CC to someone below market only to see them flip it.  I also don't think in general there is anything wrong w/ selling clacks...it is going to happen.  If you have one, enjoyed it, sold it...fair enough.  Or you needed the money, sold it..fair enough..or traded it for something else..fair enough..but when you try to buy some with no intention of keeping it...strictly just to make money off of someone else's work.....I actually could understand it more if it was a LOT of money, and maybe that makes me a bit of a hypocrite...but if you're going to sell your integrity, don't do it for a piddly amount like this...

[MKULTRA]

Expensive Novelty keycaps for Sale

Although everyone has a different opinion of what expensive is but whatever.

That is dumb.  The reason there are so many clack threads in classifieds at the moment is because there was just an EK sale.  Usually there aren't that many, or a person puts the clacks the want/are trying to trade/sell in a thread with other stuff.  Typically the classifieds is not a process of wading through a sea of clacks.

[AKIMbO]

Auctions are the bane of geekhack classifieds imo.  They should be banned as should raffles.

[MKULTRA]

Auctions are the bane of geekhack classifieds imo.  They should be banned as should raffles.

Why don't you like raffles?  Usually they donate to GH